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    Canonfire :: View topic - How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.
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    How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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    From: The Great Northwest

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    Sun Aug 29, 2004 1:57 pm  
    How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    Hey Hawkers,

    Great Site!

    I'm rather long on imagination, but short on canon. I searched(honest) the engine and gave up. If this is resolved somewhere, please link me.

    Specifically, In 505 Zagig trapped Iuz, who was released is 570. But is 566 Zuggtmoy built the temple using the Iuz/Zuggtmoy artifact Yellowskull to create the nodes. Also, several places mentions that Iuz wasn't a god 'till freed by Robiliar. How did you in your campains resolve this?

    This is the last solution (of three) I used to fix this problem, but I'm still unhappy with it: Iuz was already a god when Zagig got 'em.(supported) He made the skull and the plans with Zuggy b4 capture, enabling Zuggy to utilize it's magic later and with her consort gone, merely delayed building the temple.(It took many decades to replace the infrastructure Iuz was to provide).

    IMC Iuz could still grant spells(but only to 5th level), while captured. He did not know where he was cause of Zagig and the Oerth stone, so he couldn't direct a rescue. This fixes issues with the other trapped gods as well.

    Let me know what you did or link me up.
    Thanks in Advance,

    Muscles
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 26, 2001
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    Sun Aug 29, 2004 2:00 pm  

    I just pushed back the year he was released from the Greyhawk Dungeons.
    Scott
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
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    From: Sky Island, So Cal

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    Mon Aug 30, 2004 9:25 am  

    This is an OLD cheastnut. If the Greytalk archive is working you can search there for all kinds of answers. It comes up cyclicly.

    There is no canon resolution AFAIK, it is just one of those timeline things that EGG fans have to grin and bear.

    In my own campaign I put the capture and release of Iuz 100 years back, so he was free to participate in the TEE.

    As far as his status when captured, I do not recall any EXPLICIT canon quote on that. That Zagig was said to have captured "demi-gods and powers" or somesuch implies that Iuz had already ascended when he was taken, and this view is held by Gary Holian.

    In my own campaign I use the following sequence:

    Iuz born a cambion

    Iuz tutored in magic by his mother.

    Mother dissapears: Iuz impersonates bandit lord's son and begins rule. Worshippers have access to spells of 1st and second level.

    Iuz works with Zuggtmoy to create a soul gem, ascends to demon lord status. Worshipers have access to spells of third level.

    Iuz captured and imprisoned by Zagig.

    Iuz released, from knowledge of Zagig's prison, Iuz creates Soul Husk caverns and ascends to divine status. Worshippers gain spells of up to fourth level.

    Iuz creates an empire and an extensive clergy. Worshippers capable of casting spells up to 5th level. His dietyhood will now survive destruction of the Soul Husks, though his personal power will be reduced.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 29, 2004
    Posts: 39
    From: The Great Northwest

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    Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:30 pm  

    Hey guys,

    Yeah, I don't have any books or modules that answer the question, so like a good DM I made it up. I went to the greytalk archive but it was down, I thought someone in this great site would have some arcane reference from Dungeon mag or somesuch that I've never read. I'll check greytalk later. I've grinned and bore this quandry for 20 years, maybe someday I'll bump into GG and he can enlighten me.

    Muscles
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    From: New Jersey

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    Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:34 pm  

    I just treated Zagig much like Caligila, he insane you know! Whose too say that those men , women or whatever that where imprisoned where actually ever the gods that Zagig thought and believes he captured. Think about it the Great Kindom had Hex tor and heironious as two of their major deities which where a threat to his rule! Perhaps he thought these gods where after him when in fact these people could of been normal soldiers or peasents maybe a monster or two. For Heironious I would suggest a knight or paladin adored in a silver chain mail or plate armor, while for hextor something like an umberhulk or a warrior in blackened plate armor. Wastri could be a frog or bullywug or grippli. Maybe on one or two of these he actually got something powerful caught like a demon. heck any cambion could of been caught it doesn't mean it was Iuz. Or maybe Iuz choose to let everyone else believe he was captured so as to draw attention elsewhere. after all he is deceitful look what he did to the people of the north I'm Vatun . Yeah right!
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 14, 2002
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    From: Patra, Greece

