..
1) I thought DLG's mortar & pestle was a joke. I still do.
It was ... but hey every home needs the "new and improved" ULTRA PESTLE... It grinds, it crushes, it pounds.... and yours today for only 19.95,,, plus Dragonmail delivery ofcourse.
jamesdglick wrote:
..
2) The blacksmith may have been there for decades, but the baker may be new, meeting the demands of a growing village. Can anyone think of a reason that the old forge might need replacing? Wells can use re-shoring from time to time. It depends.
Not necessarily, it is plausable with the abundance of wood resources that most Iron type tools could be ported in or sold via travelers... as to replacing the forge.... not really even today, most modern glass forges/ furnaces run 24/7 for decades... It could require "expanding" due to the increase in and varied new demands...
...It was ... but hey every home needs the "new and improved" ULTRA PESTLE... It grinds, it crushes, it pounds.... and yours today for only 19.95,,, plus Dragonmail delivery ofcourse...
-"Look at Kelly grind, grind, grind!"
"Buy now, and you get not one, not two, but THREE new and improved ULTRA PESTLES!"
...btw, is that 19.95 basics, or silver moons?
Cebrion wrote:
...
...At this point, I am going to lay out some basic information on the village.
So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals)...The village itself is comprised of 50+ structures, including some located farther out from the village proper...
...and...
Cebrion wrote:
Yes, that 267 is total populace, not just adults, but this is for the village proper. There are few additional folks living on the fringes of the village. The numbers "100 males : 87 females : 80 children" is about right, but some of those "men" and "women" are teenagers. For our purposes, let us say that "children" are 13 and under, and "adults" are 14 and over...
-Assuming minimal magical influence, if there are 55 structures and 267 people, then between 30 and 45 of those structures, and between 150-210 of the people would be oriented primarily toward food/clothing material (wool and leather) production (they can hunt, trap, etc on the side). That leaves between 57 and 117 people (including children) and 10-25 structures for specialized houses of worship (some will just be someone's home), the inevitable inn, blacksmith, and mill, plus all the other trades, arts, crafts, professions, and businesses (who can raise a few livestock and/or keep a small garden on the side). That's actually quite a lot of "miscellaneous" people.
One thing to watch is to not overdo the horses and oxen, who need quite a bit of food and fodder to maintain (no, grazing doesn't cut it for work animals--the Indians tried it. Theere's a reason they lost ). Whatever grain gets raised often winds up feeding the critters. Not sustainable, unless you're going to cart it in from the outside. Of course, carting stuff requires livestock, who in turn require feed and fodder, which in turn...
not overdo the horses and oxen, who need quite a bit of food and fodder to maintain . . . grazing doesn't cut it for work animals
Some 80% of the U.S. corn crop goes to feeding live stock, not people.
So it's back to "just how much cleared land does the village have?" It is all relative. If "we" are growing enough grain for oxen and horses and brewing, then I must ask -- again -- what damn forest?
For this reason, I agree that the number of "livestock" needs to be limited in the village. Plow animals should dominate with no "Livery Stable" with horses for rent. Twenty, or so, plow animals are going to eat up enough grain.
This will enhance interaction with the individual villagers. Any PCs arriving on horseback, of with pack animals, will need to negotiate with the individual farmers in ore to acquire hay and/or grain for their animals. _________________ Mystic's web page: http://melkot.com/mysticscholar/index.html
Mystic's blog page: http://mysticscholar.blogspot.com/
...So it's back to "just how much cleared land does the village have?" It is all relative. If "we" are growing enough grain for oxen and horses and brewing, then I must ask -- again -- what damn forest?
-Well, the Gamboge is pretty big...
If a horse eats 8 pounds of feed (oats?) and 8 pounds of fodder (hay? buts lets go for grazing grass) per day, that's 2,950 pounds of each per year. Assume one horse per house, and 55 houses, that's 162,250 pounds of grass per year.
Assuming 200 pounds of grass per acre, thats 128,000 pounds of grass per square mile. That's a little over one and one-quarter square miles needed for grazing land.
Now, excellent medieval farming yielded 600 pounds of grain per acre per average growing season (we'll assume that the Gamboge has excellent soil and an average growing season). 100 of those pounds were required for next year's seed (i.e. a 6:1 yield), leaving 500 pounds per acre. That comes out to a little over 320 acres, or a little over half a square mile, to raise horsefeed.
Total for 55 horses: A little less than two square miles. Of course the Unnamed Village is a few miles within the woodline. That doesn't include area to graze other livestock, or crops for people or other livestock.
Of course, the yield might not be as good as I've made it. OTOH, magic could augment the productivity.
Or, you could have fewer horse:
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...For this reason, I agree that the number of "livestock" needs to be limited in the village. Plow animals should dominate with no "Livery Stable" with horses for rent. Twenty, or so, plow animals are going to eat up enough grain...
-Agreed.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
...This will enhance interaction with the individual villagers. Any PCs arriving on horseback, of with pack animals, will need to negotiate with the individual farmers in ore to acquire hay and/or grain for their animals.
-Depending on who has a surplus, I hope the PCs either know some Flan, or can handle broken Common. Of course, when you deal with someone who isn't to good at the language, MISUNDERSTANDINGS WILL HAPPEN. Heh heh heh...
I have begun chewing on all of the replies here and elsewhere. A rough map is taking shape as well. If anybody wants to sketch out some generic locations and send them to me, I'll fit them in. The cud must be chewed well and then pass through five stomachs before it is ready though, so you do have some time. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The cud must be chewed well and then pass through five stomachs before it is ready though, so you do have some time.
So very true!
Cebrion wrote:
If anybody wants to sketch out some generic locations and send them to me, I'll fit them in.
Hmm, I think a "general" outline map of the village would necessary to establish "placement" of particular domiciles. Do you already have something along those lines?
Off hand, I think the "common" (water) well should be located in the center and a rounded, packed earth area should exist around the well, perhaps giving a "circular" look to the "downtown" area. Both the Inn and the Blacksmith would be located here, as would a bakery and leather-working shop -- finished products, not tanning.
As you've pointed out, the smell of such operations would require the Tanning plant to be located on the edge of the village. I also see the Miller located "on the second block down" from the well, as it were, though not necessarily "on the edge" of the village.
Perhaps two of the "better" homes might be located in the center "courtyard" as well -- prominent families that have been "leaders" of the community since the beginning. The village "grew up" around their dwellings. One might serve as "Mayor," or "Reeve." Another might be the relatively "wealthy" Blacksmith or Baker.
Have we decided upon a permanent "Guard" type element? Perhaps a small barracks -- sleeping perhaps six men -- could be located on the circle as well. These "six" would be those men "on duty" at any given time; on the watch for evil humanoids, or visiting "trouble makers."
Hmm, I think a "general" outline map of the village would necessary to establish "placement" of particular domiciles. Do you already have something along those lines?
Some locations have been placed, but what I mean are just cut-outs of locations. For example, draw the outline of a farm and its farmland, and send it to me. I need around 40 such locations.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Off hand, I think the "common" (water) well should be located in the center and a rounded, packed earth area should exist around the well, perhaps giving a "circular" look to the "downtown" area. Both the Inn and the Blacksmith would be located here, as would a bakery and leather-working shop -- finished products, not tanning.
As you've pointed out, the smell of such operations would require the Tanning plant to be located on the edge of the village. I also see the Miller located "on the second block down" from the well, as it were, though not necessarily "on the edge" of the village.
The well is dead center in the village common, which is clear area in the center of the village proper.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Perhaps two of the "better" homes might be located in the center "courtyard" as well -- prominent families that have been "leaders" of the community since the beginning. The village "grew up" around their dwellings. One might serve as "Mayor," or "Reeve." Another might be the relatively "wealthy" Blacksmith or Baker.
Already taken into account, in almost exactly that way.
Mystic-Scholar wrote:
Have we decided upon a permanent "Guard" type element? Perhaps a small barracks -- sleeping perhaps six men -- could be located on the circle as well. These "six" would be those men "on duty" at any given time; on the watch for evil humanoids, or visiting "trouble makers."Mostly they are the Mayor/Reeve's "muscle," at his call for whatever might be needed . . . perhaps putting out a fire, etc.
