I have been appalled by what I have read of LGs "shock and awe" approach to Greyhawk - Raising the Isles of Woe; fiddling with the Crook of Rao and the Flight of Fiends.
But I think LG is on to something nonetheless.
When Greyhawk next emerges from its cocoon, it is going to have to bust out with something new, interesting and different. Look at the history of the setting.
EGG gave us the basic setup and that went for years.
FtA was a deliberate attempt, good or bad, to shake things up because TSR could not just relaunch WoG with only mild changes from the EGG version. To justify the relaunch, they had to shake up WoG and went with the Greyhawk Wars.
LGG was a very mild updating or cleaning up of the setting. The worst excesses of FtA era products were cleaned up. There was some streamlining. And the WoG timeline was materially advanced in several quarters. But there was no BIG EVENT.
LGG could get away with this conservative approach because, after FtA, that was what was needed and necessary. You can't have just a succession or string of BIG EVENTS. It would look hokey. ::LG I'm looking at you::
Now, however, after LGG, if Greyhawk ever relaunches, it will need a BIG EVENT to justify the relaunch. And it can't be another war. Been there and done that with FtA. And it can't see devils and demons all over the place. Been there and done that with FtA.
So what is THE NEXT BIG THING for WoG?
LG is, maybe, sensing something of this and swinging for the fenses. Or maybe not. Point is, there will be a need for something BIG before WoG can ever hope to relaunch.
Personally, I am hoping that Dragon/Dungeon understands that they could do a Greyhawk BIG THING just as they did with the Githyanki mega-issue crossover. Revisist the setting and change it IN A BIG WAY. Bold move? Sure. Problematic? Sure. Likely to grab readers attention? Sure. Likely to sell issues to see what the fuss is about (and better if done as well as Castle Maure)? Sure. For every reason not to risk it, there is a reason to risk it. I hope they throw the dice.
Any way, so you are in charge. The Apprentice sans The Donald. You are fantasy WoG line director for WotC. You are going to relaunch Greyhawk with fanfare. What are you going to trumpet? What's your NEXT BIG THING for Greyhawk?
I'd say the invasion of the Flanaess by foreigners from a neighboring continent or the western half of their existing continent makes a lot of sense. My campaign is currently set in the era of the GH Wars, in fact the characters are just experiencing the opening salvos. My extended timeline, however (should we ever make it that far) includes a revised course of events but ultimately a truce in the war (per canon) while all sides lick their wounds. At this point, a neighboring force that has been eyeballing the conflict from afar and sensing the vulnerability of the lands of the Flanaess, swoops in and attacks!!
May be an army advancing up from the Amedio of dark-skinned wizards and mammoth barbarians; may be a horde of undead led by powerful lich-lords from the ruined lands of the west; could be something out of Blackmoor and the wastes. Who knows yet, the point is that unless you assume there's nothing going on on the entire rest of the planet (which makes no sense), the foreign presence is logical, as is the invasion in times of weakness.
I think it makes for an interesting concept, as it would force these nations that hate each other bitterly to band together just years after warring amongst themselves. For my PCs, I see a chance to do beaucoup roleplaying as emissaries who must convince the stubborn rulers of both good and evil that they need each other. And I like the idea of a new and powerful foe in the mix. Or is it an old foe (Vecna, etc...) behind the curtain after all...
First, we don't want to necessarily bury the Baklunish states, Zeif etc. A northern invasion might do this to too great an extent.
Second, the invasion needs staying power beyond the initial thust and to achieve that needs to feel organic to the setting. A negative example would be the Yuuzhan Vong invasion in the Stars Wars, New Republic Era, RPG. Yuuzhan Vong? Bless you! Here's a tissue. If that gets worse, go see a doctor. The Vongies just don't "feel" right in the Star Wars universe, IMO. In Greyhawk, the invaders would need something to make them feel right in the setting. I think you are already there, looking to the ruined civilizations of the West. The Sea of Dust has largely been ignored by GH authors. Nehli and Rhola, phone home.
Excellent post! Other ideas? _________________ GVD
Without drawing more water from the Drow well, invaders from the Sea of Dust area could be underground empires. Nothing might live in the wastes, but under it, why not? Mind Flayers, militaristic Dwarves, Aboleths, et cetera _________________ "... ,and the world was made brighter thereby."
heres something im thinking of trying since the dragon queen from dragon lance was defeated which her name escapes me at the moment
has found a portal that open up on greyhawkans sends her dragon armies of draconians to take over a country in the west then as the empire grows they send out spies and so forth to the eastern countries
Well, I'm taking a break from prepping the Isle of Dread from Dungeon to put my players' party on for awhile. They're going to end up there, ahead of a small Scarlet Brotherhood force intending to occupy the island for their own ends.
It will end up w/ the Urnst states and Iron League verse the Brotherhood for control of the Isle. This will all set up a colinazation phase for the Flaness states, taking them across the oceans and into teh jungles.
1) How about an eastern invasion aka 1492 after all the sea barons are now exploring the solnor ocean as never before perhaps they found a new settled continent and given tales of the fractured nature of the flanness...are those new ships here for trade or conquest that appear off the shattered GK coast.
