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    Canonfire :: View topic - Postfest Village Project- Think Tank Edition
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    Postfest Village Project- Think Tank Edition [ Previous  1, 2]
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:24 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...As Cebrion noted in his population percentage table above -- and as is made manifest in "canon" -- the current occupants of The Pale originally fled the Great Kingdom. Those whom they absorbed, or displaced -- as is the case with the village -- were Flannae...

    -Hmmm...
    Cebrion wrote:

    ...The area of the village is claimed by Nyrond, thus they are "Nyrondese", though the Gambogefolk are effectively independent unless it is politically convenient to claim otherwise (they often reinforce a claim of Nyrondese citizenship due to the unwanted advances of the Palish). The people here are mostly the remains of Flan and Oeridians that have been pushed out of the Pale proper, where the Old Faith/nature god worship is not tolerated...

    ...any chance you've got Adri on your mind? Laughing

    The primarily Palish origin for the locals was my rationale for the (currently unique) proposal that Phyton get serious play in the village, since 1) he's mentioned in the LGG as one of the "underground" faiths of the Pale and 2) a good of wilderness development seems ideal for the place.
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:13 am  

    I understand, but I wasn't talking about deities and the like. My point was this:

    Cebrion wrote:
    Flan: 32% (85)
    Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
    Oeridian: 14% (37)
    Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
    Elves: 3% (8)
    Half-elves: 8% (21)
    Gnomes: 5% (13)
    Halflings: 2% (5)
    Dwarves: 1% (3)


    Our village consist of 85 persons who are of Flan descent and 78 that are of Flan/Oerid descent. For lack of a better way to say it, you have (basically) 124 people -- or almost half the village -- that are Flan.

    Why would the village have -- for example -- a "Suel" name?

    The "Palish" that drove our villagers from The Pale are nothing less than the Oeridians that fled the Great Kingdom. I don't see our villagers adopting the language, customs or names of the people that technically drove them from their homes five generations ago. Nyrond, the Great Kingdom and The Pale were all Flannae lands. The Oeridians have ever been the "invaders" of said lands. The Oeridians from the Great Kingdom that founded the "present day" Pale were already Pholtan "fanatics."

    Of course, there are the (basically) 76 people who are Oeridian. So I think the village would have more of a "Flan" feel, with strong Oeridian overtones.

    Still, that's not to say that some of the "Wood" names wouldn't fit the template I've presented. Wink
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:44 pm  

    Using jamesdglick's suggestions for inspiration, I've come up with some village name suggestions for consideration:

    Old English(Anglo/Saxon): Modern English translation
    Wuduhaefen: woodhaven
    Baelwudu: woodpyre
    Adfaru: way, or path, to a funeral pyre
    Wuduburn: woodwell
    Wuducwylla: woodspring
    Acholtcwylla: oak(forest)spring
    Acholthaefen: oak(forest)haven
    Burnhaefen: wellhaven
    Rnaerac: an oak that serves as part of a boundary
    Wudubaeru: forest grove
    Wealdbaeru: forest grove
    Wealdhaefen: forest grove haven
    Wuduwald/Wuduweald: forest
    Frithsum: safe/fortified
    Geborgen: defended/safe/secure

    I simply used a modern English to Old English translator to come up with words that sounded like they'd make for cool names for our village. The options are nearly limitless - especially if you consider all the various languages we could translate into. I suggest that any American Indian language, Old Celtic/Gaelic, or Scandinavian might be the best choices, but anything that sounds cool and has an acceptable meaning is a good choice in my mind.

    SirXaris
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:28 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I understand, but I wasn't talking about deities and the like. My point was this:

    Cebrion wrote:
    Flan: 32% (85)
    Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
    Oeridian: 14% (37)
    Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
    Elves: 3% (8)
    Half-elves: 8% (21)
    Gnomes: 5% (13)
    Halflings: 2% (5)
    Dwarves: 1% (3)


    Our village consist of 85 persons who are of Flan descent and 78 that are of Flan/Oerid descent. For lack of a better way to say it, you have (basically) 124 people -- or almost half the village -- that are Flan.

    Why would the village have -- for example -- a "Suel" name?

    The "Palish" that drove our villagers from The Pale are nothing less than the Oeridians that fled the Great Kingdom. I don't see our villagers adopting the language, customs or names of the people that technically drove them from their homes five generations ago. Nyrond, the Great Kingdom and The Pale were all Flannae lands. The Oeridians have ever been the "invaders" of said lands. The Oeridians from the Great Kingdom that founded the "present day" Pale were already Pholtan "fanatics."

    Of course, there are the (basically) 76 people who are Oeridian. So I think the village would have more of a "Flan" feel, with strong Oeridian overtones.

    Still, that's not to say that some of the "Wood" names wouldn't fit the template I've presented. Wink


    -IIRC, most people in the Pale speak Common with a little Flan; no one is really a Nyrondese speaker (I don't have my references with me, though). I think the thing that everyone in the 'ville has in common was that they didn't fit in back in the Pale. But that doesn't mean that they didn't keep the same language and naming habits they had in the Pale (which I assume to be Common) particularly since the only languages they'd be adoptimng in their new home might be Elvish or Gnomish (an exotic possibility).

    I guess it comes down to whether our villagers spoke a different language (or dialect) from most Palish. FWIW, my guess is no. In this case, I'm also assuming that Palish Common is sort of like English, based on their place names.


