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    Canonfire :: View topic - Postfest Village: Who are the professionals?
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    Postfest Village: Who are the professionals? [ 1, 2  Next]
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:09 pm  

    I think Sutemi has fallen into the classic trap of "rules dictate behavior". Well, it would be more accurate to say that he has fallen the trap of "perception", as the rules very much contradict him. In 1E anybody can have any sort of skills/background (it is just background fluff). In 2E, a non-class non-weapon proficiency simply costs an extra proficiency slot, and there are Secondary Skills too, but not having class levels doesn't also mean that 0-level folks know nothing (the 2E DMG provides more info on this). In 3.X, cross-class skills are limited in their effectiveness, but anybody can still learn pretty much anything. 4E is similar. What we see is that not a single thing is outright disallowed. The rules make allowances for, well, everything. Not only Rangers and Druids hunt and trap stuff. Anyone can hunt and trap stuff- they will just not necessarily be as good at it. Also, just because a Ranger hates goblins doesn't mean that he's on a 24/7 mission to eradicate them from the World of Greyhawk. He's just extra pissed off when he actually runs into any, and if he hears about any goblins prowling about locally, he will probably go out and see about collecting a few of their ears.

    Just to throw Sutemi a bone Razz, yes , I did envision "Bob the Bowyer" as being about 60+ years old, but still rather hale, and, yes, at his level, he is what would be considered a powerful individual. He's not exactly Aragorn though.

    This village is probably going to have a few more level 1-4 people than one might normally find though, because these people have to take care of themselves after all. If they have trouble, which they occasionally do, nobody is coming to help them unless they can get somebody through to another village, the elves, or the gnomes (and I've already decided that the elves an gnomes are 2+ days away into the forest). Now, this doesn't mean that every single villager is level 1-4, just that a few dozen may have class levels (in the 1E sense).
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    Paladin

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:11 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Jeremiah Johnson was a "Ranger." What special training did he receive? Confused


    Well there was the Bear Training at the cabin........... Wink Laughing

    Seriously, I'm with the consensus on this.... ALL hearty souls living there would have ranks in various "survival" skills.. (to use a 3.xx interpretation) If they didn't they would simply not survive.
    We are, as also pointed out, trying to define those that may have 'honed" those skills (and others abilities) that would make them the resident experts as judged by their piers. And these "exceptionals" to more likely refered to if traveling PCs inquire "commons" for information.
    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:12 am  

    To give another example: The "average" Priest leading a congregation -- a country church -- is only 3rd level, though he be 70 years old.

    The premise to all Editions -- as far as I know -- is that "levels" are attained through adventuring. This is something that the "average" village Priest isn't going to be doing. It's also why you -- usually -- have to go to a "major city" in order to have your dead companion Raised or Resurrected.

    Then there's Derider Fanshen, Constable of Greyhawk -- Priest (Cleric) 12th level. I have three characters that cannot -- yet -- kick her butt! I've got another dozen that can. And remember, she's the Constable of a major metropolitan area, not a simple village. By comparison, any "constable" type "professional" person our village might have wouldn't be more than 2nd, or 3rd level. Wink

    The NPCs of our village -- or any other -- are not going to be anywhere near as "powerful" as the PCs that visit.

    Sure, the occasional Module provides one: "Always assume that "Magician X" is several levels more powerful than your PCs" . . . but that's not what we're doing "here."

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Well there was the Bear Training at the cabin . . .


    Okay, you got me with that one! Razz

    Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:09 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...Game mechanics are only intended to represent what PCs are competently capable of, not what commoners can do. It wasn't until edition 3.x that the Expert NPC class was introduced...


    -I think the kernel for the Expert was the AD&D1 Dungeoneer's Survival Guide allowed for Craftsmen with (IIRC) d6 at various level of skill, plus lots of proficiencies.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...and that was specifically so that DMs didn't have to make every village blacksmith a retired Fighter to avoid having the PCs bully him around...


    -I don't think it was just to keep PCs from attacking NPCs. One other reason was if the PCs hired an NPC, you'd know how good a job he could do. The other was if the NPC got attacked by other NPCs, as in a robbery, assassination attempt, or a raid, that you'd know what they could do. Of course, you'd have to ask the author of the DSG (Doug Niles?).

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Sutemi wrote:
    If I'm the DM and you play a 1st-level commoner and try to hunt food using the mechanics as given . . .


    You have Players who wish to role play . . . "Commoners?" Shocked


    -I think Sutemi means that if you were to try to figure out how a 1st level Commoner would do at hunting, that he'd be bad at it, thus:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Not only Rangers and Druids hunt and trap stuff. Anyone can hunt and trap stuff- they will just not necessarily be as good at it...


    ...but even that's not necessarily so. For Sutemi:

    Human Com1 (12I, 12W) would have 16 skill points, which could include Survival +2 (and a +1 bonus for WIS), Profession (Hunter) +4 (and a +1 bonus for WIS), and Knowledge (Nature) +1 (and a +1 bonus for INT), leaving six points for other stuff (Survival and Knowledge being non-class skills). He gets one simple weapon feat (Light Crossbow), and his two feats could be Track and Endurance, or maybe Great Fortitude instead. Another alternative would be Stealthy. More than enough to track and hunt any conventional game.

    There's also 1st level Expert, for whom it's even easier, since every skill is a class skill.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Sutemi wrote:
    If I'm the DM and you play a 1st-level commoner and try to hunt food using the mechanics as given . . .


    You have Players who wish to role play . . . "Commoners?" Shocked


    -Actually, I wouldn't want to be a 1st level Commoner, but I have wanted to play a PC (or DM a PC) where they just try to get by and live to a ripe old age- how many PCs survive to age 60? Razz Play in the year CY 610! Razz Conventional adventure may come up every so often, but getting the harvest in or making a profit would actually be interesting to me on an intrinsic level, and perhaps also because I've enjoyed enough of the other type of adventure IRL. Laughing Confused


    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ... Jeremiah Johnson was a "Ranger." What special training did he receive? Confused ...


    -He probably was, down to "Favored Enemy: Crow" (or probably "Indians"):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liver-Eating_Johnson

    ...I'd say he was a 2nd or 3rd level Expert who had picked up the necessary Ranger skills (tracking, animal stuff) over several years of OJT on the frontier. He just needed another level, and to pick a favored enemy when along came the Crow... Evil Grin

    If you're doing D&D 3X, then an alternative would be to make him a Expert/Scout instead of Expert/Ranger.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:18 am  

    Thank you James, it seems that you got my drift. I tried to explain as well as could and I'm happy that you understood me.

    I agree 100% with your calculations. The problem is that life is extremely demanding for a villager and he is so weak (in all imaginable ways) that taking cross-class skills such as survival is hardly an option. It doesn't matter if he has +3 skill modifier or +0 in survival, he cannot make the cut to be a hunter or a trapper.

    This is why I gave up commoners completely for Dry Steppes. The average Baklun there is an Expert 1/Warrior 1 - at minimum.

    I always like to go precisely by the book. This is why I insist that we need plenty of Experts as trappers because druids and rangers are so few (according to DMG) and commoners are almost useless in that role (due to the class and its class skills).
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:25 am  

    hfdjkfhdjh
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:48 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    ...This is why I insist that we need plenty of Experts as trappers because druids and rangers are so few (according to DMG) and commoners are almost useless in that role (due to the class and its class skills).


    1) FWIW, I think that the example I gave of a 1st level Commoner, whose primary gig is hunting, fares well at hunting in most places, particularly if he's young. Against a Bugbear, he'd probably lose. That's why he has feet and a mouth: He can run back to the village for safety, yelling for help as he goes, which is where the more powerful NPCs, combined with the superior numbers of the village, and perhaps the assistance of the PCs, comes in;

    2) IIRC, according to FtA, something like 75% of the inhabitants of the Gnarley are 1st level or higher Rangers, and there's a similar level of skill for the Grandwood and the Lone Heath in Ivid the Undying. The Gamboge might not be as challenging to survival as those places (particularly the Grandwood and the Lone Heath), but I don't see anything wrong with making a large proportion (maybe a majority) of the villagers 1st or 2nd level Experts, with a good sprinkling of 3rd level. Cebrion already seems to agree. A disproportionate number will also be Rangers or Scouts, and maybe Rogues (AD&D Thieves) of the backwoods variety. 1st level Commoners, after age 18, might be in the minority, since they'll have enough On the Job Training/School of Hard Knocks to qualify for a different class, and those over 30 will often be 2nd level or higher.



    Sutemi wrote:
    ...This is why I gave up commoners completely for Dry Steppes. The average Baklun there is an Expert 1/Warrior 1 - at minimum...


    -Even the teenagers?!

    Maybe you need to lighten up on your outdoor encounters...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:12 am  

    Good points James.

    The outdoorsy commoner who you have presented is an interesting option. However, consider this: Since he/she has been trained for the outdoors life, maybe it would be natural that he/she has become an expert or ranger, instead of learning survival at a slow rate because he/she is a commoner? It's like giving a person the professional training X, but calling that person with the professional title Y. Maybe it would be more fitting just to be X?

    But I do see your point and the outdoorsy commoner is a good choice. I just think that a few Expert huntsmen/trappers would be an easier choice. They wouldn't be so clumsy and limited as the commoner huntsmen, but more like rangers without combat skills. That sounds better for me, at least.

    And about teenagers:
    According to DMG all calculations regarding population are done according to adult population, always. First you figure out the adult population of a population center and then you figure out their classes and levels. Children, adolescents etc. are considered non-combatants and generally not statted in any way. Certainly no classes are given. Also a teenager is a very loose term... A half-orc barbarian can become a mid-level character or even higher before his/her 16th birthday. If you don't mind, I will not comment this age thing more than this. I don't find it very fruitful, even though I was the first the bring it up in this thread.
    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:40 am  

    Well, you guys are too far out in left field for me. The Great Metropolis of Greyhawk was built and inhabited by Commoners.

    According to your mathematics . . . the City of Greyhawk does not exist. Cry

    Do what you want, but I strongly advise both of you not to hold your breathes waiting for me to stat out all the commoners in my piece.

    NOT HAPPENING!

    And I do not agree with your reasoning, so don't expect me to use your villagers . . . I won't.

    I'm not interested in the fact that you think they are Rules when I know they are Guidelines. Add to that the fact that it's a medieval game and you two are obviously hung up on 21st Century B.S. and thought patterns.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:17 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Well, you guys are too far out in left field for me. The Great Metropolis of Greyhawk was built and inhabited by Commoners...


    -The City of Greyhawk, or a feudal manor in Aerdi or Veluna is not like the Lone Heath, the Grandwood, the Gnarley, and the Gamboge. In the Flaneass, as in real life, dangerous and challenging circumstances require people who can hack it. It's what you're trying to say here:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ... To me, Rangers are "less special" in this sense: Any man moving into the forest to live on his own is going to become one of two things . . . a "Ranger," or dead. It's called starvation. Jeremiah Johnson was a "Ranger." ...


    ...but you and Sutemi are exaggerating a little. You don't have to be a ranger (or scout, or rogue) to "move through the forest, nor do you have to be second level. But it helps.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...According to your mathematics . . . the City of Greyhawk does not exist....


    -Ther physical labor which built the walls and buildings may have been provided with (mostly) 1st and 2nd level Commoners, but they needed Experts and spellcasters to do the fine work. Nor or 1st and 2nd level Commoners the mainstay of its security. One of the advantages of "civilzation" (e.g., a big city or feudal society) is that it allows medicocre people to survive ( Laughing ), because there's a giant pool of talent and bodies to handle the hard stuff. If you're in the backwoods, everyone has to step up a little more. Maybe not "3rd level Ranger" step up, but maybe "2nd level Expert" step up.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I'm not interested in the fact that you think they are Rules when I know they are Guidelines...


    -What rules and what guidelines?! You're trying to say that you know what class and level average people in our imaginary village would have. That's sort of like setting a rule.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...Add to that the fact that it's a medieval game and you two are obviously hung up on 21st Century B.S. and thought patterns.


    1) The Flaneass is not medieval, but pseudo-medieval, unless you believe in magic, orcs, dragons, and gods whose primary interest is "Insanity". Laughing

    2) I can't post for Sutemi, but through what could be called "experience" and "study" I have a pretty good idea of the difference in combat skills between different types of people. That's not 21st century, or medieval, or quasi medieval, but pretty universa,l down through the ages (Does that sound pompous? Oh well! Razz ). Another way to look at it, is that these villagers face challenges, and more importantly, OVERCOME challenges, than most Greyhawker laborers or Aerdi peasants ever will. So they would tend to be a little better than Commoners, and tend to have a greater proportion of 2nd and 3rd level types than you would find in Greyhawk or Aerdi.

    3 (EDIT) ) Since you brought up "21st Century B.S.":

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I didn't make anyone's "point."

    My father has a sub-Contractor's License for Masonry because that's the only test (yes, there's a test for the License) that he can pass. My uncle Francis has a sub-Contractor's License for Plumbing, my uncle Donovan for Carpentry, my uncle Denis for Roofing, my uncle Randolph for Electrical.

    They usually worked on the same houses and I ended up working with each of them in my time. So, I am the only one who can pass the General Contractor's test. I'm am the only one who can answer questions regarding all of those trades. Questions?

    The tests are standardized by O.S.H.A., the Occupational Safety and Health Administration -- otherwise known as the Federal Government.