2) The Mahdi of the Steppes : The paymins nomads have always been vague...according to the LGG a new mahdi has arisen among the steppes and has the loyalty of the dervish tribes tie this with the recent wars...new mahdi hearing of the persecution and growing corruption of the baklnish brothers of the west (wolf / tiger nomads) is planning a new righteous horde to cleanse the north of the unrigteous and herectical. Maybe Rary didn't flee the Steppes and Ket to simply build an empire but to escape the madhi because he committed some sacrilege in his relentless quest for power. Once holy wars start who knows where it ends.
3) The new Ilkhan of the Tiger Nomads is willing to listen to Iuz's honeyed words but isn't ready to allow the decimation of his nomadic brothers of the Wolf Nomads since the two nations were once "the brazen horde" what if a private deal is struck between Iuz and the Ilkhan...Iuz raids the Wolf Nomads until they come to the Tiger Ilkhan for aid than an offer is made to reunite the nations as a new horde under the Ilkhans leadership to defend nomadic lands, Iuz skirmishes and then backs off the Ilkhan declares victory and given the poor northern lands proposes to the Horde strikes the rich south instead. The Ilkhan has reunited the horde a nomadic dream both nations share and is hailed as a protective hero and bulwark against Iuz by the nomads and Iuz gets some breathing space to strengthen his Empire as the new nomadic onslaught diverts men and resources toward the new threat and away from him.
I like big wars and things too, but they are hit and miss. What keeps most gaming groups grounded is a good base of operations. The next big thing for GH should be a new focus on the aerdy east like was done many times for the central flanaess around GHC. Comprehensive supplements on Irongate or Rel Astra could be the launching point for further adventures and supplements. 'Ivid the Undying' going unpublished almost showed what could have been if the momentum was kept up.
Ecla - I could not agree more that Western Oerth is ripe for development. Not necessarily for an invasion but certainly for new vistas and potential conflicts to drive adventures. I my first thought is one of the Conan stories where a sorcerer from Khaitai (their China) is after Conan because he sees him as an impediment to an eventual magical conquest. Magus Yeo in one of EGGs stories runs in something of a like or parallel channel if memory serves. I would not be pleased with the Chainmail West, however.
Alarick - If Tarkhisis or whatever her name is opens a portal to WoG, I will personally beg Elminster to save Oerth. As Tarkhisis is female, and we know Elminster, I figure the two of them will go off to a demi-plane and not be heard from for some time. I'd even let Elminster borrow the keys to the Doomgrinder - chicks dig a guy with a cool car.
Crag - I'll take 1492 of the three. TheSea Barons and Lordship of the Isles, to say nothing of the Lendorians, have got to go exploriong eventually.
Mortellan - If I had to lay money, I would bet you would be close to the most likely prospect. Its the Flanaess, so no need to disrupt the status of focus or worry about tone with a move father afield. Ivid is gold waiting to be mined, while familiar to people online, few others have seen it and of those online, I doubt many have read it in its entirety (so much for a paperless future). Its waiting to be more fully exploited. If my developer or editor in chief wanted to be safe, I'd sell them this with fair assurance they would feel comfy with it and that it would also please most fans. I will say that, personally, I'd like to be more ambitious but reality is what reality is and setting that aside, I think this could be very cool. This is the kind of thing Dragon/Dungeon could do with little or no waiting. That, to me, would be perfect. It's be more perfect (perfecter?) if we added a bit of that exploration thing Crag is talking about. Just a bit. To please us malcontents. _________________ GVD
A hidden heir to the throne of the Great Kingdom has surfaced after being hidden on another plane for some time. He amasses a army of heros to liberate the two kingdoms of the Aerdy from thier tyranical leaders, over throwing them to create the Grand Republic of the Aerdy. But old foes emerge from the former capital of Rauxes, threatening to throw the whole world back into chaos.
The story takes the players from the begining of the revolt all the way to rise of the republic, to the climax where they liberate Rauxes from the mad infernal King Ivid and his hellish minions.
Will the greatest country the Oridians ever seen rise again or will it be crushed and fragmented once more?
Last edited by Herald on Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Ecla - I could not agree more that Western Oerth is ripe for development. Not necessarily for an invasion but certainly for new vistas and potential conflicts to drive adventures. I my first thought is one of the Conan stories where a sorcerer from Khaitai (their China) is after Conan because he sees him as an impediment to an eventual magical conquest. Magus Yeo in one of EGGs stories runs in something of a like or parallel channel if memory serves. I would not be pleased with the Chainmail West, however.
Yeah, Chainmail ... *shudders*
The Skip Williams Gazetteer from that old Drag Mag annual (the one with the map) has some interesting ideas: Orc empires, Japanese-like nations near the Pearl Sea. Not sure if people liked Mentzer's Aquaria but of course that is the far western coast. _________________ "... ,and the world was made brighter thereby."
Wow, what a great series of ideas. I have to say that I lean in one of three directions for the next big thing.
The next big thing for publication could be regional supplements. If they were well done, that could be awesome.