There are no barracks, or anything like that. This is a locale militia-type element, so somewhat informal (until riled up that is). Think of the village as a beehive. The guard bees are normally just cruising around...until somebody messes with the hive. Then they get riled up and quickly organize so as to sting the crap of of the offender. The place is laid back, but the people are conscious that they live in an area that has its own dangers, including those of outside influences (modern Palish zealotry being the main concern). As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan. Other areas have some impediments built into the landscape (mainly ditches, wattle fencing, and thorny hedges), which can be further fortified if need be. Being wary of danger is not what rules the villagers' lives though- they are just prepared. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan.
That puts me in mind of something I talked about awhile back, in a couple of other threads:
From the publication, "1066 The Year of the Conquest," pages 12-19: "A village was surrounded by a fence, and its land by another outer fence. Beyond that were miles and miles of primeval forest and heath, empty and wild . . . "
This is describing the village of Horstede, which existed at that time and was only a few miles from where William the Conqueror's forces landed.
Ceb, are you telling me that I'm not the only one here who's read this book?
I would like to add, however, that after approximately one hundred years, I think the village's "inner" defenses would be a little more substantial than a partially "wattle" built fence. Log palisades are not that hard or complicated to build, just time consuming. But one hundred years is a considerable length of time.
The "bottoms" of the longs -- perhaps fifteen feet long -- are placed into ditches, which are then filled in. The "tops" of these logs are then lashed together. A ditch dug five feet deep would provide for a fairly "solid" wall, leaving ten feet protruding above ground -- a fence ten feet high. The logs would have been supplied by clearing farm land.
As such, the village center is fortified with gates, a ditch, and a low palisade wall. People gather here if things really hit the fan.
From the publication, "1066 The Year of the Conquest," pages 12-19: "A village was surrounded by a fence, and its land by another outer fence. Beyond that were miles and miles of primeval forest and heath, empty and wild . . . Ceb, are you telling me that I'm not the only one here who's read this book?
Another excellent historical fiction based upon 9th century Britain (Saxon-controlled, viking raids) is The Saxon Stories by Bernard Cornwell.
SirXaris
is it as above or is it Chronicals? or Tales?
I found these, and have none..
Chronical Series Tales #6
Are they the same?
Its a good read, but remember its historical fiction.
DLG, I must tell you that both you and SirXaris are the only two people I have ever heard describe that book as "historical fiction." Some even use the publication for teaching purposes:
Another excellent historical fiction based upon 9th century Britain (Saxon-controlled, viking raids) is The Saxon Stories by Bernard Cornwell.
SirXaris
is it as above or is it Chronicals? or Tales?
I found these, and have none..
Chronical Series Tales #6
Are they the same?
Yep, those are the series, beginning with The Last Kingdom.
Never read that book, but I mentioned this set-up a bit at the beginning of things. I just wasn't sure how far I would take it. Considering the potential threats in the area, the tech level, and the available resources, the defenses I described seemed to me the most common sense thing to put in place without changing the village into something more akin to a wilderness fort. Apparently I have a good feel for this sort of thing. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Its a good read, but remember its historical fiction.
DLG, I must tell you that both you and SirXaris are the only two people I have ever heard describe that book as "historical fiction." Some even use the publication for teaching purposes:
.
Humm pretty sure we are.... your links seem to confirm, Unless David Howarth wrote more than one rendition?? As fare as "Historical Fiction" I'm pretty sure I am catagorizing correctly. Is it not a Story of Fiction utilizing actual historical elements as support, backdrop and plot drivers?
As to it being referenced as a teaching tool, (I defer to Lanthorn the resident teacher among us)
I would conjecture this.
1> It doesnt't detract from the interaction of the history, it is only presenting a plausable (and in other cases below less so) sub-plot that would explain, detail, or extrapilate from the historical medium. So it is NOT a slight to refer to it as such. Meaning Fiction = Wrong....
There are many "stories" that if well researched are premised in fact, yet are stories none the less.
James Cameron's Titanic> Did the boat sink? Yep, Was Jack and Rose aboard? eh well not so much
Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code> Did various religious factions struggle for power as detailed? Kinda. Did the Templars have tremendous power and influence and did the French Monarchy conspire against them? Yes. Did a real Robert Langdon really do all those things, no. Did Dan Brown get the world to thinkin Yep But still doesn't make it historical fact.
William Monahan's Kingdom of Heaven > Did the christians and the muslims fight over Jerulsalem, Yep, Could the methods and tactics been as described, sure (espcially the christian armies trotting through the desert) Did King Balwin Exist and was he a leper, yea.
Just to name a few.
Heck, even Shakespeare's King Lear & Romeo and Juliet meet the criteria. And we certainly teach those as representative of the period, not as a chronology of it. I know I have sat through many an english literature class with those present. hehe
David Howarth's book 1066: The Year of the Conquest would prove to be a useful and important aid for teaching a course dealing with the history of medieval Britain. The book is outstanding in several areas. First, the book is written well. The development of the story is flawless. The reader always knows where he/she stands in the framework of the history.
I do give thanks for the tip, and have the series ordered.
"Howarth carefully attempts to weed out the facts from the propaganda and constant religious overtones which dominate the era's literature." (Emphasis mine)
I prefer the word "propaganda" for the writings of that time too . . . because it was. "Religious" writings of the time were also "propaganda." Little of it is "pure, unadulterated truth." They wrote with their "present" audience in mind, not "future" audiences, or history.
In my mind, the phrase "historical fiction" equates with the phrase "historical novel;" a thing this publication is not. I wish to distinguish between the two for any readers of these posts that might be confused between the two.
As all the links confirm, Howarth is dead on target in describing life in Horstede -- or any other medieval English town of the period. Your statement that the book is "historical fiction" implies that he is incorrect in his description, or that he has "taken liberties" with the facts. Howarth didn't do either of those things. That's exactly how life was back then and that's why I used it as an example of what I think "our" village should be.
So, in this instance, you and I will disagree on the use of the term "historical fiction."
Of course, as I've said numerous times before, "we" play the game differently. Most of you play the game with a much more "modern day" feel to it. I like my game circa 900 A.D. to 1200 A.D.
So, in this instance, you and I will disagree on the use of the term "historical fiction." ..
Well I think that is the root element here. You, if I understand your position, you define fiction as a fabrication or untruth, where I, in this case, define it as a narrative based on fact, yet not substantiated. A "theory" for you Science Majors out there.
A true "history book" would be A History of the Middle Ages by J Dahmus and since it is not a chronical of events, defer it to historical "narrative".
LONG and the Short of it, Yes it is a GOOD platform to base our village on, and it and t he other listed books are good reads for any interested in the details of that period.
...There are no barracks, or anything like that. This is a locale militia-type element, so somewhat informal (until riled up that is)...
-Every home might have a little bell, and others might be scattered around the wells being obvious places, and maybe that tree. The villagers wouldn't have a lot of rules, but ringing one of those bells without a real danger would be one of them.
They would have some sort of leadership, even if it's elected and relatively informal. Before we figure out who, maybe we just create the villagers, and then pick a captain, etc.? The captain wouldn't neccessarily be the highest level guy. INT, WIS, CHA, proficiencies/skills, maybe alignment would count. Maybe some "politics", too.
I already figured out the structure, and who is in charge. Bells and horns are alarm mechanisms used. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The problem is that life is extremely demanding for a villager and he is so weak (in all imaginable ways) that taking cross-class skills such as survival is hardly an option. It doesn't matter if he has +3 skill modifier or +0 in survival, he cannot make the cut to be a hunter or a trapper.
This is why I gave up commoners completely for Dry Steppes. The average Baklun there is an Expert 1/Warrior 1 - at minimum.
I always like to go precisely by the book. This is why I insist that we need plenty of Experts as trappers because druids and rangers are so few (according to DMG) and commoners are almost useless in that role (due to the class and its class skills).
I have been reviewing the threads and preparing the location list, when this post jumped out at me a bit. Commoners...unable to be effective hunters? Was this an oversight, or is it there, but just "hidden" where most people don't think to look? Well, it turns out it is the latter:
Quote:
PROFESSION (Wis; Trained Only)
You are trained in a livelihood or a professional role, such as apothecary, boater, bookkeeper, brewer, cook, driver, farmer, fisher, guide, herbalist, herder, hunter, innkeeper, lumberjack, miller, miner, porter, rancher, sailor, scribe, siege engineer, stablehand, tanner, teamster, woodcutter, or the like. Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. For instance, you could have the skill Profession (cook). Your ranks in that skill don’t affect any checks you happen to make for milling or mining. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents skill in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge. To draw a modern analogy, if an occupation is a service industry, it’s probably a Profession skill. If it’s in the manufacturing sector, it’s probably a Craft skill.
Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems. For example, a sailor knows how to tie several basic knots, how to tend and repair sails, and how to stand a deck watch at sea. The DM sets DCs for specialized tasks.
Action: Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.
Try Again: An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. (Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time.) An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.
Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
And so no Expert hunters are needed at all, and actually very few "Expert" anythings are needed. The important thing here is not just the presence of the profession "hunter", but all of the professions, and what the Profession skill really is meant to represent. A Blacksmith will have Profession(blacksmith), and may also have Craft (blacksmithing), but the latter skill is not even a requirement for him to be able to do his job and make a living at it. Now, if he does have Craft (blacksmithing) it makes him a bit more accomplished. He can make all of the things that any normal Blacksmith can, but he also might be able to make more specialized things, like master-crafted items (i.e. things suitable for enchantment) which your run-of-the-mill Profession(blacksmith) won't be able to make. "I need some finely wrought iron bands for this Bilarro thing I am enchanting.", said the wizard.
So, don't worry about commoners being able to do anything, because it is actually is covered in the rules (all editions). Hunters can hunt, trappers can trap, etc. Just don't ask Joe Schmoe Hunter to go hunting owlbears with you or anything- you will want to go with a Ranger on that hunt. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri May 31, 2013 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yes, "hunter" in not in the SRD list, but not every possible profession is listed there either. If something can be done as a profession then it is covered by this skill in the most basic, functional sense. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...e.g., there would be an average of 3.25 fighters of all levels (1.35% of the adult population), and there would be 10.156 experts of all levels (3.936% of the adult population), 3.936 of whom would be Exp2 or higher. Overall, the 51.31 (or 21.38%) of the adults would be something other than a Com1.
These figures are for an "average" place in an "average" society (probably heavy on the Forgotten Realms and Eberron, neither of which I'm really familiar with). I've always assumed that the Flaneass would be a lot heavier on fighters, scouts, and experts, but lighter on warriors (since many could be trained very easily to fighter standard), while barbarians, paladins, and monks would normally only be found certain regions. But, although I think our villagers would get in some practice, and would do some sort of training (once quarter at fest time), I don't think the formal training would be that rigorous.
Cebrion wrote:
...So, after having rolled some dice (yes, I really did), the population will be made up of 267 hardy souls (about 45 families, plus other individuals)...
...since our population is higher, would could just add 11% ( x 1.11) to the numbers. In reality, as a community gets larger, the proportion of non-Com1's decreases (only 15.47% in a village of 650), but the odds of a higher than 4th level type increases a little. In most cases, it doesn't make a big difference. But it's a consideration. Since the Gamboge seems a little more dangerous than the average place, I'd round up for levels, averaging hamlets and villages.
So, I figure that our hamlet-sized "village" would have the following:
Ftr: Average, round down (Not a whole lot of guys training with heavy armor and tower shields, here, but the incentive to train is here. Maybe some could be swashbucklers or hexblades? Of course, swashbuckler is usually more of an urban thing); 3 fighters, inc. maybe 1 hexblade? Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.
Rgr: Well above average (The woodland thing is obvious, and IIRC, 75% of men from the Gnarley have at least one level of ranger. I wouldn't go that high here, but even 10% of the population isn't unprecedented. Instead of rangers, they might be scouts); at least 3 rangers or scouts. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for rangers and hamlets).
Bbn: Well below average, if any (A D&D 3X barbarian is more like an AD&D1 or AD&D2 beserker. The closest places to find them would be the Cold Suel Barbarians, Stonefist, or someone raised in an Orc or Ogre tribe. Not that they couldn't be in the village, but you will have some explaining to do...); 0 barbarians. If there is one, 3rd level max.
Pal: Well below average, if any. (Same issue as fighters, plus Lawful Good); 0 paladins. If there is one, 2nd level, max.
Rog: Average, round up (A D&D 3X rogue can be a lot of things other than a thief. The AD&D2 kit for scouts would be ideal. Using the AD&D2 Complete Thief's HB, table 11, it seems unlikely that you'd have more than one rogue in the community who is a full time criminal, if that); 4 rogues or scouts, of whom 1 (a C and/or E-aligned type) might be a rogue of the criminal sort, probably preying on passers-by rather than locals. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level.
Brd: Average, round up (It looks like this place is going to have some sort of Old Faith foundation, and bards fit in to that); 3 bards. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, reasonably as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.
Wiz: Average, round down (I don't see this place as producing or attracting a lot of wizards, but one hedge wizard wouldn't be out of place, perhaps with an apprentice?); 1 wizard. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.
Sor: Average, round down; 1 sorcerer, or maybe a hexblade. Probably 1st or 2nd level, with an absolute maximum of 3rd level.
Clr: Average, round down; 2 clerics. Probably 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level.
Drd: Above average (Again, the Old Faith seems to be strong here); 4 druids. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for hamlets and druids).
Mnk: Well below average, if any. (I mean, come on); 0 monks. If there is one, 3rd level max.
War: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a War1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter type. A lot of under-trained talent); 14 warriors, inc. at least 2 of whom is a War2 or higher. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 4th level, with an absolute maximum of 7th level (possibly combined with another class). Any War2s or higher are probably at least 21 years old.
Ari: Below average (In AD&D terms, an Ari1 is a 0 level man-at-arms/fighter/cavalier type. Maybe the son of the wealthiest folks in town?); 1 aristocrat, probably an Ari1.
Exp: Average, round up (They're able to make a decent living in the middle of nowhere. They must be doing something right); 12 experts, of whom at least 5 are Exp2 or higher, (possibly combined with another class). Any Exp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.
Adp: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a 0 level cleric or druid); 3 adepts, or whom at least 1 is an Adp2 or higher. I'd make 2 representatives of non-druid dominant faiths, and one Old Faith. These would also be obvious candidates for midwives and healers. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level. Any Adp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old.
Com: Anyone left over is a commoner, with maybe 6 or 7 of them 2nd level or higher (possibly combined with another class). Any Com2s or higher are probably at least 30 years old.
Or maybe Cebrion wants to roll the dice randomly, and then modify...
Since a full stat description isn't even necessary (a "bonus"), this doesn't really limit anyone (if you really want to write up a guy who would probably be a 12th level monk, well, OK...). But maybe we can avoid too many paladins and monks, or super high levels?
The population may be increased slightly to account for the fact that this village is free/independent, meaning it (unofficially) lays claim to all lands "in the vicinity", meaning nominal inclusion of those living anywhere in this area. Yep. I somehow hadn't thought of this until now.
I would characterize this village as "above average", but I need be a bit more clear on what I mean by that. As to trades people, the village will be fairly average. As to individuals who actually have PC classes, they will be the "above average" component. Basically, these villagers would have the upper hand in a smack down with an equal number of "average" villagers. They are just a slight bit tougher. Most villages will have militia who are Warriors, with just a few fighters among them (former skilled soldiers/adventurers most likely), and led by a few fighters. This village still has Warrior class militia, but there is a higher percentage of villagers than average who are instead fighters or rangers. So, as as to fighting at least, the villagers are more skilled in a general sense, but not by much. There certainly won't be more barbarians, rogues, mages, or clerics though. Those classes would fall into the "average", and paladins would be below average, as the community is not geared towards a LG alignment at all (you can probably count all of the LG villagers on one hand). Monks would be out greatly of place too.
Also, most armies are made up of Warriors (i.e. a spearman only really needs to know how to use a spear well, a bowman only really needs to know how to use a bow well, etc.). Highly trained forces within armies (like most cavalry and elite versions of regular units that carry an array of weaponry, and so need to know how to fight well with more than one weapon) are the Fighters. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Okay, I think I have "THE LIST". If something really, really, really stands out as not being there, and you think it should be in there, let me know. Here we go:
Main Village Locations
1. Inn
2. Blacksmith
3. Tanner/furrier (trapper)
4. Carpenter/cooper/wainwright (i.e. if it is wooden and requires skill to make it, this guy makes it)
5. Cobbler/leather worker
6. Weaver/dyer/(maybe tailor in with this bunch too)
7. Bowyer/fletcher
8. Tavern/brewery
9. Mason/stoneworker
10. Merchant/trader
11. Weaponsmith(armorer)
12. Potter
13. Miller
14. Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman
15. Butcher
16. Thatcher (farmer)
17. Chapel of Beory
18. Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))
19. Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri
Shrines
1. Obad Hai (out in the woods)
2. Phyton (out in the woods)
3. Berei (inner village)
4. Seldarine (inner village)
5. Gnomish Gods (inner village)
6. Halfling Gods (new, inner village)
There are of course tons of farmers, and more people than not supplement their raised food by hunting/trapping/fishing to some degree. this is just meant to cover the signature locations though, not "Bob the Farmer (28th level arch-priest of Incabulos)" or anything. :D
So, did I miss anything that wouldn't already be lumped in with the farmers and others? _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:48 am; edited 3 times in total
-Since I was the only one to point out Phyton's apparent popularity in the Pale Underground, I'll take this.
