Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Going through T1-4 as a evil party?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Going through T1-4 as a evil party?
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:49 am  
    Going through T1-4 as a evil party?

    I am running a mostly LE party through the T 1-4 adventure and was wondering if I could do it as more of a evil politics type adventure where the various factions try to get the players to join their factions, or try to get the players to work against each other. So far they have been trying to get evil humanoids trying to join them but I am thinking of adding a priest of IUZ to the party as NPC to try to further the old ones goals. Seems to me that as a DM there is a few different plot lines that I can add due to this not being the standard Good adventuring party. Any good ideas or experiences would be great regarding this as this is the first time I have DMed a evil aligned party in over 30 years.
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:45 pm  

    First, your party needs to determine what their goals are - individually and as a group. Are they serving an evil deity that is opposed to Iuz and Tzuggtmoy gaining power in the Flanaess? Are they seeking to destroy Chaos and establish their own base of power for future conquests in the area? Are they simply treasure-seekers who consider the Chaotic Evil of the Temple a stepping stone to be crushed and looted for greater personal power?

    Second, adding a priest of Iuz seems to be counter-productive. Iuz is CE and wants the ToEE to be successful. Any cleric of Iuz would work to get the party to join a temple faction and help it grow more powerful. That would take the adventure in a completely different direction.

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:13 am  

    They are for sure more raiding the Temple for treasure and trying to start their own power base. The Half-Orc fighter has built and opened up a weaponsmithing business in Hommlet as a front to their raids into the temple. The thief is neutral and skimming treasure for his own personal wealth. The Dwarf Priest worships the Dwarf God of greed and charges party members a fee for healing and the Necromancer is trying to raise a undead army take a brunt of the damage force but has been able to only raise 2 giant rats so far. Happy The human fighter is a dumb Ox that roll a 18 00 for his strength but not very wise or bright he lacks the Half-Orcs cunning. It is a interest group I warned my son and his friends that if you play the characters correctly that you may see the party fall apart. Evil
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:14 am  

    They are for sure more raiding the Temple for treasure and trying to start their own power base. The Half-Orc fighter has built and opened up a weaponsmithing business in Hommlet as a front to their raids into the temple. The thief is neutral and skimming treasure for his own personal wealth. The Dwarf Priest worships the Dwarf God of greed and charges party members a fee for healing and the Necromancer is trying to raise a undead army take a brunt of the damage force but has been able to only raise 2 giant rats so far. Happy The human fighter is a dumb Ox that roll a 18 00 for his strength but not very wise or bright he lacks the Half-Orcs cunning. It is a interest group I warned my son and his friends that if you play the characters correctly that you may see the party fall apart. Evil
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:32 am  

    I agree with SirXaris about the cleric of Iuz not being a good NPC to work with the party. However, after reading the description of the party, it seems you can still insinuate an appropriate NPC of your design to help you maneuver the party as you see fit. Since the party is of mixed alignment between true neutrals and evil, any of those alignments could work for your NPC. There are plenty of Evil faiths that would actively work against Iuz, and I personally appreciate the non-traditional "Evil vs Evil" or "Good vs Good" adventure plotlines.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:06 am  

    Another cool thing is them trying to stay under the radar while they are in Hommlet as not to be discovered by the Good aligned NPCs. Elmo the ranger is keeping an eye on them but they have not done anything wrong well in Hommlet. They also survived a assassination attempt in the Inn from the 10th level assassin from the Temple so they actually have some towns people on their side. Like I said it seems to be a different sort of adventure and I was worried about a Evil party because of the discord.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 15, 2010
    Posts: 49


    Send private message
    Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:11 am  

    First two groups that come to mind with evil organizations out to thwart Iuz or keep him in check were the Hierarchs and/or the SB.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:01 am  

    Perfect thanks for the ideas I think a Scarlett Brotherhood Enchantress with her "slave" ie a Assassin or monk in disguise will work. love have Pcs as pawns!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:04 pm  

    Update on running my son and his friends through this adventure. They have 3 nodes left to go all are sitting 7th or 8th level. The main issue they are having is getting any help with raising of the Characters as their Priest is a speciality Priest of Syrul and does not have access to raise dead even when he gets a bump to 9th from a Book of Vile Darkness. Also playing this with 2nd Edition the Black Dragons in the Earth Node proved to be very tough. Also noticed that they do not work together very well as they all have their own reasons to be taking on the Temple. Iuz made a appearance but St Cuthbert countered that by appearing as well and with the Characters being Evil he did not raise their dead.

    Almost done so not sure what they will tackle next. I am thinking trekking them to the Yatils!!!
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:45 am  

    My first suggestion is to let them suffer the consequences of playing evil characters.

    Being evil frees them to act anyway they wish, but serving an evil deity comes with a price - once you're dead, you're dead.

