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    Canonfire :: View topic - Crook of Rao - Fiends Gone Forever?
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    Crook of Rao - Fiends Gone Forever?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:03 am  
    Crook of Rao - Fiends Gone Forever?

    Curious. The Crook of Rao was used by Canon Hazen of Veluna to banish fiends in 586 CY. Some questions.

    Fiends. Devils? Demons? Both? Who got banished?

    Banished. Banished in the Flanaess? Banished from Oerik? Banished from Oerth? How broad is the banishment?

    For how long are they banished? Can they be summoned back? Not sure of its date at the moment but Return of the Eight saw Iggwilv preparing to lead another fiendish army to Oerth. I believe this was post 586 CY, post Flight of Fiends but I'm not sure at the moment.

    IMC, I have not answered these questions. Thoughts?

    GVD
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    From: Rel Astra

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    Mon Sep 20, 2004 7:12 am  

    Quote:
    Fiends. Devils? Demons? Both? Who got banished?


    All residents native to the Abyss.

    Quote:
    Banished. Banished in the Flanaess? Banished from Oerik? Banished from Oerth? How broad is the banishment?


    Banished to their native plane of existence.

    Quote:
    For how long are they banished? Can they be summoned back?


    For no set period of time. They obviously didn't have a desire to be on the Prime, being summoned and all... Summoning that many fiends back would take a long period of time, it's not something that can be done overnight.

    Quote:
    Return of the Eight saw Iggwilv preparing to lead another fiendish army to Oerth.


    Her army is (currently) set-up on 1 of Oerth moons, Luna I believe (rather than Celene.)
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    Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:09 pm  

    I agree with Abysslin, and I think that some of those fiends escaped the banishment, and I dont think that Demonologists cease to exist....but, an army like the one of Iuz require a looong time to be gathered again..more, the good nations are aware of that possibility and will crush any attempt almost immediately
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    Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:20 pm  

    Iuz's demonic aid was mainly brought over by way of the Blackspear Chamber in Dorakaa (ItE). This permanent gate to the abyss is in the north wing of Iu'z palace, fiends summoned from it are granted magical effects like stoneskin and increased magic resistance upon their return to the Abyss.

    Many lesser demons are bullied into service, but the stronger breeds that fill his Legion of Black Death or maraud the countryside at will are brought over by agreement with the demon's abyssal Lords. Iuz usually delegates these recruitments to his high priestesses or General Sindol.

    Dealing with greater fiends like Balor, Marilith and Nalfeshne demons or even sometimes the abyssal lords themselves is left to Iuz. Both sides get many benefits in making pacts. Iuz's empire building, demons gain by souls or treasure, or the Blackspear chamber. Iuz can't summon too many demons because favoring one abyssal lord over another would throw all his pacts into disarray. The Lords likewise can't weaken their homeplanes by loaning too many of their underlings.

    So the Crook not only sent these demons packing but it probably also prevented many demons from gaining benefits they were promised thus breaking many myriad pacts and forcing Iuz to start his negotiations over from scratch.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:09 pm  
    The Hell on Oerth Theory

    My theory behind the Flight of Fiends (as related in Hell on Oerth) is as follows:

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer describes that Dorakaa is still inhabited by many demons, and each individual demon may have resisted the effects of the Crook independently of other fiends.

    It has been theorized that the Crook only effected the fiends that were summoned to this world by certain particular portals (ie. the Blackspear Chamber in Iuz’s palace, or the portal in Onyxgate). That is, the Crook destroyed the portal and the resulting mystical backlash banished any fiend that came to Oerth by way of that portal, leaving those fiends summoned by other means on Oerth.

    So, the actual extent of the Crook’s effects on the fiends is up to individual DMs to determine.

    O-D
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    Tue Sep 21, 2004 5:49 am  

    I don't play LG too much right now (lack of opportunity rather than lack of interest), but I think this is being answered in the campaign.

    I know little, and there are significant spoilers there, but it seems that the Flight of Fiends is not quite the success everyone thinks. It's possible the baddies went voluntarily, and are not really banished.

    Hazen and company may also have been tricked into performing the ritual.
    CF Admin

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    Tue Sep 21, 2004 6:02 am  

    Quote:
    Hazen and company may also have been tricked into performing the ritual.


    /sigh, Another "isle raising" experience...
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    Tue Sep 21, 2004 8:53 am  

    Please elaborate on your meaning Abysslin. I get that you're referencing the LGH Isles of Woe story but (perhaps) don't know enough about it to understand your meaning.

