Canonfire! Forums-viewtopic-Dispel Magic...how many attempts do you get?

Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:39 pm Dispel Magic...how many attempts do you get?

I don't see this question proposed in earlier threads, so here goes:

How often can a Dispel Magic (priest or wizard) be cast to remove a magical effect?

In the rules, it doesn't say one way or the other, to my knowledge. But a nagging feeling in the back of my head tells me that, perhaps, I stumbled on something that said "only once until you gain a level to retry."

But maybe I am completely wrong.

OK, your turn.

-Lanthorn

Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:36 pm

There is no limit. Cast dispel magic until whatever it is is finally dispelled (if it can be dispelled by them).

Additionally, if something is beyond the PCs' power to dispel, but they don't know it, let them cast dispel magic spells until they roll a 20 (i.e. their maximum dispel potential). When the effect still isn't gone they should know that they are dealing with something that is beyond their piddling power to dispel. If they can't figure it out, ask them to figure out what level of magic a roll of a "20" would allow them to dispel in the first place. That might give them a clue as to the power of what they are dealing with.
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Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:23 pm

Cebrion . . . very nice! Cool

Mwahahahahahahaha!

Evil Grin

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Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:37 pm

Ceb, thanks for clarifying the issue about how many times a caster can attempt a Dispel. However, my understanding is that a natural "20" is an automatic success (just as a natural "20" on a hit roll always hits, unless something requires a magical weapon and you aren't using one), regardless of the difference in level between casters. The only exception I know of are the magical effects of Demi-Powers and above.

-Lanthorn

Sat Aug 04, 2012 9:57 pm

Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:23 pm

I don't have access to my 2nd Ed. books right now, but what is the cost of the material component(s) for the Dispel Magic spell? Would repeated castings cost the PC excessive amounts of money?

SirXaris

Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:34 pm

No material components needed. Happy

Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:16 am

BlueWitch is right, a 1 always fails and a 20 always succeed. However in the case where a 20 is rolled you can have the wizard roll again and add the two scores to see if it is enough to dispel the magic. On the reroll a role of 1 should not be added to the role instead it means 20 is the roll. If this is not enough to cancel the spell then the PC knows their in for it.

Later

Argon

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:23 am

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:26 am

True, there is that! I was thinking if there was a limit to the power of mortal magic that one could successfully Dispel. However, I suppose it is possible even for a minor spell-caster to Dispel even magic from those two...if one rolled a natural "20" according to the rules.

-Lanthorn

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:45 am

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:46 am

No argument there, SX. Just pointing out what the rules permit. But, as you know, I am always one to mess with gaming mechanics! Happy

-Lanthorn

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:51 am

There is "The Cenoteph" in the nation of Belkzen, on the world of Golarion (Pathfinder).

The doors haven't opened in centuries and no one has been able to get in.

Let me see: You mean to tell me that in 1000 years, NO ONE has rolled a natural 20?

B.S.

They are just Guidelines, my friends, not rules. Guidelines.
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Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:59 am

I was waiting for that... Wink

Lanthorn: "But, Mystic, what about the Code?!" Mad

M-S: "Guidelines, Lanthorn, guidelines..." or, "Pirate, Lanthorn...savvy?" Laughing

-Lanthorn

Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:09 am

The Source Books are in need of "fine tuning." And that's where the DM comes in.

On a natural 20, a 5th level magician can Dispel the magics of a 10th level caster (or less). Against more "powerful" magicians, he fails. You have to make the adjustments.

"The Cenoteph" cannot be opened, simply because it was sealed by a 40th level Lich-Wizard and no magician "alive today" has attained the necessary power to Dispel the magic sealing the doors.

When your player reaches 35th level, a natural 20 just might open those doors. Wink

However, considering what's supposed to be locked away in there, he/she might not be able to defend themselves once they do succeed in opening the doors. Evil Grin

Mwahahahahahahaha!
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Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:10 am

Perhaps an Anti-Magic Shell or Scroll of Protection vs Magic could work...

-Lanthorn

Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:41 am

You mean, to seal the doors?

Perhaps . . . or perhaps not.

According to the description of the doors for the Cenoteph -- in example -- only magic or a giant could open them. Since giants are to be found everywhere we would only be correct in assuming that -- after 1000 years -- some giant would have already opened them. The doors have not been opened.

So we must assume . . . magically sealed.

If the opening of the doors is then protected against the use of magic -- such as an anti-magic shield -- then how does the Lich-Wizard intend on re-opening them, should he ever gain his freedom? Confused

(He's not dead, merely imprisoned)

"Open Sesame!" Shocked

Ahh! But a command word is . . . magic! Evil Grin

(Besides, in "real life" Sesame was the name of the mule that turned the wheel!) Surprised

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Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:10 pm

I'm a fan of changing the rules where a natural 20 does not always succeed. Though I think you should need at least a 2 to succeed as there are no 0 on a d20. Instead I like to see the level of the spell versus level of caster and the spell level looking to be dispelled.