If we are discussing the next events in the WOG itself, I have two views. One, I have not yet had enough game time to explore the stuff that has been published since WOTC took over. The last 4 years of my campaign has taken place in 4 hexes in Farvale, near Hochoch. So, I like the idea of a next big thing, but maybe in 650 CY or 700CY. Of course this is completely self serving, but it would work for me.
However, rather than a continent spaning event, I would like to see the Republic of Aerdy, or other regional events elevated. After all we have only had two world shaking events (Twin Cataclysms & GH Wars) in the last 2000 years, and that is probably enough for a while. Supplements similar to (though larger) than the Scarlet Brotherhood or Geoff.
I know that in the past my group has lost track of how powerful we actually are. In one campaign on the wild coast, we felt we needed Oerth Shattering events to entertain our 17th level characters. But the enterprising DM took a dragon and about 5,000 orcs and taught us different. My point is that, with a little work, I think Regional offerings could provide as much adventure as FTA or the GH Wars ever did, without changing everything.
If they choose the invasion route, I vote for Dragons. Dungeons and DRAGONS. Not invading actually, but spending the last 2000 years planning to take over... Idee, or Bissel, or somewhere. Maybe it is good dragons, who have decided that the Huminoids are incapable of self government. Bet that would stick in the average Paladin's Craw.
Think of all the symbolism associated with Dragons. How many would flock the banner of an ancient silver or gold dragon, come to set all right? Iuz would pay attention, particularly if the old Wyrm claimed to represent a council.
What if the Evil Dragons also rallied, but couldn't agree on a leadership structure, or were not prepared the way the Silvers had been preparing. The Armies of the Silver Wyrm might not roll to victory over Iuz and Pomarj, but be stalemated. Now you have some real roleplaying for those armies of light. The righteous are always happy with their doctrine, so long as they are imposing it on others. They get a little upset when others are imposing it on them, even if it is exactly what they were spouting 10 minutes before.
This could happen in just one area, but it would cause ripples everywhere. The King of Keoland would have to take notice if a Great Silver Wyrm took over Veluna and began a crusade against Iuz. He would have to ask himself.. Where will the dragons go next?
Sorry about the ramble, I just got a little caught up.
Perhaps we should have a postfest on a regional campaign like the revolution of Aredy. Here is what I purpose.
The design of a game like the Revolution of Aredy is tricky. If handled incorrectly, it will seem like a railroad adventure and we all know how people feel about that. But we do want players to feel like they are part of a larger picture.
So to make the project work I would suggest the following.
1) Adventures would take players from 1-20.Players shouldn’t advance more than 1 or 2 levels in an adventure “module”. To give players the feel like they aren’t railroaded, redundant adventures should be created to give them a choice as to how to proceed. Do you try and help the resistance in Onwall take care of a Hexator menace or do you delve into an ancient crypt in Medegia to recover lost magical weapons to equip the armies of the righteous revolution. What ever choice is made, someone else will pickup the other choice and forward the story line somehow.
2) Characters of alignments that might no otherwise get along, can find common ground because they are working on a goal that they can support. Lawful types will be working to create a stable government where the rule of law is evenhanded. Chaotic types will work towards creating a country where people are more free to live the life that they want knowing that they two have a voice in their country. Good characters will know that they will have a shield against tyranny. (Evil characters might even get in on the act as the see a chance to get out from under the thumb of the oppressive tyrants that rule them, and strike revenge upon them for the first and deadly last time.)
3) The heroes should be able to advise and meet the powerful NPCs, instead of the other way around. NPCs should ask them for help and have a clear reason to ask for that help.
4) There would be little treasure for this campaign. Money might be a reason to adventure in this campaign, but that treasure is given over and spent on the cause. Players are trying to build a better future for themselves and their country. The Heroes will be rewarded at the end, with titles, land and fame. The cause will also make sure that they are equipped to handle challenges. But players should always feel that they have to travel light, budget well and fell like they may not have just enough to cover the problem they face.
5) The Humans can’t go it alone. The Republic that will rise will be mostly made up of Humans, but it will also include Elves, Gnomes, Dwarves, Halflings and perhaps even …orcs! The revolution will require many sources of help and also require alliances. The chances for roleplaying mixed with challenges offers player to think outside of the box.
6) As a sort of tie in, some battles could be played out with the miniatures handbook rules. The battles that happen should be tough, and mixed with the magical flare that Greyhawk has. Think Dragonlance without Dragons and Draconians, and then add the greyness that Gygax made so well. Throw in those wild cards like the Scarlet Brotherhood or even the Slavers and I think you have the idea.
7) The Boogie men of the whole thing should be From Rauxes. Hellish agents are trying to drag the world into their hellish control. They have been planning to pit the two Aredy Kingdoms against each other and were going to be successful until this revolution got started. When their plans go wrong, they will want revenge and will strike hard. The last 3rd or 4th of the story should show how bad they can be and the climax, the “Siege of Rauxes” should be a 20th level and above adventure.
If anyone is interested in doing this as a combined effort. Let me know. Maybe LG will want to pick this up. Who can tell.
I would love to do something like this, though maybe as second series to what you are doing. My game is focused in Gran March, and we have had no interaction with Aerdy. However, the whole concept is awesome, and I would love to do it.
