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    Canonfire :: View topic - Wots, uh, the deal vis-a-vis the SB & Tharizdun?
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    Wots, uh, the deal vis-a-vis the SB & Tharizdun?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:49 pm  
    Wots, uh, the deal vis-a-vis the SB & Tharizdun?

    My apologies... I know this topic must have been discussed many times over, but I can't find a search function for the forums and my search of the articles brought nothing up. Maybe I'm having another Homer Simpson moment. Embarassed

    I've seen conflicting comments in the past about whether the Scarlet Brotherhood revers Big T, or if it's just a front. Can anyone point me to any sources, articles, threads, etc. on the subject?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:09 pm  

    Gary Gygax made the Tharizdun connection clear in Artifact of Evil.
    Carl Sargent carried the connection into FtA.
    Sean Reynolds didn't think ancient, eldritch evils are very interesting and wrote it off as just a rumor (OK, sorry, I'm kind of bitter about this - he didn't think the idea of a whole nation worshiping an insane deity bent the the destruction of the world was very logical).
    The LGG presented the idea of the "Black Brotherhood" (originally mentioned in I1) as a means of keeping the Tharizdun connection.
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:50 pm  

    Len Lakofka, in Dragon #88 and #89 (published in 1984), noted that Syrul and Pyremius were the patrons of the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    When Gygax began writing a novel series in which the main plot was the eternal war between Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, and Balance and the imminent release of a reality-destroying horror, he repurposed the Scarlet Brotherhood (beginning in 1986's Artifact of Evil), changing them from a group of racist monks, fighters, and thieves to a cult of devil-worshiping fanatics bent on the release of an eldritch evil who means to bring about the end of everything, because that served the plot of his books better.

    Carl Sargent followed Gygax in this. There's no indication in his design work that he ever read Lakofka's series on the Suel deities, as his interpretation of them was somewhat different from Lakofka's.

    Sean K. Reynolds turned the Scarlet Brotherhood back into a group of racist monks, fighters, and thieves who worship Syrul and Pyremius as their primary patrons, though he included bits of Tharizdun in the background.

    The LGG hedged a bit on this, adding a subfaction of Tharizdun-worshipers within a nation generally bent on mundane conquest.

    I think generally the original conception of the Scarlet Brotherhood works better in most campaigns, and Tharizdun is best used as he was in the module he originally appeared in, in the background as a long-lost, mostly forgotten deity rather than as someone everyone in a major country knows about. That is, unless you're playing a campaign based on or similar to the Gord books in which the potential release of Tharizdun is a major theme - and of course, then you can just have the Black Brotherhood take over the government. Gygax's interpretation of the Brotherhood worked well in his novels, but I think Tharizdun loses much of his impact if he's allowed to be overused or overexposed.

    The forum search can be found here (there's a link to it on the main forum page).
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:25 pm  

    Long ago, in my own AD&D campaign, I had the clerics of the Scarlet Brotherhood secretly worshipping Tharizdun as a means to increase their power as a class vis a vis the ruling monk class in the nation. Later, I realized, as Rasgon points out, that it just wasn't reasonable for a highly disciplined, Lawful organization to be worshipping a being that sought the utter destruction of existance. So, I abandoned that train of thought and left the SB priesthood as a subordinate class to the monks and let them keep what power they may through the worship of the traditional Suel deities.

    Tharizdun worship should really be left to a few insane beings. This may include some Chaotic Evil Outsiders and some mortals who are so depressed/destitute as a result of their circumstances that they are willing to see all existance destroyed in order to end their own suffering. But, those two examples probably also qualify as insane. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:50 am  

    rasgon wrote:

    I think generally the original conception of the Scarlet Brotherhood works better in most campaigns, and Tharizdun is best used as he was in the module he originally appeared in, in the background as a long-lost, mostly forgotten deity rather than as someone everyone in a major country knows about.