    Let's try a little Masonry: 1) What are wall-ties? 2) How often are wall-ties applied? *

    My friend, Sam, grew-up learning to lay brick with his father. He's a brick-layer, nothing more. He calls me to do anything else he might need done. And that's how it is -- father to son. I'm one of the few who grew-up doing it all. (At present, in the United States, the average age of trained brick-layers is 62. One day, you folks won't be able to get a brick house -- there won't be anyone around who knows how to do it anymore.)

    Most people go to school to become General Contractors. A General Contractor needs to know how it is done, he doesn't necessarily need to be able to actually do it. I consider myself fortunate that I actually am capable of performing the work, when most General Contractors are not.

    The Miller's son is not learning how to farm, he's working in his father's mill. The Carpenter's son is not learning to mill, he's working in his father's Carpentry Shop. The kid's of the village are not growing up learning to do everything.

    And for you do-it-yourself guys -- you "work" is in violation of every code there is! Meaning? You are allowed, by law, to "fix" your own homes. But you are not allowed to sell that house until your work is "signed off" by a Licensed Contractor, who is not going to risk his reputation or License on your duct tape and bailing wire repairs.

    Sure, you can fix it, but not properly. Neither can everyone in the village do it "properly." That's why some of those wattle fences are better built than others. You are aware, are you not, that everyone of those fireplaces in those log cabins filled the room with smoke, aren't you? Hollywood doesn't show that because you wouldn't be able to see the actors' faces. So, no, those mountain men could not "really" build a fireplace for their log cabin. Needless to say, such fireplaces were grossly inefficient at providing heat, which is why many of them froze to death.

    And it was the 1960's -- what child labor laws? Besides at 50 cents a day, $2.50 a week, I was the richest kid in my neighborhood. I could buy more candy than anybody!

    Today? I let you guys pay the plumber $75 an hour to fix "that." Same for the Electrician -- except he charges more. Evil Grin

    And who do you know that got their bathroom completely remodeled -- plumbing, electrical, carpentry, sheet rock, floor tile, old fashioned cast iron tub replaced with a walk-in shower for her two knee surgeries, newly installed, wall-mounted gas heater, cabinets, vanity, toilet -- for nothing more than the cost of materials, other than my Aunt? Hmm?

    No complaints here. Cool

    Okay, I'm finished ranting. Especially as some probably still don't understand what I'm talking about. After all, it's just a game about magic . . . logic need not apply, nor does it even have a place here.

    * Wall-ties are small metal strips, 8" long, used to "tie" two wall together. In the case of wood and masonry, every stud, every 7 courses of brick. Two brick walls, every 16", every 7 courses of brick.

    The wall-ties are attached to the stud with 8 penny nails, or screws, then bent over the brick work, with the end folded so as to stick into one of the holes in the brick, which is then filled with masonry.

    Brick walls, the two ends are folded over, forming a square "U" shape, stuck down into the holes in the brick, which are then filled with masonry.

    Many of today's "not trained properly" brick-layers skip over that part -- in violation of the law. But they're cheaper than me, so you hire them. You hire me when -- in 2 or 3 years -- their wall literally falls down. (Many of you need learn your lessons the "hard way." Sad really. It ends up costing you a great deal more trying to "skimp" the first time.)


    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...And I do not agree with your reasoning, so don't expect me to use your villagers . . . I won't...


    -DM's prerogative, but go ahead and use them. It won't hurt you! Laughing

    EDIT: Keep in mind, you're not the primary objective. It's Ceb'! Wink Laughing
    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:09 pm  

    jamesdglick finally mentioned the fact that Commoner is an NPC class in 3.x. I find it funny, looking over the level progression table, that a person could somehow attain 20th level in Commoner. Razz

    However, it does provide us with another solution to the problem sutemi is having and one that Mystic-Scholar might be better able to accept. We all know old people nowadays that are simply much more awesome than the average person. Frequently, it is because they were once soldiers, but many times it is because they lived through amazing difficulties or accomplished incredible things without any formal training. For example, my maternal grandfather built a log cabin on the side of a mountain outside Anchorage after WWII by himself and raised his family by hunting, trapping, fishing, panning/mining for gold, etc. - all skills he learned growing up as a boy in southern Missouri, not as a soldier in the war. Perhaps your grandmother told you stories of surviving the Dust Bowl or your great, great grandmother was a surviving member of the Donner Party. Cool Such people are not 1st level Commoners! Such people, in D&D terms, are 2nd, 3rd, or even 8th level Commoners. That NPC class accounts for the acquisition of extra skill points and a few other, very slowly acquired, bonuses quite nicely without making the NPC tough enough to actually take on the adventurers.

    SirXaris
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:15 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    Oddly enough, the back story of a book I am reading centers on the establishment of a large medieval trading community, and it is mentioning all sorts of issues related to starting certain industries, and a bit of what is required to do so. Kismet, it seems. Happy


    What book? I read Dorothy Dunnet's Niccolò Rising and it gave me so many ideas about stuff to do in a campaign to involve characters in trade and industries. I'm always on the lookout for similar books.

    I just looked into Niccolò Rising. I may have to pic that up. What I just finished reading was Jan Guilou's Crusades Trilogy (The Road to Jerusalem, The Templar Knight, Birth of the Kingdom). The last book deals with the main character returning from the Holy Land, and the preparations required to build up his own clan in order to secure the peace of the Götaland (modern day southern Sweden) by creating a power that it is simply not worth fighting against cost-wise for their enemies. The main character returns home with a large group of henchman, who are mostly trained craftsmen, in order to make this happen. The story goes into some the real issues related to what these craftsmen do, such as needing to trade for specialized supplies they need. For instance, the glass workers (yes, they are in there Laughing) need the right sand to even do their work. The main character goes about establishing a trading hub in order to increase the wealth of the clan to a level that it will be able to properly fortify its holdings, train up modern cavalry units, and have plenty of weapons to outfit an army, in the event that one is needed.

    The book occasionally gives a look into the building up process of the community, so there are some ideas to be taken from it. However, in the book this building up process is being done on a large scale, and so it cannot be applied directly to a small, already established, village. What I can take from it is some of the things that are mentioned in regard to the materials required to do what they are doing. You don't need a mason if there is no stone, so if we want to have a mason that will be doing much of anything, because our village is in a dense forest, the mason needs to be able to get stone from somewhere. It is mostly things like that you might think of while reading these particular sections of the book.

    Other than that, there is plenty of historical fiction written about the Holy Land and Templar Knights, but not a whole lot written about Götaland, which peaked my interest further.

    SirXaris wrote:
    Such people are not 1st level Commoners! Such people, in D&D terms, are 2nd, 3rd, or even 8th level Commoners.

    But you see, that is not true. Most basic skills checks are DC 15 or 20, with 25 being extremely difficult. Let's just say that the Donner party wasn't making DC 25 Survival checks to survive. They were making DC 25 Survival checks to find something other than people to eat, and failing miserably (because they were low-level, common schlubs). They didn't survive because they were super awesome high level and were able to make plenty of DC 25 Survival checks, but because they ate people, which they only had to do because they couldn't succeed in making extremely difficult skills checks to not have to do that.

    I would still like to see more ideas for what a mason could do. Being the "chimney guy" is not enough, as people can build chimney's themselves too (just not as well as a mason can). With such a self-sufficient community, there needs to be a decent variety of jobs for a mason to be viable as a stand alone professional. Current ideas: stone work on homes, such as floors, basements, walls, and chimneys; millstones; bridges; village walls/defenses; slate roof tiles perhaps; any other ideas?
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    GreySage

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    Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:55 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    SirXaris wrote:
    Such people are not 1st level Commoners! Such people, in D&D terms, are 2nd, 3rd, or even 8th level Commoners.

    But you see, that is not true. Most basic skills checks are DC 15 or 20, with 25 being extremely difficult. Let's just say that the Donner party wasn't making DC 25 Survival checks to survive. They were making DC 25 Survival checks to find something other than people to eat, and failing miserably (because they were low-level, common schlubs). They didn't survive because they were super awesome high level and were able to make plenty of CD 25 Survival checks, but because they ate people, which they only had to do because they couldn't succeed in making extremely difficult skills checks to not have to do that.


    I agree with this, Cebrion. My point was that, having survived such an ordeal by whatever means, they would have earned enough experience points to be higher level Commoners than those that lived a more ordinary, trial free, life.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:58 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    I would still like to see more ideas for what a mason could do. Being the "chimney guy" is not enough, as people can build chimney's themselves too (just not as well as a mason can). With such a self-sufficient community, there needs to be a decent variety of jobs for a mason to be viable as a stand alone professional. Current ideas: stone work on homes, such as floors, basements, walls, and chimneys; millstones; bridges; village walls/defenses; slate roof tiles perhaps; any other ideas?

    I concur with the "detailing out" of backlog work for whatever professionals we decide apon. BUT, this community will, for all intensive purposes, SPRING into being, it will not be a progression. Certainly as a collective of DMs we will have a "backhistory and methodology" to its coming into being. However, the finished product will be a shapshot microcosm as a STARTING point for PCs to encounter. There is nothing saying, and certainly bents on realism, that the "mason" (for purposes of this example) might very well NOT have enough work. Just like any mason building a keep, more are required on the front end of construction than for general maintenance and repair.

    And maybe he decides at this juncture, life in our little community is not as it was and decides to move on.... maybe hiring the PCs as an escort, or just tagging along with PCs to next town? Adventure Hook?

    Maybe his apprentice decides to stay around (because of the local farmers daughter Laughing Wink ) And he dual trades.. providing the mason maintenance while picking up farming from the "inlaws".
    AGAIN, before any go into 'left field' I am not suggesting we career path a multitude of Departure related part time transiant workers, BUT some could very well exist and add flavor to the mix. While only being partly established at their chosen trade. JAT
    All Im conveying is each does not have to have a lifetimes backlog of work to exist, there are those that migrate to the work, as the demand exists.
    Further, all parties at some point encounter hirelings, that become henchmen, or simply become "Crewman #6" because they lack the intestinal fortitude for the PC world. Razz Evil Grin

    Our REAL task at hand gents, is to define a rational to what is there when the PCs arrive. Isn't it?
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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:55 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I would still like to see more ideas for what a mason could do. Being the "chimney guy" is not enough, as people can build chimney's themselves too (just not as well as a mason can). With such a self-sufficient community, there needs to be a decent variety of jobs for a mason to be viable as a stand alone professional. Current ideas: stone work on homes, such as floors, basements, walls, and chimneys; millstones; bridges; village walls/defenses; slate roof tiles perhaps; any other ideas?


    -If they were constantly improving their defenses, you've got your answer right there.

    That was the one thing Rasgon didn't want. Maybe you should ask his rationale for why they wouldn't have extensive defenses; generally, I'm agnostic on the issue. For labor, they might make it a mandatory part of living in the village, but with the Chaotic alignment tilt most of seem to be heading to? Of course, even chaotics might accept something like that as the prices of not becoming a bugbear's shish-kebab. How much would they be willing to pay for materials? How much can they spare?

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...Certainly as a collective of DMs we will have a "backhistory and methodology" to its coming into being. However, the finished product will be a shapshot microcosm as a STARTING point for PCs to encounter... Our REAL task at hand gents, is to define a rational to what is there when the PCs arrive. Isn't it?


    -Actually, Ceb's idea is that the snapshot is CY 576, but most people will set it at a future date. "Updating" it to what it will be in, say CY 582 or CY 590 is "extra credit" (or the DMs job).

    FWIW, I used most "canned" modules in this way.

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...There is nothing saying, and certainly bents on realism, that the "mason" (for purposes of this example) might very well NOT have enough work. Just like any mason building a keep, more are required on the front end of construction than for general maintenance and repair.

    And maybe he decides at this juncture, life in our little community is not as it was and decides to move on.... maybe hiring the PCs as an escort, or just tagging along with PCs to next town? Adventure Hook?


    -Flipping your suggestion around might be the out for the "mason" issue. Perhaps the mason hasn't even arrived yet, as of CY 576. Instead, he arrives in CY 578 in order to help build the new, improved inn/blockhouse everyone wants. After he finishes that, he might stick around to work on formal defenses for the village part-time. That could take years; there's the example of the castle in Hommlet. He would also build the occasional nice, stone chimney to make more money. When that's done, maybe one the faiths will build a real, stone temple? Or maybe he just leaves?
    Paladin

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:35 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Actually, Ceb's idea is that the snapshot is CY 576, but most people will set it at a future date. "Updating" it to what it will be in, say CY 582 or CY 590 is "extra credit" (or the DMs job).

    FWIW, I used most "canned" modules in this way.
    Yes, but not what I meant... I was implying that even in 576, we wont be having a "ground breaking ceremony".
    Instead, the back history would be already set by the collective here AND be consistant with that point in history moving forward. And IF at that point the mason was leaving that it would still work to have one present at the "beginning of our "story"..
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...And maybe he decides at this juncture, life in our little community is not as it was and decides to move on.... maybe hiring the PCs as an escort, or just tagging along with PCs to next town? Adventure Hook?

    -Flipping your suggestion around might be the out for the "mason" issue. Perhaps the mason hasn't even arrived yet, as of CY 576. Instead, he arrives in CY 578 in order to help build the new, improved inn/blockhouse everyone wants. After he finishes that, he might stick around to work on formal defenses for the village part-time. That could take years; there's the example of the castle in Hommlet. He would also build the occasional nice, stone chimney to make more money. When that's done, maybe one the faiths will build a real, stone temple? Or maybe he just leaves?

