Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - The Demiurge?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    The Demiurge?
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:28 pm  
    The Demiurge?

    I've only read the first two Gord novels and I've seen mention of a person or being called the Demiurge. I've done searching on the internet and keep coming up with the name Basiliv. I've also read that potentially several high powered Wizards are actively seeking to become the Demiurge over at Maldin's website. http://melkot.com/mysteries/circle.html

    What is the story of Basiliv? How did he become the Demiurge? Why do Mordenkainen and Rary want access to the Powers? What are the powers of the Demiurge and what purpose does he serve? How does it tie in with the location Valley of the Mage? What is the stone structure Basiliv lives in and where is it located?
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Fri Aug 31, 2012 10:23 am  

    Sorry, I can only give you some basics.

    The Demiurge is concerned with protecting the Oerth. Basiliv is/was the current/last Demiurge, but has "gone away." Traveling other planes? Haven't seen anything. He's not dead, but he isn't "here," either.

    Mordenkainen wants the powers of the Demiurge to protect the Oerth from the threat of Tharizdun. (In relation to and in proximity to the Oerth, the Demiurge has powers near to those of a God)

    Rary betrayed the Circle to "stop" Mordenkainen from achieving this goal, because he feels that he is better qualified to be the Demiurge than Mordy is.

    As for the Valley, some believe it is close to a source of Oerth Blood. Others believe that is nothing more than the location of an exceedingly powerful magical Nexus. What is known is that the Valley has always been associated with and the home of the Demiurge.

    Some of the above is "Canon" and some is personal campaign. That's my limits. Sorry I couldn't be more help. Sad
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:01 pm  

    No worries! I'm weaving in some of the Circle of 8 intrigue into my current game and it does provide some food for thought. Smile

    Thank you!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 11:55 am  

    illustr8or,
    Nice thread, I also like Maldin website. Though it does have a retro feel to it. Wink

    I think part of the power of the Demi-urge requires one to become truly neutral in all things. Hence, its tie to the Valley of the mage where many things have a neutral tint.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 12:16 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    I also like Maldin website. Though it does have a retro feel to it.


    That's because Maldin is a 2e fan. That and the fact that he hasn't added to his site in some years. Laughing

    Argon wrote:
    I think part of the power of the Demi-urge requires one to become truly neutral in all things. Hence, its tie to the Valley of the mage where many things have a neutral tint.


    Yes. The Demiurge is Neutral with respects to "Good" and "Evil." The Demiurge's sole purpose is the protection and care taking of the Oerth. In example: As long as Iuz doesn't threaten the destruction of the planet itself, the Demiurge will not act against him. Thus, "his" not appearing during the Greyhawk Wars.

    Remember that, upon the Oerth, the Demiurge's powers rival those of a "true" god. Iuz is no threat to the Demiurge. One on one, the Demiurge would defeat Iuz -- a "mere" demi-god.

    But, for that same reason, the Demiurge may not be "Neutral" in regards to Order and Chaos. Given that Chaos might well threaten the planet -- overall -- the Demiurge might lean towards Order. At least, I would think so.

    That explanation would also fit with Mordenkainen's desire to use the position to check the advances of Tharizdun -- the essence of Chaos. Wink
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:32 pm  

    I do enjoy Maldin's info. I even kicked some cash to him and Anna because I enjoy what they do and provide. Smile

    Now if The Mage of the Valley has moved on to become a shade in my campaign and Basiliv has possibly vacated the position and say, moved on to exploring other on distant planes, I'm figuring that there would potentially be some sort of power grab initiated between Rary and Mordenkainen.

    So the Demiurge is an Oerthly caretaker. In what aspect? In our own history in philosophy, that is seen as a artisan or creator?
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 2:54 pm  

    illustr8or wrote:
    I'm figuring that there would potentially be some sort of power grab initiated between Rary and Mordenkainen.


    What do you think the murder of Tenser and Otiluke was all about at the signing of the Greyhawk Wars treaty? Rary's attempt on Modenkainen. The others were simply in the wrong place, at the wrong time, though Rary wasn't particularly concerned about collateral damage. Shocked Laughing

    illustr8or wrote:
    So the Demiurge is an Oerthly caretaker. In what aspect?


    I'm not entirely certain, as I have never read anything specific to that. However, it is believed -- in some circles -- that the Demiurge is closely associated with Beory. Cool

    Of course, some of the above is associated with personal campaigns and not with "canon."
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 4:16 pm  

    Quote:
    What do you think the murder of Tenser and Otiluke was all about at the signing of the Greyhawk Wars treaty? Rary's attempt on Mordenkainen. The others were simply in the wrong place, at the wrong time, though Rary wasn't particularly concerned about collateral damage.


