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    Canonfire :: View topic - Spec Priests/Turning Undead
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Spec Priests/Turning Undead
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
    From: Minnesota

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    Wed May 22, 2013 5:10 pm  
    Spec Priests/Turning Undead

    I was trying to see if this was already directly covered. If so, sorry.

    I have been looking at the priest class lately. I like the specialty priests as it gives a little more individualism to the priests like different fighting styles/weapons/specializations gives to the fighter.

    My question is this, why do so many of the specialy priests have no ability to control undead? My players are more frustrated with it than I. Most of the time, they pick a deity that has the turn or command ability.

    What are some of your thoughts on all priests being able to turn undead? I read the earlier post on Wee Jas. I can understand the argument against some deities turning undead but some part of me liked the old school priests having that ability.

    The reason I am asking, is I was thinking about going to 100% turn undead and see how it plays out. Looking for advise or previous experience in 2e.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Wed May 22, 2013 6:01 pm  

    Specialty priests should have the same turning (or commanding) ability as 'normal clerics' for that Power, if it is granted at all. NOT ALL CLERICS HAVE TURN/COMMAND ABILITY. For instance, Trithereon and Ulaa do NOT grant it at all. Others have limited or reduced turning ability, such as the clerics of Ehlonna, Rao, Heironeous, and St Cuthbert. Clerics of Pholtus have 'regular' turning ability, whereas clerics of Pelor garner a +1 level bonus for turning!

    Some fell Powers follow suit. For instance, clerics of Erythnul and Hextor are both penalized, clerics of Nerull and Incabulos have normal commanding power, and clerics of Iuz enjoy a +1 level bonus.

    It all depends upon the portfolio of the Power.

    I hope this helps,

    Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Wed May 22, 2013 6:38 pm  

    Just in case you don't have this information, here are the clerical turning/commanding abilities according to the Powers listed in From the Ashes. If there is a Power (or Powers) not on this list that you require, please let me know, and I will see if I have that information.

    Beory: nil
    Boccob: nil
    Incabulos: command
    Istus: nil
    Nerull: command
    Pelor: +1 lvl
    Rao: turn at -4 lvls
    Celestian: nil
    St Cuthbert: turn at -4 lvls
    Ehlonna: turn at -3 lvls
    Erythnul: command at -4 lvls
    Fharlanghn: nil
    Heironeous: turn at -2 lvls
    Hextor: command at -2 lvls (according to Bastion of Faith, which I think is reasonable given that his half-brother can Turn)
    Kord: nil
    Lendor: nil
    Obad-hai: nil
    Olidammara: nil
    Pholtus: turn
    Procan: nil
    Ralishaz: nil
    Tharizdun: command
    Trithereon: nil
    Ulaa: nil
    Wee Jas: command (special)
    Zilchus: nil
    Iuz: command at +1 lvl
    Mayaheine: turn

    Let me know if you require others, including the pantheon from demi-humans or humanoids.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
    Posts: 378
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    Wed May 22, 2013 8:06 pm  

    Sorry, I may not have been clear enough.

    I understand each deity may or may not offer the ability to turn undead depending on their portfolio.

    I am just curious how you think it would effect the game if each and every cleric (regardless of belief system) was given the ability to turn undead. Just as it were with generic clerics except I want to keep the other aspects of specialty priests.

    Am I asking for trouble?

    My players want their priests to have the turn undead ability. If that is the case, should I just guide them to the deities that offer turning undead?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

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    Thu May 23, 2013 3:12 am  

    Or you can just have everyone just play Clerics, who can turn undead, and add special spells and signature weapons to their regular repertoires. While well intentioned, the specialty priest concept was just horribly implemented. A GH product limiting spells by deity classification merely served to compound the problem. In the end, make it what you want, but be mindful of keeping the power levels among priests, and among them and the other classes equitable to the XP they pay for leveling up.
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
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    Thu May 23, 2013 9:19 am  

    Thanks for the input. I was working on trying to expand on Finnish deities for spec priests and found myself more and more tempted to go away from spec priests and back to clerics are clerics and druids are druids. Maybe with some of the special powers for each deity added in. Seems it would make things a bit easier for my players and I, albeit a bit more bland.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Thu May 23, 2013 2:51 pm  

    At first I didn't appreciate how some priests could not turn undead while others could, but upon later reflection, I was OK with it.

    Furthermore, since I use the 2.5 product Skills and Powers for character generation, I allow priests who do NOT have turning ability 10 CPs (the cost of Turning Undead) extra to spend on skills, abilities, whatever. In that vein, it balances out.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
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    Fri May 24, 2013 10:13 am  

    I am not sure if this would be a new thread or not . . .

    In regards to skills and powers. I have at least one player that liked the idea of the CP system of building characters.