    I agree that a little Tharizdun goes a long way. The last two Gord novels were pretty over-the-top and suffered as a result of Tharizdun's overuse and direct intervention....however, I think Gygax's work can be added to Lakofka's without conflict or lack of subtlety.

    Quote:
    Gygax repurposed the Scarlet Brotherhood (beginning in 1986's Artifact of Evil), changing them from a group of racist monks, fighters, and thieves to a cult of devil-worshiping fanatics bent on the release of an eldritch evil...

    Gygax had already made the Brotherhood's absolute devotion to evil explicitly clear going back as far as the Folio. With legions of humanoids, monsters, thieves, monks, and assassins (not fighters) planning to conquer the world, devil worship isn't much of a stretch. The country may have got a "lawful-neutral" stamp in the '83 box, but that doesn't change the text.

    Lakofka makes it clear that Syrul and Pyremius are more involved with the SB than any of the other Suel gods, but he doesn't go further than that.

    When Gygax further describes the hierarchy of "chaotic-minded" thieves, NE assassins, and lawful monks on AoE p50, it reads like he's fleshing out what he wrote in the Folio, not reappropriating anything.

    Worshiping Tharizdun may be folly, but it doesn't make the SB leaders necessarily insane: "Perhaps they see that even total Evil must have some structure and look to form it. I know not. Whatever their reasoning or rationale, they have labored in darkness to bring forth this malign thing" (AoE 51). This certainly sounds like the kind of "embracing evil" mentioned in the Folio!

    SirXaris wrote:
    Later, I realized, as Rasgon points out, that it just wasn't reasonable for a highly disciplined, Lawful organization to be worshipping a being that sought the utter destruction of existance.

    It's not illogical at all. No matter how terrible or insane something is, people always think they can control it and benefit themselves. The U.S. and Russia stockpiled enough "artifacts" to destroy life on the planet and create an eternal winter; the Scarlet Brotherhood is part of a behind-the-scenes arms race for the Theopart which will bring eternal darkness. Some leaders of the Scarlet Brotherhood worship an insane god of bent on destruction; some of our leaders worship an invisible man who really cares about what people do with their buttholes. The Germans were disciplined and lawful, yet Goebbles convinced them that Total War was a good idea; the U.S. is full of good people, but we've been at war for half a century. The bulk of the Tilvanot people are roped into this scheme like anyone else: through propaganda and fear, the desire for security and dignity, and, mainly, because they don't really know what's going on.

    The first rule of improvisation is "never say no." This is a good rule for any kind of creative collaboration and there's no need to turn back the clock and ignore what Gygax wrote (at least not the first few books anyway). Most adventurers will find the Scarlet Brotherhood to be as Lakofka depicted them - sensible, albeit evil/racist/world-conquering, people who worship their cultural gods. Behind all of that, there are wheels within wheels and the upper echelons are meddling with ancient evils, as Greyhawk bad guys are wont to do.

    Finally, to add one more GH source to the list, Tomb of Horrors by Keith Strohm features a SB monk participating in a plot to reawaken Tharizdun. This was published after the LGG and seems to take place in 595 CY (ten years after Homer was freed from Dorakaa).
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:31 am  

    In the Gord books, the Scarlet Brotherhood were primarily devil-worshippers; they were only serving Tharizdun because the hierarchy of the Hells had decided to invest its resources into setting Tharizdun free. Of course, Tharizdun himself was different in the Gord novels than he was in other sources, being more of a god of all evil than a god of entropy and destruction, which were the domain of Master Entropy instead.

    While it's certainly probable that Syrul and Pyremius aren't the SB's only gods, Lakofka's articles did make them out to be their primary patrons, which would suggest that Tharizdun was second-tier at best.