    Right! I think that's really the first major move in their little chess game.

    Sorry If this is kind of stream of consciousness... Wink

    Knowing Mordenkainen, I'm thinking he probably forsaw this move, whether through divination or whispered plans in the wrong ears, which would eventually lead to future animosity/antagonism/fighting between Tenser and Rary. This would leave Mordy with a relatively unobstructed, yet small window to figure out how to make a grab for the seat of power.

    Enter the PCs...

    Meanwhile, Tenser slowly comes to a realization of what Rary and Mordenkainen are fighting over. Rary is now having to defend his new domain while trying to solidify his base of power AND strive to make a grab for the position of Demiurge to realize his ultimate goal of dominating the Oerth according to his plans for an 'enlightened' dictatorship. The fate of the world rests in the hands of some serious megalomaniacs.

    That brings me back to the Demiurge's powers, which "rival a god". I'm guessing this would specifically include the creation/destruction of life, where it is to exist in the food chain, and what that means cosmically in relation to the gods and Greyspace?

    The consequences of a true winner for the position would create a very different future Oerth indeed. Shocked
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 5:36 pm  

    illustr8or wrote:
    Mordenkainen . . . probably forsaw this move . . . which would eventually lead to future animosity/antagonism/fighting between Tenser and Rary . . . Meanwhile, Tenser slowly comes to a realization of what Rary and Mordenkainen are fighting over.


    Why do you think Tenser left the Circle? He wasn't at all happy with getting caught in the cross-fire! Evil Grin

    To my knowledge, Tenser doesn't know what Mordy and Rary are fighting over, but he knows that Rary killed him and Mordy suspected it, but didn't warn anybody. In short: Mordy let it happen to him. Razz

    illustr8or wrote:
    The fate of the world rests in the hands of some serious megalomaniacs.


    Well, Mordy wants to use the power to fend off Tharizdun. Even Boccob is concerned about Tharizdun's intentions towards Magic and the Oerth. Mordy believes he is best qualified to wield the power and is determined that no one else should have it. But, like Boccob, Mordy is True Neutral, so he's not particularly concerned about who might get hurt in the process . . . including your PCs! Evil

    As for Rary; he just wants the power to keep Mordy from having it. Meaning that Rary just wants "power!"

    See? Even the thought of "power," corrupts! Shocked

    illustr8or wrote:
    That brings me back to the Demiurge's powers . . . and what that means cosmically in relation to the gods and Greyspace?


    I've never seen the Demiurge's powers specifically outlined anywhere, but Mordy's reason for wanting those powers should give you some idea.

    Suffice it to say this: Should a God manifest upon the Oerth, the Demiurge could go "toe to toe" with Him/Her. Whether or not the Demiurge could do that "out there" is unknown, but doubtful. The Demiurge's powers are closely entwined with the Oerth. The Demiurge draws his/her powers from the Oerth.

    If the Demiurge were "standing" on Mars, or Venus . . . ?
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Sat Sep 01, 2012 6:27 pm  

    That's exactly how I'm building it, Tenser suspecting things but not knowing the full picture, just knowing what he knows, sending the PCs to thwart Rary... only to uncover the larger oerth-shattering plot Evil Grin

    I like Mordy as an uncaring, "big picture" mover and shaker, as single-minded as he thinks he must play things in order to preserve the world and the fabric of our very existence, even if that means the PCs will end up thinking he's a bit of a psychopath. Smile I'm ok with that.

    **rubs hands together**

    Thanks!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:07 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Argon wrote:
    I also like Maldin website. Though it does have a retro feel to it.


    That's because Maldin is a 2e fan. That and the fact that he hasn't added to his site in some years. Laughing


    Oooh! It's like a knife in the kidney! Evil Grin

    Hey Maldin! Where the heck are the rest of those Irongate maps?

    Oooh! Now it's being twisted! Razz

    Pretty good responses on the Demiurge. If there is anything left to dredge up, it probably isn't much.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:09 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Oooh! It's like a knife in the kidney!


    Maldin and I Skype everyday, so I can promised that he gets knifed fairly often . . . but is currently "lost" in the World of Diablo III! Cry

    Cebrion wrote:
    Hey Maldin! Where the heck are the rest of those Irongate maps? . . . Oooh! Now it's being twisted!


    Thanks, Cebrion! I'll be sure to bring that point up today! Evil Grin

    Cebrion wrote:
    Pretty good responses on the Demiurge. If there is anything left to dredge up, it probably isn't much.


    Much appreciated, I didn't realize I was that "up" on the Demiurge. It would be nice if there were more on the position in "canon." Cool
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:42 am  

    There is just not much on the Demiurge.