I see him (male) as an Adept (or 0 level cleric). I'm open to suggestions and rationales as to whether he's a relative newcomer come to "spread the Word," or someone from the village who felt "called".
Cebrion wrote:
...There are of course tons of farmers, and more people than not supplement their raised food by hunting/trapping/fishing to some degree...
-Dibs on the grizzled farmer/swineherd with the prize, truffle-hunting pig!
Cebrion wrote:
...did I miss anything that wouldn't already be lumped in with the farmers and others?
-If anything, I'd say you've erred on making the village tradesman heavy...
Cebrion wrote:
...Chapel of Beory and the Four Seasons (yeah, they are a Motown group , and I may nab this one unless somebody really wants to do it badly.)...
1) I don't think Franky Valli counts as Motown. "Walk like an Elf! Talk like an Elf!"
2) Does "Four Seasons" imply the Oeridian Aggie gods? If they use the same chapel, does that mean that they have a syncreatic Flann-Oerid religion, or that they simply share the chapel? I don't want the project; I'm, just trying to get an feel for the belief system.
Cebrion wrote:
...this is just meant to cover the signature locations though, not "Bob the Farmer (28th level arch-priest of Incabulos)" or anything...
...as I pointed out, Bob would be, at most, a 5th level priest of Incabulos. Naturally, he oversees, the secret entrance leading to the Cannibalistic Halflings from the Underdark...
Since I don't know what order we're choosing in, I'll hold my claims until Cebrion provides that information.
However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals. Sugar is, likely, unavailable in that part of the Flanaess, so honey would be a very valuable commodity. I'll just consider him one of the local farmers/ranchers who specializes in raising bees.
Since I don't know what order we're choosing in, I'll hold my claims until Cebrion provides that information...
-Fair point, but the Phyton thing and the truffle-hunting pig were my ideas...
SirXaris wrote:
..However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals. Sugar is, likely, unavailable in that part of the Flanaess, so honey would be a very valuable commodity. I'll just consider him one of the local farmers/ranchers who specializes in raising bees...
-I think:
1) it's a good idea;
2) it doesn't need "permission", since it falls under the agriculture. Now, a sugar farmer would be hard to explain...
1) I don't think Franky Valli counts as Motown. "Walk like an Elf! Talk like an Elf!"
2) Does "Four Seasons" imply the Oeridian Aggie gods? If they use the same chapel, does that mean that they have a syncreatic Flann-Oerid religion, or that they simply share the chapel? I don't want the project; I'm, just trying to get an feel for the belief system.
Just ignore that. I am totally brainfarting on everything, singing groups and all. Berry Gordy would not be amused. Time to edit a few things...
Also, this isn't the draft, just the preliminary list of choices for the draft. There will be a draft thread which lists the order of choosing. This is just the very final thing to do in preparation for the draft.
Beekeeper is off the list, as it isn't a full-time profession, but one that a few farmers in the community will do on the side. In the main they are farmers though, and beekeeping isn't the only thing that farmers can do on the side.
There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...Beekeeper is off the list, as it isn't a full-time profession, but one that a few farmers in the community will do on the side. In the main they are farmers though, and beekeeping isn't the only thing that farmers can do on the side...
-In the same way that "swineherd" isn't on the list. It's just the specific form of agriculture.
SirXaris wrote:
...However, since he asked about stuff he left off the list, I'll claim the apiarist (beekeeper), who lives outside the village proper and sells, or barters, his harvest to the locals...
-I'm not an expert, but my understanding is that flowers have more pollen for the bees than grains and veggies do; beekeepers often grow flowers to allow for bee-flower symbiotic relationship thing. In a village of 266 adults who spend most of their time on serious business, there might be a market for the beekeeper (or someone else) to sell flowers, particularly during the week-long festivals. And flowers would make great offerings at several of the shrines and chapels.
Cebrion wrote:
...There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change.
-I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.
Taking the population:
Cebrion wrote:
...
Flan: 32% (85)
Flan/Oerid: 29% (78)
Oeridian: 14% (37)
Other Human/Human Mix: 6% (16)
Elves: 3% (8)
Half-elves: 8% (21)
Gnomes: 5% (13)
Halflings: 2% (5)
Dwarves: 1% (3)
That is for the village proper...
Taking the likely religious types:
jamesdglick wrote:
...
Clr: Average, round down; 2 clerics. Probably 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level...
Drd: Above average (Again, the Old Faith seems to be strong here); 4 druids. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 10th level (see the modification for hamlets and druids)...
Adp: Average, round up (In AD&D terms, a 0 level cleric or druid); 3 adepts, or whom at least 1 is an Adp2 or higher. I'd make 2 representatives of non-druid dominant faiths, and one Old Faith. These would also be obvious candidates for midwives and healers. Most would be 1st or 2nd level, typically as high as 3rd level, with an absolute maximum of 5th level. Any Adp2s or higher are probably at least 25 years old...
...with the associated places of worship:
Cebrion wrote:
...Chapel of Beory...
...Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))...
...Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri...
...Obad Hai (out in the woods)...
...Phyton (out in the woods)...
...Berei (inner village)...
...Seldarine (inner village)...
...Gnomish Gods (inner village)...
...Halfling Gods (new, inner village)...
...I assume that the Gnomish and Halfling shrines would probably be cared for by laymen (laygnomes?), or perhaps an Adept. The Seldarine would probably have an Adept, or maybe a Cleric. The other faiths would probably have at least an Adept associated with them, while Beory would have at least one Druid, and Velnius and the Aggies at least one Druid or Cleric. Pelor's chapel of Pelor might have two full time clerics (3rd and 1st level?).
Of course, there could be more Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or possibly fewer).
Cebrion wrote:
... Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman...
-An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... ).
...There are a few things on this list that I didn't initially consider very strongly, but the village community, it is a growin' and a changin', and its ever increasing footprint has it changing from a backwoods place into something a bit more than that. Some of the professionals that are now present are some of the agents of that change.
-I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.
As they stand for similar enough principles, they would get along well enough.
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
...Chapel of Beory...
...Chapel of Pelor (the first almost complete stone building in the village- slate roof and all! One might say it embodies...STRENGTH. Hmmm. How fitting. ;))...
...Chapel of Velnius/Valaeri...
...Obad Hai (out in the woods)...
...Phyton (out in the woods)...
...Berei (inner village)...
...Seldarine (inner village)...
...Gnomish Gods (inner village)...
...Halfling Gods (new, inner village)...
...I assume that the Gnomish and Halfling shrines would probably be cared for by laymen (laygnomes?), or perhaps an Adept. The Seldarine would probably have an Adept, or maybe a Cleric. The other faiths would probably have at least an Adept associated with them, while Beory would have at least one Druid, and Velnius and the Aggies at least one Druid or Cleric. Pelor's chapel of Pelor might have two full time clerics (3rd and 1st level?).
Of course, there could be more Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or possibly fewer).
Probably laypeople, excepting Obad Hai (there is a druid) and Phyton(a priest). The demi-human shrines were built by the few community members of those races, and while one of them could be a priest, it is not required. Those shrines have been given a place of prominence in the village center as a nod to the good relationship the community has with the demi-humans in their midst as well as with those of the Gamboge. There would be a priest for the chapel of Pelor, a priest for the chapel Beory, and a priest for the chapel of Velnius/the Valaeri, those being major centers of worship in the village. When I say "priest", interpret that to be "priest/priestess". The chapels may very well have a few aspirants as well, as would the shrine of Obad Hai whose caretakers spend most of them time out and about in the Gamboge. Considering where this village is, it would mark out the front battle lines for a druid protecting the forest from interlopers and those seeking to extend their influence into it(i.e. Pholtans), so this druid might be a bit higher level than usual, which would also explain why he has aspirants assigned to him. He/she would also be very wary of those who are new to the village, and of strangers just passing through, and would endeavor to keep tabs on them until satisfied that they were not "up to something". Not that I am throwing out ideas or anything... :D
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
... Herbalist-sage and/or midwife-wise woman...
-An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... ).