    SirXaris wrote:
    Using jamesdglick's suggestions for inspiration, I've come up with some village name suggestions for consideration:

    Old English(Anglo/Saxon): Modern English translation
    Wuduhaefen: woodhaven
    Baelwudu: woodpyre
    Adfaru: way, or path, to a funeral pyre
    Wuduburn: woodwell
    Wuducwylla: woodspring
    Acholtcwylla: oak(forest)spring
    Acholthaefen: oak(forest)haven
    Burnhaefen: wellhaven
    Rnaerac: an oak that serves as part of a boundary
    Wudubaeru: forest grove
    Wealdbaeru: forest grove
    Wealdhaefen: forest grove haven
    Wuduwald/Wuduweald: forest
    Frithsum: safe/fortified
    Geborgen: defended/safe/secure

    I simply used a modern English to Old English translator to come up with words that sounded like they'd make for cool names for our village. The options are nearly limitless - especially if you consider all the various languages we could translate into. I suggest that any American Indian language, Old Celtic/Gaelic, or Scandinavian might be the best choices, but anything that sounds cool and has an acceptable meaning is a good choice in my mind.

    SirXaris


    -The only place in the Flaneass I've seen use "hard" Anglo-Saxon is the Suel in the Pomarj. Maybe soften them a little (Anglicize the Anglo-Saxon? )? e.g., Woodburn, Woodkwell or Burnhaven?

    BTW, The Anglo Saxon "Cwylla" must have the same root as the German "Quelle". I always assumed Quelle was a borrowing from Latin. Or maybe the root borrowed it from Latin, in which case it would have to go WAY back. Huh. Always weird to see cognates like that.

    I don't see anything on language in Cebrion's introductory post, so we need either a ruling or a poll.
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:14 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    I don't see anything on language in Cebrion's introductory post, so we need either a ruling or a poll.


    Why don't we just let anyone that wants to, submit a suggestion (or suggestions) and when we've gotten enough submitions, Cebrion can create a poll to vote on them? It could even be the last poll before we begin writing. Plenty of time to submit names.

    SirXaris
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:39 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Old English(Anglo/Saxon): Modern English translation.


    I like the thought of that. All of those look good. Cool

    jamesdglick wrote:
    IIRC, most people in the Pale speak Common with a little Flan . . .


    That's where you and I -- and most here would -- disagree. That is; most would disagree with me. Evil Grin

    In my game, I give everyone (PCs) one "extra" language. Why? Because a PC born and raised in Keoland is going to speak Keolandish!

    What? The people in France don't speak French? You're kidding, right?

    In my Greyhawk it is "Common" that is not spoken by everyone. Merchants and businessmen would speak "Common," naturally, they usually do business across the length and breadth of the Flanaess, or with people (PCs) who travel the length and breadth of the Flanaess. (Think Innkeepers, et al)

    But the little NPC nobody farmer in Nyrond? He speaks Nyrondese and only Nyrondese. Since he probably never traveled more than twelve miles from his home, he never had any reason to learn a "foreign" language like "Common." Businessmen in Nyrond would speak Nyrondese when talking to local "farmers." They would use "Common" to speak with their fellow businessmen from, say, Furyondy (et al).

    EGG and company created "Common" as a simple way to explain how various peoples could communicate. But to say that all "nobodies" can speak two languages -- Common and their native tongue -- is to suggest an "education" level that we don't even have in our modern day Real World.

    That's why I'm not suggesting languages for our village NPCs. That's going to be a decision that each DM needs to make for their own game. But the people are predominantly Flan and -- according to Cebrion -- they left The Pale five generations ago. Given that a generation is twenty years, that makes our village some one hundred years old.

    These are not "recent" emigrants from The Pale.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:19 am  

    The language is not all that important, which is why you don't see it talked about in modules much unless they take place in some out of the way locale where the languages being spoken would be rare for PCs to know, like the GDQ series sites. Fortunately we are in the land of Ye Olde Common Tongue. If any other languages are spoken, they can be mentioned in an article. There would likely be some Flan spoken (but it would be "out of style" to some degree), and Old Oeridian would be rather rare. Ancient Suloise would pretty much be right out, and anybody that can speak Ancient Baklunish will not be speaking it at all, because if such an individual is in this village then they are obviously in some sort of witness protection program. Laughing Nyrondese is the only real possible regional dialect that might be present, and even that would probably not be heard. Remember, the people here are very independent and are suspicious of outside influences, so even minor use of Nyrondese might be suspect. Anybody who knows this language will probably only speak it in the privacy of their own homes. The people of the community are a bit guarded, but they aren't quite paranoid...at least until somebody gives them a reason to be. Wink

    That's enough on this topic though. It is perfectly okay to not touch on languages and just hit the highlights, and leave it to DMs to season things to taste (as they will do anyways).
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    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:05 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The language is not all that important . . . Nyrondese is the only real possible regional dialect that might be present . . .


    No worries, Ceb. "Language" was merely being discussed -- and highlighted -- in regards to what name the village would bare. As you pointed out in regards to the Suel and Bakluni languages, our village would hardly have a Suel or Bakluni based name.

    But let me just add this as an explanation: As an Over-the-Road Truck Driver . . . I've been there. Literally.

    On all Indian Reservations, the children grow up speaking English -- mainly because of all the English speakers that live among them -- but this is the point "missed:" In their Reservation Schools they do not teach English -- they formally and officially teach their children their native tongue. In that regard, they have never "given in to the white man."