    Regarding the Crook, I've often imagined that Hazen's use transcended the relic's power. Banishing the majority of 'fiends' from the face of Oerth (or even just the Flanaess) seems more like the deific intercession of a Greater Power. As I muse on the subject, I wonder if Incabulous and Nerull assented to Rao's action (in order to hurt Iuz). The reported sickness of participants in the ritual seem like evidence supporting Incabulous's "contribution." Recall that fiends fear Incabulous greatly. They do not dutifully serve 'him' but instead are subordinated.
    CF Admin

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    Tue Sep 21, 2004 9:12 am  

    Quote:
    It has been theorized that the Crook only effected the fiends that were summoned to this world by certain particular portals


    Ewps! I forgot to include this important bit of information in regards to which fiends were banished. This supports reasoning why the fiend-sage of Rel Astra and others were unaffected by Hazen's actions.

    Quote:
    I get that you're referencing the LGH Isles of Woe story


    I was... (ie.. I do not approve of the Living Campaign touching on such important matters on a worldly (Oerthly) level. Or rather, I do not mind, but let us not accept it as official, but rather as a (rather silly, in my opinion) story of a 3rd party campaign.)

    Quote:
    I wonder if Incabulous and Nerull assented to Rao's action (in order to hurt Iuz).


    I would deffinately think so. Iuz is (and has been) competing directly with those 2 for minions and followers out of the same warehouse, so to speak.
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    Wed Sep 22, 2004 5:21 am  

    Quote:
    sigh, Another "isle raising" experience...


    ROFL! I love this expression! And entirely agree.

    GVD
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    Wed Sep 22, 2004 11:06 pm  

    I have some fun (IMO) speculation about the Flight of Fiends, the Crook and the Mace (?!?) of Rao at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=268
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    Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
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    Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:12 am  

    Grodog,

    Very nicely written. I would have liked to have seen this go to press.

    The most interesting part to me is the "trade." Now, therein must hang a tale. Wink
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    GVD
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    Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:46 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Grodog,

    Very nicely written. I would have liked to have seen this go to press.

    The most interesting part to me is the "trade." Now, therein must hang a tale. Wink


    GV, thanks, I would have liked to be able to include the full versions of the materials in the published LGJ articles, too, but better here than nowhere :D

    I wish that Russell Bird was active in GH again--he did a great Fiend Sage, and would have made that trade into a good storyline!
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    Tue Sep 28, 2004 8:42 am  

    Abysslin wrote:
    Quote:
    Hazen and company may also have been tricked into performing the ritual.


    /sigh, Another "isle raising" experience...


    GH's always been about wheels within wheels. The possibility that there might be more going on than meets the eye with something as monumental as the Flight of Fiends is hardly questionable.

    As for people's problem with LG dealing with big themes, would you rather it kept to bokking kobolds in 10 by 10 rooms in generic little dungeons somewhere of no consequence instead of using the broad and glorious canvas that is Greyhawk and actually taking the setting somewhere? Just how long would LG last if it went nowhere, changed nothing? LG is a campaign, one that a lot of people enjoy. Asking it to not to walk on the grass of the big issues of Greyhawk is like asking a pro boxer to tie both hands behind his back going into a title fight. It just ain't gonna happen.

    Admittedly, if LG is going to tackle the big issues it should do them right. IMO the Ethers were not LG's finest hour and I understand the antipathy they cause in people. But to tar the entire Isles of Woe plot (hands up how many of you have actually read it and how it turns out?) and indeed the campaign as a whole with that brush is unfair. For every screw up, there's a lot of quality development going on. Is it going to be everyone's taste? Is LG Keoland going to be like everyone's own private Keoland. No and to expect it to be so is unreasonable. LG is a big shared campaign. Like any home campaign, it's not going to be to everyone's taste. On the other hand, it's a hell of a lot less heretical than your average home campaign. If home campaigns were ice cream, LG would be vanilla.

    At the risk of reopening the old wounds of the past, if all the people that now bitch and whine about how bad LG is had put that energy (and, man, are we talking a lot of energy) into engaging with the campaign, maybe it might be more to their liking.

    And am I biased in saying all that? Damn straight, but it's a lot harder to make LG work, grow and improve than it is to sit back and take snide potshots at it.

    Paul Looby

    LG Splintered Suns Metaregional Coordinator
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    Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:02 am  

    Quote:
    As for people's problem with LG dealing with big themes, would you rather it kept to bokking kobolds in 10 by 10 rooms in generic little dungeons somewhere of no consequence instead of using the broad and glorious canvas that is Greyhawk and actually taking the setting somewhere?