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    Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:11 am  
    Re: How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    Muscles wrote:
    Hey Hawkers,
    This is the last solution (of three) I used to fix this problem, but I'm still unhappy with it: Iuz was already a god when Zagig got 'em.(supported) He made the skull and the plans with Zuggy b4 capture, enabling Zuggy to utilize it's magic later and with her consort gone, merely delayed building the temple.(It took many decades to replace the infrastructure Iuz was to provide).
    Muscles


    It seems logical to me. Also, your interpretation is empowered by a reference inside T1-4 concerning the fact that the original location of ToEE was near (probably few horse ride days) the shores of Nyr Dyv. For unknown reasons, ToEE relocated near Hommlet later. It quite likely that the temple was destroyed by St. Cuthbert and co, Iuz was trapped, and the whole project was on the hands of Zuggy.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 26, 2001
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    From: Pittsburgh

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    Tue Sep 07, 2004 1:51 pm  
    Re: How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    Tzelios wrote:
    It seems logical to me. Also, your interpretation is empowered by a reference inside T1-4 concerning the fact that the original location of ToEE was near (probably few horse ride days) the shores of Nyr Dyv. For unknown reasons, ToEE relocated near Hommlet later. It quite likely that the temple was destroyed by St. Cuthbert and co, Iuz was trapped, and the whole project was on the hands of Zuggy.

    It's just another one of the T1-4 editing mistakes. The truth behind the 'shores of the Nyr Dyv' reference is that some of EGG's notes that Frank M was using when throwing T1-4 together were written in 77-78 before the published version of the WoG was completed. Gary was using notes based on his home campaign.
    There never was supposed to be any relocation, but that is a very creative way of tying things together.
    Scott
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:08 am  
    Re: How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    ScottG wrote:
    Tzelios wrote:
    It seems logical to me. Also, your interpretation is empowered by a reference inside T1-4 concerning the fact that the original location of ToEE was near (probably few horse ride days) the shores of Nyr Dyv. For unknown reasons, ToEE relocated near Hommlet later. It quite likely that the temple was destroyed by St. Cuthbert and co, Iuz was trapped, and the whole project was on the hands of Zuggy.

    It's just another one of the T1-4 editing mistakes. The truth behind the 'shores of the Nyr Dyv' reference is that some of EGG's notes that Frank M was using when throwing T1-4 together were written in 77-78 before the published version of the WoG was completed. Gary was using notes based on his home campaign.
    There never was supposed to be any relocation, but that is a very creative way of tying things together.
    Scott


    Then, bravo to Frank Mentzer for his creativity, as well as, for showing us (the hobbyist designers and DMs) the ways of world development. By using unpublished notes (thus, an unofficial or non-canon source) of Gygax he created canon. This is an example of the way the Monatic approach can be used to the ends of creating canon by a hobbyist. What Mentzer did on the above example is the most convenient, simple, and elegant way to conduct continuity between Gygax's campaign and the new rendition of T1-4.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 26, 2001
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    From: Pittsburgh

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    Fri Sep 10, 2004 2:11 pm  
    Re: How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    Tzelios wrote:
    Then, bravo to Frank Mentzer for his creativity, as well as, for showing us (the hobbyist designers and DMs) the ways of world development. By using unpublished notes (thus, an unofficial or non-canon source) of Gygax he created canon. This is an example of the way the Monatic approach can be used to the ends of creating canon by a hobbyist. What Mentzer did on the above example is the most convenient, simple, and elegant way to conduct continuity between Gygax's campaign and the new rendition of T1-4.

    He didn't do it on purpose. He just used text from some of the pages of Gary's notes he had without doing any real editing. Just like the alignment of Thrommel's sword, and references to Lolth, it's not supposed to be in there. Putting together T1-4 was a slap-dash affair. It's amazing it turned out as good as it did.
    I was talking about your idea:
    Quote:
    It quite likely that the temple was destroyed by St. Cuthbert and co, Iuz was trapped, and the whole project was on the hands of Zuggy.
    that I thought was a creative way of making the editing mistake into workable material.
    Scott
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 14, 2004 3:16 am  
    Re: How did you resolve the Iuz Trapped issues.