    Everything I read shows how most of you equate the Flan with Native North Americans. And yet, in these types of discussions you all quickly "cave" on that comparison and say that the Flan of that area don't speak Flannae, but now speak the language of their conquerors.

    And that's what I don't "buy." Wink

    But that's another discussion, one we won't have, given I am a distinct minority. Evil Grin
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:59 am  

    It would be an error to equate the Flan experience with the Native American experience. The history of Tehn in particular doesn't equate, and neither does that of the Pale.

    The people we are dealing with are mainly the Palish, and just a bit with the Tenhas. There has been admixture with the Oeridians (and just a tiny bit of Suel) in the Pale, such that speaking Common is a simple necessity because of the translation issues between the other languages. And it s not like this has been going on for centuries, bu it has, and so Common id deeply ingrained among everyone, and not due to any cultural reason whatsoever. After many generations, every one will speak Common in the village, and there would be little resistance to that as Common is not an identifiably cultural language. There is no "the man" factor. Common is a trade language. If a nation does not want to be isolationist, it will necessarily need to speak Common due to how the various other languages can't really be translated directly. The Common tongue is therefore a tool- a very useful tool.

    So, buy it, because the situation isn't even remotely like being forced to talk a certain way, dress a certain way, and worship a certain way on a reservation. Common is simply a very neutral language, culturally speaking. If we were fleshing out a village near the Rovers of the Barrens then the Flan language would have a more obvious presence, but we are not.

    And so in the village those who speak Flan will be more rare, with some Flan families who have been there a long time perhaps no longer even speaking the language. Common will be the main spoken language (very few will not speak it), followed by Flan (uncommon), Oeridian (rare), Nyrondese (very rare), and Suloise (extremely rare). Nobody will likely speak Baklunish at all, as to speak a language you need to have two people to do so. I guess there could be one crazy Baklunish dude who talks to himself (and gets answers back!). Okay, maybe not, as even with just that the village would come off as be a bit too "metropolitan". Laughing The villagers who are pretty much guaranteed to be able to speak Flan are those who are Tenha refugees, but those will be the more recent arrivals (i.e. part of the latter time period "extra credit" work). If people end up statting out languages for folks, keep these things in mind.

    Anyways, the village should have a Common name, like Hardbark, Leafhome, Darkwood, Manbearpig, etc.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:15 am  

    I understand your point . . . I just don't agree with it.

    But that is a "game mechanics" matter and I'll play it as I see fit . . . just as you will. Cool
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:40 pm  

    Yeah, I get that. The Common tongue is simply a contrivance to make it easier for everyone to speak to each other anyways.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:57 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...Everything I read shows how most of you equate the Flan with Native North Americans. And yet, in these types of discussions you all quickly "cave" on that comparison and say that the Flan of that area don't speak Flannae, but now speak the language of their conquerors...


    -Depends.

    The Geoffites are obviously Welsh, but that might be outside influence.

    The Rovers just scream northern Plains Indian to me, except the use a lot of light infantry; maybe the transitional period ca. AD 1700, when they were still integrating the horse.

    The Tehna always struck me as an Inka/Armenian cross.

    So...

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...On all Indian Reservations, the children grow up speaking English -- mainly because of all the English speakers that live among them -- but this is the point "missed:" In their Reservation Schools they do not teach English -- they formally and officially teach their children their native tongue. In that regard, they have never "given in to the white man."]...


    ...there are two questions, the first from above. If the Palish Flan are like Indians (I think they are), then which Indians? I think they'd be more on like Andean Indians, FWIW.

    Even if the Plaish Flan are like US/Canadian Indians, then you still have different types.

    After that, is their attitude that of the reservation? The closest thing to a Flan reservation in the NE Flaneass is the Duchy of Tehn (pre-GH Wars), and that was voluntary. The Palish Flan, OTOH, seem to live side by side with the Oeridians, day by day. Indians (and part-Indians) who do that generally learn English as their first language, and many don't even bother to learn anything else.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...The people we are dealing with are mainly the Palish, and just a bit with the Tenhas. There has been admixture with the Oeridians (and just a tiny bit of Suel) in the Pale, such that speaking Common is a simple necessity because of the translation issues between the other languages...


    -Which is sort of where I'd go.

    However...

    Having seen these postings last night, I checked some of my reference materials before coming in today.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer states that the Flan are "relatively unmixed" with the Oeridians (p. 81). OTOH, the WOG Fantasy Setting (i.e., the Boxed Setting, which I sometimes mislabel as the WOG Gazeteer) says that "...the citizens of the Theocracy of the Pale are primarily hybrids... [of] Flan/Oeridian [extraction]..." (p. 13).

    Canon Fight! Evil Grin

    I'd note the words "relatively" and "primarily":

    "Primarily" means more than 50%, but less than 100%, and probably less than 90%.

    "Relatively" means less than expected. In this case, less than what the writer would have expected after 200+ of Aerdian immigrants populating the Pale, and less than 700+ years of Nyrondese in the neighborhood.

    The writer also doesn't describe the degree of "hybridization".

    You could argue that the box set was written "in character", and could be fallible, which I think is reasonable. You could also argue the same for the LGG (I won't). But to square the circle, I'd prefer to say that 60% of the population is a noticeable Flan/Oerid mix (which could be as little as a 1/4th or 1/8th admixture one way or the other; it would still be noticeable), while the remainder are not (my grandmother told me I'm 1/32nd Flan..." Confused Laughing ).
    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:23 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    After that, is their attitude that of the reservation? The closest thing to a Flan reservation . . .