The midwife/herbalist could very well be responsible for and tend the shrine of Berei, which would be very fitting, but there would be no religious rivalry. As stated earlier, the community is partly here due to Pholtan intolerance, so intolerance between faiths is not looked on favorably. Those being outright guilty of such a thing would be shunned by the whole community at the least, or driven out if things were more serious than a mere unfriendliness. Not everyone will get along, but one of the driving ideals behind the community is that its members must work together. Those who don't, or who actively seek to screw with others, will not be looked on favorably. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...Probably laypeople, excepting Obad Hai (there is a druid) and Phyton(a priest). The demi-human shrines were built by the few community members of those races, and while one of them could be a priest, it is not required. Those shrines have been given a place of prominence in the village center as a nod to the good relationship the community has with the demi-humans in their midst as well as with those of the Gamboge. There would be a priest for the chapel of Pelor, a priest for the chapel Beory, and a priest for the chapel of Velnius/the Valaeri, those being major centers of worship in the village. When I say "priest", interpret that to be "priest/priestess". The chapels may very well have a few aspirants as well, as would the shrine of Obad Hai whose caretakers spend most of them time out and about in the Gamboge...
-Yeah. I doubt that there would be any clergy for the halflings or gnomes, unless of them was such as a statistical oddity. Statistically, there should be enough Clerics, Druids, or Adepts (or 0 level clerics for pre-D&D 3X) for all the others to have at least one rep, and at least two for Pelor.
Cebrion wrote:
jamesdglick wrote:
-I assume that Obad-Hai's shrine is out in the woods because that's how he rolls, but Phyton's shrine might be new. I don't think the caretakers would get along.
As they stand for similar enough principles, they would get along well enough...
Considering where this village is, it would mark out the front battle lines for a druid protecting the forest from interlopers and those seeking to extend their influence into it...
He/she would also be very wary of those who are new to the village, and of strangers just passing through, and would endeavor to keep tabs on them until satisfied that they were not "up to something"...
-Actually, in the LGG credos, there's a difference between Obad-Hai and Phyton. While Obad-Hai largely defends the wilderness as is, Phyton love the wilderness not just for what it is, but for what people can do with it (i.e., "development", which is why I think Phyton makes a good "pioneer" god). Now, that doesn't mean that Obad Hai's worshippers are against the use of nature for any reason, any time (or they'd be against houses), but there is a difference. The Obad-Haiers (?) could also see the Pytonites (?) as "interlopers", particularly if their Cleric/Adept is an outsider (I'm assuming that at least one of Obad Hai's Druids or Adepts is a local).
I'm not suggesting open warfare, even overt hostility (although that could be the case). More like rudeness, particularly on the part of Obad-Hai's druid versus the Phytonites.
jamesdglick wrote:
-An Adept might have any sort of day job, but herbalist/healer/midwife would be the most obvious and apropos. Someone could kill two birds with one stone by making one of the shrine caretakers (or an assistant at a chapel) a healer type as well. For a village of 266 adults, there could be more than one of each. I still like the idea of rival midwives (Beory/Berei vs. the Valeri? or Hedda Hopper vs. Louella Parsons... ).
The midwife/herbalist could very well be responsible for and tend the shrine of Berei, which would be very fitting, but there would be no religious rivalry. As stated earlier, the community is partly here due to Pholtan intolerance, so intolerance between faiths is not looked on favorably....[/quote]
-Puritans, Baptists, and Quakers all showed up in the Massachusetts Bay Colony due to religious intolerance.
They didn't necessarily get along...
Quakers, Mennonites, Lutherans, and Presbyterians all showed up in Philadelphia due to religious intolerance.
They didn't necessarily get along...
They would pull together in the face of an active common threat. But if there wasn't a common threat, there were times they'd be fighting in the streets (say, election time Our Savage Neighbors makes for interesting reading wrt to Pennsylvania). Cuthbertines and Trithereons had nothing to teach them.
I'm not advocating anything that extreme. Not that it wouldn't be interesting, but I just don't see how 266 adults would be able to stay together like that; after all, they could move elsewhere (although maybe they'd think "THEY can move elsewhere" ). I'm thinking of a milder version of the attitudes between Cuthbertines and Old Faith adherents in Hommlet. Of course, unlike Hommlet, where the Cuthbertine "interlopers" have been prodded by a government (Verbobonc/Veluna), everyone showed up on their own initiative.
As for rival midwives, I'm thinking (generally) friendly rivals (my HH/LP analogy).
Of course, all that could change in the future (for the better, or worse).
Any ideas for where the hamlet/village goes after CY 577? And what about that name?
-Actually, in the LGG credos, there's a difference between Obad-Hai and Phyton. While Obad-Hai largely defends the wilderness as is, Phyton love the wilderness not just for what it is, but for what people can do with it (i.e., "development", which is why I think Phyton makes a good "pioneer" god). Now, that doesn't mean that Obad Hai's worshippers are against the use of nature for any reason, any time (or they'd be against houses), but there is a difference. The Obad-Haiers (?) could also see the Pytonites (?) as "interlopers", particularly if their Cleric/Adept is an outsider (I'm assuming that at least one of Obad Hai's Druids or Adepts is a local).
I'm not suggesting open warfare, even overt hostility (although that could be the case). More like rudeness, particularly on the part of Obad-Hai's druid versus the Phytonites.
I know what the LGG says. The gist is, "A few yeas ago, Phyton sent out a memo to his followers telling them that everything that they had been doing for millenia was a load of crap, and that they now have a new mission statement to follow." Perhaps it is just me, but I think that...
Obad Hai: "Look here at this ancient heartwood tree. It has stood on this spot for thousands of years in the wild, pure and untouched. Isn't it beautiful?"
Phyton: "Yeah, it is really nice! We could cut that sucker down and build a lovely wooden skyscraper right where it was using its own wood!"
...rather sucks, in my oh so humble opinion. Phyton is not the god of natural sources, but of nature and its beauty. But somebody just had to go and screw with things and bring in a more modern twist, "improving" it. I wouldn't tell anybody who wants to write it up what spin to take on the Shrine of Phyton or his worshipers, but my views on the subject are plain enough I think.
At this point, there is no issue between followers of Obad Hai and Phyton, as worshipers of Phyton have been in the area almost from the village's inception (though followers of Obad Hai have surely been in the area for far longer). They play nice, and make a point to not step on each others' toes. Obad Hai has a larger following to be sure.
jamesdglick wrote:
-Puritans, Baptists, and Quakers all showed up in the Massachusetts Bay Colony due to religious intolerance.
They didn't necessarily get along...
Quakers, Mennonites, Lutherans, and Presbyterians all showed up in Philadelphia due to religious intolerance.
They didn't necessarily get along...
The Gamboge folk's situation has nothing in common with that of those people. Were those people subjects of some power? Yes. Were they living on land owned by various powers? Yes. Were they under the protection of those powers? Yes. Were they paying taxes to those powers? Yes. Did they have a foreign power directly on their border? No. How about the Gamboge folk? Despite various claims, are the Gamboge folk citizens of any power? No. Do they live under the laws of any power? No. Do they pay taxes to any power? No. Do they live under the protection of any power? No. Is there an ocean between them and every foreign power who wants to take their land? No. Are they surrounded by powers who want to take their land? Yes. Getting the picture yet? The situation for the Gambogefolk is nothing like it was for those you mentioned. They rely on nobody but themselves, because nobody else has their best interests in mind, and they know it. Consequently there is a level of cooperation among the Gambogefolk that that is nothing like the slap fights and pissing matches of various Protestant sects in the Americas at the time you mention (at least they didn't kill each other, but they were almost all intolerant of "others"). The various groups within the Gambogefolk have more pressing matters to worry about than decrying that this or that faction are the only true followers of The Word- they leave that to the Pholtans, who they do not hold in high regard at all.
And so they are rather cooperative. Do some people not get along? Sure, that is normal, but they don't let it get out of hand because it is counter to their established culture. They didn't leave one toxic environment to create another on their own terms. They are much more about standing together, such that others can't take their stuff, nor tell them how to worship. Perhaps if they were to reach a point where outside influences were a non-issue might they then look closer to home to find more petty squabbles to become embroiled in, but they don't currently have that "luxury", as they are much more concerned about what outside forces want to take from them or make them do. The village isn't some sort of utopia though- people are just a bit more respectful of one another because they realize that they will be relying on each other when things go bad, which they have in the past (you will have to wait for more on that).