    Of course this would now be just about the time that Rasgon shows up and posts a 10,000 word tell-all exposé on the Demiurge (crosses fingers). Laughing
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:45 am  

    Everything I know about the Demiurge I learned from the Gord Greyhawk site, so thanks for this. of the Gord books I've only read the short stories in Night Errant and he doesn't appear in any of those.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:41 am  

    Yeah, not much there and what is there pertains to Basiliv's personality and not the position of "Demiurge." Sad
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:30 am  

    I know Basiliv as the Demi-urge in the Gord books is separate from the Jaran Krimeah as the Black One, but the info that Mystic gives above about the Demi-urge does mesh well with the info about the ruler of the Valley in the LGG.

    Referring to the former valley elf king - "...valley elves were once ruled by a king of their race who held his authority under the guise of a transcendent calling, though no deity was ever evoked by name"

    And the Valley itself - "Even in ancient times, it was felt to be dominated by an awful and foreboding presence."

    It has always troubled me that the Valley Elves would accept a human ruler, no matter how powerful a mage he was. But if they're beholden to some kind of mystical power that chooses someone to act as, basically its avatar, it now makes sense to me that they would accept him if that is the person whom the power that resides in the Valley selected.

    So what is the source of this power? I'm working on a heretical idea for my campaign that it is a power of nature. Maybe THE power of nature and the world itself. This I tie into the apocryphal story about the Cup and Talisman of Al Akbar having been stolen from Ekbir in 219 CY by "...strange elves who were as tall as men. They escaped pursuit astride giant eagles, traveling above the Plains of the Paynims toward the distant Barrier Peaks."

    I see the Cup and Talisman as a powerful artifact like the Holy Grail, tied to this mysterious power we're all talking about. There's some pretty obvious fertility symbolism here. The Cup is the Mother (Beory) the Talisman is the Father (Al Asran/Pelor), so it makes (some) sense that Al Asran/Pelor would have the authority to have given the Cup and Talisman to the Paynim for some unknown reason, post the Invoked Devastation. Then, when it became just an object of veneration, i.e. not really being used by those Baklunish for the purpose for which it was intended, the Power of the Valley would have the elves steal it for safe-keeping until it needed to be used again. And I'm working toward a place in my ongoing campaign where at some point it will be needed again, which is where the party goes to the Valley of the Mage as part of a Quest for the Holy Grail-type quest. This all hasn't really gelled yet, but it's where I'm going with it. Or maybe I'm just crazy.
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

    Send private message
    Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:50 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I know Basiliv as the Demi-urge in the Gord books is separate from the Jaran Krimeah as the Black One, but the info that Mystic gives above about the Demi-urge does mesh well with the info about the ruler of the Valley in the LGG.


    Some of the info that I've given above comes from Maldin's personal campaign and is not "canon."

    That said: No where has it been claimed that Jaran Krimeah is, or ever was, the Demiurge. I do not recall where it was written, but I remember a couple of "canon" authors of the LGG stating that, Jaran Krimeah went to the valley after Basiliv had departed . . . for "parts unknown."

    (Gary destroyed the Oerth in his last Gord novel to separate himself from TSR and TSR wasn't anxious to keep some of Gary's characters)

    One of the reasons given for Jaran "leaving" for the Plane of Shadow was that he could not attain the position of Demiurge and he finally realized that fact and thus chose to "seek power" elsewhere, i.e. the Plane of Shadow.

    Why the Valley Elves would choose Jaran as their "ruler" is anybody's guess. Seemed weird to me too. As for Basiliv, he may have been their ruler by default, as in: He was the omnipotent Demiurge and graciously allowed the elves to settle there, rather than "running them off."

    I've no idea as to that. Sorry. Sad
    _________________
    Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
    Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
    Posts: 95
    From: San Diego, CA

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:22 pm  

    I always assumed that Jaran and the Valley Elves were creatures on the same side of the coin, with regards to their similar backgrounds of isolation and being cast out?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Sep 05, 2012 4:25 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I remember a couple of "canon" authors of the LGG stating that, Jaran Krimeah went to the valley after Basiliv had departed . . . for "parts unknown." (Gary destroyed the Oerth in his last Gord novel to separate himself from TSR and TSR wasn't anxious to keep some of Gary's characters)


    No TSR/WotC source mentions Basiliv (a name probably derived from the Greek Basileus, or king), since he's a character created for the post-TSR New Infinities Gord books and WotC had no rights to him. WotC had no ability to "keep" characters they never owned. I don't think it's true that they weren't "anxious" to keep the characters they did own, however. That's speculation without any basis.

