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    Canonfire :: View topic - Questions About the Temple of Elemental Evil
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    Questions About the Temple of Elemental Evil
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:40 pm  
    Questions About the Temple of Elemental Evil

    What comes to mind when you think of the Temple of Elemental Evil, originally published as adventure modules T1-4 for 1st Edition Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, by TSR, Inc.? In my readings about it, I am confused because there seems to be a big elemental theme to it, as in elementals (the monsters) and princes of elemental evil called archomentals, but also more of "a place where evildoers of all kinds were gathering". As I see it, it has importance to the Greyhawk setting because it was like that. The good nations nearby had fought against the forces of evil there before, at the famous Battle of Emridy Meadows. If a new temple of elemental evil rises, would it be a stronghold of elementals and spell-casters focused on elemental magic, or was the point that it was "elemental" evil in the sense of being pure and at the foundation of all evildoers' designs? A gathering place for all bent on destruction to come and train and unite.

    I would think that would appeal to Iuz, and his father, Graz'zt. Graz'zt dreams of uniting all the evil fiends of the Lower Planes in an assault on the Upper Planes, so maybe he or his son was thinking of something like that only for the Flanaess when they erected the temple. Sooner or later they may try again.
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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:59 am  

    It seems to me that EGG may have conceived of the Temple as being of "elemental evil" with the meaning of the term "elemental" being "primary" or "fundamental" but that Mentzer may have (mis)interpreted the word "elemental" in the sense of referring to the elements. But I may be wrong.
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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:51 am  

    I think, and wiser minds than I will correct me if I'm wrong here, the Temple was conceived as a big complex worshipping elemental evil (the archomentals or Princes of Elemental Evil) whose primary purpose has been usurped by the schemes of Iuz and Zuggtmoy who are now using it for their own nefarious purposes.

    Of course, Return to the ToEE (in 3E) re-purposed the cult again as a cult of Tharizdun in his guise as the Elder Elemental Eye. Given the age of the original ToEE module and that sadly EGG is not around to ask any more it is yours to do with as you will. Personally I like both Iuz and Tharizdun (and Zuggtmoy for that matter) as BBEGs in Greyhawk so I've previously used a combination of them.

    There are, as I recall, many threads both here and elsewhere speculating on this very topic, particularly given that Iuz's imprisonment in Castle Greyhawk took him out of the picture during part of the Temple's existence. There are also old AOL threads compiled as PDFs on this site that do shed some light on EGG's original intentions (including interviews with him I think). Check out the Downloads section of CF for these.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:36 pm  

    My recollection (and, it may be based at least partly on fan-made material) is that Iuz and Tzuggtmoy conceived the EEG as a fictitious entity. Together, they recruited evil clerics and humanoid followers for their own worship under the guise of the Elder Elemental God.

    The main purpose of the Temple was to establish a base of power for Iuz south of Furyondy, his most powerful, and immediate, foe. The reason for the deception involving a fake god was to confuse any enemy spies, etc. from discovering that it was Iuz that was behind it all. Only Hedrak, the top cleric in the lowest level of the Temple, knows that the EEG is really Iuz.

    Iuz was imprisoned, but I can't remember if that happened before or after the Battle of Emridy Meadows. I believe it was before, hence his power wasn't available to assist his followers in the fight and Tzuggtmoy, on her own, couldn't prevail and ended up imprisoned within.

    Tharizdun played no part in the original module.

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    GreySage

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:44 pm  

    From Paul Stormberg's interview with Gary Gygax, printed in Oerth Journal #12:

    OJ 12 wrote:
    Q: In G1-3 Against the Giants you describe the symbol for the EEG as follows: “...a wall of glossy purple stone, with an amber-like inlay of a huge inverted triangle with a Y enclosed within it and touching the sides of the triangle.” Do you mean “...touching the vertices of the triangle.”, thus dividing the inverted triangle into 3 smaller, equal triangles?

    A: You have it right. The Y-shape in the triangle rises and thus make a shape akin to that when looking down on a three-sided pyramid. That is the symbol called an “eye of fire” - although a certain artist didn’t pay attention.