    Exactly.. this line of thought is what I was referencing. Could certainly be after.
    I just was seeing a shoehorn effect that everyone is trying to "justify" life spanning careers for those that may not have such in this part of the world.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:39 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...I just was seeing a shoehorn effect that everyone is trying to "justify" life spanning careers for those that may not have such in this part of the world.


    -Yeah. For now, I can't even justify a flash in the pan appearance for a glassblower. Oh well. Laughing
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    Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:09 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...I just was seeing a shoehorn effect that everyone is trying to "justify" life spanning careers for those that may not have such in this part of the world.


    -Yeah. For now, I can't even justify a flash in the pan appearance for a glassblower. Oh well. Laughing

    I guess I see the opposite here too... I see him/her coming or going as the mason... coming to fill a demand and then either diversifying or leaving... I still think containers , jewlery and such could be supplied and exported, since clay is not a likely source for making pictures, pots and containers. That in combination with the natural source of platinum in the region seems a jeweler/gemcutter/glassblowing gnome would fit nicely. Cool
    granted some containers could be fabricated from wood to make cups and the sort. but wood makes a poor storage container. Leaching its own flavors into the stored item. In some cases this is desireable, others not so much.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:51 am  

    By 576 the village is already about 5 generations old, and so is established and slowly growing. The village will not be in the process of slowly fortifying itself with stone work. They will never have the funding for that. I think I need to add to what I mean. The idea here might be to build two stone pillars to which a sturdy main gate is attached, just so that their attachment points are stronger than to just wooden beams. Either side of those pillars are low wooden palisade fences though. The main resource here is wood, and that is what will be mostly be used for building. Stone will be available from somewhere "nearby", but it will be very costly to bring in. A low palisade wall won't surround the whole village though, just be at some key places. Most areas will usually just have a defensive ditch or a wattle fence. So, consider the village only slightly fortified- it won't be Fort Gamboge. My own Pathfinder GH game won't be starting until 2 weeks from this Sunday, so I'll hopefully have some time to sketch out some basic maps and further descriptions.

    As to the mason, think up some other minor things they could do work on that doesn't involve building mage towers, castles, 30 foot tall curtain walls, or any other buildings/building features. Let's call this person a mason/stoneworker, which ought to open things up a bit more. So, what simple stone stuff could they also make that a woodland farming village would find useful, or what other stone things might be present that a mason/stoneworker would make? Any other less simple things the mason/stoneworker could make that there would be an interest in? Be creative, but try not to get too "out there". Wink
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    GreySage

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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:04 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    As to the mason, think up some other minor things they could do work on that doesn't involve building mage towers, castles, 30 foot tall curtain walls, or any other buildings/building features. Let's call this person a mason/stoneworker, which ought to open things up a bit more. So, what simple stone stuff could they also make that a woodland farming village would find useful, or what other stone things might be present that a mason/stoneworker would make? Any other less simple things the mason/stoneworker could make that there would be an interest in? Be creative, but try not to get too "out there". Wink


    Chimneys have already been discussed, but our village blacksmith will need a quality forge, which means something a bit more than a home-made chimney. Having the assistance of a knowledgeable mason/stoneworker in the construction of his forge would be of serious benefit to the smith.

    Also, wells typically have their walls reinforced by masonry to prevent them from caving in. Since Cebrion has declared that wells will be the main source of water for the village, this would be a valuable use for a mason's skills.

    SirXaris
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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:40 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    By 576 the village is already about 5 generations old, and so is established and slowly growing.



    Good to know..give the signmakers a date to put by Established Wink


    Cebrion wrote:
    As to the mason, think up some other minor things they could do work on

    Paths, Well Wall re-inforcment, If there is a Baker a Stone Hearth might be nice. stone and pestle for the herbalist, or on a larger scale for all that Wheat and Barley Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:52 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...As to the mason, think up some other minor things they could do work on that doesn't involve building mage towers, castles, 30 foot tall curtain walls, or any other buildings/building features... So, what simple stone stuff could they also make that a woodland farming village would find useful, or what other stone things might be present that a mason/stoneworker would make?


    -Lawn gnomes? Razz

    A permanent drainage ditch would could also double as a defense? But that runs up against costs.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...Chimneys have already been discussed, but our village blacksmith will need a quality forge, which means something a bit more than a home-made chimney. Having the assistance of a knowledgeable mason/stoneworker in the construction of his forge would be of serious benefit to the smith...


    -Second that.

    How about a potter's kiln?

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...Also, wells typically have their walls reinforced by masonry to prevent them from caving in. Since Cebrion has declared that wells will be the main source of water for the village, this would be a valuable use for a mason's skills...


    -Second that. The second well may have been dug while they were busy shoring up the first.

    How about a cistern?

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    ...
    Cebrion wrote:
    As to the mason, think up some other minor things they could do work on

    Paths, Well Wall re-inforcment, If there is a Baker a Stone Hearth might be nice. stone and pestle for the herbalist, or on a larger scale for all that Wheat and Barley Laughing


    -Paths, maybe; second the well reinforcement (again); baker's hearth, good.

    Maybe the mason could be an NPC who lives in Abbotsford or Woodsedge, and shows up for periodically for odd jobs. He could be their conduit to the Pale. His intent?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:22 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Chimneys have already been discussed, but our village blacksmith will need a quality forge, which means something a bit more than a home-made chimney. Having the assistance of a knowledgeable mason/stoneworker in the construction of his forge would be of serious benefit to the smith.

    Also, wells typically have their walls reinforced by masonry to prevent them from caving in. Since Cebrion has declared that wells will be the main source of water for the village, this would be a valuable use for a mason's skills.

    SirXaris

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Paths, Well Wall re-reinforcement, If there is a Baker a Stone Hearth might be nice. stone and pestle for the herbalist, or on a larger scale for all that Wheat and Barley Laughing

    It will be the rare...er... inept professional who for some reason does not have the basic tools of their trade, so an herbalist will already have a mortar and pestle, and other things they need. If there is a baker, the baker will already have a hearth, not need one. There has been a blacksmith's forge and wells in the village for 90+ years. We don't need to know things that a mason/stoneworker could have built, and that have been around since the village's inception, but *new* things to be built by a mason/stoneworker. Besides, a Blacksmith doesn't need to mason to build their forge any more than a Boywer needs a woodworker to make his wooden forming tools either. Those things are going to be made by them, and making them is probably one of the last things that they must demonstrate that they can make before leaving their apprenticeships, as they are required to even practice their trades.

    Professionals will often know how to make their own tools, with some notable exceptions, namely stoneworkers and woodworkers not knowing how to forge/temper the metal tools that they use. They surely will know what shape and properties those tools need to have though, such that they can tell a Blacksmith exactly how they need to be made. Such specialty tools as these are expensive, and are usually awarded to these workers upon completion of their apprenticeships. There are still some tools that they will be able to make themselves though. There is no need to go into further examples of this, as it will just go off on an unnecessary tangent. Laughing

    So, for the Mason/Stoneworker (and any other crafts people, if you are so inclined), think of things that could be made by them now, not things that could have been made by them in the past. This is not just for my benefit, but for those who may end up writing up some of the Professionals entries. Wink
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    Paladin

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:49 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    So, for the Mason/Stoneworker (and any other crafts people, if you are so inclined), think of things that could be made by them now, not things that could have been made by them in the past. This is not just for my benefit, but for those who may end up writing up some of the Professionals entries. Wink

    Big C, While I agree with your points, I guess I should have framed my comment differently, I penned based on the comment that the mason, baker, etc, would only just be arriving as an establishment not as a transient worker or endproduct peddler in 576.
    As jamesdglick wrote:
    -Flipping your suggestion around might be the out for the "mason" issue. Perhaps the mason hasn't even arrived yet, as of CY 576.

    And by arriving only at the "dawn" of our setting would require such items (and others) as you have listed that they could not port in or wish to upgrade. I think 5 generations would be sufficently established for a mason to arrive to begin "improvements" such as hearths, gates, fireplaces, paths, etc
    But creating personna that have been there the whole of 5 generations and adding new arrivals (other than PCs) it will add plot elements and "rumors heard" as the old scrutinize the new. Anyone that has traveled to small town USA can tell you what that is like... EVERYONE knows your in town and speculate as to why. And for some townies.. now matter how long you live there, you're still an outsider if you were not born there. Wink
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:46 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...It will be the rare...er... inept professional who for some reason does not have the basic tools of their trade, so an herbalist will already have a mortar and pestle, and other things they need. If there is a baker, the baker will already have a hearth, not need one. There has been a blacksmith's forge and wells in the village for 90+ years. We don't need to know things that a mason/stoneworker could have built, and that have been around since the village's inception, but *new* things to be built by a mason/stoneworker...


    1) I thought DLG's mortar & pestle was a joke. I still do. Wink

    2) The blacksmith may have been there for decades, but the baker may be new, meeting the demands of a growing village. Can anyone think of a reason that the old forge might need replacing? Wells can use re-shoring from time to time. It depends.
    Paladin

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    Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:37 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ..
    1) I thought DLG's mortar & pestle was a joke. I still do. Wink

    It was ... but hey every home needs the "new and improved" ULTRA PESTLE... It grinds, it crushes, it pounds.... and yours today for only 19.95,,, plus Dragonmail delivery ofcourse.
    jamesdglick wrote:
    ..
    2) The blacksmith may have been there for decades, but the baker may be new, meeting the demands of a growing village. Can anyone think of a reason that the old forge might need replacing? Wells can use re-shoring from time to time. It depends.

    Not necessarily, it is plausable with the abundance of wood resources that most Iron type tools could be ported in or sold via travelers... as to replacing the forge.... not really even today, most modern glass forges/ furnaces run 24/7 for decades... It could require "expanding" due to the increase in and varied new demands...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:48 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:

    ...It was ... but hey every home needs the "new and improved" ULTRA PESTLE... It grinds, it crushes, it pounds.... and yours today for only 19.95,,, plus Dragonmail delivery ofcourse...


    -"Look at Kelly grind, grind, grind!"

    "Buy now, and you get not one, not two, but THREE new and improved ULTRA PESTLES!"

    ...btw, is that 19.95 basics, or silver moons? Laughing

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...

    ...At this point, I am going to lay out some basic information on the village.

    So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals)...The village itself is comprised of 50+ structures, including some located farther out from the village proper...


    ...and...

    Cebrion wrote:
    Yes, that 267 is total populace, not just adults, but this is for the village proper. There are few additional folks living on the fringes of the village. The numbers "100 males : 87 females : 80 children" is about right, but some of those "men" and "women" are teenagers. For our purposes, let us say that "children" are 13 and under, and "adults" are 14 and over...


    -Assuming minimal magical influence, if there are 55 structures and 267 people, then between 30 and 45 of those structures, and between 150-210 of the people would be oriented primarily toward food/clothing material (wool and leather) production (they can hunt, trap, etc on the side). That leaves between 57 and 117 people (including children) and 10-25 structures for specialized houses of worship (some will just be someone's home), the inevitable inn, blacksmith, and mill, plus all the other trades, arts, crafts, professions, and businesses (who can raise a few livestock and/or keep a small garden on the side). That's actually quite a lot of "miscellaneous" people.

    One thing to watch is to not overdo the horses and oxen, who need quite a bit of food and fodder to maintain (no, grazing doesn't cut it for work animals--the Indians tried it. Theere's a reason they lost Wink Laughing ). Whatever grain gets raised often winds up feeding the critters. Not sustainable, unless you're going to cart it in from the outside. Of course, carting stuff requires livestock, who in turn require feed and fodder, which in turn...
    GreySage

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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:16 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    not overdo the horses and oxen, who need quite a bit of food and fodder to maintain . . . grazing doesn't cut it for work animals


    Some 80% of the U.S. corn crop goes to feeding live stock, not people. Wink

    So it's back to "just how much cleared land does the village have?" It is all relative. If "we" are growing enough grain for oxen and horses and brewing, then I must ask -- again -- what damn forest? Shocked

    For this reason, I agree that the number of "livestock" needs to be limited in the village. Plow animals should dominate with no "Livery Stable" with horses for rent. Twenty, or so, plow animals are going to eat up enough grain. Confused

    This will enhance interaction with the individual villagers. Any PCs arriving on horseback, of with pack animals, will need to negotiate with the individual farmers in ore to acquire hay and/or grain for their animals. Evil Grin
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    Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:02 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...So it's back to "just how much cleared land does the village have?" It is all relative. If "we" are growing enough grain for oxen and horses and brewing, then I must ask -- again -- what damn forest?


    -Well, the Gamboge is pretty big...

    If a horse eats 8 pounds of feed (oats?) and 8 pounds of fodder (hay? buts lets go for grazing grass) per day, that's 2,950 pounds of each per year. Assume one horse per house, and 55 houses, that's 162,250 pounds of grass per year.

    Assuming 200 pounds of grass per acre, thats 128,000 pounds of grass per square mile. That's a little over one and one-quarter square miles needed for grazing land.

    Now, excellent medieval farming yielded 600 pounds of grain per acre per average growing season (we'll assume that the Gamboge has excellent soil and an average growing season). 100 of those pounds were required for next year's seed (i.e. a 6:1 yield), leaving 500 pounds per acre. That comes out to a little over 320 acres, or a little over half a square mile, to raise horsefeed.