    We begin to digress and need to get back on track, but let me say this to clarify:

    Pick an Indian tribe, any Indian tribe . . . it's attitude.

    The "tribe" is business minded, so that most Indian Reservations have truck stops. You meet them and talk to them as you would other peoples. My point is, they refuse to be fully assimilated into the "White Man's" culture.

    Jackson marched "the five tribes" to Oklahoma. Result? Try spending a $20 bill on those reservations. They refuse it . . . because of Jackson's actions all those years ago.

    I perceive the Flan rejecting Oeridian culture, refusing to become like their conquerors . . . even after all these centuries. Thus, like our own Indian cultures, they refuse to give up their "native language" and freely use it among themselves.

    But, as I said, I am in the minority and it's dependent upon Game Mechanics anyway . . . meaning each DM can play it as he sees fit.

    Now, I'm going to get back on topic. Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:57 am  

    Well of course many Flan (and others) will use their cultural language among themselves. Not everyone though. Everyone speaks Common. Many others also speak Flan. Fewer speak Oeridian. Even fewer than that speak Suloise or Nyrondese. Nobody speaks Baklunish. I think you are saying the same thing I am.
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...The people we are dealing with are mainly the Palish, and just a bit with the Tenhas. There has been admixture with the Oeridians (and just a tiny bit of Suel) in the Pale, such that speaking Common is a simple necessity because of the translation issues between the other languages...

    -Which is sort of where I'd go.

    However...

    Having seen these postings last night, I checked some of my reference materials before coming in today.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer states that the Flan are "relatively unmixed" with the Oeridians (p. 81). OTOH, the WOG Fantasy Setting (i.e., the Boxed Setting, which I sometimes mislabel as the WOG Gazeteer) says that "...the citizens of the Theocracy of the Pale are primarily hybrids... [of] Flan/Oeridian [extraction]..." (p. 13).

    Canon Fight! Evil Grin

    I'd note the words "relatively" and "primarily":

    "Primarily" means more than 50%, but less than 100%, and probably less than 90%.

    "Relatively" means less than expected. In this case, less than what the writer would have expected after 200+ of Aerdian immigrants populating the Pale, and less than 700+ years of Nyrondese in the neighborhood.

    The writer also doesn't describe the degree of "hybridization".

    You could argue that the box set was written "in character", and could be fallible, which I think is reasonable. You could also argue the same for the LGG (I won't). But to square the circle, I'd prefer to say that 60% of the population is a noticeable Flan/Oerid mix (which could be as little as a 1/4th or 1/8th admixture one way or the other; it would still be noticeable), while the remainder are not (my grandmother told me I'm 1/32nd Flan..." Confused Laughing ).

    One doesn't need to argue anything, as the LGG makes plenty or references to the Flan mixing with other peoples, as does the WoG (in particular regarding the Pale). There is no canon conflict.

    Anybody have anything else to add on the village though?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:37 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...One doesn't need to argue anything, as the LGG makes plenty or references to the Flan mixing with other peoples, as does the WoG (in particular regarding the Pale). There is no canon conflict...


    -Well, I said there's no canon conflict if you use my interpreation, but someone else (e.g., Mystic-Scholar) could easily take the LGG's quote that the Palish Flan are "relatively unmixed" and argue that that means that there isn't much admixture, and I think he'd be justified to some extent. I take a different view (above), and you seem to as well. I don't have to convince you. Great. But it would be nice if I could convince M-S. If I don't, then there was no harm in laying out a canonical justification for my opinion and what seems to be your ruling.

    Using this:
    Cebrion wrote:


    After about five generations...

    Village Population (estimates, subject to modification)

    Flan: 32% (85)
    Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
    Oeridian: 14% (37)
    Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
    Elves: 3% (8)
    Half-elves: 8% (21)
    Gnomes: 5% (13)
    Halflings: 2% (5)
    Dwarves: 1% (3)

    That is for the village proper...


    ...If I understand you, then 99% of the Oeridians and the Human/Humans speak Common as a first language, the vast majority (80% -90%) of the Flan/Oerid are native Common speakers (and perhaps knowing some Flan), while most (51%-80%) of the Flan are native Common speakers, but generally knowing some Common for business purposes. M-S probably thinks this is high, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be modified a bit.

    FWIW, languages are important IMC, so knowing what language an NPC speaks, or speaks well, is a key piece of information for a village description, more important than his combat stats, really. One of my players got his PC and a bunch of NPCs cature in Orlane because he didn't speak Keolandish. I joked that counter-insurgency obviously isn't his thing djfjhdf.

    Less dramatically, if Farmer Flan has a mule to sell, but doesn't speak Common, it gives the party's Flan linguist a chance to shine.



    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Anybody have anything else to add on the village though?


    1) We have an entire thread dedicated to professions in the village. I'll post there...

    2) We've argued about what proportion of the village should be NPC class/PC class/what level. We could use more input on all those to see what sort of common ground we can find...

    3) We've done a survey:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Given that this village is a mainly populated by humans and is located in a woodland setting, and considering the natural/political environment of the area (read the thread for info on all of this), provide the following information):

    * Briefly describe FIVE locations/features you want the village to have.