    In your experience, how hard was it to switch to that system. I have the books and looked into it a bit but have not taken it any further. I have heard you reference it many times now and the system seems to work well for you.

    I have been somewhat interested but since we are just getting back into playing, I have tried to avoid a lot of new info until we get more proficient in the basic system again.

    Is it hard to track the points, etc?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Fri May 24, 2013 8:57 pm  

    No, it is easy, and there is no tracking of points after class creation. You just write down the purchased features for the class, and that is it, though you can defer some abilities to higher levels, like spell access for a paladin, turn undead finally becoming available at 3rd level, etc., which lowers the cost of some things.

    For example, I could create a Priest of Tritherion class with the following features and costs:

    A priest starts off with the following base features:

    - d8 Hit Die.
    - uses the priest's THAC0.
    - uses priest's saving throw chart.
    - gains the ability to cast priest spells as indicated on Table 24: Priest Spell Progression in the PHB.
    - may use only bludgeoning weapons.
    - may wear any kind of armor.
    - may use any magical item normally usable by priests.

    Everything else must be purchased, and the priest has 120 points to spend.

    Let's start with spheres. Make your wish list first, meaning a list of what Spheres make sense for the deity in general. For instance, Tritherion is not a god of healing, but the priests of most gods have healing powers to some degree. The more beneficent (or warlike) they are, the more likely they will have such powers (unless the god is about evil and suffering, in which case the access may be minor or even nonexistent).

    Spheres (*denotes minor access)

    - All (5)
    - Animal* (5)
    - Chaos (8)
    - Charm (10)
    - Combat (10)
    - Creation* (5)
    - Divination* (5)
    - Healing (10)
    - Necromantic* (5)
    - Protection* (5)
    - Summoning (10)
    - Sun* (3)
    - Travelers* (3)

    ---------------------
    84 points spent so far, 36 more to be spent.

    I decide that I want a Priests of Tritherion, being crusaders for good, to be able to turn undead, but not as well. So I defer that ability to 3rd level, effectively making the Priest of Tritherion Turn Undead at -2 levels.

    - Turn Undead at -2 levels (14; 15 base -1 point for deferment to 3rd level)

    I want Priests of Tritherion to be able to gain followers as a normal cleric does, so I take that feature at the base cost.

    - Followers (5)

    I also want to give them the Inspire Allies ability to present that Priests of Tritherion are rabble-rousers.

    - Inspire Allies (5)

    I want Priests of Tritherion to be able to use any weapon.

    - Weapon selection (10)

    I also want a Priest of Tritherion to be able to use a wizard's monster summoning spells which falls under the Wizardly Priest upgrade. For 25 points the priest gains access to the entire list of conjuration/ summoning spells, but I want to limit them to only the monster summoning spells, so I multiple that 25 point cost by what percent of the conjuration/summoning school is monster summoning spells. Even though this percent reduces the cost to less than the 2 points I have left to spend, I rule that those 2 points are used up because I think that this Priest of Tritheriom has enough features, and I am not going to quibble over 1 point. If I delay this until 5th level, that takes the cost down by -2 points, meaning it costs pretty much nothing. Well, you never get something for nothing, so I just call it a wash. I will make it up with some added spells, once I write out the entire spell list and see if any spells are missing that I think would be very representative of Tritherion, yet did not fall within the Spheres I chose.

    - Wizardly priest (2-ish; only monster summoning spells)

    So, the summary looks like this:

    Priests of Tritherion

    Requirements: AB Std; AL CG; WP any (spear 1st, broadsword 2nd, mace 3rd); AR any; RA blue; SP All, Animal*, Chaos, Charm, Combat, Creation*, Divination*, Healing, Necromantic*, Protection*, Summoning, Sun*, Travelers*; SPL *I might add a few; PW 5) may use monster summoning spells from the wizard list as if priest spells of the same
    level; TU -2 levels.

    Barring any added spells, there you have it. Quite frankly, I like that better than what is in From the Ashes (Priests of Tritherion are backstabbers?! Really?! I am pretty sure that most Shield Landers wouldn't be all that keen on backstabbing bastards for priests. rolleyes).
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat May 25, 2013 6:14 pm; edited 3 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2013
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    Sat May 25, 2013 12:29 am  

    I like the concept. I will have to read up on it and see if any of the players want to give it a try and see how we like it.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat May 25, 2013 12:32 am  

    Don't let the player develop it- you develop it. Wink
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sat May 25, 2013 8:41 am  

    I think the 'backstabbing' bonus reflects the ideology that 'The Ends Justify the Means' attitude with respect towards combatting perceived Evil.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat May 25, 2013 6:11 pm  

    It is a bit too cowardly for my taste. Happy
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