    I think having the Brotherhood as a nation of Tharizdun cultists is workable in a campaign, but my own preference is for the Dark God to be a forgotten, slumbering evil rather than the patron of a major nation.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:27 am  

    It's implied in the LG gazeteer that the schism within the Scarlet Brotherhood that leads to civil war in the Hold of the Sea Princes involves the Black Brotherhood. The BB features in some of the LG modules too I think.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 3:11 pm  

    Rasgon has the Folio/Gord books treatment down perfectly. The Black Brotherhood is only a weak cult, and prior to "The Scarlet Brotherhood", it didn't refer to a Tharizdun Cult at all, and is just a mere mention in the module I4: Dwellers of the Forbidden City:
    Quote:
    "Many important people have been disappearing from the courts of nearby lands. The people are being kidnapped by the Black Brotherhood (a secret group the DM must create) and given to the yuan ti for safekeeping. The Brotherhood wants to help the yuan ti by weakening the power of the surrounding kingdoms. First the characters must discover who is doing the kidnapping, and then trace the kidnappers to the yuan ti. A group of the Black Brotherhood would be based in the city. The prisoners would be hard to find, for they are scattered throughout the city. Some might be easy to rescue, while others might be very difficult to rescue."

    That's it. That is the genesis of the The Black Brotherhood. It is amusing that so many people have tied the Black Brotherhood to Tharizdun prior to any mention of it in a published source. That probably has much to do with all of the "blackness" in the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun, and the lack of information on that dark god. Happy It is certainly the reason why I turned The Black Brotherhood into a Tharizdun cult nearly a decade before any published information did likewise, and worked out why a cult of such curtailed power could even attempt to flourish. I even made them a splinter group of the Scarlet Brotherhood, though I will credit that to the similarity in the groups' names, and to the location of the I4 in Hepmonaland. It makes sense and it works, even it is is a little bit too convenient. Wink
    In my campaign, I have treated Tharizdun as the slumbering evil that he is. But...clerics of Tharizdun have only basic devotional powers(1st & 2nd level spells) outside of grand temples(such as the temple in WG 4: The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun) where they have increased powers(up to 4th level spells), and only clerics in physical possession of a relic/artifact of Tharizdun can access greater powers(up to 6th level spells). The most powerful of spells(7th level, or greater if you use such) are simply unavailable to them, due to the imprisonment of their god. So, the Black Brotherhood seeks mainly to gain political power however it can, find lost temples, find artifacts of Tharizdun, and even build/create new temples and artifacts(no easy feat to be sure, and likely taking multiple lifetimes to accomplish), all so as to increase their power. Later published material, namely SKRs The Scarlet Brotherhood, ramps things up hugely, locating what would likely be the pinnacle of the movement in the land of Shar.
    To answer the original post, the Scarlet Brotherhood does not worship Tharizdun- there is just a cult within the Scarlet Brotherhood that worships Tharizdun.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:18 am; edited 3 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:31 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In the Gord books, the Scarlet Brotherhood were primarily devil-worshippers; they were only serving Tharizdun because the hierarchy of the Hells had decided to invest its resources into setting Tharizdun free.

    Do you happen to know any page numbers or remember which book details this? I’ll admit it’s been awhile since I’ve read the Gord books, but this still doesn’t seem to be out of line with the Folio.

    rasgon wrote:

    While it's certainly probable that Syrul and Pyremius aren't the SB's only gods, Lakofka's articles did make them out to be their primary patrons, which would suggest that Tharizdun was second-tier at best.

    Cebrion wrote:
    The Black Brotherhood is only a weak cult…

    Again, I’m not saying that Tharizdun should be worshipped by the majority of the SB. I am saying that he should be the patron of a handful of the most elite and powerful. This way everyone is right – Syrul and Pyremius enjoy the worship of the majority while the leaders have a hidden agenda like Gygax and Sargent described.

    This keeps Tharizdun slumbering and largely out of the picture without scrapping everything Gygax wrote and relegating Big T’s worshipers to an ineffectual splinter sect. Any other solution requires a lot of convoluted backpedaling and/or ignoring canon material, like the flimsy explanation about SB agents falling for their own propaganda and starting the BB.

