Have the leaders of the Fiend Knights of Doom ever been named in canon? Rob Kuntz identified two Marshals of level 11+, the greater overseeing the northern & eastern lands, while the lesser commanded the southern & western armies. Carl Sargent called out 3 fiend knight leaders of levels 11, 12, & 15, but didn't name them. I think I'm going to reconcile those sources with the following hierarchy:
15th-level Fiend Knight Commander
12th-level Marshal (north & east)
11th-level Marshal (south & west)
10th-level General
4 Generals of levels 8–9
Before I start naming and statting these individuals, is anyone aware of any canon references?
I am very embarassed to admit that I am not even certain tha tI am familiar with the Fiend Knights, at all. They sound really great, though ... I'd love to know from where they come so that I could look into them more and possibly use them in my gaming stuff.
I think they only appeared in Ivid the Undying, and since Ivid V disappeared and Rauxes went tits up soon after, I don't think they ever got any other love. They're not undead, but they're not quite mortal either, though a few paragraphs later it says that they're "...simply wholly controlled humans, created by a precursor of the malign rituals which brought the animus to Oerth."
Rob Kuntz introduced the Demonic Knights of Doom in one of the "Greyhawk's World" articles (DRAGON® #59 or so). Carl Sargent renamed them Fiend Knights (in keeping with the early 2E prohibition against demons and devils) in Ivid the Undying. They're basically humans who have undergone a demonic ritual (courtesy of Xaene) to become super-soldiers. They're fanatically loyal to Ivid and need neither eat nor sleep.
And they really are demonic, if they're inspired by the death knights. The rituals used to create them may well involve the same casket of Abyssal bone used to create the animuses. That artifact was gifted to the House of Naelax by the devils, but it's probably made from demon bones.
To answer your question, I couldn't find any reference to any named leaders of the Knights of Doom, unless you count Ivid V (who obviously isn't one of them).
Before I start naming and statting these individuals, is anyone aware of any canon references?
The only cannon references I'm aware of that detail anything about the Knights are the Dragon article and Ivid the Undying. So I think you're pretty good to go to make it up yourself. The only other place I could think to check in the LG material, but I haven't encounter anything thus far.
An interesting thing, to me ... in the Pathfinder system, there's a Prestige Class that I would love to adapt for Greyhawk. The story is already very close,one would simply have to change names and places, and very little else. They are called the Hellknights ... and I think that this would be a very good fit for the Fiend (or Demonic) Knights. ... a demon-influenced nation, structured knighthood, evil ritual, they even have special armors (almost just like Fiend Knights do) ... great stuff, man. And, since there's a fair amount of material on them, you could decide if you wanted to use some of the sub-groups of Orders within the knighthood (like those listed in the original Dragon Magazine), or if you even wanted to borrow some of the names of NPCs and such from the generic (or Golarion) supplements to use for your campaign.
I just pulled out my #59 Dragon, and read up on them a little bit ... haven't looked at Ivid yet, but, I got to thinking about alignment. If they are truly demon knights, and not devil knights, then the Hellknights might not work so well ... Hellknights are *rigidly* lawful, and associate with devils. In the original version Fiend Knights can be any evil. Being that they are military leaders of structured armies, lawful seems to fit. ... [later edit] Also just looked at Ivid. They are certainly described as "programmed" and "controlled". One reference is that they are "goosestepping ... day and night". Though it lists other evil alignments, these certainly read as very rigidly lawful.
In the Dragon article they appear to be strictly an officer class leading units of (to my reading) normal, although elite, troops. In Ivid they come across more as a relatively small, but very elite company. This could be explained by some time having passed between the description in the Dragon article and Ivid, the former being set immediately after the order for the arrest of Emasstus Carcosa before the start of the Greyhawk Wars (577), the latter one year after the wars ended (584). Plenty of time for some organizational changes.