    * Briefly describe THREE locations/features that you do NOT want the village to have.

    * Name TWO gods that are worshiped by many of the villagers.

    * Name FIVE other gods that are worshiped by a few of the villagers.

    * Briefly describe ONE other thing of your choice.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    That should give me plenty of information to go on, so have at it. Cool


    ...of the things the village should (and shouldn't have) and we've done a survey on deities (I'm still plugging for Phyton, since he's listed among the underground deities in LGG p. 80, along with Beory and the Oerid Aggie gods; Phyton makes the perfect pioneer god). Sutemi, Sir X, M-S, DLG, JDG, and Rasgon have all answered the survey. Besides Ceb', that leaves DM Prata, Ragr, Smillan, and Tarleton who have posted on these threads (and I assume are intersted), but have not yet answered;

    4) Alignments. Sir X is pulling for non-Lawful, and someone else (I don't remember who, and I can't find the post) wanted overwhelmingly N (True Neutral), and someone else was looking at the N to CG quadrant. Rasgon seems to be looking at a faint touch of Evil. I'd go for a majority aligned N, then NG, then CG, then CN, then the rest. "NG" includes NG, NG (CG), NG (N), etc.

    5) Name that village!
    6) Maybe a thread that brings the survey and poll results to one place?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:46 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Well, I said there's no canon conflict if you use my interpretation, but someone else (e.g., Mystic-Scholar) could easily take the LGG's quote that the Palish Flan are "relatively unmixed" and argue that that means that there isn't much admixture, and I think he'd be justified to some extent. I take a different view (above), and you seem to as well. I don't have to convince you. Great. But it would be nice if I could convince M-S. If I don't, then there was no harm in laying out a canonical justification for my opinion and what seems to be your ruling.

    The Pale population is not a homogenous whole. Some areas will favor one group, some areas another, and some areas both. Some are even intolerant and either don't mix, or are composed of only one group. The LGG focuses more on the latter than the former, but there is still room for every sort of condition.

    Most of the villagers come from the area of the Pale, but the majority of them originate from bloodlines from an earlier time when the Pale was not exactly what it has become in the LGG, or even in the WoGG. The Pale of then is not exactly the Pale of now, and the village has been there roughly 100 years, so the first villagers of then are not like the Palish of the now. Everyone needs to keep this in mind.

    But...this isn't the Pale anyways, and so the mix in the village isn't FO, but closer to Fo. The reason for that is somewhat because the Flan gods, and the Flan themselves, have not exactly been ascendent in the Pale, and so they are mostly the ones who have been booted to the fringes over time. Along with the Flan also went some Oeridians and Flan/Oerids (and a very few other mixed folks), the latter simply because they are not well accepted in the Pale. In later years we have an influx of pure Flan in the form of Tenha refugees, and so the village has the racial make-up that it does. Let's just say that the village does not have quite the level of racial hang-ups that the LGG Pale has regarding non-Oerids. Haughty Oerids (haughty anybody really) visiting the village are almost definitely not going to be received well (probably why they don't much like the Nyrondese either), though haughty Flan would not be well received either. This sort of attitude just won't fly in the presence of these folks, and is likely to bring the offender a good ol' country style whoopin'. Razz

    Oh, and the Nyrondese language will be slightly present, as Nyrond ruled the Pale for nearly a century until 450 CY, which is two generations before the founding of the village. Not enough time has really passed for what is a commoner's language to be purged from use, and if Nyrondese speakers (having formed attachments to the land for nearly 100 years themselves) were persecuted once the Pale became independent, exactly where would they go? Maybe they would choose to go live in an out of the way place, such as a village...on the fringes of the Pale...in an area nominally claimed by Nyrond. If only there was such a place... Laughing

    If people want me to put up some language numbers guidelines, I'd be more than happy to do that. As to alignments, using the ethnic letter system as a base, the village would be Ng- mostly Neutral alignments, with a minority of Good alignments. Evil individuals, if there are any, would not be tolerated, and so these people, if there are any, would make an effort to not draw unwanted scrutiny.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:04 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    ...Most of the villagers come from the area of the Pale, but the majority of them originate from bloodlines from an earlier time when the Pale was not exactly what it has become in the LGG, or even in the WoGG. The Pale of then is not exactly the Pale of now, and the village has been there roughly 100 years, so the first villagers of then are not like the Palish of the now. Everyone needs to keep this in mind...


    -Hmmm... Are you advocating a deliberate founding, with (say) 90% of the village having been there for over 80 years? I would go with the founding inn in CY 487, followed quickly by the blacksmith (within a year or two), then some food producers over the next decade, and the rest trickling since CY 500, which seems in line with this:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...the Flan gods, and the Flan themselves, have not exactly been ascendent in the Pale, and so they are mostly the ones who have been booted to the fringes over time. Along with the Flan also went some Oeridians and Flan/Oerids (and a very few other mixed folks), the latter simply because they are not well accepted in the Pale. In later years we have an influx of pure Flan in the form of Tenha refugees, and so the village has the racial make-up that it does...


    ...anyway, although you wouldn't very many Tenha show up until 582-583...

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Oh, and the Nyrondese language will be slightly present, as Nyrond ruled the Pale for nearly a century until 450 CY, which is two generations before the founding of the village. Not enough time has really passed for what is a commoner's language to be purged from use, and if Nyrondese speakers (having formed attachments to the land for nearly 100 years themselves) were persecuted once the Pale became independent, exactly where would they go...