    Total for 55 horses: A little less than two square miles. Of course the Unnamed Village is a few miles within the woodline. That doesn't include area to graze other livestock, or crops for people or other livestock.

    Of course, the yield might not be as good as I've made it. OTOH, magic could augment the productivity.

    Or, you could have fewer horse:

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...For this reason, I agree that the number of "livestock" needs to be limited in the village. Plow animals should dominate with no "Livery Stable" with horses for rent. Twenty, or so, plow animals are going to eat up enough grain...


    -Agreed.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    ...This will enhance interaction with the individual villagers. Any PCs arriving on horseback, of with pack animals, will need to negotiate with the individual farmers in ore to acquire hay and/or grain for their animals. Evil Grin


    -Depending on who has a surplus, I hope the PCs either know some Flan, or can handle broken Common. Of course, when you deal with someone who isn't to good at the language, MISUNDERSTANDINGS WILL HAPPEN. Heh heh heh... Evil Grin
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:20 am  

    I believe we need a village tyromancer.

    https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Grandiloquent-Word-of-the-Day/479146505433648

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPN3KTtrnZM

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    Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:33 am  

    Hey, I'm all for a "wise woman" who foretells the future via a block of cheese. Wink Evil Grin Laughing

    @ Jamesdglick -- Grazing takes one acre per large animal. More . . . if you want to gather hay. Shocked

    @ SirXaris -- I've added a blog to my signature. No stopping the "monster" now! Wink

    All hail Dread Tharizdun!
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    Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:31 am  

    I have begun chewing on all of the replies here and elsewhere. A rough map is taking shape as well. If anybody wants to sketch out some generic locations and send them to me, I'll fit them in. The cud must be chewed well and then pass through five stomachs before it is ready though, so you do have some time. Laughing
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    Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:47 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The cud must be chewed well and then pass through five stomachs before it is ready though, so you do have some time.


    So very true! Laughing

    Cebrion wrote:
    If anybody wants to sketch out some generic locations and send them to me, I'll fit them in.


    Hmm, I think a "general" outline map of the village would necessary to establish "placement" of particular domiciles. Do you already have something along those lines?

    Off hand, I think the "common" (water) well should be located in the center and a rounded, packed earth area should exist around the well, perhaps giving a "circular" look to the "downtown" area. Both the Inn and the Blacksmith would be located here, as would a bakery and leather-working shop -- finished products, not tanning.

    As you've pointed out, the smell of such operations would require the Tanning plant to be located on the edge of the village. I also see the Miller located "on the second block down" from the well, as it were, though not necessarily "on the edge" of the village.

    Perhaps two of the "better" homes might be located in the center "courtyard" as well -- prominent families that have been "leaders" of the community since the beginning. The village "grew up" around their dwellings. One might serve as "Mayor," or "Reeve." Another might be the relatively "wealthy" Blacksmith or Baker.

    Have we decided upon a permanent "Guard" type element? Perhaps a small barracks -- sleeping perhaps six men -- could be located on the circle as well. These "six" would be those men "on duty" at any given time; on the watch for evil humanoids, or visiting "trouble makers."

    Mostly they are the Mayor/Reeve's "muscle," at his call for whatever might be needed . . . perhaps putting out a fire, etc.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:05 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Hmm, I think a "general" outline map of the village would necessary to establish "placement" of particular domiciles. Do you already have something along those lines?

    Some locations have been placed, but what I mean are just cut-outs of locations. For example, draw the outline of a farm and its farmland, and send it to me. I need around 40 such locations.
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Off hand, I think the "common" (water) well should be located in the center and a rounded, packed earth area should exist around the well, perhaps giving a "circular" look to the "downtown" area. Both the Inn and the Blacksmith would be located here, as would a bakery and leather-working shop -- finished products, not tanning.

    As you've pointed out, the smell of such operations would require the Tanning plant to be located on the edge of the village. I also see the Miller located "on the second block down" from the well, as it were, though not necessarily "on the edge" of the village.

    The well is dead center in the village common, which is clear area in the center of the village proper.
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Perhaps two of the "better" homes might be located in the center "courtyard" as well -- prominent families that have been "leaders" of the community since the beginning. The village "grew up" around their dwellings. One might serve as "Mayor," or "Reeve." Another might be the relatively "wealthy" Blacksmith or Baker.

    Already taken into account, in almost exactly that way. Wink
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Have we decided upon a permanent "Guard" type element? Perhaps a small barracks -- sleeping perhaps six men -- could be located on the circle as well. These "six" would be those men "on duty" at any given time; on the watch for evil humanoids, or visiting "trouble makers."Mostly they are the Mayor/Reeve's "muscle," at his call for whatever might be needed . . . perhaps putting out a fire, etc.

    There are no barracks, or anything like that. This is a locale militia-type element, so somewhat informal (until riled up that is). Think of the village as a beehive. The guard bees are normally just cruising around...until somebody messes with the hive. Then they get riled up and quickly organize so as to sting the crap of of the offender. The place is laid back, but the people are conscious that they live in an area that has its own dangers, including those of outside influences (modern Palish zealotry being the main concern). As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan. Other areas have some impediments built into the landscape (mainly ditches, wattle fencing, and thorny hedges), which can be further fortified if need be. Being wary of danger is not what rules the villagers' lives though- they are just prepared.
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    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:15 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan.


    That puts me in mind of something I talked about awhile back, in a couple of other threads:

    From the publication, "1066 The Year of the Conquest," pages 12-19: "A village was surrounded by a fence, and its land by another outer fence. Beyond that were miles and miles of primeval forest and heath, empty and wild . . . "

    This is describing the village of Horstede, which existed at that time and was only a few miles from where William the Conqueror's forces landed.

    Ceb, are you telling me that I'm not the only one here who's read this book? Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I would like to add, however, that after approximately one hundred years, I think the village's "inner" defenses would be a little more substantial than a partially "wattle" built fence. Log palisades are not that hard or complicated to build, just time consuming. But one hundred years is a considerable length of time.

    The "bottoms" of the longs -- perhaps fifteen feet long -- are placed into ditches, which are then filled in. The "tops" of these logs are then lashed together. A ditch dug five feet deep would provide for a fairly "solid" wall, leaving ten feet protruding above ground -- a fence ten feet high. The logs would have been supplied by clearing farm land.

    Just my thinking, but I'll follow your lead on this. Cool
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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:48 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan.


    From the publication, "1066 The Year of the Conquest," pages 12-19: "A village was surrounded by a fence, and its land by another outer fence. Beyond that were miles and miles of primeval forest and heath, empty and wild . . . Ceb, are you telling me that I'm not the only one here who's read this book? Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I have that book,
    Its a good read, but remember its historical fiction.
    If you enjoy that type of reading,
    others are these
    The Medieval Castle by P Warner
    Life in a Medieval Village by J Gies
    In the Time of Knights A bit juvinille but a good short read
    Britian BC by F Prior
    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:34 pm  

    Another excellent historical fiction based upon 9th century Britain (Saxon-controlled, viking raids) is The Saxon Stories by Bernard Cornwell.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:48 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Another excellent historical fiction based upon 9th century Britain (Saxon-controlled, viking raids) is The Saxon Stories by Bernard Cornwell.
    SirXaris

    is it as above or is it Chronicals? or Tales?
    I found these, and have none..
    Chronical Series
    Tales #6
    Are they the same?
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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:40 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Its a good read, but remember its historical fiction.


    DLG, I must tell you that both you and SirXaris are the only two people I have ever heard describe that book as "historical fiction." Some even use the publication for teaching purposes:

    http://www.metabarn.com/papers/1066_year_of_the_conquest.html

    http://steventill.com/2010/05/04/review-of-1066-by-david-howarth/

    http://books.google.com/books/about/1066.html?id=NhkHcJ1i7cgC

    http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/770512.1066

    http://www.johnsmilitaryhistory.com/hastings.html

    I haven't bothered posting all of the links. Are you two sure we're discussing the same book? Confused
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    GreySage

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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:00 pm  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    SirXaris wrote:
    Another excellent historical fiction based upon 9th century Britain (Saxon-controlled, viking raids) is The Saxon Stories by Bernard Cornwell.
    SirXaris

    is it as above or is it Chronicals? or Tales?
    I found these, and have none..
    Chronical Series
    Tales #6
    Are they the same?


    Yep, those are the series, beginning with The Last Kingdom.

    SirXaris
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:48 am  

    Never read that book, but I mentioned this set-up a bit at the beginning of things. I just wasn't sure how far I would take it. Considering the potential threats in the area, the tech level, and the available resources, the defenses I described seemed to me the most common sense thing to put in place without changing the village into something more akin to a wilderness fort. Apparently I have a good feel for this sort of thing. Laughing
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:34 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    Its a good read, but remember its historical fiction.


    DLG, I must tell you that both you and SirXaris are the only two people I have ever heard describe that book as "historical fiction." Some even use the publication for teaching purposes:
    .


    Humm pretty sure we are.... your links seem to confirm, Unless David Howarth wrote more than one rendition?? Wink As fare as "Historical Fiction" I'm pretty sure I am catagorizing correctly. Is it not a Story of Fiction utilizing actual historical elements as support, backdrop and plot drivers?
    As to it being referenced as a teaching tool, (I defer to Lanthorn the resident teacher among us)
    Laughing Laughing Cool
    I would conjecture this.
    1> It doesnt't detract from the interaction of the history, it is only presenting a plausable (and in other cases below less so) sub-plot that would explain, detail, or extrapilate from the historical medium. So it is NOT a slight to refer to it as such. Meaning Fiction = Wrong....

    There are many "stories" that if well researched are premised in fact, yet are stories none the less.

    James Cameron's Titanic> Did the boat sink? Yep, Was Jack and Rose aboard? eh well not so much

    Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code> Did various religious factions struggle for power as detailed? Kinda. Did the Templars have tremendous power and influence and did the French Monarchy conspire against them? Yes. Did a real Robert Langdon really do all those things, no. Did Dan Brown get the world to thinkin Yep Laughing Laughing But still doesn't make it historical fact.

    William Monahan's Kingdom of Heaven > Did the christians and the muslims fight over Jerulsalem, Yep, Could the methods and tactics been as described, sure (espcially the christian armies trotting through the desert) Did King Balwin Exist and was he a leper, yea.
    Just to name a few.

    Heck, even Shakespeare's King Lear & Romeo and Juliet meet the criteria. And we certainly teach those as representative of the period, not as a chronology of it. I know I have sat through many an english literature class with those present. hehe Wink
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    http://www.metabarn.com/papers/1066_year_of_the_conquest.html

    Quote:
    David Howarth's book 1066: The Year of the Conquest would prove to be a useful and important aid for teaching a course dealing with the history of medieval Britain. The book is outstanding in several areas. First, the book is written well. The development of the story is flawless. The reader always knows where he/she stands in the framework of the history.

    I do give thanks for the tip, and have the series ordered.
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:13 am  

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    There are many "stories" that if well researched are premised in fact, yet are stories none the less.


    "Stories?" 1066 wasn't written as a story, or in story form.

    Taken from: http://www.metabarn.com/papers/1066_year_of_the_conquest.html

    "Howarth carefully attempts to weed out the facts from the propaganda and constant religious overtones which dominate the era's literature." (Emphasis mine)

    I prefer the word "propaganda" for the writings of that time too . . . because it was. "Religious" writings of the time were also "propaganda." Little of it is "pure, unadulterated truth." They wrote with their "present" audience in mind, not "future" audiences, or history.

    In my mind, the phrase "historical fiction" equates with the phrase "historical novel;" a thing this publication is not. I wish to distinguish between the two for any readers of these posts that might be confused between the two.

    As all the links confirm, Howarth is dead on target in describing life in Horstede -- or any other medieval English town of the period. Your statement that the book is "historical fiction" implies that he is incorrect in his description, or that he has "taken liberties" with the facts. Howarth didn't do either of those things. That's exactly how life was back then and that's why I used it as an example of what I think "our" village should be.

    So, in this instance, you and I will disagree on the use of the term "historical fiction." Wink

    Of course, as I've said numerous times before, "we" play the game differently. Most of you play the game with a much more "modern day" feel to it. I like my game circa 900 A.D. to 1200 A.D.

    (Incidentally, that time period is before the advent of full plate armor.)
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:20 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    So, in this instance, you and I will disagree on the use of the term "historical fiction." Wink ..

    Well I think that is the root element here. You, if I understand your position, you define fiction as a fabrication or untruth, where I, in this case, define it as a narrative based on fact, yet not substantiated. A "theory" for you Science Majors out there. Laughing Laughing
    A true "history book" would be A History of the Middle Ages by J Dahmus and since it is not a chronical of events, defer it to historical "narrative". Confused Cool Wink

    LONG and the Short of it, Yes it is a GOOD platform to base our village on, and it and t he other listed books are good reads for any interested in the details of that period.
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:04 pm  

    DLG, before Cebrion intervenes, I moved our conversation to The Back Alley forum.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=58388#58388

    So . . . come on down!

    Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:04 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    DLG, before Cebrion intervenes, I moved our conversation to The Back Alley forum.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=58388#58388

    So . . . come on down!

    Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Yea see the Stormclouds rollin in.. I sent you an Private, guess great minds think alike.. or we are both parttime Weathermen Laughing Cool Wink
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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:25 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...There are no barracks, or anything like that. This is a locale militia-type element, so somewhat informal (until riled up that is)...