In the Dragon article they appear to be strictly an officer class leading units of (to my reading) normal, although elite, troops. In Ivid they come across more as a relatively small, but very elite company. ...
I wouldn't disagree with that reading at all. It might also be explained in the way that the USArmy Rangers "lead" other infantry units. They're the first in, etc. Leading by example. Or, former Rangers are often in leadership positions in other infantry units. Rangers are often seen in companies, but also in small squads, and individually in other units. And they are always loyal to their Ranger units. ... or Delta Force, or Marines, or whatever elite group you'd like to cite thus. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
If they are truly demon knights, and not devil knights, then the Hellknights might not work so well ... Hellknights are *rigidly* lawful, and associate with devils. In the original version Fiend Knights can be any evil.
They're not demon knights, they're demonic. There may be some Abyssal taint in their forging (though the devils probably had more to do with it), but they're human beings who've lost all vestiges of free will and imagination. They're puppets of the Overking, now. Rigidly lawful doesn't even begin to cover it; whatever their alignment is, they literally cannot even consider disobeying orders.
I don't think the Hellknights are a good model for the Knights of Doom because the Hellknights, whatever else they are, are human beings. They think, eat, and sleep like human beings. The Knights of Doom have lost that, being wholly controlled by the Malachite Throne.
My current thought is that the casket of Abyssal bone is a coffin created from demon bones by diabolic experimenters intent on finding a way to turn captured demons into puppets under their command. It's just a theory, though; we don't actually know from canon which baatezu artifacts inspired the creation of the Fiend-Knights.
Pedantic, much? I gotcha, Rasgon. Totally understand. My implication wasn't to imply that they were actually demons, but to emphasize whether they were associated with lawful or chaotic fiends.
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Rigidly lawful doesn't even begin to cover it; whatever their alignment is, they literally cannot even consider disobeying orders.
That's about the same way that I read it. ... The ultimate in Universal Soldiers. (wasn't that the Jean Claude VanDamm movie?)
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I don't think the Hellknights are a good model for the Knights of Doom because the Hellknights, whatever else they are, are human beings. They think, eat, and sleep like human beings. The Knights of Doom have lost that, being wholly controlled by the Malachite Throne.
Yep ... I agree that as the fluff is written for Golarion, it wouldn't fit flavor-wise in GH. That's the reason that I would keep the Prestige Class mechanics as written and use them for NPCs. It would take almost nothing to write a paragraph explaining how they are found in GH. Actually, it wouldn't even take that. The background is already written. One could simply say, "I am using this mechanic to have rules for what these amazing monster-men can do." You know ... just because I thought DMPrata might not want to have to go through all of the process of creating stuff, if he could liberally borrow something similar. Aside from free will, they're not all that different.
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It's just a theory, though; we don't actually know from canon which baatezu artifacts inspired the creation of the Fiend-Knights.
Do we know what artifact, or the exact process, is used for creating an animus? If by canon they're similar, we could make extrapolations and assumptions from there.
... and then we could just begin wild speculation, just because it's fun! I vote that we say all Demonic Knights of Doom wear pink bikinis under their armor. ... kind of like a flight suit. _________________ Owner and Lead Admin: https://greyhawkonline.com<div>Editor-in-Chief of the Oerth Journal: https://greyhawkonline.com/oerthjournal</div><div>Visit my professional art gallery: https://wkristophnolen.daportfolio.com</div>
My implication wasn't to imply that they were actually demons, but to emphasize whether they were associated with lawful or chaotic fiends.
Right... and if you get what I mean, it makes a difference whether they're actually demons or merely demonic. They may be associated with chaotic fiends in some sense, but they might not get any personality traits from that.
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Do we know what artifact, or the exact process, is used for creating an animus? If by canon they're similar, we could make extrapolations and assumptions from there
That's why I brought up the casket of Abyssal bone. It plays a role in creating the animus, so I thought it might play a role in creating the Fiend-Knights as well. The animus is clerical magic (clerics of Hextor), while the Fiend-Knights are wizardly magic (Xaene), so there's not a lot of room for them to have anything in common.