    Quote:
    I do not approve of the Living Campaign touching on such important matters on a worldly (Oerthly) level. Or rather, I do not mind, but let us not accept it as official, but rather as a (rather silly, in my opinion) story of a 3rd party campaign.


    That is my answer to the question. A firm opinion that will likely never change.

    I'd be Pro-Living Greyhawk Campaign if it weren't for 1 fact.

    WoTC will not officially back, nor license out official rights of Greyhawk so long as the RPGA sanctions their Living Campaign, on the premesis that they do not want other parties getting involved and writing conflictions and/or variants in regards to the RPGA's Living Greyhawk Campaign.

    So, that leaves Greyhawk with no official outlet and left in the power of a 3rd party whom doesn't have the $$$resources$$$ (and perhaps not the desire) to release official product to store shelves available to the public at large.
    Furthermore, most content for this 3rd party campaign is available to members only.
    I personally am quite involved in my home campaign and do not want to join in on another campaign, specially one where I would have to travel quite a ways away from my home to participate in.

    That pretty much is the cut and dry version of my viewpoint in regards to the RPGA's Living Campaign. For people in my situation, it happens to be slighty a bit more of a hindrance than a boon.
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    Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:22 pm  
    Woe

    Woesinger, I understand some of your argument, though I also agree Abyssilyn. A couple of points...

    1) some of us have repeatedly tried to join LG, and have found that our triad was apparently uninterested in our partcipation. I have sent the appropriate request on several occasions, and was told what I should do was find a home campaign. I did.

    2) I generally enjoy the LG concept, and think that it provides a great deal of quality resource material on a daily basis. I have greatly appreciated the news updateds and incorporate them into my campaign.

    3) If properly managed, the LG system could continue to turn out info of great value to LG and home campaigns everywhere.

    To flesh out #3.. there is currently a very interesting forum on the Next big thing in GH. I found the ideas there very interesting, if done well. However, in LG, the next big thing has hit... Atlantis rose, the dark side took over Tenh, and Anced Math the Rabid ate Dyvers (Sorry.. couldn't help that).

    I think the point of discussion on the Isles and the Ether is that they was so little bang for the buck, ( for those who could get the adventures.. for those of us relegated to Home games, we cannot even do that.) There is an enormous amount of ground between raising atlantis and the Kobold in 10x10 rooms. I think the Ghost Castle of Inverness, White Plume, and even the recent Castle Maure are examples of not necessarily Oerth Shattering experiances that can handle any party.

    I have been working for a while to integrate Epic into Greyhawk, and it is difficult to do with out raising the Isles, bringing back Vecna, etc., but it is possible to do, for me and for LG.

    I LIKE LG, and it seems to do a great job for the most part. Not a good job, a great job. If, 12 or 24 months after they retire adventures, we the non annointed could get the adventures, that would be great. If we go for 10 years with an active LG world, the 2009 Greyhawk Gazateer will (in all likelyhood) reflect LG.

    Your explinations of the machinations of LG have been helpful on many occasions, but I must confess, I do not understand (yet.. I am willing to listen) your defense of the IOW cycle. It stille seems like an action movie... cant think of a story.. add more bombs and make the villan bigger.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 28, 2004 1:24 pm  
    error

    I reread my post and saw an immediate error and unintended slight...

    Woesingers defense of LG has been well stated and straight forward. The Isle of Woe cycle is like an action movie.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:50 am  
    Re: Woe

    Anced_Math wrote:

    1) some of us have repeatedly tried to join LG, and have found that our triad was apparently uninterested in our partcipation. I have sent the appropriate request on several occasions, and was told what I should do was find a home campaign. I did.


    One of the strengths of the LG system is the regions.
    One of the weaknesses of the LG system is the regions.

    I've been a regional triad guy (Onnwal) and we have never turned folk away who were willing to work with us. Unfortunately, a triad's policy only extends to the borders of its region.

    I've heard a lot of reports of some triads snubbing or not taking seasoned GHers up on offers of help. That's regretable IMO, but it's not aan iron cast rule (I'd consider myself a rabid GHer and they just bumped me onto the Circle - the fools! muhuhuhuhahaha Wink). Also there's been some turn over in triad members and the new triad may be more receptive now.

    The only thing you should be aware of is that at this stage, four years into the campaign, a lot of the ground work has been done, plots are in motion, so there isn't the same room for blue skies creation that there was in year 1. Still there's plenty of ways you can contribute within the frame work of what already exists, if you're happy to do that. Regions need modules, triad folk will eventually retire and there'll be places for people who know their Hawk and have proved their willingness to work.

    It ain't too late...

    Paul
    LG Splintered Suns Metaregional Circle Wallah
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