    -Every home might have a little bell, and others might be scattered around the wells being obvious places, and maybe that tree. The villagers wouldn't have a lot of rules, but ringing one of those bells without a real danger would be one of them. Exclamation

    They would have some sort of leadership, even if it's elected and relatively informal. Before we figure out who, maybe we just create the villagers, and then pick a captain, etc.? The captain wouldn't neccessarily be the highest level guy. INT, WIS, CHA, proficiencies/skills, maybe alignment would count. Maybe some "politics", too.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:26 pm  

    I already figured out the structure, and who is in charge. Bells and horns are alarm mechanisms used.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 31, 2013 6:36 am  

    Sutemi wrote:
    The problem is that life is extremely demanding for a villager and he is so weak (in all imaginable ways) that taking cross-class skills such as survival is hardly an option. It doesn't matter if he has +3 skill modifier or +0 in survival, he cannot make the cut to be a hunter or a trapper.

    This is why I gave up commoners completely for Dry Steppes. The average Baklun there is an Expert 1/Warrior 1 - at minimum.

    I always like to go precisely by the book. This is why I insist that we need plenty of Experts as trappers because druids and rangers are so few (according to DMG) and commoners are almost useless in that role (due to the class and its class skills).

    I have been reviewing the threads and preparing the location list, when this post jumped out at me a bit. Commoners...unable to be effective hunters? Was this an oversight, or is it there, but just "hidden" where most people don't think to look? Well, it turns out it is the latter:
    Quote:
    PROFESSION (Wis; Trained Only)
    You are trained in a livelihood or a professional role, such as apothecary, boater, bookkeeper, brewer, cook, driver, farmer, fisher, guide, herbalist, herder, hunter, innkeeper, lumberjack, miller, miner, porter, rancher, sailor, scribe, siege engineer, stablehand, tanner, teamster, woodcutter, or the like. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. For instance, you could have the skill Profession (cook). Your ranks in that skill don’t affect any checks you happen to make for milling or mining. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents skill in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. To draw a modern analogy, if an occupation is a service industry, it’s probably a Profession skill. If it’s in the manufacturing sector, it’s probably a Craft skill.
    Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. For example, a sailor knows how to tie several basic knots, how to tend and repair sails, and how to stand a deck watch at sea. The DM sets DCs for specialized tasks.
    Action: Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.
    Try Again: An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. (Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time.) An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.
    Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.

    And so no Expert hunters are needed at all, and actually very few "Expert" anythings are needed. The important thing here is not just the presence of the profession "hunter", but all of the professions, and what the Profession skill really is meant to represent. A Blacksmith will have Profession(blacksmith), and may also have Craft (blacksmithing), but the latter skill is not even a requirement for him to be able to do his job and make a living at it. Now, if he does have Craft (blacksmithing) it makes him a bit more accomplished. He can make all of the things that any normal Blacksmith can, but he also might be able to make more specialized things, like master-crafted items (i.e. things suitable for enchantment) which your run-of-the-mill Profession(blacksmith) won't be able to make. "I need some finely wrought iron bands for this Bilarro thing I am enchanting.", said the wizard. Wink

    So, don't worry about commoners being able to do anything, because it is actually is covered in the rules (all editions). Hunters can hunt, trappers can trap, etc. Just don't ask Joe Schmoe Hunter to go hunting owlbears with you or anything- you will want to go with a Ranger on that hunt. Laughing
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 31, 2013 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Fri May 31, 2013 6:46 am  

    You got me Cebrion, well played.
    Too bad that's not in the SRD. It's "unfair" that's in only in the Player's Handbook.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri May 31, 2013 9:45 pm  

    Yes, "hunter" in not in the SRD list, but not every possible profession is listed there either. If something can be done as a profession then it is covered by this skill in the most basic, functional sense.
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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:48 pm  

    Might as well put this here, too:

    On the issue of classes and levels, there's the D&D 3.5 DMG, pp. 138-139.

    I've had some charts I did a while ago, and I'm in the process of typing them up real pretty, so I might as well put them to use here.

    Going through the permutations (by hand, so it might be fallible), you get this for an "average" hamlet with 240 adults:

    Hamlet pop. 240 (51.310 non-Com1 = 21.38%):
    Ftr: 3.250, 1.35%; Rgr: 1.066, 0.44%; Bbn: 1.000, 0.42%; Pal: 0.333, 0.14%; Rog: 3.250, 1.35%; Brd: 2.333, 0.97%; Wiz: 1.000, 0.42%; Sor: 1.000, 0.42%; Clr: 2.333, 0.97%; Drd: 3.223, 1.34%; Mnk: 1.000, 0.42%; War (War2+): 11.929, 4.97% (1.562); Ari (Ari2+): 1.286, 0.54% (0.250); Exp (Exp2+): 10.156, 4.23% (3.936); Adp (Adp2+): 2.036, 0.85% (1.000); (Com2+): (6.120, 2.55%)...

    ...e.g., there would be an average of 3.25 fighters of all levels (1.35% of the adult population), and there would be 10.156 experts of all levels (3.936% of the adult population), 3.936 of whom would be Exp2 or higher. Overall, the 51.31 (or 21.38%) of the adults would be something other than a Com1.

    These figures are for an "average" place in an "average" society (probably heavy on the Forgotten Realms and Eberron, neither of which I'm really familiar with). I've always assumed that the Flaneass would be a lot heavier on fighters, scouts, and experts, but lighter on warriors (since many could be trained very easily to fighter standard), while barbarians, paladins, and monks would normally only be found certain regions. But, although I think our villagers would get in some practice, and would do some sort of training (once quarter at fest time), I don't think the formal training would be that rigorous.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals)...


    ...since our population is higher, would could just add 11% ( x 1.11) to the numbers. In reality, as a community gets larger, the proportion of non-Com1's decreases (only 15.47% in a village of 650), but the odds of a higher than 4th level type increases a little. In most cases, it doesn't make a big difference. But it's a consideration. Since the Gamboge seems a little more dangerous than the average place, I'd round up for levels, averaging hamlets and villages.

    So, I figure that our hamlet-sized "village" would have the following:

    Ftr: Average, round down (Not a whole lot of guys training with heavy armor and tower shields, here, but the incentive to train is here. Maybe some could be swashbucklers or hexblades? Of course, swashbuckler is usually more of an urban thing); 3 fighters, inc. maybe 1 hexblade? Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.

    Rgr: Well above average (The woodland thing is obvious, and IIRC, 75% of men from the Gnarley have at least one level of ranger. I wouldn't go that high here, but even 10% of the population isn't unprecedented. Instead of rangers, they might be scouts); at least 3 rangers or scouts. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for rangers and hamlets).

    Bbn: Well below average, if any (A D&D 3X barbarian is more like an AD&D1 or AD&D2 beserker. The closest places to find them would be the Cold Suel Barbarians, Stonefist, or someone raised in an Orc or Ogre tribe. Not that they couldn't be in the village, but you will have some explaining to do...); 0 barbarians. If there is one, 3rd level max.

    Pal: Well below average, if any. (Same issue as fighters, plus Lawful Good); 0 paladins. If there is one, 2nd level, max.

    Rog: Average, round up (A D&D 3X rogue can be a lot of things other than a thief. The AD&D2 kit for scouts would be ideal. Using the AD&D2 Complete Thief's HB, table 11, it seems unlikely that you'd have more than one rogue in the community who is a full time criminal, if that); 4 rogues or scouts, of whom 1 (a C and/or E-aligned type) might be a rogue of the criminal sort, probably preying on passers-by rather than locals. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.

    Brd: Average, round up (It looks like this place is going to have some sort of Old Faith foundation, and bards fit in to that); 3 bards. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, reasonably as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.

    Wiz: Average, round down (I don't see this place as producing or attracting a lot of wizards, but one hedge wizard wouldn't be out of place, perhaps with an apprentice?); 1 wizard. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.

    Sor: Average, round down; 1 sorcerer, or maybe a hexblade. Probably 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.

    Clr: Average, round down; 2 clerics. Probably 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.

    Drd: Above average (Again, the Old Faith seems to be strong here); 4 druids. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for hamlets and druids).

    Mnk: Well below average, if any. (I mean, come on); 0 monks. If there is one, 3rd level max.

    War: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a War1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter type. A lot of under-trained talent); 14 warriors, inc. at least 2 of whom is a War2 or higher. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level (possibly combined with another class). Any War2s or higher are probably at least 21 years old.

    Ari: Below average (In AD&D terms, an Ari1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter/cavalier type. Maybe the son of the wealthiest folks in town?); 1 aristocrat, probably an Ari1.

    Exp: Average, round up (They're able to make a decent living in the middle of nowhere. They must be doing something right); 12 experts, of whom at least 5 are Exp2 or higher, (possibly combined with another class). Any Exp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.

    Adp: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a 0 level cleric or druid); 3 adepts, or whom at least 1 is an Adp2 or higher. I'd make 2 representatives of non-druid dominant faiths, and one Old Faith. These would also be obvious candidates for midwives and healers. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level. Any Adp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.

    Com: Anyone left over is a commoner, with maybe 6 or 7 of them 2nd level or higher (possibly combined with another class). Any Com2s or higher are probably at least 30 years old.


    Or maybe Cebrion wants to roll the dice randomly, and then modify... Wink

    Since a full stat description isn't even necessary (a "bonus"), this doesn't really limit anyone (if you really want to write up a guy who would probably be a 12th level monk, well, OK...). But maybe we can avoid too many paladins and monks, or super high levels?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:51 pm  

    The population may be increased slightly to account for the fact that this village is free/independent, meaning it (unofficially) lays claim to all lands "in the vicinity", meaning nominal inclusion of those living anywhere in this area. Yep. I somehow hadn't thought of this until now. Laughing

    I would characterize this village as "above average", but I need be a bit more clear on what I mean by that. As to trades people, the village will be fairly average. As to individuals who actually have PC classes, they will be the "above average" component. Basically, these villagers would have the upper hand in a smack down with an equal number of "average" villagers. They are just a slight bit tougher. Most villages will have militia who are Warriors, with just a few fighters among them (former skilled soldiers/adventurers most likely), and led by a few fighters. This village still has Warrior class militia, but there is a higher percentage of villagers than average who are instead fighters or rangers. So, as as to fighting at least, the villagers are more skilled in a general sense, but not by much. There certainly won't be more barbarians, rogues, mages, or clerics though. Those classes would fall into the "average", and paladins would be below average, as the community is not geared towards a LG alignment at all (you can probably count all of the LG villagers on one hand). Monks would be out greatly of place too.

    Also, most armies are made up of Warriors (i.e. a spearman only really needs to know how to use a spear well, a bowman only really needs to know how to use a bow well, etc.). Highly trained forces within armies (like most cavalry and elite versions of regular units that carry an array of weaponry, and so need to know how to fight well with more than one weapon) are the Fighters.
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    Thu Jun 06, 2013 12:18 am  

    Okay, I think I have "THE LIST". If something really, really, really stands out as not being there, and you think it should be in there, let me know. Here we go:

    Main Village Locations

    1. Inn
    2. Blacksmith
    3. Tanner/furrier (trapper)
    4. Carpenter/cooper/wainwright (i.e. if it is wooden and requires skill to make it, this guy makes it)
    5. Cobbler/leather worker
    6. Weaver/dyer/(maybe tailor in with this bunch too)
    7. Bowyer/fletcher
    8. Tavern/brewery
    9. Mason/stoneworker
    10. Merchant/trader
    11. Weaponsmith(armorer)
    12. Potter
    13. Miller
    14. Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman
    15. Butcher
    16. Thatcher (farmer)
    17. Chapel of Beory
    18. Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))
    19. Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri

    Shrines

    1. Obad Hai (out in the woods)
    2. Phyton (out in the woods)
    3. Berei (inner village)
    4. Seldarine (inner village)
    5. Gnomish Gods (inner village)
    6. Halfling Gods (new, inner village)

    There are of course tons of farmers, and more people than not supplement their raised food by hunting/trapping/fishing to some degree. this is just meant to cover the signature locations though, not "Bob the Farmer (28th level arch-priest of Incabulos)" or anything. :D

    So, did I miss anything that wouldn't already be lumped in with the farmers and others?
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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    Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:09 am  

    -What was the magic number for picks?

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Phyton (out in the woods)...


    -Since I was the only one to point out Phyton's apparent popularity in the Pale Underground, I'll take this.

    I see him (male) as an Adept (or 0 level cleric). I'm open to suggestions and rationales as to whether he's a relative newcomer come to "spread the Word," or someone from the village who felt "called".

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...There are of course tons of farmers, and more people than not supplement their raised food by hunting/trapping/fishing to some degree...


    -Dibs on the grizzled farmer/swineherd with the prize, truffle-hunting pig!

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...did I miss anything that wouldn't already be lumped in with the farmers and others?


    -If anything, I'd say you've erred on making the village tradesman heavy...

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Chapel of Beory and the Four Seasons (yeah, they are a Motown group Laughing, and I may nab this one unless somebody really wants to do it badly.)...


    1) I don't think Franky Valli counts as Motown. "Walk like an Elf! Talk like an Elf!"

    2) Does "Four Seasons" imply the Oeridian Aggie gods? If they use the same chapel, does that mean that they have a syncreatic Flann-Oerid religion, or that they simply share the chapel? I don't want the project; I'm, just trying to get an feel for the belief system.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...this is just meant to cover the signature locations though, not "Bob the Farmer (28th level arch-priest of Incabulos)" or anything...