Here's the animus creation process, as given in Ivid the Undying:
Carl Sargent wrote:
This creation process is unique, and cannot be quantified in simple terms (no spell description in the AD&D game format fits this). Essentially, the priests use magical energies of a power almost equivalent to a quest spell (Tome of Magic). Meanwhile, a pit fiend in the service of Baalzephon uses its wish power to complete the arcane enchantment. For this reason alone, animus creation is not an everyday event.
The third vital element is the casket of abyssal bone, one of the artifacts granted to Ivenzen by Baalzephon. The ritual used to create the animus involves slaying the victim and a fair number of other souls besides, and it does not bear relating here.
Meanwhile, the creation of the Knights of Doom is described thusly:
Carl Sargent wrote:
The Fiend-Knights of Doom are an elite squad of warriors created from normal men by spellcraft on the part of both Ivid V himself, and Xaene, and also using mind-controlling magics crafted from baatezu relics.
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They are simply wholly controlled humans, created by a precursor of the malign rituals which brought the animus to Oerth.
The Casket of Abyssal Bone is a baatezu relic, so I thought that might be it, since the common element isn't the wish spell and it's not the quest spell of Hextor. Of course, there's still the "slaying the victim and a fair number of other souls besides" part which might be an element in both.
One of the things that interests me is what happened to the Demonic Knights of Doom in the aftermath of the collapse and sundering of the Great Kingdom, the disappearance Ivid and so forth. Do the still exist in 591+? If so, does anyone have control of them (if so, who--I'd think Grenell of the North Kingdom, personally)?
That's why I brought up the casket of Abyssal bone. It plays a role in creating the animus, so I thought it might play a role in creating the Fiend-Knights as well. The animus is clerical magic (clerics of Hextor), while the Fiend-Knights are wizardly magic (Xaene).
The Casket of Abyssal Bone is a baatezu relic, so I thought that might be it, since the common element isn't the wish spell and it's not the quest spell of Hextor. Of course, there's still the "slaying the victim and a fair number of other souls besides" part which might be an element in both.
Undoubtedly, you're right about the Casket of Abyssal Bone seeming to be a common link between the two. I would agree that it's likely that it has something to do with a lot of the magic that Ivid puts together. And since his magic ability isn't quite stable, it's not surprising that he relies heavily on artifacts and other magical items.
I might be missing something, though. While it is obvious that it's not precisely a quest spell that is used, I think that it might be plausible to include something close. As you correctly point out, it does refer to "mind-controlling magics", and "a power almost equivalent to a quest spell". What comes to mind, for me, is a geas. Especially since Ivid and Xaene are both arcane casters.
I'm just thinking this through as I type, but, I'm thinking that it's possible that the Casket might be activated in some way by arcane magic (which Ivid could do in either case of animus or Fiend Knight), and that it might be a geas - or some other similar efffect that causes severe mind control - that is used. (Greater Dominate comes to mind.)
Though, since the description specifies that it's not like anything else out there, it may be a unique power to the relic, and that it's not delineated by any one particular spell ... essentially, we'd have to say that it's not anything that we can define, and go with complete speculation, I s'pose. And I guess, it is (at least theoretically) possible that both rituals contain portions that are both arcane and divine.
And I guess, it is (at least theoretically) possible that both rituals contain portions that are both arcane and divine.
In theory, though there's no indication that arcane spellcasters have any role in the creation of the animuses. It's priests of Hextor and the pit fiend.