So dispel magic is a 3rd level spell the caster is 5th level versus a 10th level caster difference of 5 levels and the caster spell which sealed the door is a 2nd level spell a difference of 1 level. Normally the roll needed for the caster of the dispel magic spell would be 15. Though as an option since dispel magic is a more powerful spell then the one its being used to dispel the roll needed would be 15 on a d20.

Other rules can be made like a 6th level version of dispel magic known as a greater dispel and a 9th level version called Disperse magic. This way all power related to removing or dispelling magic. They all work in the same way though the 3rd level one can permanent remove up to a total of 3 levels worth of magic, the 6th level one can remove a total of 6 levels of magic and the 9th can permanently remove up to 9 levels of magic. All can temporarily dispel magic in an area for a number of rounds determined by the level of the dispel cast.

Later

Argon

Sun Aug 05, 2012 4:46 pm

OK, here's another question:

When a priest or mage casts Dispel Magic, and there are some spell effects within the area that he/she does NOT want nullified (for instance, his/her OWN magic!), can he/she opt NOT to remove them?

I know that effects cast by the spell-worker can be automatically removed, but what if he/she does NOT want them dispelled? Is it a "too bad, so sad, they are gone anyway" kinda thing...or do they remain...or do you roll for them (and an 11 or higher Dispels them)?

For instance, a cleric has cast a Prayer on his allies, along with an Aid on himself. However, during the course of battle, he then casts a Dispel Magic to (hopefully) remove a rival mage's Slow spell that has himself and his allies affected.

Does his personal magic automatically nullify, even though he doesn't want it to? Or can he disregard the effect of his Dispel Magic for those effects? Or can should he roll to determine if it happens?

-Lanthorn

Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:20 pm

If he's casting in an area and is not specifying a target then everything in the area is free game. So you can have him cast directly on the opposing wizard to dispel anything the wizard is casting or temporarily disable the mage or cast in the area which effects all spells not just harmful ones.

Later

Argon

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:48 pm

Leave it to 2E to wuss out and put the "20 means you win!" rule in there. Laughing

I probably didn't recall that off hand because I don't think we ever instituted that newer aspect of the spell when we switched from 1E to 2E back in the day. We liked the idea that something could be too powerful for a piddling spell caster to deal with (incidentally, that's why some spell effects in lower level 1E modules were set as high as they were, meaning the effects were not intended to be able to be dispelled by the PCs going through the adventure. Clever writers. Wink

) I am not fan of that rule in this instance, as it is not a single chance to do something amazing, but is something where you get unlimited do-overs. There is no "OMG he rolled a 20! He did it!" response. There is the "Finally we rolled a 20. How many days did we have to rest and memorize spells to do that again?" response, to which the DM replies

"Two weeks, which is plenty of time for the dungeon recruitment/conscripting program to have fully restocked the whole place with undead, various humanoids, and strange monsters wanting to chew your faces off. Oh, and traps. Lots of traps."

"What was that last bit you were mumbling?"

"Oh, nothing important..." Evil Grin

So, with 2E you have to fudge it, or say the effect is artifact/divinely generated or something else suitably contrived, just because somebody just had to have their "20 means you win!" rule in there. rolleyes

But, yes, in 2E the rule of 1 and 20 applies in this case, so you got me. Happy

Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:57 pm

Cebrion,

This is the case where DM discretion should apply. I prefer that some things are not able to be overcome at least not easily. I have offered alternatives to the rules. However, sometimes you need more training before you can overcome an obstacle. So the balls in the court of the DM to regulate how he discerns how the spell works.

Later

Argon

Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:18 am

"Nope. Dispel magic is indiscriminate and will affect everything that it can. Use it with care, as the rest of the PCs might be somewhat annoyed when a bunch of their potions are turned into useless, foul-tasting liquid..."

Would you rule that it is automatic for effects the caster generated (even those that he/she still wants operational?) OR would you allow a roll to see if, randomly, they still remain functional?

-Lanthorn

FYI: I like the idea that some spells cast by MUCH higher lvl spell-workers (priests or mages) are just too powerful (based on difference in lvl) to be Dispelled.

Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:49 am

@ Argon and Lanthorn: Think of it as hit points.

The magic seal cast by the 5th level Caster has "12" hit points. Dispel, as cast by a 5th level caster, can remove "20" hit points of magic -- on a natural 20. Automatically removes magic seal. Wink

However, the magic seal "installed" by Mordenkanien or Rary has "1500" hit points. This means that 10 "natural 20s" is not going to remove the magical seal. The caster attempting to Dispel the magic lock needs to be of higher level to do so, so that his Dispel wields more hit point damage.