    ...as I pointed out, Bob would be, at most, a 5th level priest of Incabulos. Naturally, he oversees, the secret entrance leading to the Cannibalistic Halflings from the Underdark... Razz
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    Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:55 am  

    Since I don't know what order we're choosing in, I'll hold my claims until Cebrion provides that information.

    However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals. Sugar is, likely, unavailable in that part of the Flanaess, so honey would be a very valuable commodity. I'll just consider him one of the local farmers/ranchers who specializes in raising bees.

    SirXaris
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    Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:49 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Since I don't know what order we're choosing in, I'll hold my claims until Cebrion provides that information...


    -Fair point, but the Phyton thing and the truffle-hunting pig were my ideas... Evil Grin

    SirXaris wrote:
    ..However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals. Sugar is, likely, unavailable in that part of the Flanaess, so honey would be a very valuable commodity. I'll just consider him one of the local farmers/ranchers who specializes in raising bees...


    -I think:
    1) it's a good idea;
    2) it doesn't need "permission", since it falls under the agriculture. Now, a sugar farmer would be hard to explain...
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    Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:19 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:

    1) I don't think Franky Valli counts as Motown. "Walk like an Elf! Talk like an Elf!"

    2) Does "Four Seasons" imply the Oeridian Aggie gods? If they use the same chapel, does that mean that they have a syncreatic Flann-Oerid religion, or that they simply share the chapel? I don't want the project; I'm, just trying to get an feel for the belief system.

    Just ignore that. I am totally brainfarting on everything, singing groups and all. Berry Gordy would not be amused. Laughing Time to edit a few things...

    Also, this isn't the draft, just the preliminary list of choices for the draft. There will be a draft thread which lists the order of choosing. This is just the very final thing to do in preparation for the draft.

    Beekeeper is off the list, as it isn't a full-time profession, but one that a few farmers in the community will do on the side. In the main they are farmers though, and beekeeping isn't the only thing that farmers can do on the side.

    There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change.
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    Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:53 am  

    Okay, check the list again. Wink
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    Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:25 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Beekeeper is off the list, as it isn't a full-time profession, but one that a few farmers in the community will do on the side. In the main they are farmers though, and beekeeping isn't the only thing that farmers can do on the side...


    -In the same way that "swineherd" isn't on the list. It's just the specific form of agriculture.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals...


    -I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that flowers have more pollen for the bees than grains and veggies do; beekeepers often grow flowers to allow for bee-flower symbiotic relationship thing. In a village of 266 adults who spend most of their time on serious business, there might be a market for the beekeeper (or someone else) to sell flowers, particularly during the week-long festivals. And flowers would make great offerings at several of the shrines and chapels.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change.


    -I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.

    Taking the population:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...
    Flan: 32% (85)
    Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
    Oeridian: 14% (37)
    Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
    Elves: 3% (8)
    Half-elves: 8% (21)
    Gnomes: 5% (13)
    Halflings: 2% (5)
    Dwarves: 1% (3)
    That is for the village proper...


    Taking the likely religious types:

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...
    Clr: Average, round down; 2 clerics. Probably 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level...
    Drd: Above average (Again, the Old Faith seems to be strong here); 4 druids. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for hamlets and druids)...
    Adp: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a 0 level cleric or druid); 3 adepts, or whom at least 1 is an Adp2 or higher. I'd make 2 representatives of non-druid dominant faiths, and one Old Faith. These would also be obvious candidates for midwives and healers. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level. Any Adp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old...


    ...with the associated places of worship:

    Cebrion wrote:

    ...Chapel of Beory...
    ...Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))...
    ...Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri...
    ...Obad Hai (out in the woods)...
    ...Phyton (out in the woods)...
    ...Berei (inner village)...
    ...Seldarine (inner village)...
    ...Gnomish Gods (inner village)...
    ...Halfling Gods (new, inner village)...


    ...I assume that the Gnomish and Halfling shrines would probably be cared for by laymen (laygnomes?), or perhaps an Adept. The Seldarine would probably have an Adept, or maybe a Cleric. The other faiths would probably have at least an Adept associated with them, while Beory would have at least one Druid, and Velnius and the Aggies at least one Druid or Cleric. Pelor's chapel of Pelor might have two full time clerics (3rd and 1st level?).

    Of course, there could be more Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or possibly fewer).

    Cebrion wrote:

    ... Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman...


    -An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... Razz ).
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    Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:14 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change.


    -I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.

    As they stand for similar enough principles, they would get along well enough.

    jamesdglick wrote:

    Cebrion wrote:

    ...Chapel of Beory...
    ...Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))...
    ...Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri...
    ...Obad Hai (out in the woods)...
    ...Phyton (out in the woods)...
    ...Berei (inner village)...
    ...Seldarine (inner village)...
    ...Gnomish Gods (inner village)...
    ...Halfling Gods (new, inner village)...


    ...I assume that the Gnomish and Halfling shrines would probably be cared for by laymen (laygnomes?), or perhaps an Adept. The Seldarine would probably have an Adept, or maybe a Cleric. The other faiths would probably have at least an Adept associated with them, while Beory would have at least one Druid, and Velnius and the Aggies at least one Druid or Cleric. Pelor's chapel of Pelor might have two full time clerics (3rd and 1st level?).

    Of course, there could be more Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or possibly fewer).

    Probably laypeople, excepting Obad Hai (there is a druid) and Phyton(a priest). The demi-human shrines were built by the few community members of those races, and while one of them could be a priest, it is not required. Those shrines have been given a place of prominence in the village center as a nod to the good relationship the community has with the demi-humans in their midst as well as with those of the Gamboge. There would be a priest for the chapel of Pelor, a priest for the chapel Beory, and a priest for the chapel of Velnius/the Valaeri, those being major centers of worship in the village. When I say "priest", interpret that to be "priest/priestess". The chapels may very well have a few aspirants as well, as would the shrine of Obad Hai whose caretakers spend most of them time out and about in the Gamboge. Considering where this village is, it would mark out the front battle lines for a druid protecting the forest from interlopers and those seeking to extend their influence into it(i.e. Pholtans), so this druid might be a bit higher level than usual, which would also explain why he has aspirants assigned to him. He/she would also be very wary of those who are new to the village, and of strangers just passing through, and would endeavor to keep tabs on them until satisfied that they were not "up to something". Not that I am throwing out ideas or anything... :D

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:

    ... Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman...


    -An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... Razz ).

    The midwife/herbalist could very well be responsible for and tend the shrine of Berei, which would be very fitting, but there would be no religious rivalry. As stated earlier, the community is partly here due to Pholtan intolerance, so intolerance between faiths is not looked on favorably. Those being outright guilty of such a thing would be shunned by the whole community at the least, or driven out if things were more serious than a mere unfriendliness. Not everyone will get along, but one of the driving ideals behind the community is that its members must work together. Those who don't, or who actively seek to screw with others, will not be looked on favorably.
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    Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:34 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Probably laypeople, excepting Obad Hai (there is a druid) and Phyton(a priest). The demi-human shrines were built by the few community members of those races, and while one of them could be a priest, it is not required. Those shrines have been given a place of prominence in the village center as a nod to the good relationship the community has with the demi-humans in their midst as well as with those of the Gamboge. There would be a priest for the chapel of Pelor, a priest for the chapel Beory, and a priest for the chapel of Velnius/the Valaeri, those being major centers of worship in the village. When I say "priest", interpret that to be "priest/priestess". The chapels may very well have a few aspirants as well, as would the shrine of Obad Hai whose caretakers spend most of them time out and about in the Gamboge...


    -Yeah. I doubt that there would be any clergy for the halflings or gnomes, unless of them was such as a statistical oddity. Statistically, there should be enough Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or 0 level clerics for pre-D&D 3X) for all the others to have at least one rep, and at least two for Pelor.

    Cebrion wrote:

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.


    As they stand for similar enough principles, they would get along well enough...

    Considering where this village is, it would mark out the front battle lines for a druid protecting the forest from interlopers and those seeking to extend their influence into it...

    He/she would also be very wary of those who are new to the village, and of strangers just passing through, and would endeavor to keep tabs on them until satisfied that they were not "up to something"...


    -Actually, in the LGG credos, there's a difference between Obad-Hai and Phyton. While Obad-Hai largely defends the wilderness as is, Phyton love the wilderness not just for what it is, but for what people can do with it (i.e., "development", which is why I think Phyton makes a good "pioneer" god). Now, that doesn't mean that Obad Hai's worshippers are against the use of nature for any reason, any time (or they'd be against houses), but there is a difference. The Obad-Haiers (?) could also see the Pytonites (?) as "interlopers", particularly if their Cleric/Adept is an outsider (I'm assuming that at least one of Obad Hai's Druids or Adepts is a local).

    I'm not suggesting open warfare, even overt hostility (although that could be the case). More like rudeness, particularly on the part of Obad-Hai's druid versus the Phytonites.

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... Razz ).

    The midwife/herbalist could very well be responsible for and tend the shrine of Berei, which would be very fitting, but there would be no religious rivalry. As stated earlier, the community is partly here due to Pholtan intolerance, so intolerance between faiths is not looked on favorably....[/quote]

    -Puritans, Baptists, and Quakers all showed up in the Massachusetts Bay Colony due to religious intolerance.

    They didn't necessarily get along...

    Quakers, Mennonites, Lutherans, and Presbyterians all showed up in Philadelphia due to religious intolerance.

    They didn't necessarily get along...

    They would pull together in the face of an active common threat. But if there wasn't a common threat, there were times they'd be fighting in the streets (say, election time Our Savage Neighbors makes for interesting reading wrt to Pennsylvania). Cuthbertines and Trithereons had nothing to teach them. Razz

    I'm not advocating anything that extreme. Not that it wouldn't be interesting, but I just don't see how 266 adults would be able to stay together like that; after all, they could move elsewhere (although maybe they'd think "THEY can move elsewhere" Evil Grin ). I'm thinking of a milder version of the attitudes between Cuthbertines and Old Faith adherents in Hommlet. Of course, unlike Hommlet, where the Cuthbertine "interlopers" have been prodded by a government (Verbobonc/Veluna), everyone showed up on their own initiative.

    As for rival midwives, I'm thinking (generally) friendly rivals (my HH/LP analogy).

    Of course, all that could change in the future (for the better, or worse).

    Any ideas for where the hamlet/village goes after CY 577? And what about that name?
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    Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:49 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:

    -Actually, in the LGG credos, there's a difference between Obad-Hai and Phyton. While Obad-Hai largely defends the wilderness as is, Phyton love the wilderness not just for what it is, but for what people can do with it (i.e., "development", which is why I think Phyton makes a good "pioneer" god). Now, that doesn't mean that Obad Hai's worshippers are against the use of nature for any reason, any time (or they'd be against houses), but there is a difference. The Obad-Haiers (?) could also see the Pytonites (?) as "interlopers", particularly if their Cleric/Adept is an outsider (I'm assuming that at least one of Obad Hai's Druids or Adepts is a local).

    I'm not suggesting open warfare, even overt hostility (although that could be the case). More like rudeness, particularly on the part of Obad-Hai's druid versus the Phytonites.

    I know what the LGG says. The gist is, "A few yeas ago, Phyton sent out a memo to his followers telling them that everything that they had been doing for millenia was a load of crap, and that they now have a new mission statement to follow." Perhaps it is just me, but I think that...

    Obad Hai: "Look here at this ancient heartwood tree. It has stood on this spot for thousands of years in the wild, pure and untouched. Isn't it beautiful?"

    Phyton: "Yeah, it is really nice! We could cut that sucker down and build a lovely wooden skyscraper right where it was using its own wood!"


    ...rather sucks, in my oh so humble opinion. Razz Phyton is not the god of natural sources, but of nature and its beauty. But somebody just had to go and screw with things and bring in a more modern twist, "improving" it. I wouldn't tell anybody who wants to write it up what spin to take on the Shrine of Phyton or his worshipers, but my views on the subject are plain enough I think.

    At this point, there is no issue between followers of Obad Hai and Phyton, as worshipers of Phyton have been in the area almost from the village's inception (though followers of Obad Hai have surely been in the area for far longer). They play nice, and make a point to not step on each others' toes. Obad Hai has a larger following to be sure.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Puritans, Baptists, and Quakers all showed up in the Massachusetts Bay Colony due to religious intolerance.

    They didn't necessarily get along...

    Quakers, Mennonites, Lutherans, and Presbyterians all showed up in Philadelphia due to religious intolerance.

    They didn't necessarily get along...

    The Gamboge folk's situation has nothing in common with that of those people. Were those people subjects of some power? Yes. Were they living on land owned by various powers? Yes. Were they under the protection of those powers? Yes. Were they paying taxes to those powers? Yes. Did they have a foreign power directly on their border? No. How about the Gamboge folk? Despite various claims, are the Gamboge folk citizens of any power? No. Do they live under the laws of any power? No. Do they pay taxes to any power? No. Do they live under the protection of any power? No. Is there an ocean between them and every foreign power who wants to take their land? No. Are they surrounded by powers who want to take their land? Yes. Getting the picture yet? The situation for the Gambogefolk is nothing like it was for those you mentioned. They rely on nobody but themselves, because nobody else has their best interests in mind, and they know it. Consequently there is a level of cooperation among the Gambogefolk that that is nothing like the slap fights and pissing matches of various Protestant sects in the Americas at the time you mention (at least they didn't kill each other, but they were almost all intolerant of "others"). The various groups within the Gambogefolk have more pressing matters to worry about than decrying that this or that faction are the only true followers of The Word- they leave that to the Pholtans, who they do not hold in high regard at all.