I should note that Gary Holian's article "Demogorgon's Champions: The Death Knights of Oerth, Part Two" in Dragon #291 has a somewhat contradictory account of the origins of the animus. In that article, the death knight Lady Lorana Kath of Naelax invented the animus through "many lifetimes of research and experimentation, digging up long-buried secrets of the ancient Ur-Flan necromancers who once inhabited those lands before the arrival of the Aerdi. She used the local natives as cattle, culling the herd for her gruesome investigations. Her efforts resulted in the creation of the animus (see Living Greyhawk Journal #2) for the priesthood of Hextor, presented to Ivid V as a gift before the onset of the Greyhawk Wars a decade ago... Now, with the fall of Rauxes, Lady Kath's stronghold may be the last place in the Great Kingdom that new animuses might still be created..."
Lady Kath is herself a cleric of Hextor, but if you believe Ivid the Undying she must also have access to the casket of Abyssal bone and a pit fiend. Fitting together the death knights, Lady Kath, the Knights of Doom, and the animuses into a single timeline is somewhat difficult. The same article in Dragon #291 notes "[The death knights'] legend is a powerful force in the Great Kingdom and was exploited even by Overking Ivid V and his former court wizard, Xaene, with their creation of the Knights of Doom, a pale mockery meant to evoke these ancient villains to frighten the populace." Ivid the Undying, or at least Ivid V himself, also credits Patriarch-General Pyrannden of Hextor with "work creating animuses."
Possibilities include:
1. Lorana Kath can create proto-animuses on her own, similar to the "botched" early animuses mentioned in Ivid the Undying (like Count Mardral Ishenvan), but she couldn't make true animuses until she had access to the Casket.
2. The Casket isn't necessary at all. It was included under the illusion that it might make the animuses more obedient to the Overking, but it didn't work; the animuses are less obedient than ever, since they combine their natural independence with a burning hatred toward those responsible for their undead existences. It's possible that Lady Kath actually sabotaged this part because she hoped that the animuses might be worthy mates, and she couldn't tolerate the idea of mindless servility among those she hoped might become her equals.
It seems clear that Lady Kath never interacted with Ivid V directly, instead contacting Patriarch-General Pyrannden and allowing him to take some or all of the credit for the rites. If Lady Kath invented the animuses independently of Ivid V's court, it becomes even more apparent that the casket of Abyssal bone is the only common thread between the animuses and the Knights of Doom, apart from the Knights of Doom being inspired by the curse that created death knights like Lady Kath.
The "Demonic Knights of Doom" can't switch loyalties as quoted elsewhere they are wholly controlled. It depends on the conditions of this control which we know next to nothing.
The knights serve Ivid but what does that mean; still standing at attention within the throneroom of rauxes. Are they loyal to the personage of the overking, the malachite throne or house naelax. The preconditions are important as triggers for the programmed warriors - need a coronation, baatezu influence, seated on the malachite throne. It gives individual campaigns latitude to mold the knights to there own needs.
The closest hint as to possible conditioning of this sort is the GK ambassador from FtA.
Count Kyrine Nauxanth; magical compulsion causing strange salutes when Ivid is mentioned and the unwillingness to acknowledge to sundering of the GK.
Leads me to believe the knights would be conditioned to such an extent as too be unable to just flee rauxes and seek service with one of the successor states.
I posit that the Fiend Knights were neutered by the Flight of Fiends. Rather than being banished, perhaps they simply collapsed, leaving behind normal human corpses. It would explain their absence in later canon.
Icarus, between Kuntz and Sargent, I have all the mechanics I need for my 1E Fiend Knights. I was just looking for names. Since there don't appear to be any in canon, I'm free to invent them from whole cloth.
Knights of Doom, Tower of the (Rauxes)[CTL]
WG8 - 71
The reference in Dragon 63 is to a generic Marshal, not one that's named. In WG8 it's just a reference to the Tower on the map key for Rauxes; so, nothing there either. I don't remember if Rob named any of the Demonic Knights of Doom in the Zayene Creations Unlimited modules, but my gut tells me that they weren't named there either.
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The ultimate in Universal Soldiers. (wasn't that the Jean Claude VanDamm movie?)