Also, including all of the people who live in the vicinity of the village, the total population may be increasing by 50% or more, as the area that the village oversees doesn't end at the outskirts of its developed land. I am working on developing this a bit more at the moment. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...I know what the LGG says. The gist is, "A few yeas ago, Phyton sent out a memo to his followers telling them that everything that they had been doing for millenia was a load of crap, and that they now have a new mission statement to follow." Perhaps it is just me, but I think that... ...rather sucks, in my oh so humble opinion...
1) Last I checked, we're trying to go with canon, for the benefit of universality. That includes "Things Which Cebrion Thinks 'Rather Suck'".
2) IIRC, Len Lakofka never really explored the topic. I haven't had a look at the original in Dragon (issue # 80-something?). But they may have had druid in the original imagining.
3) The credo in LGG is the best reason to include Phyton (other than the fact that he's listed among the deities worshipped sub rosa in the Pale). These villages (hamleters) are pioneers. A representative who encourages them to make the best of what they've got is a lot more appealing than some cranky paranoid shouting "Hey you kids! got outta my woods, or I'll sick my owl on you!"
The cleric's (or adept's) mission would be sort of like an unofficial county ag' agent, helping folks develop their land in the same way that the representative of Berei might help as a midwife.
jamesdglick wrote:
...The Gamboge folk's situation has nothing in common with that of those people. Were those people subjects of some power? Yes. Were they living on land owned by various powers? Yes. Were they under the protection of those powers? Yes....
-Fair point for Massachusetts at any time, but Pennsylvania circa 1750? Barely, particularly when you go outside the treaty area.
jamesdglick wrote:
... Were they paying taxes to those powers? Yes...
-Actually, Pennsylvania was business, and didn't have taxes until the Revolution. They were also the only colony to not have a draft.
jamesdglick wrote:
... The situation for the Gambogefolk is nothing like it was for those you mentioned. They rely on nobody but themselves, because nobody else has their best interests in mind, and they know it...
-Pretty much the situation in York, Cumberland, or Lancaster counties ca. 1750. If there was a "foreign power", there were the Delawares to the west and an encroaching Pennsylvania and Royal governments to the east.
jamesdglick wrote:
...They didn't leave one toxic environment to create another on their own terms...
-Who does? Pioneers usually go somewhere where they think things go be their way.
jamesdglick wrote:
...Consequently there is a level of cooperation among the Gambogefolk that that is nothing like the slap fights and pissing matches of various Protestant sects in the Americas at the time you mention (at least they didn't kill each other, but they were almost all intolerant of "others")...
-"Romanticized Pioneer" is fine. The point of my diversion in mid-18th C PA is that I was considering something a little grittier...
jamesdglick wrote:
...Do some people not get along? Sure, that is normal, but they don't let it get out of hand because it is counter to their established culture...
...but not that much grittier. Again, nothing like Trithereons vs. Cuthbertines.
Cebrion wrote:
...(you will have to wait for more on that)....
-Any hints? It would help with development. Of course, since my number is "100", that makes me (ahem) last ( ), so I guess I've got time. For now, I'm working on a swineherd and relatives, which could easily cover 3 domiciles. They'll fit in anywhere.
Also, there's a woodland trail that goes to the hamlet. Does it continue? Where to? Wood Elves? How difficult is the trail to Nyrond (there has to be some path, however circuitous, that eventually gets there. Several, actually, if you consider all the branch-offs)?
1) Last I checked, we're trying to go with canon, for the benefit of universality. That includes "Things Which Cebrion Thinks 'Rather Suck'".
I know we are, and I stated as much. However, the baseline is the 83' WoGH boxed set era of material, at which time Phyton had apparently not had his "Not only can we smoke this stuff- we can build stuff out of it too, man! We gotta clear more land, dude!" epiphany. So, people are free to use whatever they wish from canon, or not. :D
jamesdglick wrote:
2) IIRC, Len Lakofka never really explored the topic. I haven't had a look at the original in Dragon (issue # 80-something?). But they may have had druid in the original imagining.
Phyton is served by many druids (not exactly proponents of bringing back-hoes and going all Amazon Rainforest on the Gamboge) and chaotic good priests. He is also served by groves of treants, not cords of treants, which are not exactly volunteering to be made into log cabins, china hutches, etc., nor see all of their less motile buddies done that way ("My yewish friend Leonard over there is just dieing to let out his inner spindle-backed chair." ). Phyton is a god of beauty and nature, not beauty and using nature (at least not any more than any other nature god that is, as everything in nature is pretty much going to be used by something else in nature), and will surely more likely be served by various animals rather than be served up various animals.
But that is all besides the point...
jamesdglick wrote:
3) The credo in LGG is the best reason to include Phyton (other than the fact that he's listed among the deities worshipped sub rosa in the Pale). These villages (hamleters) are pioneers. A representative who encourages them to make the best of what they've got is a lot more appealing than some cranky paranoid shouting "Hey you kids! got outta my woods, or I'll sick my owl on you!" [/b]
The cleric's (or adept's) mission would be sort of like an unofficial county ag' agent, helping folks develop their land in the same way that the representative of Berei might help as a midwife.
Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue. Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done. The only thing that the priests will do ensure there is nor abuse, if needed. The founders did this, and those that came after have done this, which is why Obad Hai and Phyton have been ever present, and yet have not had to "wicker man' a bunch of blasphemers every decade or so. Due to the type of people who founded (and continue to live in) the community, there has pretty much always been an understanding regarding the balance of nature, and by that I do not mean the whole True Neutral thing, but not depleting the flora and fauna of the area, such that its resources will not be renewed. The community is not the real source of any "grittiness" or trouble. It could be, but our purpose is not to write an adventure here, just give an overview of an area where one could happen (I think you blur these cross-purposes a bit too much in your mind). It is perfectly fine to write in a dangling plot string here and there (i.e. "Ned's prize truffler recently went missing in the woods, and he is offering a reward to anyone who can find her.", etc.), but not more than that.
jamesdglick wrote:
-"Romanticized Pioneer" is fine. The point of my diversion in mid-18th C PA is that I was considering something a little grittier...
That's the thing- even "romanticized pioneers" is beyond off the mark. The "pioneers" are *long dead*, and developing land 500 yards from a village palisade is not exactly pioneering. At this time, there is just a slowly expanding community- stick with that emphasis.
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
The village isn't some sort of utopia though- people are just a bit more respectful of one another because they realize that they will be relying on each other when things go bad, which they have in the past (you will have to wait for more on that).
-Any hints? It would help with development. Of course, since my number is "100", that makes me (ahem) last ( ), so I guess I've got time. For now, I'm working on a swineherd and relatives, which could easily cover 3 domiciles. They'll fit in anywhere.
There will be a brief on the village, its history, and a preliminary map even.
jamesdglick wrote:
Also, there's a woodland trail that goes to the hamlet. Does it continue? Where to? Wood Elves? How difficult is the trail to Nyrond (there has to be some path, however circuitous, that eventually gets there. Several, actually, if you consider all the branch-offs)?
It goes into the Gamboge and leads to elven, gnomish, and other communities. The trail undoubtedly emerges on the Nyrond side of the Gamboge. More than that (and what has been mentioned before regarding outside powers) you have absolutely no need to know. We are not detailing the entire Gamboge Forest. We are not detailing the entire inner workings of the village community. We are not writing an adventure. We are each detailing a few locations, in a village, in the Gamboge Forest that a DM may (or may not) make use of part or all of. This means that everyone should write articles with the aim to strike a balance between keeping things simple, and yet interesting. That means not getting so specific that anyone runs roughshod over anybody elses' articles. Keep to your own topics as much as possible.
"But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!
No, they do not need to know that!
Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them. "6. Children's Bedroom" is a perfectly fine description of a simple and unimportant room. Also describe the people there, and anything usual/unusual as well.
Main location articles should be around 2-5 pages in length, depending on the size/complexity of the location. If anybody has more than that, they have probably gone off the deep end of over thinking things. Secondary location articles should be 1-3 pages in length at most (simple maps are highly recommended here as well), depending on the size/complexity of the location, and, once again, having much more that that points to going off the deep end.
Basically, write a short, informative essay on each location, make a map, number and label the locations on the map, and describe any map locations that require it. A simple farm house for instance may not require any interior description other than room labels, the exterior description and a general description of who lives there and what they do being just fine. What we are NOT looking for is...
Chapter 1- The Book of Ned (being a recounting of the line of Ned from the villages inception, by Ned).