    And so they are rather cooperative. Do some people not get along? Sure, that is normal, but they don't let it get out of hand because it is counter to their established culture. They didn't leave one toxic environment to create another on their own terms. They are much more about standing together, such that others can't take their stuff, nor tell them how to worship. Perhaps if they were to reach a point where outside influences were a non-issue might they then look closer to home to find more petty squabbles to become embroiled in, but they don't currently have that "luxury", as they are much more concerned about what outside forces want to take from them or make them do. The village isn't some sort of utopia though- people are just a bit more respectful of one another because they realize that they will be relying on each other when things go bad, which they have in the past (you will have to wait for more on that).

    Also, including all of the people who live in the vicinity of the village, the total population may be increasing by 50% or more, as the area that the village oversees doesn't end at the outskirts of its developed land. I am working on developing this a bit more at the moment.
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    Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:16 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...I know what the LGG says. The gist is, "A few yeas ago, Phyton sent out a memo to his followers telling them that everything that they had been doing for millenia was a load of crap, and that they now have a new mission statement to follow." Perhaps it is just me, but I think that... ...rather sucks, in my oh so humble opinion...


    1) Last I checked, we're trying to go with canon, for the benefit of universality. That includes "Things Which Cebrion Thinks 'Rather Suck'". Laughing

    2) IIRC, Len Lakofka never really explored the topic. I haven't had a look at the original in Dragon (issue # 80-something?). But they may have had druid in the original imagining.

    3) The credo in LGG is the best reason to include Phyton (other than the fact that he's listed among the deities worshipped sub rosa in the Pale). These villages (hamleters) are pioneers. A representative who encourages them to make the best of what they've got is a lot more appealing than some cranky paranoid shouting "Hey you kids! got outta my woods, or I'll sick my owl on you!" Laughing

    The cleric's (or adept's) mission would be sort of like an unofficial county ag' agent, helping folks develop their land in the same way that the representative of Berei might help as a midwife.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...The Gamboge folk's situation has nothing in common with that of those people. Were those people subjects of some power? Yes. Were they living on land owned by various powers? Yes. Were they under the protection of those powers? Yes....


    -Fair point for Massachusetts at any time, but Pennsylvania circa 1750? Barely, particularly when you go outside the treaty area.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ... Were they paying taxes to those powers? Yes...


    -Actually, Pennsylvania was business, and didn't have taxes until the Revolution. They were also the only colony to not have a draft.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ... The situation for the Gambogefolk is nothing like it was for those you mentioned. They rely on nobody but themselves, because nobody else has their best interests in mind, and they know it...


    -Pretty much the situation in York, Cumberland, or Lancaster counties ca. 1750. If there was a "foreign power", there were the Delawares to the west and an encroaching Pennsylvania and Royal governments to the east.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...They didn't leave one toxic environment to create another on their own terms...


    -Who does? Pioneers usually go somewhere where they think things go be their way.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...Consequently there is a level of cooperation among the Gambogefolk that that is nothing like the slap fights and pissing matches of various Protestant sects in the Americas at the time you mention (at least they didn't kill each other, but they were almost all intolerant of "others")...


    -"Romanticized Pioneer" is fine. The point of my diversion in mid-18th C PA is that I was considering something a little grittier...

    jamesdglick wrote:
    ...Do some people not get along? Sure, that is normal, but they don't let it get out of hand because it is counter to their established culture...

    ...but not that much grittier. Again, nothing like Trithereons vs. Cuthbertines.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...(you will have to wait for more on that)....


    -Any hints? It would help with development. Of course, since my number is "100", that makes me (ahem) last ( Confused ), so I guess I've got time. For now, I'm working on a swineherd and relatives, which could easily cover 3 domiciles. They'll fit in anywhere.

    Also, there's a woodland trail that goes to the hamlet. Does it continue? Where to? Wood Elves? How difficult is the trail to Nyrond (there has to be some path, however circuitous, that eventually gets there. Several, actually, if you consider all the branch-offs)?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:58 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    1) Last I checked, we're trying to go with canon, for the benefit of universality. That includes "Things Which Cebrion Thinks 'Rather Suck'". Laughing

    I know we are, and I stated as much. However, the baseline is the 83' WoGH boxed set era of material, at which time Phyton had apparently not had his "Not only can we smoke this stuff- we can build stuff out of it too, man! We gotta clear more land, dude!" epiphany. So, people are free to use whatever they wish from canon, or not. :D

    jamesdglick wrote:
    2) IIRC, Len Lakofka never really explored the topic. I haven't had a look at the original in Dragon (issue # 80-something?). But they may have had druid in the original imagining.

    Phyton is served by many druids (not exactly proponents of bringing back-hoes and going all Amazon Rainforest on the Gamboge) and chaotic good priests. He is also served by groves of treants, not cords of treants, which are not exactly volunteering to be made into log cabins, china hutches, etc., nor see all of their less motile buddies done that way ("My yewish friend Leonard over there is just dieing to let out his inner spindle-backed chair." Laughing). Phyton is a god of beauty and nature, not beauty and using nature (at least not any more than any other nature god that is, as everything in nature is pretty much going to be used by something else in nature), and will surely more likely be served by various animals rather than be served up various animals. Laughing

    But that is all besides the point...

    jamesdglick wrote:
    3) The credo in LGG is the best reason to include Phyton (other than the fact that he's listed among the deities worshipped sub rosa in the Pale). These villages (hamleters) are pioneers. A representative who encourages them to make the best of what they've got is a lot more appealing than some cranky paranoid shouting "Hey you kids! got outta my woods, or I'll sick my owl on you!" Laughing[/b]

    The cleric's (or adept's) mission would be sort of like an unofficial county ag' agent, helping folks develop their land in the same way that the representative of Berei might help as a midwife.

    Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue. Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done. The only thing that the priests will do ensure there is nor abuse, if needed. The founders did this, and those that came after have done this, which is why Obad Hai and Phyton have been ever present, and yet have not had to "wicker man' a bunch of blasphemers every decade or so. Due to the type of people who founded (and continue to live in) the community, there has pretty much always been an understanding regarding the balance of nature, and by that I do not mean the whole True Neutral thing, but not depleting the flora and fauna of the area, such that its resources will not be renewed. The community is not the real source of any "grittiness" or trouble. It could be, but our purpose is not to write an adventure here, just give an overview of an area where one could happen (I think you blur these cross-purposes a bit too much in your mind). It is perfectly fine to write in a dangling plot string here and there (i.e. "Ned's prize truffler recently went missing in the woods, and he is offering a reward to anyone who can find her.", etc.), but not more than that.
    jamesdglick wrote:
    -"Romanticized Pioneer" is fine. The point of my diversion in mid-18th C PA is that I was considering something a little grittier...

    That's the thing- even "romanticized pioneers" is beyond off the mark. The "pioneers" are *long dead*, and developing land 500 yards from a village palisade is not exactly pioneering. At this time, there is just a slowly expanding community- stick with that emphasis.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    The village isn't some sort of utopia though- people are just a bit more respectful of one another because they realize that they will be relying on each other when things go bad, which they have in the past (you will have to wait for more on that).


    -Any hints? It would help with development. Of course, since my number is "100", that makes me (ahem) last ( Confused ), so I guess I've got time. For now, I'm working on a swineherd and relatives, which could easily cover 3 domiciles. They'll fit in anywhere.

    There will be a brief on the village, its history, and a preliminary map even.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Also, there's a woodland trail that goes to the hamlet. Does it continue? Where to? Wood Elves? How difficult is the trail to Nyrond (there has to be some path, however circuitous, that eventually gets there. Several, actually, if you consider all the branch-offs)?

    It goes into the Gamboge and leads to elven, gnomish, and other communities. The trail undoubtedly emerges on the Nyrond side of the Gamboge. More than that (and what has been mentioned before regarding outside powers) you have absolutely no need to know. We are not detailing the entire Gamboge Forest. We are not detailing the entire inner workings of the village community. We are not writing an adventure. We are each detailing a few locations, in a village, in the Gamboge Forest that a DM may (or may not) make use of part or all of. This means that everyone should write articles with the aim to strike a balance between keeping things simple, and yet interesting. That means not getting so specific that anyone runs roughshod over anybody elses' articles. Keep to your own topics as much as possible.

    "But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!

    No, they do not need to know that! Laughing

    Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them. "6. Children's Bedroom" is a perfectly fine description of a simple and unimportant room. Also describe the people there, and anything usual/unusual as well.
    Main location articles should be around 2-5 pages in length, depending on the size/complexity of the location. If anybody has more than that, they have probably gone off the deep end of over thinking things. Secondary location articles should be 1-3 pages in length at most (simple maps are highly recommended here as well), depending on the size/complexity of the location, and, once again, having much more that that points to going off the deep end.

    Basically, write a short, informative essay on each location, make a map, number and label the locations on the map, and describe any map locations that require it. A simple farm house for instance may not require any interior description other than room labels, the exterior description and a general description of who lives there and what they do being just fine. What we are NOT looking for is...

    Chapter 1- The Book of Ned (being a recounting of the line of Ned from the villages inception, by Ned).

    Chapter 2- The Things that Ned Does (by Ned)

    Chapter 3- The Things Ned's Family Does (what my family does, by Ned)

    Chapter 3- How to properly Build a Farmhouse of Bronzewood (by Ned)

    Chapter 4- The Names of My Pigs (452 pages of champion swine, by Ned)

    Chapter 5- I Think Those Elves in Hex W2-64 Stole my Prize Truffler (let me tell you all about their village and the fifteen suspects I have, by Ned)

    Please turn it down from 11 to, like, 6 or 7.

    Laughing

    Also, I have a draft thread in the works (you all can't see it at the moment), and it just awaits a preliminary village map to launch it. I'll try and have it ready by the weekend.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:21 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ..."But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!

    No, they do not need to know that!


    1) Actually, markets are key!

    2) I wasn't actually thinking of that; I assumed that there'd be enough of a market in the village, plus a little trade with Abbotsford or Woodsedge, but now that you mention it... Laughing

    3) Gnomes do not love truffles. Dwarves do. They use it in their beer... Wink

    I was actually thinking about what sort of contacts they might have to the south. One issue might be passers-through who would be agents of Nyrond. Another is, some new people show up, but where do people raised in the hamlet (still need a name) go? Not everyone is going to stick around. Some of the kids might move to the Pale (true love, or ideology), but I think more would head south.

    Cebrion wrote:
    Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue...


    -Not a city planner:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_extension

    "Agricultural extension is a general term meaning the application of scientific research and new knowledge to agricultural practices through farmer education. The field of 'extension' now encompasses a wider range of communication and learning activities organized for rural people by educators from different disciplines, including agriculture, agricultural marketing, health, and business studies..."

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done...


    -Uh, someone forgot to tell the farmers:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_extension

    "It is not known where or when the first extension activities took place. It is known, however, that Chinese officials were creating agricultural policies, documenting practical knowledge, and disseminating advice to farmers at least 2,000 years ago. For example, in approximately 800 BC, the minister responsible for agriculture under one of the Zhou dynasty emperors organized the teaching of crop rotation and drainage to farmers. The minister also leased equipment to farmers, built grain stores and supplied free food during times of famine.

    The birth of the modern extension service has been attributed to events that took place in Ireland in the middle of the 19th century. Between 1845–51 the Irish potato crop was destroyed by fungal diseases and a severe famine occurred (see Great Irish Famine). The British Government arranged for "practical instructors" to travel to rural areas and teach small farmers how to cultivate alternative crops. This scheme attracted the attention of government officials in Germany, who organized their own system of traveling instructors. By the end of the 19th century, the idea had spread to Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, and France..."

    ...and unlike clerics, these guys didn't even have magic to help them along (at least, as far as we know... Evil Grin ).

    ...and today:

    http://www.pickyourown.org/countyextensionagentoffices.htm

    "Find your local county extension office with this list of the agricultural extension offices across the US..."

    There's a reason people go to college to learn about agriculture, and it's not just about the cool fraternity. Laughing

    Now, it is possible that some of the hamleters won't appreciate help because their flat out stupid (INT or WIS), or insecure (WIS), and perhaps the clerics CHA. But even a 1st level Adept might have a helpful spell or a "knowledge (nature)" skill which most commoners would lack.

    Cebrion wrote:
    That's the thing- even "romanticized pioneers" is beyond off the mark. The "pioneers" are *long dead*, and developing land 500 yards from a village palisade is not exactly pioneering....


    -Tell that to a frontiersman who was 500 yards from the fort when the Apache showed up. Laughing

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Due to the type of people who founded (and continue to live in) the community, there has pretty much always been an understanding regarding the balance of nature, and by that I do not mean the whole True Neutral thing, but not depleting the flora and fauna of the area, such that its resources will not be renewed...


    -Hmmm...

    Druid of Obad Hai and sidekick arrive to confront farmer Bob and his family, who are clearing a new acre to add to their cropland:

    Druid: "I ask you to cease and desist. I believe this new clearing to be excessive, and offensive to The Shalm. One should live in harmony with nature in all its variety."

    Bob: "Yeah, well, these acres are unusually acidic, but my daughter was talking that friendly rep' of Phyton, and he pointed out that that the acidity would be great for the asparagus I've been thinking of trying out."