    Alternatively, you can provide them a side trek where they raid a temple of Pelor/Rao/etc. and hold parishioners hostage to force the head cleric of that temple (9th level or higher) to cast a Raise Dead spell on their dead friend(s).

    Sounds like it's a fun campaign. Smile

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:30 pm  

    Certain Evil Powers might permit the Raising of the dead, particularly those that don't have a strong tie with the undead. I could see priests of Hextor allowing it, especially for their own champions of evil, and perhaps even Erythnul. However, those like Iuz, Nerull, and Incabulos...no way. The dead are Animated, NOT Raised.

    If you really wanna mess with their heads, have one of those latter three priesthoods claim such a feat, but have the PC raised as an Undead creature of YOUR choice (commensurate with the power of the priest in question), and under YOUR control as an NPC (unless you would permit a PC wraith, shadow, mummy, whatever)!!!

    Evil Grin

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:36 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Alternatively, you can provide them a side trek where they raid a temple of Pelor/Rao/etc. and hold parishioners hostage to force the head cleric of that temple (9th level or higher) to cast a Raise Dead spell on their dead friend(s).


    More likely, they should raid the temple and steal a scroll of raise dead or a rod of resurrection. A priest is a direct conduit to the deity, and the deity can simply refuse to grant the power when it is being coerced. Items like scrolls and rods are not direct conduits, but function more like "batteries" of stored power that can be used by anyone. Such items would be highly sought after by those who are are not usually granted those powers.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:50 pm  

    I agree with Cebrion on this. A priest is held directly responsible, as it were, for the use of spells, and only minor ones (1st and 2nd lvl) can be called upon without direct intervention from the Powers. Something like Raise Dead requires the direct involvement of the Power.

    How would the good clerics know the evil-doers would even uphold their word rather than merely slaughter those held hostage? Of course, maybe they don't. Interesting negotiations and role-play could ensue.

    I suppose if the hostage were REALLY important to the faith in question, the Power might permit it (Pelor, for instance, may consider the loss of many innocent lives unacceptable compared to the one restored life of an evil-doer), but for sure the clerics would call the equivalent to a crusade against your evil players to make them suffer for their transgressions. Of course, this could lead to some really interesting role-play and a constant source of adventure!

    -Lanthorn


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:07 pm  

    Well, LE characters in this example of holding hostages to get a priest of Pelor to raise their ally, should keep their end of the agreement. Unless, of course, they can find a loophole. After all, the L stands for Lawful.
    I've always imagined LE types, at least the more intelligent ones, very much like crooked lawyers, who will find every little loophole in a contract, that others may have missed. But, in the absence of these loopholes, they will, even if reluctantly, fulfill their part of an agreement. Seems to me this would be a simple one, with no loopholes. "Raise our comrade here and nobody else has to die!"

    Still, assuming that all goes to plan, nothing says the priesthood of Pelor won't declare them enemies and place a bounty on them.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:41 pm  

    There is no reason why the deity could not also pour a little extra magic into the raise dead, if they do allow it to work. A nice little side dish of slow onset bestow curse, bestow disease, bestow blindness, and bestow deafness wouldn't be out of place... Laughing
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:23 pm  

    I really like the "Bestow Curse" aspect! It would be subtle, without any overt side effects.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:09 pm  

    Yes, I didn't mean to imply that it was a cut and dried option.

    Characters in a fantasy Medieval setting might not have all the same moral bases that we, in the modern era, have to consider from. It would make for a good role-playing situation for a group of LE PCs for all the reasons mentioned above.

    I will say that accept for, maybe, the highest level spells (~ 7th - 9th levels), I don't think spells require the direct participation of a deity to cast. Yes, they require that the deity directly provide the cleric with the spell, but that is done when the cleric prays for his allotment each day (usually in the morning). Beyond that, the deity doesn't have to 'help' the cleric cast the spell. The deity may very well be aware of the circumstances each time one of his clerics casts such a spell and may be quite upset at the cleric if the god determines that the spell was used inappropriately. A wise cleric in such a situation (blackmail) would commune with his deity before making such a decision, but a well-planned assault (which LE PCs should be able to accomplish) would purposefully disallow any cleric to do that. It is conceivable that a cleric of a good deity, lacking the opportunity to contact his deity directly, may concede to the terrorists demands and decide to cast the spell to prevent the loss of life of someone he considers worth the cost.

    So, it was just offered as a possibility for the PCs.

    SirXaris
    _________________
    SirXaris' Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SirXaris?ref=hl
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:18 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    There is no reason why the deity could not also pour a little extra magic into the raise dead, if they do allow it to work. A nice little side dish of slow onset bestow curse, bestow disease, bestow blindness, and bestow deafness wouldn't be out of place... Laughing


    But, would a Good aligned deity do that to the one being raised? After all, he's not the one threatening the priests; his companions are doing that.
    But then, maybe a deity would do that. "Alive", as doctors define it, is "heart pumps blood, lungs take in air"; nothing about the QUALITY of said "life".