    With this premise, the BB can be a secret arm of the SB: a small group of special agents, tomb raiders, and mad cultists who receive their orders directly from the top and are unknown to the rest of the Brotherhood.

    Cebrion wrote:
    Rasgon has the Folio/Gord books treatment down perfectly.

    Rasgon didn’t mention the Folio. Are you talking about my post?

    Cebrion wrote:
    prior to SKRs "The Scarlet Brotherhood", [The Black Brotherhood] didn't refer to a Tharizdun Cult at all. [snip] Later published material, namely SKRs The Scarlet Brotherhood, ramps things up hugely

    I can’t find anything about the Black Brotherhood in TSB, do you have a page number? Neither can I find much about Tharizdun, other than that his rumored worship is just a propaganda scare tactic.

    BTW, does everyone generally like the TSB sourcebook? The god specs are nice, but I get bored to tears every time I read more than a page or two and I'm really upset by the Tharizdun treatment. Rather than find a creative way to integrate Lakofka's work and Tharizdun, SKR trampled a wealth of material. IIRC, SKR said in an interview once that he was dreading the writing and couldn’t imagine filling a whole book on the subject, but, “fortunately”, his higher-ups agreed to let him tackle the Amedio and Hepmonaland, in which he was more interested. Granted, I’m pulling stuff out of the back of my memory here and I hope I'm not misrepresenting Mr. Reynolds (I’ve recently searched for such an interview and can’t find it), but, IIRC, wtf? How could somebody not be inspired to write about the SB?!?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:32 pm  

    In my version of the Scarlet Brotherhood they follow the suel pantheon only and are on cordial terms with members of the scarlet sign which follow Tharizdun. Much like Cebrion I have the Black Brotherhood as a splinter sect of Tharizdun worshipers in the Scarlet brotherhood. Wizards of the Scarlet sign have welcomed Tharizdun into the pantheon.

    Tharizdun's overall influence on the suel and their organizations is minimal at best IMC. My preference is Tharizdun influence to be minimal but still have some prensence.

    Later

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    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:22 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Do you happen to know any page numbers or remember which book details this? I’ll admit it’s been awhile since I’ve read the Gord books, but this still doesn’t seem to be out of line with the Folio.


    Perhaps that's just my interpretation, but I'm basing it on Artifact of Evil, page 188:

    Artifact of Evil wrote:
    "They are going to battle with a host of the Stinking Brotherhood" (of course Iuz referred to the scarlet-clad servants of regimented Hell, his listeners knew)


    In the Gord series, the lords of the Nine Hells, the daemons and night hags of Hades, and most other lower planar entities were all seeking Tharizdun's freedom, with only the fractious Abyss disagreeing on the subject, with Demogorgon's camp seeking Tharizdun's release and Graz'zt's allies and the Iuz-Zuggtmoy-Iggwilv camp both resisting. If the Scarlet Brotherhood were servants of the Hells, as suggested in the quote above, it makes sense that the Hells would direct them to recover the Theorpart, but they'd still remain diabolic partisans first and foremost and Tharizdun partisans only as their masters commanded it. Now, it's possible that they were only servants of the Hells insofar as their leaders were lawful evil, but the above is my take on it.

    Curley Greenleaf seems to have a different view of the Scarlet Brotherhood on page 51, where the druid claims "The Scarlet Sign serves Tharizdun above all other of their Evil deities."