Thus, "The Cenoteph" has never been opened and there are vaults within Castle Greyhawk that remain closed. Wink

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Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:08 pm

Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:40 pm

Mystic, good analogy. I accept that sometimes a natural "20" is not 'good enough.'

Ceb, thank you for your pointed answer. I think your solution is a logical and fair one.

til next time gents,

Lanthorn

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:32 pm

@Mystic Scholar I like the analogy. Cool

@Cebrion I would rule it in a similar fashion.

@Lanthorn Isn't it time for a new question? Laughing

Later

Argon

Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:34 pm

@Argon, DONE! Separate thread...check out Planar Shifting! Happy

Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:24 pm

Damn it!

Now you got us plane shifting. Razz

Later

Argon

Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:42 pm

Added, accessory question pertaining to Dispel Magic:

Maybe this came up in a previous discussion, but how many of you roll for EACH magical item and effect... OR... how many of you make a single roll for ALL effects within the given area and see what magical dweomers are negated?

-Lanthorn

Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:23 am

We roll for each one, because the spell says to check each one, and you check by rolling a dice. If you want to keep things much simpler and check-list like, roll once and then tick away. The downside of the latter method is how many dispel magic spells are going to be cast against that powerful main villain villain when your chance of doing anything to the bazillion spells they have in effect is an all or nothing effect that has only around a 30% success rate when instead there could be an automatic prayer/lightning bolt/fireball success, or an even better chance of getting off a hold person spell on the enemy instead? Likely none. As we like dispel magic to actually have a real combat application and combat effect, we take the extra bit of time to roll for each effect/potion. Without doing so, the spell is pretty much a combat turd...except for the super villain spell caster who has things in their favor and who will successfully dispel the PCs stuff around 60% of the time. One comparatively easy dispel roll from a main spell caster villain and the PCs will be neutered. Better that the super villain dispels most but not all effects/potions rather than usually all of them and only sometimes none of them, and vice verse for the PCs. Makes for better game play balance.
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Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:46 am

Ceb, thank you for posting your reply.

For the longest time, until 'recently' in fact, I rolled for each and every spell effect, magic item, etc. What finally jolted me into making one single 'blanket' roll was a situation when I was running my (now epic saga) Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth campaign. The party ran afoul a seriously vicious rival faction loyal to Iuz, complete with mages and priests. Dispel Magics were flying left and right, typically cast by the Iuzians in order to nullify the magical Protections cast by the goodly priests, before the more damaging, offensive spells were launched. After rolling for each effect, I had some effects from LOWER lvl casters still working while HIGHER lvl caster effects were neutralized. My scientific, logical mind could not reconcile that. Now, I make one single roll, comparing the levels between casters, and let the chips....errrr, spells...fall, or become Dispelled as they may. I know that some may argue that magic is chaotic and all, but having a 1st lvl effect still 'operational' while a 9th lvl caster's is not after a 5th lvl mage or priest has flung a Dispel Magic just doesn't make any sense to me. This kinda goes back to our earlier discussion about Dispelling certain effects well above and beyond the ken of a spell-caster. Same principle in effect.

thanks for your input,

-Lanthorn

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:04 pm

Lanthorn,

I think your method works just fine. As a justification, the roll determines the power of the Dispel attempt. Its power is consistent with all opposing magic it comes into conflict with. Rolling separately for every opposing magical item and spell assumes that the power of the Dispel attempt fluctuates even though it is an instantaneous effect. I think I like that explanation and your method better than following the 'letter of the law' on this one.

SirXaris

Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:36 pm

HUZZAH!!!

Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:10 pm

Lanthorn,

That is the way I always adjudicated l Dispel Magic one roll and dispel the effects that would fail based on the caster's roll. Makes sense and speeds up game play.

Later

Argon

Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:42 pm

Excellent! Happy

Glad to know that I am not alone on this one.

-Lanthorn

Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:01 am

Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:51 am

Exactly.
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Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:43 am

'Battle lines' are drawn. Ding ding ding!

In one corner, we have a Bright Light (that asks too many questions), a Barbarian Skald, and a Paladin.

In the other corner we have an Azure Sorceror (is that Philidor?! Shocked

) and the dreaded Purple Lightning!

Happy

-Lanthorn

Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:55 pm

Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:11 pm

I am suddenly in the mood for lamb chops served with rosemary, rice, and a fine, red wine. Laughing

SX, you'll get no argument from me about your reasoning and analogy (though it made me hungry, though I cannot claim to have eaten dog, or human, for that matter! Shocked

) ...and yes, this is the 2e forum!

-Lanthorn

Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:27 pm

If you want some pork try reading the Infamous key part eight. It will get your mouth watering. Wink

Later

Argon