I am interested how each of you DM the 'mindless' undead like skeletons and zombies with respect to just how...mindless and stupid...they act, ESPECIALLY in combat situations.
For instance, here are a few examples:
Do they blunder over cliffs or pits single-mindedly in pursuit of victims?
Would they use missile weapons to attack enemies who are out of range (flying, higher ground, out of reach, etc)?
Would they walk into a raging fire to destroy or attack foes?
Do they continue to rend and rip apart dead opponents to the exclusion of attacking new targets?
These are just a few of a WHOLE array of potential situations. Granted, any directions of a Commanding priest would be taken literally in execution, and any commands must be basic to be followed by the mindless undead. I am merely wondering how truly obtuse, single-minded (excuse the inherent irony), and otherwise strategically 'clueless' you all play zombies and skeletons. All other undead have some basic intelligence all the way up to the truly frightening mental capacities of spectres, vampires, and liches. This question does not pertain to such beings, but rather their "lower" brethren without a mind...
Do they blunder over cliffs or pits single-mindedly in pursuit of victims?
Yes.
Lanthorn wrote:
Would they use missile weapons to attack enemies who are out of range (flying, higher ground, out of reach, etc)?
if they have them, though I want to say that I recall it saying somewhere that mindless undead lack the coordination/intelligence to use missile weapons. I see that the MM specifically mentions that ju-ju zombies are dextrous enough to use missile weapons, which more than implies that regular zombies are not, but it still sounds like a familiar thing other than for this reason, so I need to hunt that down. Mindless undead that have missile weapons (and that can use them), and that have been ordered to attack something that has then started flying, would then use their missile weapons so as to continue following their orders.
Lanthorn wrote:
Would they walk into a raging fire to destroy or attack foes?
Yes. If their orders are too simple, mindless undead may very well carry them out regardless of their actions leading to their own destruction.
Lanthorn wrote:
Do they continue to rend and rip apart dead opponents to the exclusion of attacking new targets?
Yes, if their directions are to "Attack that fighter!" then they might continuously do so, or they might attack their target until it is no longer a threat and then just stand there. So, a necromancer that isn't an idiot would instead give the command, "Attack THEM!" instead, or issue an additional command (if they are able to) if the situation changes. the only exception I would make is if the undead were attacked then they would stop what they were doing and attack back, just like they do when they are under the effects of turning and are attacked. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Yeah, I was thinking that mindless undead are just that obtuse and perhaps I've not played them quite that dense.
I imagine that it takes continuous direction from the commanding cleric or necromancer to prevent them from completely obliterating themselves for 'dumb' actions.
Here's a current scene that I've got:
Flying foe, clearly out of reach of zombie troops, who are walking to a precipice. The undead cannot get to the flying enemy whatsoever. Do they stop at the edge and wait til the enemy gets closer...or drop off the side, regardless?
By the way, you are right about the ju-jus (I've had the 'pleasure' of DMing some as enemies...he now refers to them as 'iron zombies' ) and their ability to use missile weapons. I was mainly referring to skeleton and zombie use of hurled projectiles (rocks, javelins, spears, etc) instead of crossbows and bows. My bad. Do you think that these items are within the 'grasp' of the mindless undead to use...as with my scene above where the target is clearly out of reach? Or do they need to be directed to use such ideas?
Having pondered this very difficulty, I take a different approach to the 'mindless' quality of undead (and other monsters).
Note that golems and other such automata are also considered 'mindless'. If skeletons, zombies, and golems are truly mindless, how do they understand their instructions? How do they know that attacking a target means using their limbs or carried weapons? How do they know how to walk? How can they see, hear, or otherwise detect their opponents? Being truly mindless would make them nothing more than inanimate objects (or robots). So, we need a better definition of such beings' state.