    -Immigrant languages (and these are all immigrants) only survive in a minority setting if the immigrants take power (e.g., the Anglo-Saxons in Britain, the Spanish in Mexico), or if they are ghettoized (e.g., ethnic areas of US cities, Jewish ghettos in European towns). I don't think either would be the case here. It's too small to have that many subsections. If the entire village is a functional ghetto, then the more likely language would be Flan. People of Nyrondese descent might hold on to Nyrondese as a secondary language; it would come it handy for anyone coming in from the south.

    So, if they don't speak Common as their first language, it would be Flan. Common (to speak with other villagers and outsiders), Flan (to speak with other villagers), and Nyrondese (to speak with outsiders) would be the most common secondary languages, then Elvish and Gnomish in order to speak with their woodland friends...

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...If people want me to put up some language numbers guidelines, I'd be more than happy to do that...


    Cebrion wrote:
    ...the mix in the village isn't FO, but closer to Fo...


    -I have no argument with this. Anyone else?

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...As to alignments, using the ethnic letter system as a base, the village would be Ng- mostly Neutral alignments, with a minority of Good alignments. Evil individuals, if there are any, would not be tolerated, and so these people, if there are any, would make an effort to not draw unwanted scrutiny.


    -I have no big argument with this either, except maybe a little chaotic, say N (CG)? Anyone else?

    I'd add that any "evil" people will probably still align themselves with the goodies, push comes to shove. No one in the village is rooting for the bugbears. No one is worshipping an evil deity, unless you want to use Rasgon's Old Religion/Ehlonna/Nocticula syncreatic faith, in which case, everyone else is doing it too (btw, not my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice, but I can work with it). Evil probably wouldn't mean serial killer. "Evil" might mean that they wouldn't hesitate to use violence to settle disputes (particularly with outsiders). "Evil" would mean that they have a rather harsh way of dealing with family disputes. "Evil" would mean that if there's a skirmish, that they might take a rather dynamic view of the treatment of prisoners... Evil Grin
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:08 am  

    The founding year may get modified to be just a bit earlier. Let me try with alignment again:

    As to the good-neutral-evil axis, the village is Ng.
    As to the lawful-neutral-chaotic axis, the village is CNl.

    As to Nyrondese, you hit all of the points as to why the language is still slightly present.

    I am working on things guys, but a home project is sucking up my time right now- moving furniture, scraping that popcorn crap off of the ceilings, re-texturing them, and then it is super happy painting fun time go!

    I'll be happy when it is over and done with. In the meantime, I continue to be busy scribbling away on a preliminary map, and considering how small cottages really are.
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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:09 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    scraping that popcorn crap off of the ceilings, re-texturing them . . .


    The "popcorn crap" is actually there for acoustics. It dampens sound -- that's why it's so widely used in apartment buildings. Wink Laughing

    Life keeps us all busy, Ceb, as long as you're still "on it," it's all good! Cool
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    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:12 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    scraping that popcorn crap off of the ceilings, re-texturing them . . .
    Life keeps us all busy, Ceb, as long as you're still "on it," it's all good! Cool
    Here is some insparational motivational music that
    seems to fit
    for you to work by Big C.... Evil Grin Laughing
    Seriously can relate to that home improvements stuff. 2 years and still "improving"
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:44 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Seriously can relate to that home improvements stuff. 2 years and still "improving"


    Great, another amateur taking food out of my mouth . . . and taking two years to do it to boot! Razz

    And by the way, if you want it done right, you do not "do it yourself" . . . you hire somebody who actually knows how to do it! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    And sorry, No . . . Lowe's really can't help. "You can do it, we can help." Razz


    Mwahahahahahahahahahaha!


    But man, I really do love you guys, I really do. What would my world be without you? Happy Cool Laughing
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:04 pm  

    Yes, I know what the popcorn stuff is, what its real name is, and what its function is. I was just using the layman's term for the laymen. And now it is gone from two more rooms! Woot! Happy Just the master bedroom and closet left to de-popcorn and paint, but that won't get done until these two rooms are fully repainted (that's what I am working on now) and everything is moved back into them. Yay.

    Apparently Lowes employees most places are not of much use. We do have a few good people at both of the Home Depots near us (pros who work there part time), but fortunately many of our family are DIY folks, and we have many friends who are/were "in the business", and we all help each other out when we can. Always helps to know stuff, or know people who know stuff. Wink

    I should be back up and running full speed on things in a few days, as I locate things after having moved various stuff back into the two rooms.

    And I got a few more XP's from killing a spammer this evening. Thanks to those who PM'd me with where the box labeled "Insert sword here for XP." was located. Perhaps it will be enough to bump me up to 6th level? Laughing
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:05 am  

    Congrats on levelling up Cebrion! IMC you'd need to visit a trainer now! Wink
    Are you considering a Prestige Class? Maybe Spaminator? I think you qualify with all those Skill Points in Knowledge: Interwebz

    ((Seriously: thanks for keeping this site so clean!))
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:02 am  

    Just giving this a bump.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:03 pm  

    No bump needed, unless there is something to add here that has not been posted in the other thread (i.e. doesn't have to do with professionals and such).
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    Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:10 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    No bump needed, unless there is something to add here that has not been posted in the other thread (i.e. doesn't have to do with professionals and such).