    Q: Is there any relationship between The Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE) and the Elder Elemental God? (T1-4 indicates no relation whatsoever, but according to your above comment on the Eye of Fire symbol, it appears [Zuggtmoy] was blatantly using the EEG’s symbol, or a parody of it, as part of her ruse-religion to draw evil beings into her service.)

    A: You have sussed out a dark secret! The EEG was indeed meant by me to have a place in the very nethermost recesses of the ToEE. An anomaly there allowed him to manifest a portion of himself, and by doing the wrong (right from the DM’s point of view) thing the adventurers could release him also! Of course that would counter somewhat the freeing of Zuggtmoy, had she been loosed, so on balance it could serve to redress that error. But, alas, I was too busy with other things at the time when the project was being completed. As it was already quite hefty, I decided to omit any mention of this to Frank Mentzer, and so the ToEE was released with only the Eye of Fire as a clue to what I should have included in the adventure.


    That said, although this was apparently not Gygax's original intention, in his novel Artifact of Evil the Elder Elemental God is presented as a sham cult devised by Iuz and Zuggtmoy and swiftly discredited after the events of the GDQ modules.

    Artifact of Evil wrote:
    The drow were of some help. These dark elves had abandoned all service of the supposed Elemental Evil—that had been his and Queen Zuggtmoy's ploy anyway. To imagine that anyone could swallow the concept still caused Iuz to laugh with fiendish delight! What was more chaotic indeed than the ravening elements?


    SirXaris wrote:
    Iuz was imprisoned, but I can't remember if that happened before or after the Battle of Emridy Meadows.


    Iuz was imprisoned in 505 CY.

    The Temple of Elemental Evil was first constructed as a small chapel in 566 CY (three years before the Battle of Emridy Meadows, T1-4 seems to say, though the cult already existed, perhaps arriving from Dyvers or the Wild Coast).

    The Battle of Emridy Meadows took place in 569 CY.

    Iuz was released from his imprisonment in 570 CY.

    Logically, then, Iuz could have had no direct role in building it, though T1-4 says that his magic helped in its construction. Perhaps he helped build a different, earlier temple somewhere on the coast of the Nyr Dyv, or else the Temple must have ruled in Nulb, Hommlet, and the surrounding territory "for leagues around" unmolested by the forces of Good for over 60 years. Or perhaps Iuz's cult aided in the construction of the Temple without Iuz's direct participation.

    T1-4 also claims Zuggtmoy agreed to ally with Iuz in reaction to the "sharp check recently dealt to Lolth," which suggests the Temple was built after the events of the GDQ series. Which is impossible since the World of Greyhawk boxed set placed the Battle of Emridy Meadows in 569 CY. So perhaps there was some earlier "sharp check dealt to Lolth in her plans to wreck Evil" prior to 505 CY. Which isn't impossible, since I'm sure Lolth has a lot of plans.

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer says this:

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer wrote:
    Second, the notorious Horde of Elemental Evil arose, a collection of cultists and villains headquartered at a temple south of the town of Verbobonc. The Horde was the puppet of Zuggtmoy, Iuz’s abyssal consort, who instructed it in bizarre teachings at the behest of her absent lover.

    The Horde’s banditry was finally vanquished in 569 CY at the Battle of Emridy Meadows, where Prince Thrommel of Furyondy led forces from Furyondy, Veluna, Verbobonc, and other realms in victory and the destruction of the temple. Adventurers put down an attempted resurgence of the Temple of Elemental Evil in 579 CY.


    Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil states the Temple was constructed twenty-five years ago, which suggests that adventure took place in 591 CY.

    T1-4 states that Zuggtmoy chose "elemental evil" as a theme because she thought it would be more appealing than fungi. This did mean the elements: earth, water, air, and fire, with the idea that the four elemental cults would compete and check each other's power so that no faction grew mightier than Zuggtmoy herself.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    T1-4 states that Zuggtmoy chose "elemental evil" as a theme because she thought it would be more appealing than fungi. This did mean the elements: earth, water, air, and fire, with the idea that the four elemental cults would compete and check each other's power so that no faction grew mightier than Zuggtmoy herself.