    As far as I can tell, you're thinking of the following bits from the LGG (both on page 127):

    "The drow hint that the valley elves allowed themselves to be bound in servitude to a powerful master, in exchange for knowledge from beyond the known planes."

    "The most notable encounter with the valley elves occurred shortly after the turn of the century, when the elven king arrived unexpectedly at the grand duke's castle in Gorna. The king brought his entire royal house into the country, unchallenged by either the duke's followers or the elves of eastern Geoff. The valley elf king and his retinue were allowed to enter the city, and the king was granted a private audience with the grand duke. The following dawn, the king and his retinue departed, and the host of valley elves was observed traveling southward into the Crystalmists, never to be seen again."

    I don't think either the "powerful master" or the valley elf king are supposed to be references to Basiliv. You'd have to ask Mona, Holian, and Weining what they had in mind, but this is a separate continuity from the post-TSR Gord books and it seems like new ideas rather than references to old ones. You could decide for your own campaign that one or both of these figures might be Basiliv, but I don't think that was the authors' intention. I assume the valley elf king was an elf.

    In Oerth Journal #18, the Demiurge was said to have entered the Vale of the Mage for the first time in 199 CY and abandoned it in 352 CY. The last King of the Valley Elves dies in 399 CY, identifying him as a separate individual. In this source, leadership of the valley elves defaults to the Valley Elf King after the Demiurge disappears. The "knowledge beyond the known planes" is evidently a reference to the discovery of a planar bleed from the Plane of Shadow 4000-5000 years ago.

    In Gygax's own books, "demiurge" likely meant the same thing it meant in the Mythus book for his Dangerous Journeys RPG.

    Page 404: "Demiurge: This appellation is used to designate an individual who is both a hermeturge (q.v.) and a savant (q.v.) and has advanced his or her abilities beyond the usual in both areas so as to attain the superhuman (a Power, Quasi-Deity, or Demigod). Prior to moving beyond the ken of humankind, such an individual is called a magus (q.v.). All are attained great status, but few of this bent are interested in that."

    Page 405: "Hermeturge: An adept (q.v.) (Alchemy, Astrology, and Conjuration) with abilities of Divination, Metaphysics, and Pantheology as well. The hermeturge is a highly influential person usually of aristocratic status and office."

    Page 407: "Savant: This term is utilized to denote an individual who is a Mage (Full Practictioner) but has knowledge (but not full Heka channeling capacity) in Priestcraeft-Religion, and abilities in Demonology, Mysticism, and Occultism as well as a high intellect and broad learning elsewhere. Savants are highly regarded, serve in many positions, and are of class levels 6 and above."

    At the end of Gygax's novel Dance of Demons, Gellor became the new Demiurge of the world of Yarth.

    Page 423: "Well, upon reflection, he was himself now a 'personage', one to whom even emperors bowed. This business of being Demiurge was still strange and a bit uncomfortable for him, but considering the alternative, there was no comparison. "I'll get used to it..."

    Page 424: "This new Demiurge of ours does things right. The whole of our land of Hy Brazeal is filled with tales of his greatness."

    "That's so, and have you heard of his exploits? For a Personage, our Gellor is one tough man!"

    "Not man, oaf! He is Demiurge!"

    Basiliv himself was Demiurge of Oerth, and one of the Lords of Balance. He had not, in the Gord books, disappeared: Jaran Krimeah, the Black One, didn't exist in Gygax's novels, since Jaran was a later creation that first appeared in Greyhawk Adventures after Gygax left the company. In Gygax's writings, Basiliv was the only Mage of the Vale. In the WotC/TSR canon, Jaran Krimeah was the only Mage of the Vale. There have been various fan attempts to reconcile the two, as in Oerth Journal #18 and Maldin's writings.

    Note that in Gygax's short story (written with K.R. Bourgoine) "The Return of Gord" in Dragon #344, the valley elves are ruled by a Mirror Queen, who had long ago lost a magical robe to Zagig Yragerne in a wager.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:47 am  

    Took a bit, but there we have it. Laughing

    Nice little collection of Demiurge tidbits (that being all there really is) in this thread. Cool

    Will it perhaps spawn an article from somebody? We'll have to wait and see. Happy
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
    Posts: 1846
    From: Mt. Smolderac

    Send private message
    Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:41 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Will it perhaps spawn an article from somebody? We'll have to wait and see. Happy


    One more for the heresy file for me!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:46 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    Will it perhaps spawn an article from somebody? We'll have to wait and see. Happy


    One more for the heresy file for me!


    Nothing wrong with a little heresy now and then! Evil Grin
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.34 Seconds