However, I think we should shrink the scope. People with armies operate on the scale you are talking about. Lets do something more realistic at first... the characters are part of a small movement wanting to remove the evil local lord. This scale should be good for levels 1 to 8.
Then they hook up with a movement wanting to overthrow the whole that was the South Province. This should take them from 9-17th.
Then they actually get involved in politics on a regional stage, and this takes them from 18th to 25th.
I suggest this based on my contention (present in many other threads) that a 20+ level character, or group of characters affect world politics a lot less than one good army.
As I stated before, there should be many adventures, 10 would be a good start. and no module should take player beyond a 1or two levels.
The ideas that you propose work in that very same concept. But they are also part of a bigger movement at the same time. So there are other events that that effect the over all work as well.
Funny you should mention a "revolution" in the Great Kingdom theme. Back in the 80's I DM'ed an adventure with this topic for my gaming group.
The premise was that when the House of Naelix became ascendant the preceeding house had an heir to the throne which was too young to rule. House Naelix managed to assasinate all pretenders to the throne, but one did escape.....
Many years passed, the old house passed into history and the Ivid's came to power as we all know. During all this time that the bloodline of that lone survivor continued as this seed bides it time to bloom.
The era when my players lived was that time....
My group could be considered "high level" for 1E (they were average 12th level or so, quite an accomplishment back then) and had become renown in their region (we played in the Ulek/wild coast region). One of the PC's had an interesting background which had never come up before. He was from the Great Kingdom, son of an eminent priest.....
..of Hextor!
He fled that region of the flanness trying to leave behind the wickedness of his parent. I used that as a hook to contact him and thus his party by the group of people whom protected the secret of the heir. Playing to his patriotic side and the longing for turning the tide of evil to the other party members they journey to the Great Kingdom and meet the heir....
They meet the heir, a strapping young man with the unassuming name of Andrew of Pontvylier (true name to be revealed later). He is a man of presence, character, moral rectitude.... a true king.
This is of course one MAJOR problem. Anyone could claim to be an heir, but how to prove it beyond a doubt to which point would rally to his banner?
There was one solution all but forgotten....
The kings of Aerdy were, once, warrior-kings and before the symbol of the malachite throne, they had a more martial symbol...
The sword of kings... (cliche, I know, but it was the eighties... )
The sword had one quality that was unique and irrefutable....
...only one of royal blood could wield it and make manifest its powers.
No one knows what those powers are beyond mere speculation...
..and worse, no one know WHERE it is!
Thus come in the party. Learning all they can about the swords history and last known whereabouts they quest for it.
A long adventure (a couple of years of real time) which involves a undersea adventure (under the Solnor ocean and tangling with a sauhuagin empire down there) they retrieve the sword.
Of course things just dont end there. The king to be now needs to assemble an army, make alliances and thwart counterplots, all gargantuan tasks in which the PC's were major players.
With the help of Nyrond, Almor, the Iron League and Furyondy armies were raised and slowly, but ineroxably they pushed toward Ruaxes and laid sige.
The final encounter was of course the party "hit squad" infiltrating the palace with the would be king and sword in an all or nothing bid to settle all accounts. After a ferious battle and many dead on both sides, Ivid is cornered and destroyed.
To the balcony of the palace appears KING Andrew Aurumrex (The Golden King), with the sword of kings in one hand and the head of Ivid in the other. The sword mainfest a golden aura around the king showing he is a chosen of Hieroneous (in fact a PALADIN) and true king of the Empire.
While momentous in extreme, it wasn't the end. Nearly two years later, the new king is poisoned by Hextor die-hards and the great kingdom is plunged into civil war... but thats another story.
So, you want to re-launch Greyhawk? How do they do it in such a way that will bring people to the table to dine on the results? You've got to hit them with something they want; something that really hasn't been done before or even recently for Greyhawk.
Most people are of the opinion now (and even way back when) that Greyhawk is/was the hobbyist /gamer's campaign. Not a lot of concrete info is/was available for the setting so you had to do it yourself. The basic framework was there, but the rest was up to you(unlike the Forgotten Realms which pumped out such a deluge of products and in enough detail that you knew how many piercings the Mistress of Pain's high priest had and where they were located on his body!!! ).
People like two things in the main, other than the core setting book, and this is exemplified by the products that are released for other campaign worlds. These two products are adventures set in the campaign world and geographical sourcebooks(that also contain info on the local powers/organizations).
Lets touch on the core product first though, the core setting book. First off, it has to have a state of the art, slightly more detailed map within the back cover (I'd also make this available for download on the company website for anybody who wanted to download it and have it printed out and laminated full size- some people don't like folded maps. This is just a nice gesture on the part of the company for the people who make it all happen for them- the fans(ie. customers).
The content would include the regular general overview of the lands (similar to LGG) but nothing too detailed, as this book is meant to be more of an introduction to the World of Greyhawk. The book would also contain Greyhawk specific feats. I'd include regional feats and languages, and some languages would be bonuses for some areas. For example, characters from Zeif would speak Common and receive Baklunish as a bonus language at the start. i'd include these types of things for nearly all of the nations. Characters from the Bandit kingdoms might gain Mercenary's Cant as a bonus. Thieves' Cant and other secret languages would return as well. These simple things add a bit of flair with giving undo bonuses to characters.