    I do think both the devil-worshiping interpretation and the Tharizdun-worshiping interpretation fit poorly with Len Lakofka's depiction in Dragon #89, where Pyremius and Syrul are credited for the Brotherhood's rise. It's true that it's not strictly contradictory, but it's not really harmonious either; if the leaders of the Scarlet Sign prefer another deity then it seems unlikely that Pyremius and Syrul would expend much energy to aid them, especially when Dragon #89 makes it clear that inviting a response from other deities would be a disaster for them. Only if Syrul and Pyremius are their most revered patrons does it make sense that they'd risk themselves in that way. Why risk their necks, even slightly, to play second fiddle to someone who isn't even awake? Thus, the Tharizdun-worshiping angle chews up the Suel deity angle and swallows it. If the leaders of the Brotherhood are truly partisans of Tharizdun, it's not possible to blend the different interpretations of the Brotherhood into an elegant whole, because one flavor overwhelms the other. If it's only one faction of the Brotherhood who reveres the imprisoned deity (and not the ruling one), though, the two flavors can exist in balance and there's less dissonance between the two interpretations.

    vestcoat wrote:
    Again, I’m not saying that Tharizdun should be worshipped by the majority of the SB. I am saying that he should be the patron of a handful of the most elite and powerful. This way everyone is right – Syrul and Pyremius enjoy the worship of the majority while the leaders have a hidden agenda like Gygax and Sargent described.


    I guess I just dislike that interpretation, and much prefer what I see as the original Scarlet Brotherhood, which didn't have a secret Tharizdun agenda. Tharizdun-worship, even if it's just by the leaders, doesn't fit with my view of what the Scarlet Brotherhood is. Pyremius and Syrul both fit the Scarlet Brotherhood and its methods, while a god of entropy and madness seems like a random, left-field revelation to explain why they'd be involved with the plot of Artifact of Evil. I'm okay with one sect among them, the Black Brotherhood, indulging in worship of Him of Utter Darkness, but turning the whole organization into a conspiracy to awaken the Dark God seems to limit them, in my view. Even if they do other things as well, it changes their nature.

    Quote:
    Rather than find a creative way to integrate Lakofka's work and Tharizdun


    I think he did find a creative way to do so. What The Scarlet Brotherhood says is "Not even the Brotherhood knows where he comes from, although many have their theories, and several groups are investigating ways to draw raw magical power from the sites and artifacts believed to be associated with him... Agents in the outworld are instructed to mention the god if the situation warrants it; these offhand comments escalate into rumors that undermine the morale of the Brotherhood's enemies."

    Now, this obviously wasn't Gygax's intention (whose intention, in turn, obviously wasn't Lakofka's intention), but note that this description does fit pretty well with the events of Artifact of Evil. Curley Greenleaf might well still mistakenly believe Tharizdun to be the Scarlet Sign's primary patron (and we have only his word on this, since Iuz doesn't say so, nor does the omniscient narrator), and the Brotherhood in turn still has a perfectly reasonable reason to be in the Pomarj hunting for artifacts of Tharizdun (in order to exploit whatever power they might provide). In this way, nothing in Artifact of Evil is contradicted and everything in it could have happened as described (the later Gord books are more problematic, of course).

    SKR's book also says "Only citizens on the extreme fringe of Brotherhood society actually revere him," which is very different from what Curley Greenleaf implied, but does allow for some Tharizdun worship, possibly even among some in the upper hierarchy as well as the monk in Keith Strohm's novel. It also allows for (but doesn't require) the existence of the Black Brotherhood.

    I think the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer did an even better job with its portrayal of the Black Brotherhood in blending the various interpretations of the Scarlet Brotherhood into a harmonious whole. With the Black Brotherhood, an entire faction of the Scarlet Sign can worship the imprisoned god of entropy and madness without the nation as a whole being defined by it. I much prefer this, since I think it allows for more flexibility in how the Brotherhood is used in a game and better justifies the close involvement of Syrul and Pyremius in the nation's destiny.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:17 pm  

    Oops! Not the folio, but the Sergent stuff.

    Anyways, the SB worshiping anything other than the Suloise pantheon goes completely out of line with what the Scarlet Brotherhood is all about, going by the Folio and most other sources. Sargent did follow Gygax, but the thing to note is why Gygax wrote what he did.