    Now, I could easily see the deity "having a chat" with the soul of the deceased person. Whatever words the DM in the role of this deity says are up to you, but basically something to the effect of "OK, I'll return you to the land of the living, just say the word and it's done. BUT...here on out, you work for me! Got that?" Possibly, the deity allows the person to be raised, but adds some kind of Quest (as in the spell) to the equation.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:30 pm  

    BlueWitch wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    There is no reason why the deity could not also pour a little extra magic into the raise dead, if they do allow it to work. A nice little side dish of slow onset bestow curse, bestow disease, bestow blindness, and bestow deafness wouldn't be out of place... Laughing


    But, would a Good aligned deity do that to the one being raised? After all, he's not the one threatening the priests; his companions are doing that.
    But then, maybe a deity would do that. "Alive", as doctors define it, is "heart pumps blood, lungs take in air"; nothing about the QUALITY of said "life".

    EVIL guys...are forcing a good priest...to raise their EVIL companion.

    "Yeah, but it isn't the dead demon-blooded cannibal child murderer anti-paladin that is threatening the priests, so would a GOOD deity really be mean to him in that way? I mean, he's just a demon-blooded cannibal child murder anti-paladin what never hurt nobody. Mostly."

    Laughing Ummm, yes, the GOOD deity would very much screw the demon-blooded cannibal child murderer anti-paladin over. So, I am perfectly fine with a GOOD deity unleashing their wrath upon said EVIL individual. Not only am I fine with it, I expect it. Happy
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2011
    Posts: 39
    From: Alberta

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:07 pm  

    The raise dead issue is not the only moral issue they may have. They may have to destroy the golden skull to take down the Temple for good which means an Evil party destroying an evil artifacts. I will add the story of the final chapter after the 7th of next month.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1243
    From: Clarksville, TN

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:18 pm  

    Yasir wrote:
    The raise dead issue is not the only moral issue they may have. They may have to destroy the golden skull to take down the Temple for good which means an Evil party destroying an evil artifacts...


    -The only Evil people who would have a problem with destroying that specific Evil artifact would be those of the Iuz/Tzuggtmoy/ToEE bent. Some Scarlet Brotherhood sorts wouldn't have moral qualms about it, for example.

    BTW, couldn't this discussion go on the general topics thread? I only came to the AD&D2 thread because its a slow day. Wink
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:30 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    BlueWitch wrote:

    But then, maybe a deity would do that. "Alive", as doctors define it, is "heart pumps blood, lungs take in air"; nothing about the QUALITY of said "life".

    EVIL guys...are forcing a good priest...to raise their EVIL companion.

    "Yeah, but it isn't the dead demon-blooded cannibal child murderer anti-paladin that is threatening the priests, so would a GOOD deity really be mean to him in that way? I mean, he's just a demon-blooded cannibal child murder anti-paladin what never hurt nobody. Mostly."

    Laughing Ummm, yes, the GOOD deity would very much screw the demon-blooded cannibal child murderer anti-paladin over. So, I am perfectly fine with a GOOD deity unleashing their wrath upon said EVIL individual. Not only am I fine with it, I expect it. Happy


    Yes, I typed the first part, then the part of my quote that I left here, came later as I reconsidered it.
    Still, I think some judgment should be used. After all, there is evil, then there is Evil, and finally, there is EVIL!!!! I could see the lower case evil getting stuck with a Quest in exchange for being raised. Evil, with the capital E, I'd fit in the category you described. And then, full on EVIL!!!, all caps and exclamation points, the deity should also strike the priest (yes, the priest of the Good aligned deity) down for being stupid enough to ask.
    But as I said, it's a judgment call. And, I also think the deity in any case, should go after the evil party that held his priests hostage in the first place.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 24, 2015 8:13 pm  

    Yasir wrote:
    The raise dead issue is not the only moral issue they may have. They may have to destroy the golden skull to take down the Temple for good which means an Evil party destroying an evil artifacts.

    Destroying the skull is not a moral issue at all. They are not doing it for good; they are doing it for their evil masters. Do you think the servants of enemy demon lords face a moral quandary when they kill each other simply because, ultimately, evil killing evil benefits good? Nope. There is no moral quandary in evil killing evil. They sure are not doing it to benefit good, but to benefit their own particular brand of evil. No moral issue whatsoever.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 25, 2015 9:50 am  

    Totally agree. I always appreciate a campaign where Evil fights Evil, OR, better yet, two sides of "Good" oppose (or even battle!) each other b/c of differences in philosophy (take Heironeous and Trithereon, for instance). To me, those make for the most interesting role-playing situations and adventures.

    -Lanthorn
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.31 Seconds