    -Actually, I meant to post this here:

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Might as well put this here, too:

    On the issue of classes and levels, there's the D&D 3.5 DMG, pp. 138-139.

    I've had some charts I did a while ago, and I'm in the process of typing them up real pretty, so I might as well put them to use here.

    Going through the permutations (by hand, so it might be fallible), you get this for an "average" hamlet with 240 adults:

    Hamlet pop. 240 (51.310 non-Com1 = 21.38%):
    Ftr: 3.250, 1.35%; Rgr: 1.066, 0.44%; Bbn: 1.000, 0.42%; Pal: 0.333, 0.14%; Rog: 3.250, 1.35%; Brd: 2.333, 0.97%; Wiz: 1.000, 0.42%; Sor: 1.000, 0.42%; Clr: 2.333, 0.97%; Drd: 3.223, 1.34%; Mnk: 1.000, 0.42%; War (War2+): 11.929, 4.97% (1.562); Ari (Ari2+): 1.286, 0.54% (0.250); Exp (Exp2+): 10.156, 4.23% (3.936); Adp (Adp2+): 2.036, 0.85% (1.000); (Com2+): (6.120, 2.55%)...

    ...e.g., there would be an average of 3.25 fighters of all levels (1.35% of the adult population), and there would be 10.156 experts of all levels (3.936% of the adult population), 3.936 of whom would be Exp2 or higher. Overall, the 51.31 (or 21.38%) of the adults would be something other than a Com1.

    These figures are for an "average" place in an "average" society (probably heavy on the Forgotten Realms and Eberron, neither of which I'm really familiar with). I've always assumed that the Flaneass would be a lot heavier on fighters, scouts, and experts, but lighter on warriors (since many could be trained very easily to fighter standard), while barbarians, paladins, and monks would normally only be found certain regions. But, although I think our villagers would get in some practice, and would do some sort of training (once quarter at fest time), I don't think the formal training would be that rigorous.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals)...


    ...since our population is higher, would could just add 11% ( x 1.11) to the numbers. In reality, as a community gets larger, the proportion of non-Com1's decreases (only 15.47% in a village of 650), but the odds of a higher than 4th level type increases a little. In most cases, it doesn't make a big difference. But it's a consideration. Since the Gamboge seems a little more dangerous than the average place, I'd round up for levels, averaging hamlets and villages.

    So, I figure that our hamlet-sized "village" would have the following:

    Ftr: Average, round down (Not a whole lot of guys training with heavy armor and tower shields, here, but the incentive to train is here. Maybe some could be swashbucklers or hexblades? Of course, swashbuckler is usually more of an urban thing); 3 fighters, inc. maybe 1 hexblade? Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.

    Rgr: Well above average (The woodland thing is obvious, and IIRC, 75% of men from the Gnarley have at least one level of ranger. I wouldn't go that high here, but even 10% of the population isn't unprecedented. Instead of rangers, they might be scouts); at least 3 rangers or scouts. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for rangers and hamlets).

    Bbn: Well below average, if any (A D&D 3X barbarian is more like an AD&D1 or AD&D2 beserker. The closest places to find them would be the Cold Suel Barbarians, Stonefist, or someone raised in an Orc or Ogre tribe. Not that they couldn't be in the village, but you will have some explaining to do...); 0 barbarians. If there is one, 3rd level max.

    Pal: Well below average, if any. (Same issue as fighters, plus Lawful Good); 0 paladins. If there is one, 2nd level, max.

    Rog: Average, round up (A D&D 3X rogue can be a lot of things other than a thief. The AD&D2 kit for scouts would be ideal. Using the AD&D2 Complete Thief's HB, table 11, it seems unlikely that you'd have more than one rogue in the community who is a full time criminal, if that); 4 rogues or scouts, of whom 1 (a C and/or E-aligned type) might be a rogue of the criminal sort, probably preying on passers-by rather than locals. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.

    Brd: Average, round up (It looks like this place is going to have some sort of Old Faith foundation, and bards fit in to that); 3 bards. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, reasonably as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.

    Wiz: Average, round down (I don't see this place as producing or attracting a lot of wizards, but one hedge wizard wouldn't be out of place, perhaps with an apprentice?); 1 wizard. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.

    Sor: Average, round down; 1 sorcerer, or maybe a hexblade. Probably 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.

    Clr: Average, round down; 2 clerics. Probably 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.

    Drd: Above average (Again, the Old Faith seems to be strong here); 4 druids. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for hamlets and druids).

    Mnk: Well below average, if any. (I mean, come on); 0 monks. If there is one, 3rd level max.

    War: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a War1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter type. A lot of under-trained talent); 14 warriors, inc. at least 2 of whom is a War2 or higher. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level (possibly combined with another class). Any War2s or higher are probably at least 21 years old.

    Ari: Below average (In AD&D terms, an Ari1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter/cavalier type. Maybe the son of the wealthiest folks in town?); 1 aristocrat, probably an Ari1.

    Exp: Average, round up (They're able to make a decent living in the middle of nowhere. They must be doing something right); 12 experts, of whom at least 5 are Exp2 or higher, (possibly combined with another class). Any Exp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.

    Adp: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a 0 level cleric or druid); 3 adepts, or whom at least 1 is an Adp2 or higher. I'd make 2 representatives of non-druid dominant faiths, and one Old Faith. These would also be obvious candidates for midwives and healers. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level. Any Adp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.