    Somebody correct me if I am wrong(grodog most likely), but I am pretty sure that, due to separation from TSR, Gygax could no longer write about most of the details of Greyhawk, including the Suel pantheon, and so swapped them out for diabolism, which fit into his story's Tharizdun plot anyways. While people might like the Gord books well enough, only the first two were written without constraints, such that they could contain anything they way it should be. Those that came after were written under topical restrictions. So, the whole idea that "Gygax wrote that they were totally open to diabolism and Tharizdun worship." needs to be put in the proper context, as it very much does go against what the Scarlet Brotherhood believes in- Suel mastery. That includes their deities as well, which Tharizdun is not one of. Suel deities are superior to other deities, always(whether it is true or not).

    "I pity the fool that isn't Suel!" That is the Scarlet Brotherhood ideology. Laughing Tharizdun cultists in the Scarlet Brotherhood would therefore be outcasts, just like they are everywhere else, and so they are. Tharizdun might be big and scary, but he once again isn't a Suel deity, and therefore is beneath the Scarlet Brotherhood. As with any cult, Thardizdun followers in the Scarlet Brotherhood would seek to infiltrate into positions of power and influence. In the Scarlet Brotherhood, where backstabbing is a way of life(literally) and everyone is paranoid about those above and below them, it is saying something if a cultist of Tharizdun, let alone more than one, rises to a place of prominence in such a nation. Even if they do, they surely wouldn't be openly accepted due to their heretical worship of a non-Suel deity. This is of course in Greyhawk, not Gordhawk. In Gordhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood lets the Tharizdun freak flag fly.

    I agree with rasgon that the LGG handled the whole Tharizdun angle well.

    One more answer for Azzy1974:



    Yes, I made the image "baseball bat upside the head" big. Laughing Wink If you maneuver the image around a bit, it ought to fit on your screen just about how you see the web page normally. EDIT: Okay, I just had to shrink the image down, as it was messing with the width of the page(I hate that! Laughing). I am going to see about getting the Forum Search to be visible on every single Forum page though, just because it would be more visible(and useful) to have it that way. For now, it is only on the Forum index page. The site search is always visible at the top right of the page.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:20 am; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:25 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    While people might like the Gord books well enough, only the first two were written without constraints, such that they could contain anything they way it should be.


    To be fair, Artifact of Evil was one of the first two. It was published by TSR, which is why Sargent treated it as canon.

    Really, Vestcoat's concept of a Scarlet Brotherhood dominated by Tharizdun-worshipers with strong non-Tharizdun-worshiping factions and the alternate concept of a Scarlet Brotherhood of Suel god worshipers with a Tharizdun-worshiping faction isn't too far apart. From a player's perspective, the two ideas might be indistinguishable, depending on how they're played.
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    Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:31 pm  

    I've always felt that Tharizdun, NE, would seek his escape, and annihilation of reality, by any evil means. His goal of unmaking reality could be accomplished chaotically - through some random calamity or catastrophe, or lawfully - through the unbending, unchanging and unyielding law of entropy.

    His leveraging of chaotic forces is evident in the cults of elemental evil, madmen who seek the turmoil of elemental forces to achieve annihilation.

    His leveraging of lawful force could be focused in the racism and tyranny of the Scarlet Brotherhood. What is a Suel? How many newborns will be subject to infanticide for failure to meet the racial goal? Is this not an undoing of the physical reality that might further Tharizdun's goals. At the end of their program, does not the Scarlet Brotherhood reduce the Suloise people to an inbred, inflexible band of creatures, ultimately less than they once were? Is not that which was once Suloise, ultimately destroyed?

    Mental and metaphysical reality must be destroyed as well as physical reality for Tharizdun to succeed. Through extreme chaos, there is madness of various kinds - sociopathy, delusions, and hallucinations. Through extreme law there are other forms of madness - rigid phobias, unyielding compulsions, and manias (pyromania for the Pyremians).