Instead of true mindlessness, I envision a cosmos filled with magical entity. Some planes, like the negative material/energy plane are full of an evil malevalence composed of pureed portions of a nearly infinite number of evil souls that have existed within that plane, be they humanoid, monstrous, alien, or otherwise. Each time a spellcaster conjures the magic to animate a skeleton or zombie, they effectively scoop a small portion of this evil awareness out of that plane and place it within the material host, binding it to that bit of flesh and/or bone. Each scoop contains millionth parts of perhaps a few thousand souls. Thus, there isn't even enough to compose one complete soul in each 'mindless' undead. None of the millionth parts is enough for a single individual to even be aware that a part of it has been used in such a fashion.
There is enough awareness within the shell for it to understand the magically communicated commands of the caster and the 'how to' of moving and attacking. This also allows the mindless undead to recognize obviously deadly obstacles like a pit, cliff, or firey chasm, but not to search for traps or think to look for invisible opponents unless they're actually attacked by one.
Golems are similarly endowed with awareness, but their's comes from somewhere else, like an elemental plane. Thus, they can act according to instructions and react to obvious obstacles and battle situations, but cannot make wise tactical decisions (like cooperating with another golem to outflank an opponent) or problem solve.
Such a minor level of intelligence allows for a believable reason for such a creature to be able to react to what it sees, understand commands, and carry them out within the confines of the body it possesses without acting like a truly intelligent foe.
By the way, you are right about the ju-jus (I've had the 'pleasure' of DMing some as enemies...he now refers to them as 'iron zombies' ) and their ability to use missile weapons. I was mainly referring to skeleton and zombie use of hurled projectiles (rocks, javelins, spears, etc) instead of crossbows and bows. My bad. Do you think that these items are within the 'grasp' of the mindless undead to use...as with my scene above where the target is clearly out of reach? Or do they need to be directed to use such ideas?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that they are not, thus why that exception is mentioned in the ju-ju zombies entry. Can't remember where I read it though. Could be hold over from 1E, but I am not sure. I would certainly allow them to drop rocks on enemies, but probably not use missile weapons, as that requires a degree of coordination that may be beyond that of a skeleton, and certainly beyond a zombie to accomplish. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
SX, I liked your addition/perspective how you handle the mindless undead, along with an explanation. Good logic, especially how you justify your stance by referring to 'mindless' automatons!
Cebrion, as always, thank you for your input, too.
For me there is a big difference betyween whether they are being controlled or not.
'Wild' undead as being driven entirely by some overwhelming need. To extinguish life, to feast on the blood/brain/dry rations of others, to guard a tomb or to continue fighting in the battle they once fell in. WHatever the drive is it leaves no room for much else thus opening a door is beyond them but ripping through it to achieve their goal is not. The think that what makes mindless undead cool is that they are relentless. Hack of an arm they still come at you, pour burning oil on the floor they walk straight through it to achieve their need. However I wouldn't have them jumping off a cliff to try and reach a flying foe. Whilst they might not feel pain and would walk through fire to reach their goal I think they possess a base animal instinct of preservation and wouldn't perform knowingly suicidal actions. Maybe they are a bit like brain damaged rabid animals?
Also I can't imagine they have great memories so if a party can make the mindless undead lose sight of them for long enough I'd think they'd just shuffle back instintively to where they came from or just stay where they forgot about what they were doing.
Controlled undead are different - it all goes down to the command. They would take everything literally. "Follow those gnomes until you have killed them" may cause the undead to run off a ledge. "Bring me the cute pointy hats of those gnomes" might not.
If controlled they do whatever they are told to do or whatever they can to fulfil an order. Their ability to reason is slightly less than a rabid animal.
Actually thinking about it - it amost makes more sense to me for undead to be created by a tiny spark of positive energy to give them just enough memory of life to function. Isn't negative energy the complete absence of life? It should speed up the decaying process hmmm.
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) and their ability to use missile weapons. I was mainly referring to skeleton and zombie use of hurled projectiles (rocks, javelins, spears, etc) instead of crossbows and bows. My bad. Do you think that these items are within the 'grasp' of the mindless undead to use...as with my scene above where the target is clearly out of reach? Or do they need to be 