Chapter 2- The Things that Ned Does (by Ned)
Chapter 3- The Things Ned's Family Does (what my family does, by Ned)
Chapter 3- How to properly Build a Farmhouse of Bronzewood (by Ned)
Chapter 4- The Names of My Pigs (452 pages of champion swine, by Ned)
Chapter 5- I Think Those Elves in Hex W2-64 Stole my Prize Truffler (let me tell you all about their village and the fifteen suspects I have, by Ned)
Please turn it down from 11 to, like, 6 or 7.
Also, I have a draft thread in the works (you all can't see it at the moment), and it just awaits a preliminary village map to launch it. I'll try and have it ready by the weekend. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
..."But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!
No, they do not need to know that!
1) Actually, markets are key!
2) I wasn't actually thinking of that; I assumed that there'd be enough of a market in the village, plus a little trade with Abbotsford or Woodsedge, but now that you mention it...
3) Gnomes do not love truffles. Dwarves do. They use it in their beer...
I was actually thinking about what sort of contacts they might have to the south. One issue might be passers-through who would be agents of Nyrond. Another is, some new people show up, but where do people raised in the hamlet (still need a name) go? Not everyone is going to stick around. Some of the kids might move to the Pale (true love, or ideology), but I think more would head south.
Cebrion wrote:
Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue...
"Agricultural extension is a general term meaning the application of scientific research and new knowledge to agricultural practices through farmer education. The field of 'extension' now encompasses a wider range of communication and learning activities organized for rural people by educators from different disciplines, including agriculture, agricultural marketing, health, and business studies..."
Cebrion wrote:
...Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done...
"It is not known where or when the first extension activities took place. It is known, however, that Chinese officials were creating agricultural policies, documenting practical knowledge, and disseminating advice to farmers at least 2,000 years ago. For example, in approximately 800 BC, the minister responsible for agriculture under one of the Zhou dynasty emperors organized the teaching of crop rotation and drainage to farmers. The minister also leased equipment to farmers, built grain stores and supplied free food during times of famine.
The birth of the modern extension service has been attributed to events that took place in Ireland in the middle of the 19th century. Between 1845–51 the Irish potato crop was destroyed by fungal diseases and a severe famine occurred (see Great Irish Famine). The British Government arranged for "practical instructors" to travel to rural areas and teach small farmers how to cultivate alternative crops. This scheme attracted the attention of government officials in Germany, who organized their own system of traveling instructors. By the end of the 19th century, the idea had spread to Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, and France..."
...and unlike clerics, these guys didn't even have magic to help them along (at least, as far as we know... ).
"Find your local county extension office with this list of the agricultural extension offices across the US..."
There's a reason people go to college to learn about agriculture, and it's not just about the cool fraternity.
Now, it is possible that some of the hamleters won't appreciate help because their flat out stupid (INT or WIS), or insecure (WIS), and perhaps the clerics CHA. But even a 1st level Adept might have a helpful spell or a "knowledge (nature)" skill which most commoners would lack.
Cebrion wrote:
That's the thing- even "romanticized pioneers" is beyond off the mark. The "pioneers" are *long dead*, and developing land 500 yards from a village palisade is not exactly pioneering....
-Tell that to a frontiersman who was 500 yards from the fort when the Apache showed up.
Cebrion wrote:
...Due to the type of people who founded (and continue to live in) the community, there has pretty much always been an understanding regarding the balance of nature, and by that I do not mean the whole True Neutral thing, but not depleting the flora and fauna of the area, such that its resources will not be renewed...
-Hmmm...
Druid of Obad Hai and sidekick arrive to confront farmer Bob and his family, who are clearing a new acre to add to their cropland:
Druid: "I ask you to cease and desist. I believe this new clearing to be excessive, and offensive to The Shalm. One should live in harmony with nature in all its variety."
Bob: "Yeah, well, these acres are unusually acidic, but my daughter was talking that friendly rep' of Phyton, and he pointed out that that the acidity would be great for the asparagus I've been thinking of trying out."
Druid: "THOSE WHO DESTROY OR OTHERWISE HARM NATURE DESERVE SWIFT VENGEANCE IN AN APPROPRIATE MANNER!"
Bob: "Look, Hoss, my family didn't leave the Pale so we could be bullied by some jerk with a tree fetish. No wonder all the dryads go for Ehlonna instead of you. So, in a spirit of cooperation, I suggest [...as Bob's family reach for their axes and crossbows...] that you mind your own business, which consists of giving religious guidance to people actually who ask for it. You can leave before I count to 20, or we can rack up 900-1500 experience points at your expense."
The Druid turns on his heel, followed by his sidekick, muttering under his breath about a lack of respect for the traditions of the Shalm, all the while counting to 20 in his head while wondering "how did he know about my old girlfriend!?" [Farmer Bob's family earns 90-150 XPs for successfully resolving the issue without violence, which is just enough to kick Bob up to 3rd level! ]
Cebrion wrote:
...Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them...
-Hmmm...
I haven't done a PP or a jpeg in a while, and I don't think I've ever done "construction" with one. I might need assistance, or I could simply describe it.
..."But my pig farmers need to know how many gnomes, and of what type and levels, live within a 100 mile radius of their truffle hunting grounds, because gnomes love truffles!
No, they do not need to know that!
1) Actually, markets are key!
2) I wasn't actually thinking of that; I assumed that there'd be enough of a market in the village, plus a little trade with Abbotsford or Woodsedge, but now that you mention it...
3) Gnomes do not love truffles. Dwarves do. They use it in their beer...
I was actually thinking about what sort of contacts they might have to the south. One issue might be passers-through who would be agents of Nyrond. Another is, some new people show up, but where do people raised in the hamlet (still need a name) go? Not everyone is going to stick around. Some of the kids might move to the Pale (true love, or ideology), but I think more would head south.
Once again, you are over thinking it. You don't need woodland or southern development. Just say "Ned does business with communities in the forest, and to the south.", not that he probably does. He probably does business only with the local community because it is capable of consuming what he (and others) produces, as he (and other farmers) is not an industrial level farmer. How difficult is that? Not difficult at all.
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
Sorry, a city planner is a bit out of place in this venue...
"Agricultural extension is a general term meaning the application of scientific research and new knowledge to agricultural practices through farmer education. The field of 'extension' now encompasses a wider range of communication and learning activities organized for rural people by educators from different disciplines, including agriculture, agricultural marketing, health, and business studies..."
That quote confirms everything I think. Sorry, the village isn't a part of an empire, nor does it have the resources of an empire or modern knowlege. The village also isn't a part of anything even remotely as regimented/codified/overseen as ancient China, Rome, and similar empires were. It's a small, Medieval-ish village, with Medieval-ish know-how.
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
...Also, nobody needs a priest to tell them how to develop their land- they already know how to do that and what needs to be done...
"It is not known where or when the first extension activities took place. It is known, however, that Chinese officials were creating agricultural policies, documenting practical knowledge, and disseminating advice to farmers at least 2,000 years ago. For example, in approximately 800 BC, the minister responsible for agriculture under one of the Zhou dynasty emperors organized the teaching of crop rotation and drainage to farmers. The minister also leased equipment to farmers, built grain stores and supplied free food during times of famine.
The birth of the modern extension service has been attributed to events that took place in Ireland in the middle of the 19th century. Between 1845–51 the Irish potato crop was destroyed by fungal diseases and a severe famine occurred (see Great Irish Famine). The British Government arranged for "practical instructors" to travel to rural areas and teach small farmers how to cultivate alternative crops. This scheme attracted the attention of government officials in Germany, who organized their own system of traveling instructors. By the end of the 19th century, the idea had spread to Denmark, Netherlands, Italy, and France..."
...and unlike clerics, these guys didn't even have magic to help them along (at least, as far as we know... ).
"Find your local county extension office with this list of the agricultural extension offices across the US..."
There's a reason people go to college to learn about agriculture, and it's not just about the cool fraternity. ;
Once again, empire/modern practices. You commit the mistake of one, thinking in modern terms, and two, thinking that ancient common people were inept and incapable of doing anything well enough on their own. What, some government official who probably never farmed in their life figured it all out and then told them what they needed to do? Hardly. All those empires did was allocate resources to study the methods that *farmers already knew and used*, and spread knowledge of the most efficient ways of doing things (Hey you! Use fish manure instead of oxen manure, because your yield will be 4% higher!", etc). That sort of information was further studied and codified over time, and had any new information from technological advancement added to it, to become what is studied today. Doesn't mean that the ancient common people couldn't grow crops without having somebody who never had dirt under their finger nails tell them how?