Next would be Greyhawk specific prestige classes. Examples of these would be Knight of the Hart, Gnarley Forest Ranger, Thieves Guild Member, Mages Guild Member, etc. These prestige classes would focus on regions and organizations most often played as characters (no evil prestige classes generally- that comes later on ).
An all-inclusive section on the Greyhawk pantheon would be next. No avatar stats, just the domains, holy days, priest garb, and a basic description of what each religion is about. Deity specific special spells would make a return as well. They might be in deity specific domains instead or as variant spells that replace spells currently in one of the domains if they contradict the deity’s tenets (yes, clerics of Wee Jas won't be casting animate dead!).
Next we have a section on one of the things that has really defined Greyhawk in many people minds, regardless of the campaign world they play in: named spells. Realms mages might not know who Melf is, but they sure do love his Melf's Acid Arrow spell! A basic round up of Pages from the Mages would be included here, plus a few new ones as well from everyone's favorite wizards.
The next section would cover all of the unique cleric spells of the Greyhawk faiths, with a few new ones as well to help flesh out some of the largely ignored faiths.
The next section would be Magic items of Greyhawk. This is pretty self-explanatory. The section would include unique items, as well as artifacts both major and minor.
The final section would be Monsters of Greyhawk. The choices for this section would be made by looking over all past Dungeons & Dragons products (mainly adventures) and seeing which monsters have not already been published elsewhere. Whatever remained would go here. A few new ones would be introduces as well.
This would all be topped off by a robust index. Also, the table of contents would include sub-sections of the basic sections in some cases as well, for ease of locating information. I would also do something which makes finding the beginnings of sections even more easy- color coding the outside edges of the pages by section. These are simple things that make the ease of use that much better. I would do this with all books in the series.
I’ll end this post here. The next one goes into what could be done with the other two most wanted products: adventures and sourcebooks.
---Cebrion _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Next are adventures set in the campaign world and sourcebooks. I’ll start first with sourcebooks, because you’ve got to know about where you are before you can write an adventure taking place in that area.
Sourcebooks would follow a standard format, such that each section of each book would be in the same order. Once you are familiar with one sourcebook layout, you will be familiar with all future sourcebook layouts. Nothing is more irritating that to see a lack of continuity in this aspect of a product line (ex. Npc’s are covered in the last 10 pages of this book, on pages 30 to 40 of this 140 page book, and on pages 80 to 90 in this 140 page book). Simply maintain an orderly format and stick to it. Sourcebooks would be quality soft covers along the lines of the soft cover Forgotten Realms sourcebooks. I’d prefer about 2/3 of the book to be campaign-impacting background material (stories, organizations and their motives, etc.) and the other 1/3 to be game-impacting material (npc’s stats from organizations, special prestige classes, unique magic items and spells, monsters, etc.). That is step one.
Step two is to lay out the guts of the sourcebook. That is to say, things other than the introduction, table of contents, and various bits of cool fluff that appears throughout the book. First would be an overview of the lands, but in much more detail than is contained in the core World of Greyhawk book. Next would be a section on the rulers/factions of each section of the lands covered in the book, including motivations/goals for said rulers/factions and stats for the most prominent individuals. Prestige classes specific to organizations not generally open to player characters in most DM’s campaigns, but that will often be encountered as NPC antagonists, will be presented here as well(such as Monk of the Scarlet Sign, or Doom Dreamer of Tharizdun- you get the idea). Adventure ideas, hooks, and locations would be included as well. That would pretty much take up most of the sourcebook.
I would aim at doing five sourcebooks: central region, southwest region, northwest region, southeast region, northeast region. Each sourcebook would contain two maps. One would be a full page World of Greyhawk map in muted color, with the area covered in the sourcebook outlined in red and the area itself in full glorious color, a sort of “areas covered by this sourcebook” page at a glance which would be located near the beginning of the book. The second map would simply be a blown up version of this map in fold -out form inserted in the back cover, though this larger version of the map would contain many more details on locations in the various lands and would not show the whole world map, just the region covered in the sourcebook (imagine cropping the red outlined areas on the first map, blowing it up, and then adding detailed names/locations to it).
And lastly, the adventures set in the campaign world.
I’ve always though that while people like one off adventures, they really like module series. The recent “Top Adventures of all Time” (or whatever the article was called) in the latest Dungeon magazine seems to back me up as well. Each year I’d shoot for releasing six adventure modules. Three would be individual stand-alone adventures. The other three would be a module series organized along the lines of the classic module series we all know and love. Module series would center more on epic quests and kingdom-shaking events, while individual modules would focus more on fantastical adventures and adventures that take place in exotic locales. This would not necessarily be a hard and fast rule- there might be a module series set in a fantastical and exotic locale or a single module that focuses on a pivotal event. It all depends on how expansive the adventure would be and which form would be best suited to the adventure.
I think that about covers it all. But a final few words need to be said regarding the release schedule of these products. So here it is:
2005/2006/2007 release schedule
2005:
October- product adverts intensify, small section previews in the October Dragon magazine.