    ScottG wrote:
    He just used text from some of the pages of Gary's notes he had without doing any real editing. Just like the alignment of Thrommel's sword, and references to Lolth, it's not supposed to be in there.
    Scott


    Allow me to express my reservations. Following is excerpt from a canonfire! article (http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=338):

    Extreme 2: Thrommel is actually Chaotic Good
    This extreme is based on an unconfirmed, though intriguing, communication of "Cooter Pooch" (a Troika guy?) with Gary Gygax. Throughout this communication Gygax claims exactly the opposite from what he said in the Oerth Journal interview. He states that he "was planning a CG Paladin, one who didn't fit the mold," and that "the easiest and likely more interesting way of managing the dichotomy is to have the name "Paladin" as a title."
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:24 am  

    Well, there are a few things about that quote that don't sound right. It's unconfirmed. He's already said the CG was an error. He's from Furyondy. He's Belvor's son. Thrommel was written as a paladin in the late 70s. That's a long time to pass without hearing any word on EGG working on alternate paladins except one unconfirmed article, especially when you consider the new classes EGG presented in Dragon, the UA was released with new classes. In the article EGG first discusses 2E, he mentions changes to existing classes, and new clases, but no mention of a CG paladin.
    Scott
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    Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:29 am  

    ScottG wrote:
    There never was supposed to be any relocation
    (of the ToEE),
    ScottG wrote:
    but that is a very creative way of tying things together.


    To that I should thank you, even after such a long time that has passed from this discussion.

    True is that I was preparing an article lately inspired by the present subject. I am nothing. Still, I feel compelled to communicate that faults of certain persistent and repetitive nature in a product (like the Thrommel alignment and the “shores of Nyr Dyv” references in the T1-4 product in our case), discontinuities between products, and most types of contradictions within a product, do indeed contribute to the creation of new material. The new material is produced by the effort to resolve those problems. If the solutions that resolve anomalies in the material are clearly simple, ingenious, and do not create more anomalies, then “potentially canon” material is produced. I like the term Potentially Canon and I will probably use it very frequently in the future. The term is useful for all GMs (old DM) and writers that are not employees of the mental rights owner.
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    Kobold Pinata

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002
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    Sun May 29, 2005 1:11 pm  

    Y'all seem to be overlooking the fact that Gygax changes what he says from interview to interview and nothing he says can be considered the truth because of it.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun May 29, 2005 2:07 pm  

    Aloha Delglath,

    What is exactly the nature of your comment, what part of our reasoning is the one that bothers you? Your statement on Gygax's interviews is a very general one that I cannot completely agree with. In very few instances Gygax have said controversial things, but let us not discuss this in the context of the present topic.

    But it is quite interesting that you resurfaced the present topic on the resolution of the Iuz trapped issues in this particular time. As a matter of fact the article has already been written after a long preparation, coauthored by Scott Casper, and is to appear in the upcoming OJ issue.

    Heads up!

    tz
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon May 30, 2005 7:48 pm  

    For what it's worth, I ran this question by Frank Mentzer over at Dragonsfoot. This was his reply:

    Frank Mentzer wrote:
    True enough that there's an error of temporal inversion, Prata, but it has no major effect. And beings like Iuz and Zuggie can get around in some fashion even when imprisoned.

    F


    We all know that errors exist in ToEE, but I do like this idea. Just because Iuz was physically imprisoned by Zagyg doesn't necessarily mean he couldn't communicate with Zuggtmoy; ditto for Z now that she's imprisoned.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue May 31, 2005 2:40 am  

    [quote="DMPrata"]For what it's worth, I ran this question by Frank Mentzer over at Dragonsfoot. This was his reply:
    Frank Mentzer wrote:
    True enough that there's an error of temporal inversion, Prata, but it has no major effect. And beings like Iuz and Zuggie can get around in some fashion even when imprisoned.F


    It makes sense that they communicate Iuz and Zuggy during imprisonment. There are however other issues, like the creation of the Yellowskull (jointly fabricated by Iuz and Zuggy) and the overall development of the ToEE (jointly developed by the two, not just communications).

    I do believe that the forums not only help resolve problems on one single product, but provide the necessary ground for advanced Greyhawk research towards the examination of more than one text into coherent, continuity enhancing histories.
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