    How much liberty is to be destroyed through crushing individual will and replacing it with the will of the Brotherhood State? Personal identity, a facet of reality that cannot be attacked from the chaotic side, must be destroyed from the lawful side. Crushed under ever changing societal rules and norms, the very awareness of individuality melts away (the Syrul followers know that there is no truth, even the so-called truth of the individual). Where once there was a community of individuals, all that will remain will be the mindless mob flailing about in self-annihilation.

    The Scarlet Brotherhood is lawful evil, so it still can serve Tharizdun's goals. For Tharizdun doesn't care about the means, he only cares about the ends - his escape and the resulting unmaking all of reality to reflect his own immeasurable evil.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:18 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    While people might like the Gord books well enough, only the first two were written without constraints, such that they could contain anything they way it should be.


    To be fair, Artifact of Evil was one of the first two. It was published by TSR, which is why Sargent treated it as canon.

    Really, Vestcoat's concept of a Scarlet Brotherhood dominated by Tharizdun-worshipers with strong non-Tharizdun-worshiping factions and the alternate concept of a Scarlet Brotherhood of Suel god worshipers with a Tharizdun-worshiping faction isn't too far apart. From a player's perspective, the two ideas might be indistinguishable, depending on how they're played.


    Sure. Different strokes for different folks. That's part of why Greyhawk campaigns are so varied- even the background material varies to a degree.
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    Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:04 pm  

    Thank you guys for all the replies! There's certainly a lot to look at and I'm glad to see different takes on it.

    Sorry, Cebrion... Looking at the pic you posted, I understand how I missed it--I never looked at the forum index page! Laughing
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    Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:44 am  

    I've finally had the chance to read all the replies., the topic is pretty intriguing. Let me throw some thoughts out on the matter (and try to syncretize the Vestcoat/Rasgon dichotomy)...

    I believe it is generally accepted that the Suel Imperium had grown into wickedness by the time of their conflict with the Baklunish Empire led to the Invoked Devastation. Perhaps the Suel interest and worship of Tharizdun (amongst, at least, the power-hungry elite and leadership of the Imperium) had begun in these times and were responsible (in part) for the moral collapse of the Imperium and for its insane and extreme measure of nuclear assault, er... the Invoked Devastation.

    The initial tenets of the Scarlet Brotherhood arose just prior to the Twin Cataclysms and were deemed necessary to assure the continued survival of the Suel culture and its people (much in the same way as many of the Mosaic Laws of the Hebrews were to ensure theirs survival even in the face of being conquered and through several diaspora). The initial tenets emphasized racial/cultural purity and superiority, and the rejection of things non-Suel (including foreign practices and gods—such as Tharizdun). These initial tenets transformed over the years, especially under the patronage of Syrul and Pyremius, into a more paranoid racist agenda that became much more sinister (and Nazi-esque) than originally envisaged.

    The veneration of Tharizdun may have continued in secret by a handful (likely the descendants of the surviving Tharizdun-worshipping nobles of the Imperium), eventually becoming a secret, splinter sect (the Black Brotherhood) gaining (or retaining) ranks in the highest echelons of the Brotherhood’s hierarchy (becoming a secret society within a secret society) intent on silently influencing the greater Brotherhood. Rather than trying to have the greater brotherhood embrace the worship of Tharizdun (a move that would like unveil them and cause certain backlash), they push more a more acceptable agenda of obtaining of artifacts of Tharizdun (ostensibly to use against the Brotherhood’s enemies much in the same way the as the old Imperium). They are also likely responsible for the development of the bredthralls and other hideous experiments (which probably involve the magics and/or artifacts of Tharizdun).

    As the existence of this “Black Brotherhood” is coming to light , its true leaders remain hidden in plain sight, pretending to be normal members of the Scarlet Sign and some have even become trusted advisors to the Father of Obedience, himself. These leaders are more than willing to sacrifice lesser members to appease the more fundamentalist members of the Scarlet Brotherhood that oppose the worship of Tharizdun and to retain their anonymity.
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