November- November Dragon presents a sneak peak at some the World of Greyhawk’s campaign book contents.
December- World of Greyhawk campaign setting book released early in the month in time for holiday shopping. Totally revamped City of Greyhawk map appears in the December Dungeon magazine, along with articles on said city and the standard 3 adventures set in and around its environs.
2006:
January- stand alone adventure
February- The City of Greyhawk and the Central Flaness sourcebook #1
March- part 1 of 3 module series
April- stand alone adventure
May- The Kingdom of Keoland and the Southwestern Flaness sourcebook #2
June- part 2 of 3 module series
July- stand alone adventure
August- The Great Kingdom and the Southeastern Flaness sourcebook #3
September- part 3 of 3 module series
October- stand alone adventure
November- The Barbarian Lands and the Northeastern Flaness sourcebook #4
December- part 1 of new 3 module series
2007:
January- stand alone adventure
February- The Baklunish Lands and the Northwestern Flaness sourcebook #5
March- part 2 of new 3 module series
April- stand alone module
May- ???
June- part 3 of new 3 module series
I like the release schedule in that it follows a set pattern. You will always know what type of product is coming out and when. Nothing ever goes smoothly though in design and production though, so as a general guideline I think this is a very good schedule of releases from both retailer and customer points of view. The 3-part modules might be better grouped more closely together though. With regards to the releases of particular sourcebooks, I think #’s 1 and 5 should be arranged as they are in the schedule for various reasons; the order of the others could be changed easily enough to suit the general demand for the regions(web site polls anyone???).
My thanks/condolences go to anyone who fully plodded through my ramblings.
----Cebrion _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Oct 13, 2004 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
I like the schedule and format you suggest. You only have two hurdles... first, you need to get in touch with WOTC. Second, you have to get people to buy it.
I think that you may find the second one more difficult than the first. Or actually, if you can solve the second, the first will take care of itself. You may have noticed all the rants about the cost of 3ed books, paper, etc. They are prominent in several places on the internet, how WOTC is trying to make us upgrade to 3ed and 3.5 ed., and to heck with them we are still going to play whatever edition. There have been a few such rants here at Canon Fire, though the Admins correctly frown upon such.
Now, do not get me wrong, if you like an older edition over 3 or 3.5, more power to you. The objective is to have fun. But if people refuse to upgrade because they have to buy a few new books, then it makes little sense for WOTC to produce stuff for us GH fans.
I will point to the recent venom spewed at Dungeon. I understand that some people do not like what has been printed in the past, but look at the deal you are getting... $36.00 for 12 issues, each with two, three, or four adventures. Don't like the adventure, tear out the map and use it for something else for pete sake. A single module (Ghost Tower of Inverness for example) was what, $14.95 in 1983!!! And Dungeon is delivered to my door, a nice feature with my busy schedule.
I have high hopes that a release schedule such as you describe might someday come to fruition. However, the reality is, as long as WOTC believes that Forgotten Realms will sell better than WOGH, then that is what they will publish. For my part, I will buy at least one copy of everything GH they publish; just keep the quality up.
Every time someone screams because they have to spend a little on new stuff, I have to wonder, what do you spend in Beer ? If you are like me, my beer budget (well at least until marriage and kids) would have supported Gary, TSR and the whole shebang. Maybe you don't Drink, what about Pizza. I love the game, and have no problem spending a little to maintain one of my favorite hobbies.
You know what we need, a poll. How much would you spend per item and monthy on new GH releases. HEY ABYSSLYN, HOW MANY MEMBERS DO WE HAVE NOW? Lets Herd them All to a POLL and find out, can WOTC profitably release GH material.
You put forth some fairly pertinent questions for a poll there. I'd be very interested in the results. I'd make that poll front and center in HUGE font on the main page though; not small regular print in the margin where most people just won't either notice or give it much thought. Give it some prominence and people will be more likely to actually take part in the poll. Regarding the products I proposed, I'd set the Core book at $39.95(320 pages, hardcover), and the supplemental Gazetteers at $29.95(200 pages, soft cover). The adventures would be set at $12.95(44 pages). I'm a realist; price points are important too. I can't just look at things from a frothing fan point of view. The business aspect is really the main concern- is Greyhawk viable? I believe it is. The question most often asked of me is, other than "What is coming out next?” is not "When is the next Forgotten Realms release?" or "When is the next Eberron release?", but rather "Are they ever going release anything else for Greyhawk?” That is the local reality for me. I don't have many answers for these people at the moment, other than to point them to Dungeon's recent articles/adventures or to svgames to get the old skool stuff and convert it to the new edition.
As to getting in touch with WOTC, if Erik or Gary H. can't pass something along (if they even deem it to have enough merit or even the possibility of being taken seriously), then an unknown, such as myself, isn't really going to be taken seriously at face value.
To have something like that happen, I'd have present most of the work in completed form and then, on top of it all, win a contest!
It’s a large project and, being unable to meet my own furious deadlines by myself, I'd have to put together a team of extraordinary magnitude.