You may recall that the Native Americans befriended by the Pilgrims showed them what to grow, and *how to do it*, so that they would not go through again what they did their first winter in the New World. They thought the Pilgrims were basically morons, and rightly so, for starving to death as much as they did that first year, and I am pretty sure that it didn't take the resources/bureaucracy of an empire for the Native Americans to know, let alone be able to pass on, the super-secret formula of "Dig hole; put in dead fish; put in seed; cover it up; water as needed." This is not exactly something easily forgotten. It is not that complicated, and when people are doing *something to survive*, they tend to learn how to do it well enough, because if they don't, they die, and so do not pass on their ineptitude. The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods. You are once again way, way, way over thinking it- "anachronistially" even. Know the topic and relate to it from *its own* perspective, rather than know your own perspective and impose it upon the topic. "The ancient Chinese empire did things this way, so the village should too." is exactly the wrong way to think.
jamesdglick wrote:
Now, it is possible that some of the hamleters won't appreciate help because their flat out stupid (INT or WIS), or insecure (WIS), and perhaps the clerics CHA. But even a 1st level Adept might have a helpful spell or a "knowledge (nature)" skill which most commoners would lack.
Once again, you ignore that the community has been there a while. There were farmers in the area here doing what they know how to do *before* there were priests also living among the community. And they apparently survived because they knew what they were doing. Any teachings that priests could give would have been implemented generations ago and have been passed down, such that it is utterly a non-issue at this point in time, and therefore a non-topic. Do they ask the priests for advice now? No, not really, because they don't need to (and didn't really ever need to much anyways). Now, if some *unknown* blight were to strike the crops would the farmers then seek the priests out for advice? Of course they would, but then we aren't talking about anything like that now, are we, just "how to farm". The farmers know their stuff well enough, as farmers usually do.
jamesdglick wrote:
Cebrion wrote:
...Here is what people need to do. Describe one main location you have chosen, based on the draft. While optional, it is highly recommended that people draw a simple map of their location, number any separate rooms/locations, and give VERY brief descriptions of them...
I haven't done a PP or a jpeg in a while, and I don't think I've ever done "construction" with one. I might need assistance, or I could simply describe it.
People just need to get a piece of graph paper, draw their map on it in *black ink*, label the areas with numbers, scan it or take a picture of it with their phone's camera or a camera, and e-mail it to me. Anybody who can't manage this, to them I would simply ask, "Could you tell me exactly how you managed to get on the intarwebz?" I will be working to put any rough maps that are submitted into a more finished form. If you all give me map that look like the top one in the picture below, and I'll provide maps for everyone that look more like the bottom one.
This will be fairly easy for me to do, as the buildings will be very small (even if there will be a lot of them). Then, if we are lucky, somebody will volunteer to create a nicer looking final village map with everything in its place. Finally, if we can do all of this, we may also compile everything as a special release for Canonfire! Chronicles (but that would happen later on). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
...Once again, empire/modern practices. You commit the mistake of one, thinking in modern terms, and two, thinking that ancient common people were inept and incapable of doing anything well enough on their own... The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods...
-You're being overly literal. No "empire" has to order a cleric of Phyton (or anyone else) what to do, it's just something he does because he wants to.
The fact that someone accepts help in their trade does not mean they are inept. (You must be real hoot when you go for re-training... ).
The point is that any sensible farmer knows he can use a little help, and will take it if someone offers it, if the advice seems good.
Cebrion wrote:
...You may recall that the Native Americans befriended by the Pilgrims showed them what to grow, and *how to do it*, so that they would not go through again what they did their first winter in the New World...it didn't take the resources/bureaucracy of an empire for the Native Americans to know, let alone be able to pass on, the super-secret formula of "Dig hole; put in dead fish; put in seed; cover it up; water as needed."
-I remember those ridiculous pictures of Indians teaching Pilgrims to bury a fish next to the maize they wanted to grow from my elementary school book, yes (actually, a quick check shows that they're still doing those pictures. Good God). But there's zero evidence that the Patuxent (or any other New England Indians) ever did that, and if Squanto was teaching the Pilgrims to do that, then he was a gigantic moron, because they would be going to the trouble of catching a fish (high protein) to gain a trivial gain in (low protein) maize. There is a theory that Squanto picked up the basic concept of fish fertilizer while a prisoner in England, but they used the bones and gizzard, not the whole fish, and it wouldn't have helped much with maize anyway.
It's hard to tell who should be more insulted by the story: The Indians or the Pilgrims.
Which brings us to:
Cebrion wrote:
...They thought the Pilgrims were basically morons, and rightly so, for starving to death as much as they did that first year...
-Actually, the Pilgrims brought plenty of grain, but most of the grain went bad during the delay caused by the storm which convinced them to land at Plymouth instead of Virginia. You can't grow what you don't have.
Cebrion wrote:
... It is not that complicated, and when people are doing *something to survive*, they tend to learn how to do it well enough, because if they don't, they die, and so do not pass on their ineptitude...
- Going back to your example of the Pilgrims: Once they were in America, without their grain, the Pilgrims were stuck with maize for a while. The reason they went to the Indians is that the Indians knew all the ins and outs of growing maize, which consists of a lot more than "dig a hole, dump in corn, water it, watch it grow." There are soil conditions, temperature, moisture, crop-specific pest and blight problems. Experience deals with some of that, but sometimes problems roll around that even the eldest haven't run into. You want a body of knowledge that goes beyond that.
Cebrion wrote:
...Once again, you ignore that the community has been there a while...
-No, I didn't.
Going back to my example of farmer Bob, if he's growing a crop (asparagus) that he's never grown before, he'll want help. Actually, in that case, someone who had a wide body of knowledge (the Phyton guy) was able to make a suggestion which farmer Bob (who generally only knows what he's taught or heard) wouldn't have even considered.
The emergencies you mention which would require fancier knowledge (blight, pests, drought, etc) come along in some way almost every year. Any farmer I've ever talked seems to consider his crops and livestock to be in a perpetual state of emergency.
Cebrion wrote:
...The village isn't practicing modern farming methods, nor are they farming for an empire, but are practicing medieval-ish farming methods. You are once again way, way, way over thinking it- "anachronistially" even..
1) Careful. "Anachronistically" is a fighting word for a historian. I seriously doubt that you've studied medieval agriculture as much as I have (which isn't my specialty, but does have a bit of bearing on my field).
2) As I often say, the Flaneass isn't exactly medieval, but quasi-medieval. Their technological level may be circa 1445 (minus gunpowder, plus galleons, which is sort of contradictory, but anyway), but their way of thinking is generally a lot more modern.
Cebrion wrote:
...People just need to get a piece of graph paper, draw their map on it in *black ink*, label the areas with numbers, scan it or take a picture of it with their phone's camera or a camera, and e-mail it to me...
-The scanning part is the problem...
Cebrion wrote:
...Anybody who can't manage this, to them I would simply ask, "Could you tell me exactly how you managed to get on the intarwebz?"
-I don't have a home computer or a scanner. I use a variety of library computers; they generally wouldn't appreciate me monkeying with their computers, regardless of how wonderful a patron I am.
And my cell phone is a cell phone. It doesn't draw pictures or show me true north. I do both myself.
______________ = 10 ft. (building footprint = 20 ft. X 35 ft. overall)
0 = door
All walls are meant to be straight (of course).
That is all I would need to translate it to a finished version. As to the simple entries, like a farmhouse, they should be something like this:
"29. Farmhouse
Brief description.
1. Entry Room
Brief description.
2. Farmer's Bedroom
Brief description.
3. Children's Bedroom
Brief description.
4. Kitchen/Pantry
Brief description.
Closing details regarding anything interesting about the location."
Something like the above should be the standard for a location as simple as a farmhouse.
As to the rest, it is unnecessary to delve this deep into any related topic to write up "29. Farmhouse". Describe the location and any key points, not write a treatise on the history of industrial farming, animal husbandry, how monks were instrumental in preserving and teaching farming methods post Dark Ages...er...post Greyhawk Wars; fish poo or cow poo- which is better; market shares in pork bellies, pork rinds, and pork chops- the gnomish connection; why my neighbors' grass is greener than mine, etc. Delve into whatever research you want to, but leave the extraneous information out of your offerings. Keep it close to the sort of description you would see for such locations in an adventure. Don't write "Farmhouse- The Collected EPIC Series!!!", but "29. Farmhouse".
Seeing as there is apparently nothing else to add to the locations list, this thread seems to be a done deal. Back to mapping for me... _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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