    Com: Anyone left over is a commoner, with maybe 6 or 7 of them 2nd level or higher (possibly combined with another class). Any Com2s or higher are probably at least 30 years old.

    Or maybe Cebrion wants to roll the dice randomly, and then modify... Wink

    Since a full stat description isn't even necessary (a "bonus"), this doesn't really limit anyone (if you really want to write up a guy who would probably be a 12th level monk, well, OK...). But maybe we can avoid too many paladins and monks, or super high levels?


    ...in the more general thread.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:45 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ..I would characterize this village as "above average", but I need be a bit more clear on what I mean by that. As to trades people, the village will be fairly average. As to individuals who actually have PC classes, they will be the "above average" component. Basically, these villagers would have the upper hand in a smack down with an equal number of "average" villagers. They are just a slight bit tougher. Most villages will have militia who are Warriors, with just a few fighters among them (former skilled soldiers/adventurers most likely), and led by a few fighters. This village still has Warrior class militia, but there is a higher percentage of villagers than average who are instead fighters or rangers. So, as as to fighting at least, the villagers are more skilled in a general sense, but not by much. There certainly won't be more barbarians, rogues, mages, or clerics though. Those classes would fall into the "average", and paladins would be below average, as the community is not geared towards a LG alignment at all (you can probably count all of the LG villagers on one hand). Monks would be out greatly of place too...



    -Pretty much where I was going, right down the line, except I would add rangers and scout-like rogues (or scouts, for those who have Complete Adventurer) in lieu of warriors and fighters.

    One other caveat I forgot is that the longer-lived non-humans:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...After about five generations...

    Village Population (estimates, subject to modification)

    Flan: 32% (85)
    Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
    Oeridian: 14% (37)
    Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
    Elves: 3% (8)
    Half-elves: 8% (21)
    Gnomes: 5% (13)
    Halflings: 2% (5)
    Dwarves: 1% (3)

    That is for the village proper. There are a few lurkers living a bit out from the village too. the main reason for posting those numbers is so that people who may throw a non-human somewhere in their article doesn't go too crazy with them.


    ...would be disproportionately in the "non-commoner" classes, and higher level.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Also, most armies are made up of Warriors (i.e. a spearman only really needs to know how to use a spear well, a bowman only really needs to know how to use a bow well, etc.). Highly trained forces within armies (like most cavalry and elite versions of regular units that carry an array of weaponry, and so need to know how to fight well with more than one weapon) are the Fighters.


    -A subject near and dear to my heart.

    War1's seem to largely be "natural fighters" in the rough. Using my training rules (a combination of D&D 3.5 DMG, pp. 197-198, AD&D 2 DMG, p. 49, and AD&D Greyhawk Adventures, pp. 119-124), it might only take a few weeks of training to turn a War1 into a Ftr1, if he (usually he) is 21 or younger. The D&D 3.5 rules define "most" soldiers/mercenaries as War1, but I think the standard is a little low (perhaps a Forgotten Realms/Eberon standard?). Most serious armies could pull it off, although you have to define "serious". Guys serving some sort of 40 or 60 day feudal service probably wouldn't have enough training, and I suspect that most our villagers would have even less training. I'm thinking one day during each of the four seasonal festivals (Freeday?), and most of the day would involve shooting and wrestling matches. If they wanted to be weekend warriors, they could have stayed in the Pale... Laughing

    Just as a sideline, I always thought that the War1 was a little over-powered for a guy who's supposed to have only minimal training and practice. Proficient with tower shields? Heavy armor? Even Medium armor? All martial weapons? In the interest of convertibility, I accept it with gritted teeth. I know we've had a similar conversation about experts.

    Oh well.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:14 pm  

    What a War1 can do is just a simplification so far as armor is concerned. And yes, a War1 can use a tower shield. There is historical justification for this, the example being that a heavy crossbow team included two men- one to work and fire the crossbow, and a second man to protect them both with a giant shield (and I don't mean a pavisse either). Now, if somebody has their War1s all marching about in full plate with tower shields, I am thinking that their world is a bit...off...to begin with. ;) but War1 also covers less sophisticate fighters too, meaning humanoids who will use all manner of weapons and armor, but just not be trained to be masterful with them. A few weeks shouldn't train a War 1 into an F1 either. F1 are seasoned veterans. Drilling and playing with blunted weapons doesn't create F1s. That is what most of the villagers are doing of course, and those that do are the War1s. Those that are sent out to take out humanoid raiders, bandits, monsters in woods, and other threats the F1s and Ran1s.

    One reason there are more F1s here is the influx of Tenhas post-GH wars, and as to the Ran1s it is partially the location itself, which has attracted more than hearty than average souls to it over time. The other reason is that the village defends itself against everything, and that creates a few more better than average individuals than the usual village will have. There are no kingdom guards who patrol the village's roads and byways- they do it themselves, and the folk gain skills thereby. It takes many more years of doing this to make a F1 than spending time fighting wars does though. Most of the F1s and Ran1s will be 30+ years old, with perhaps a few stellar individuals being in their 20's. The freakishly gifted F1s and Ran1s (and other PC classed people) who are in their late teens would be the "adventurer quality" folks, which there are maybe 5 or less of in the entire place, so 1 out of every 50 or so, though that ratio will dwindle further as their number remains the same while the population total increases due to me adding in more people from the outlying area.

    That just covers the more basic members of the militia though, and there are other more skilled individuals taking part in militia duties and/or living in the area.
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