(Normally this would be where I'd post my choices for the LoEG, complete with pseudonyms, but I don't quite know everyone well enough here to start joking about them just yet. ). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I think that you are quite right about the price points. And you are correct, it would be difficult for just anyone to take something to WOTC. I am looking over WOTC and HASBRO's financials, and I find it interesting that the WOTC site lists, under customer service "Dungeons & Dragons/ Forgotten Realms."
Back to the financials, Hasbro took in 3.1 billion last year. They spent $143 million on research and development. Their markets, and WOTC, seem to be things that can be sold in mulitple language markets, particularly Japan. Remember, despite years of recession, the average standard of living and the size of the overall market remains the 2nd largest HOMOGENOUS language market. Europe is larger, but that requires 12 or 14 translations for a text based game.
So, what is the future of GH as far as publishing? Well, FR obviously has a hold on the company. This maybe because it is established in the company, if not in the marketplace. I would love to see some numbers on how much FR sells per issuance. As it stands though, if 5,000 members of CF bought $30 of material per month, for one year, this would generate $150,000 per month, 1.8m annually. My guess is that HAS/WOTC need to Quadruple this figure. Therefore, the entire process gets sketchy.
Obviously we are treading into areas out of which many people make careers, but my guess is that unless a lot more GH fans can be dug up (100k would be a nice start) it is going to be tough. Now, in a fairly recent article about subscriptions, [url]http://www.silven.com/adnd.asp?case=show&id=391 Matt Senet talked about subscriptions being at approx 30K with a total circulation for Dragon being at 60K. If this is true, and they are getting $30+/- per circulant, then they are bringing in $1.8 million per year? This seems awfully low, but then there is ad revenue, and it is a forum for WOTC to advertise new products.
So, my guess is that GH would have to supplant FR, in order to become a staple again at WOTC. This requires that those who REALLY like GH to start getting motivated, and those who like to whine about $39 books to keep quiet.
Not going to happen. A much more likely scenerio is that the setting gets bought out by someone who can fund a few years operating, and bring it back to full force. The internal investment and restructuring is probably just too high at WOTC.
My guess is, that there are a number of people at WOTC who like or love GH. However, they like that paycheck on Fridays even more. So they, being reasonable D&D players, buy what feeds them.
While we, as GH lovers would love to see new publications, the odds are slim in anything other than a rehashing of the existing. I don't think it make economic sense without real strides. I have seen some amazing analytical and cognative ability on this site. Maybe a few of us should turn this on the true future of GH, the economic future.
ABYSSLYN, HOW ABOUT THIS AS A POLL QUESTION... How much would you invest in a company set up to buy out GH and start publishing the products in a seperate. [/url]
I think that you are quite right about the price points. And you are correct, it would be difficult for just anyone to take something to WOTC. I am looking over WOTC and HASBRO's financials, and I find it interesting that the WOTC site lists, under customer service "Dungeons & Dragons/ Forgotten Realms."
Back to the financials, Hasbro took in 3.1 billion last year. They spent $143 million on research and development. Their markets, and WOTC, seem to be things that can be sold in mulitple language markets, particularly Japan. Remember, despite years of recession, the average standard of living and the size of the overall market remains the 2nd largest HOMOGENOUS language market. Europe is larger, but that requires 12 or 14 translations for a text based game.
So, what is the future of GH as far as publishing? Well, FR obviously has a hold on the company. This maybe because it is established in the company, if not in the marketplace. I would love to see some numbers on how much FR sells per issuance. As it stands though, if 5,000 members of CF bought $30 of material per month, for one year, this would generate $150,000 per month, 1.8m annually. My guess is that HAS/WOTC need to Quadruple this figure. Therefore, the entire process gets sketchy.
Obviously we are treading into areas out of which many people make careers, but my guess is that unless a lot more GH fans can be dug up (100k would be a nice start) it is going to be tough. Now, in a fairly recent article about subscriptions, [url]http://www.silven.com/adnd.asp?case=show&id=391 Matt Senet talked about subscriptions being at approx 30K with a total circulation for Dragon being at 60K. If this is true, and they are getting $30+/- per circulant, then they are bringing in $1.8 million per year? This seems awfully low, but then there is ad revenue, and it is a forum for WOTC to advertise new products.
So, my guess is that GH would have to supplant FR, in order to become a staple again at WOTC. This requires that those who REALLY like GH to start getting motivated, and those who like to whine about $39 books to keep quiet.
Not going to happen. A much more likely scenerio is that the setting gets bought out by someone who can fund a few years operating, and bring it back to full force. The internal investment and restructuring is probably just too high at WOTC.
My guess is, that there are a number of people at WOTC who like or love GH. However, they like that paycheck on Fridays even more. So they, being reasonable D&D players, buy what feeds them.
While we, as GH lovers would love to see new publications, the odds are slim in anything other than a rehashing of the existing. I don't think it make economic sense without real strides. I have seen some amazing analytical and cognative ability on this site. Maybe a few of us should turn this on the true future of GH, the economic future.