    Druid: "THOSE WHO DESTROY OR OTHERWISE HARM NATURE DESERVE SWIFT VENGEANCE IN AN APPROPRIATE MANNER!"

    Bob: "Look, Hoss, my family didn't leave the Pale so we could be bullied by some jerk with a tree fetish. No wonder all the dryads go for Ehlonna instead of you. So, in a spirit of cooperation, I suggest [...as Bob's family reach for their axes and crossbows...] that you mind your own business, which consists of giving religious guidance to people actually who ask for it. You can leave before I count to 20, or we can rack up 900-1500 experience points at your expense."

    The Druid turns on his heel, followed by his sidekick, muttering under his breath about a lack of respect for the traditions of the Shalm, all the while counting to 20 in his head while wondering "how did he know about my old girlfriend!?" [Farmer Bob's family earns 90-150 XPs for successfully resolving the issue without violence, which is just enough to kick Bob up to 3rd level! Laughing ]

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them...


    -Hmmm...

    I haven't done a PP or a jpeg in a while, and I don't think I've ever done "construction" with one. I might need assistance, or I could simply describe it.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:08 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ..."But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!

    No, they do not need to know that!


    1) Actually, markets are key!

    2) I wasn't actually thinking of that; I assumed that there'd be enough of a market in the village, plus a little trade with Abbotsford or Woodsedge, but now that you mention it... Laughing

    3) Gnomes do not love truffles. Dwarves do. They use it in their beer... Wink

    I was actually thinking about what sort of contacts they might have to the south. One issue might be passers-through who would be agents of Nyrond. Another is, some new people show up, but where do people raised in the hamlet (still need a name) go? Not everyone is going to stick around. Some of the kids might move to the Pale (true love, or ideology), but I think more would head south.

    Once again, you are over thinking it. You don't need woodland or southern development. Just say "Ned does business with communities in the forest, and to the south.", not that he probably does. He probably does business only with the local community because it is capable of consuming what he (and others) produces, as he (and other farmers) is not an industrial level farmer. How difficult is that? Not difficult at all.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue...


    -Not a city planner:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_extension

    "Agricultural extension is a general term meaning the application of scientific research and new knowledge to agricultural practices through farmer education. The field of 'extension' now encompasses a wider range of communication and learning activities organized for rural people by educators from different disciplines, including agriculture, agricultural marketing, health, and business studies..."


    That quote confirms everything I think. Sorry, the village isn't a part of an empire, nor does it have the resources of an empire or modern knowlege. The village also isn't a part of anything even remotely as regimented/codified/overseen as ancient China, Rome, and similar empires were. It's a small, Medieval-ish village, with Medieval-ish know-how.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done...


    -Uh, someone forgot to tell the farmers:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_extension

    "It is not known where or when the first extension activities took place. It is known, however, that Chinese officials were creating agricultural policies, documenting practical knowledge, and disseminating advice to farmers at least 2,000 years ago. For example, in approximately 800 BC, the minister responsible for agriculture under one of the Zhou dynasty emperors organized the teaching of crop rotation and drainage to farmers. The minister also leased equipment to farmers, built grain stores and supplied free food during times of famine.

    The birth of the modern extension service has been attributed to events that took place in Ireland in the middle of the 19th century. Between 1845–51 the Irish potato crop was destroyed by fungal diseases and a severe famine occurred (see Great Irish Famine). The British Government arranged for "practical instructors" to travel to rural areas and teach small farmers how to cultivate alternative crops. This scheme attracted the attention of government officials in Germany, who organized their own system of traveling instructors. By the end of the 19th century, the idea had spread to Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, and France..."

    ...and unlike clerics, these guys didn't even have magic to help them along (at least, as far as we know... Evil Grin ).

    ...and today:

    http://www.pickyourown.org/countyextensionagentoffices.htm

    "Find your local county extension office with this list of the agricultural extension offices across the US..."

    There's a reason people go to college to learn about agriculture, and it's not just about the cool fraternity. Laughing;

    Once again, empire/modern practices. You commit the mistake of one, thinking in modern terms, and two, thinking that ancient common people were inept and incapable of doing anything well enough on their own. What, some government official who probably never farmed in their life figured it all out and then told them what they needed to do? Hardly. All those empires did was allocate resources to study the methods that *farmers already knew and used*, and spread knowledge of the most efficient ways of doing things (Hey you! Use fish manure instead of oxen manure, because your yield will be 4% higher!", etc). That sort of information was further studied and codified over time, and had any new information from technological advancement added to it, to become what is studied today. Doesn't mean that the ancient common people couldn't grow crops without having somebody who never had dirt under their finger nails tell them how?

    You may recall that the Native Americans befriended by the Pilgrims showed them what to grow, and *how to do it*, so that they would not go through again what they did their first winter in the New World. They thought the Pilgrims were basically morons, and rightly so, for starving to death as much as they did that first year, and I am pretty sure that it didn't take the resources/bureaucracy of an empire for the Native Americans to know, let alone be able to pass on, the super-secret formula of "Dig hole; put in dead fish; put in seed; cover it up; water as needed." This is not exactly something easily forgotten. It is not that complicated, and when people are doing *something to survive*, they tend to learn how to do it well enough, because if they don't, they die, and so do not pass on their ineptitude. The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods. You are once again way, way, way over thinking it- "anachronistially" even. Know the topic and relate to it from *its own* perspective, rather than know your own perspective and impose it upon the topic. "The ancient Chinese empire did things this way, so the village should too." is exactly the wrong way to think.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Now, it is possible that some of the hamleters won't appreciate help because their flat out stupid (INT or WIS), or insecure (WIS), and perhaps the clerics CHA. But even a 1st level Adept might have a helpful spell or a "knowledge (nature)" skill which most commoners would lack.

    Once again, you ignore that the community has been there a while. There were farmers in the area here doing what they know how to do *before* there were priests also living among the community. And they apparently survived because they knew what they were doing. Any teachings that priests could give would have been implemented generations ago and have been passed down, such that it is utterly a non-issue at this point in time, and therefore a non-topic. Do they ask the priests for advice now? No, not really, because they don't need to (and didn't really ever need to much anyways). Now, if some *unknown* blight were to strike the crops would the farmers then seek the priests out for advice? Of course they would, but then we aren't talking about anything like that now, are we, just "how to farm". The farmers know their stuff well enough, as farmers usually do.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them...

    I haven't done a PP or a jpeg in a while, and I don't think I've ever done "construction" with one. I might need assistance, or I could simply describe it.

    People just need to get a piece of graph paper, draw their map on it in *black ink*, label the areas with numbers, scan it or take a picture of it with their phone's camera or a camera, and e-mail it to me. Anybody who can't manage this, to them I would simply ask, "Could you tell me exactly how you managed to get on the intarwebz?" Wink I will be working to put any rough maps that are submitted into a more finished form. If you all give me map that look like the top one in the picture below, and I'll provide maps for everyone that look more like the bottom one.



    This will be fairly easy for me to do, as the buildings will be very small (even if there will be a lot of them). Then, if we are lucky, somebody will volunteer to create a nicer looking final village map with everything in its place. Finally, if we can do all of this, we may also compile everything as a special release for Canonfire! Chronicles (but that would happen later on). Cool
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    Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:00 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Once again, empire/modern practices. You commit the mistake of one, thinking in modern terms, and two, thinking that ancient common people were inept and incapable of doing anything well enough on their own... The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods...


    -You're being overly literal. No "empire" has to order a cleric of Phyton (or anyone else) what to do, it's just something he does because he wants to.

    The fact that someone accepts help in their trade does not mean they are inept. (You must be real hoot when you go for re-training... Wink ).

    The point is that any sensible farmer knows he can use a little help, and will take it if someone offers it, if the advice seems good.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...You may recall that the Native Americans befriended by the Pilgrims showed them what to grow, and *how to do it*, so that they would not go through again what they did their first winter in the New World...it didn't take the resources/bureaucracy of an empire for the Native Americans to know, let alone be able to pass on, the super-secret formula of "Dig hole; put in dead fish; put in seed; cover it up; water as needed."


    -I remember those ridiculous pictures of Indians teaching Pilgrims to bury a fish next to the maize they wanted to grow from my elementary school book, yes (actually, a quick check shows that they're still doing those pictures. Good God). But there's zero evidence that the Patuxent (or any other New England Indians) ever did that, and if Squanto was teaching the Pilgrims to do that, then he was a gigantic moron, because they would be going to the trouble of catching a fish (high protein) to gain a trivial gain in (low protein) maize. There is a theory that Squanto picked up the basic concept of fish fertilizer while a prisoner in England, but they used the bones and gizzard, not the whole fish, and it wouldn't have helped much with maize anyway.

    It's hard to tell who should be more insulted by the story: The Indians or the Pilgrims. Laughing

    Which brings us to:

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...They thought the Pilgrims were basically morons, and rightly so, for starving to death as much as they did that first year...


    -Actually, the Pilgrims brought plenty of grain, but most of the grain went bad during the delay caused by the storm which convinced them to land at Plymouth instead of Virginia. You can't grow what you don't have.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ... It is not that complicated, and when people are doing *something to survive*, they tend to learn how to do it well enough, because if they don't, they die, and so do not pass on their ineptitude...


    - Going back to your example of the Pilgrims: Once they were in America, without their grain, the Pilgrims were stuck with maize for a while. The reason they went to the Indians is that the Indians knew all the ins and outs of growing maize, which consists of a lot more than "dig a hole, dump in corn, water it, watch it grow." There are soil conditions, temperature, moisture, crop-specific pest and blight problems. Experience deals with some of that, but sometimes problems roll around that even the eldest haven't run into. You want a body of knowledge that goes beyond that.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Once again, you ignore that the community has been there a while...


    -No, I didn't.

    Going back to my example of farmer Bob, if he's growing a crop (asparagus) that he's never grown before, he'll want help. Actually, in that case, someone who had a wide body of knowledge (the Phyton guy) was able to make a suggestion which farmer Bob (who generally only knows what he's taught or heard) wouldn't have even considered.

    The emergencies you mention which would require fancier knowledge (blight, pests, drought, etc) come along in some way almost every year. Any farmer I've ever talked seems to consider his crops and livestock to be in a perpetual state of emergency. Laughing

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods. You are once again way, way, way over thinking it- "anachronistially" even..


    1) Careful. "Anachronistically" is a fighting word for a historian. Cool I seriously doubt that you've studied medieval agriculture as much as I have (which isn't my specialty, but does have a bit of bearing on my field).

    2) As I often say, the Flaneass isn't exactly medieval, but quasi-medieval. Their technological level may be circa 1445 (minus gunpowder, plus galleons, which is sort of contradictory, but anyway), but their way of thinking is generally a lot more modern.

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...People just need to get a piece of graph paper, draw their map on it in *black ink*, label the areas with numbers, scan it or take a picture of it with their phone's camera or a camera, and e-mail it to me...


    -The scanning part is the problem...

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...Anybody who can't manage this, to them I would simply ask, "Could you tell me exactly how you managed to get on the intarwebz?"


    -I don't have a home computer or a scanner. I use a variety of library computers; they generally wouldn't appreciate me monkeying with their computers, regardless of how wonderful a patron I am. Laughing

    And my cell phone is a cell phone. It doesn't draw pictures or show me true north. I do both myself. Wink
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:25 pm  

    Well, perhaps you can draw using lines, letters, numbers and spaces in an actual post. It takes a bit of time, but it is not difficult. For example:

    Map:

    __________________________________
    l____________l_____________________l
    l____________l_____________________l
    l____________l_____________________l
    l_____2______l__________3__________l
    l____________l_____________________l
    l____________l_____________________l
    l_____0______l__________0__________l_______0_______
    l____________l_____________________l_______0_______l
    l____________l_____________________l_______0_______l
    l____________l_____1_______________l_______4_______l
    l____________l_____________________0_______________l
    l____________l_____________________l_______________l
    l____________l_____________________l_______________l
    l_____________________0____________l_______________l


    Key:

    ______________ = 10 ft. (building footprint = 20 ft. X 35 ft. overall)

    0 = door

    All walls are meant to be straight (of course).

    That is all I would need to translate it to a finished version. As to the simple entries, like a farmhouse, they should be something like this:

    "29. Farmhouse

    Brief description.

    1. Entry Room

    Brief description.

    2. Farmer's Bedroom

    Brief description.

    3. Children's Bedroom

    Brief description.

    4. Kitchen/Pantry

    Brief description.

    Closing details regarding anything interesting about the location."

    Something like the above should be the standard for a location as simple as a farmhouse.

    As to the rest, it is unnecessary to delve this deep into any related topic to write up "29. Farmhouse". Describe the location and any key points, not write a treatise on the history of industrial farming, animal husbandry, how monks were instrumental in preserving and teaching farming methods post Dark Ages...er...post Greyhawk Wars; fish poo or cow poo- which is better; market shares in pork bellies, pork rinds, and pork chops- the gnomish connection; why my neighbors' grass is greener than mine, etc. Delve into whatever research you want to, but leave the extraneous information out of your offerings. Keep it close to the sort of description you would see for such locations in an adventure. Don't write "Farmhouse- The Collected EPIC Series!!!", but "29. Farmhouse".

    Seeing as there is apparently nothing else to add to the locations list, this thread seems to be a done deal. Back to mapping for me...
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