ABYSSLYN, HOW ABOUT THIS AS A POLL QUESTION... How much would you invest in a company set up to buy out GH and start publishing the products in a seperate. [/url][url][/url]
An interesting analysis AM, but I have a funny feeling that HAS would never (at least) fully sell the GREYHAWK brand, mainly because of the fact that the WOG is the "base" to the current edition of the game. Hasbro would be taking a chance if other companies produced material that is in their books. My guess is that it doesn't matter how much GH fans spend, GH will stay with Hasbro until the next edition of the game when WOG is gone from the books... at least IMO.
.........................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
My guess is that it doesn't matter how much GH fans spend, GH will stay with Hasbro until the next edition of the game when WOG is gone from the books... at least IMO.
.........................Omote
FPQ
I agree with this analysis.
Hasbro will not sell or license a "going concern" but will only sell or license something that is not being put to use or that is not seen as productive in any way. My sense is that this is how Ravenloft got licensed to White Wolf/SSStudios.
This raises an interesting possibility. 4th Ed comes out. GH is again "dead." A third party d20 publisher (or successor if there is a 4th Ed OGL) picks up the GH license because the money it can make is sufficient for their investment/margins. GH by Bastion Press? GH by Green Ronin? GH by Malhavoc? GH by Mongoose? Interesting possibilities. _________________ GVD
Another concern regarding this is that the OGL might be killed off when 4th edition rolls around. It wouldn't surprise me. It would be the dot.com crash of the D&D product industry. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Well, first off, everyone should know that I am not a publisher, and know little about the industry. So, my down and dirty on the feasiblity of GH products could be far off the mark.
However, as to a few specific points:
Neopets are cheap to make, they can be sold on any continent, to any market without changing anything. The purchasers will often buy many (a dozen, say) and all HAS had to do was change the color of the plastic.
That is a distinctly different business model. And who wants support for a Neopet? Neopets don't need internal consistency with text 30 years old. (see posts of crook of Rao). And they are neither loved nor hated like D&D settings. The market is 12-13 yr olds, who have forgotten them by the time they are 14.
As to WOTC letting GH go before 4th ed., I think you are right on the mark Omote, it won't happen. I was just looking at the feasiblity of new GH products from WOTC. I think the possibilities are slim, unless they go through some world changing events like the Greyhawk Wars, and I am not sure that I want that.
I cannot imagine they will get rid of the OGL in 4th ed. If they do, I think you will find that most of the world (me included) will stay with 3rd. I like too much of what the third parties have done. In some ways, WOTC is playing catchup (particularly with the Complete Guides IMO). I think that the OGL is the single best change that WOTC made. I also do not believe that TSR or anyone but a conglomerate such as HAS/WOTC would have ever done such a thing.
GH by Bastion Press? GH by Green Ronin? GH by Malhavoc? GH by Mongoose?
Yikes, some of those scare me.
Add in Necromancer and Troll Lord, and I'll still take Mongoose, though.
Mongoose scares me, but they and Troll Lord would be the most likely.
Necromancer would be interesting but unlikely.
Green Ronin would be interesting and marginally possible.
I doubt Malhavoc would bother.
I cannot imagine they will get rid of the OGL in 4th ed. If they do, I think you will find that most of the world (me included) will stay with 3rd. I like too much of what the third parties have done. In some ways, WOTC is playing catchup (particularly with the Complete Guides IMO). I think that the OGL is the single best change that WOTC made. I also do not believe that TSR or anyone but a conglomerate such as HAS/WOTC would have ever done such a thing.
I think you're right about the OGL. If they advance D&D to 4th edition, but don't OGL it, the d20 industry will launch the biggest push you've ever seen to make -some- set of OGL core rules the new standard in gaming. I'd expect to see Mongoose, AEG, Green Ronin, SSS (including Necromancer & Malhavok), and Troll Lords in the forefront of this. Remember folks, the OGL is forever. WotC -can't- rescind it.
Also, didn't the OGL happen strictly under WotC? Hasbro acquired WotC afterwards.
I don't repost but instead post links to encourage interchange between the Canonfire and Wizards' Greyhawk fora. Shortly I'll respond to the "Libraries" thread here and attempt to post links to the similar thread at Wizards' website.
This is a repost of a response in another thread, the two of which have been somewhat intertwined.
I think we have crossed over threads here, but I think your analysis, ESILV is correct. The problem for WOTC/HAS is that P&P Roleplaying, and GH in particular is just not profitable enough.
I think that it is a good bet that a) WOTC will not do much more with GH; b) there will be a 4th Ed., and FR will be the core system; c) WOTC will be very reluctant to let GH go, but probably will eventually, because letting it sit on the shelf only degrades the fan base, and thus the value.
This will take a long time to play out, several years at least. That is fine with me though, I think I need say, 5 more years to finish up with what I have now. I do not want a cataclysmic event that I have to incorporate; I doubt that WOTC would even consider any other sort of launch.
I think that the selling of GH to a dedicated Roleplaying company, and LG with it, would be the best thing that could happen. It would have to be a company that is strong on story... the mechanics will take care of themselves as long as the OGL is out there; if they concentrate on story, then it won't matter which edition is played. It will matter that we the fans purchase though.
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Other ideas?
).
is trying to make us upgrade to 3ed and 3.5 ed., and to heck with them we are still going to play whatever edition. There have been a few such rants here at Canon Fire, though the Admins correctly frown upon such.