    I was wondering if this was going to get mentioned. Not so much a ruse as it was just a smart play by Zuggtmoy, who realized that her beloved fungi would not draw many followers, so she adopted an alternative dogma for the temple. It was also more interesting that the focus was placed on the infighting of the elemental factions instead of emphasizing elemental themes throughout the dungeon, which would've gotten very boring IMO.
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    Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:39 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    T1-4 states that Zuggtmoy chose "elemental evil" as a theme because she thought it would be more appealing than fungi. This did mean the elements: earth, water, air, and fire, with the idea that the four elemental cults would compete and check each other's power so that no faction grew mightier than Zuggtmoy herself.


    Hey, thanks for the great post, especially this part.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:42 pm  

    I actually linked them all up in my own way, blending much of that. In a nuthouse, here's what I did.

    SPOILER ALERT. IF YOU ARE PLAYING IN MY GAME, PLEASE DON'T READ!
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    CLASSICS CAMPAIGN BACKGROUND

    Long before the Invoked Devastation and the Rain of Colorless fire, when the Drow rose up against their Grey Olven brothers and began the Kindred Wars, they turned their corrupt hearts away from their Gods and sought comfort in the worship of the Blackest One, Tharizdun. Throughout the Hellfurnaces and Chrystalmists, temples devoted to the Slumbering One appeared in secret forbidding places. For centuries they sought in vain the secret of the Ultimate Sleeper’s imprisonment. Although their efforts were ultimately futile, they did succeed in awakening his fiendish servant Ghaunadaur, the Elder Elemental God.
    It was this cruel and amorphous deity, King of the material Planes and Lord of the Elements, who supported the Drow priests in their worship of the Eternal One. He too had been forgotten with the imprisonment of his master, although His different aspects are known across the planes by many other names. With His guidance, the Drow delved into long forgotten mysteries which twisted their already distorted nature into an evil mockery of their virtuous kin.
    Centuries later, the fleeing Suel survivors of the First Regent War stumbled upon a Drow enclave in the Chrystalmists and were taken as slaves. For two generations they toiled with the Drow, eventually converting to the worship of Tharizdun. Eventually, a bargain was struck between the Suel and their Drow masters. While they would remain loyal servants to their dark elven lords, their children would be raised as the first human priests of the Great One of All Evil. The deposed regent’s great, great grandson, Tilorop-b-Nan, grew quickly in power, to the amazment of his Drow tutors, and he eventually returned to the Suel lands. During the Second Regent War, Tilorop used his arcane knowledge learned from the Drow to transform himself into the first lich on Oerth. For years he worked secretly, quietly spreading the worship of Tharizdun among his ever-increasing followers, and with his victory in the Third Regents War he was appointed Priest-Regent.
    This event, which took place in 513 SD, marked the beginning of the Time of Darkness, when Tharizdun came to be worshipped openly throughout the Suel Empire. Although the priesthood of the Slumbering One would be driven from the kingdom in 900 SD, their descendants would eventually form the monastic order known as the Scarlett Brotherhood. In 5011 SD, missionary monks returned from their hidden temples and began once again to promote the worship of the Blackest One and to establish power in the empire. Their influence was largely responsible for the beginning of “The Great War” which culminated in the destruction of both the Bakluni and Suloise Empires. In the process, they too were scattered and eventually regrouped under the leadership of Tilvan, the last High Priest of Tharizdun, and settled in the peninsula which bears his name.
    In 825 SD, a Drow/Suel alliance led by the Lich Tilorop began the final campaigns against the Grey Elves of the Crystalmists. For 25 years fierce battles were fought and powerful magics ravaged the land. Finally, in 850 SD the last of the Grey Elven cities fell. The Suel army was destroyed while both the Drow and the Grey Elves were almost exterminated. The surviving Grey Elves retreated East into the Flanaess leaving the mountains to their evil kin, many of whom retreated into the Underdark. The few Drow who remained, together with hordes of humanoid mercenaries, were scattered by the Wind Dukes of Aaqu on the Plains of Pesh in 1103 SD. This was the last recorded battle of the Kindred Wars.
    The Drow who fled underground found themselves locked in bitter conflict with many new enemies, particularly the Svirfneblin and Dwarves. Centuries of struggle hardened the Drow, and they eventually carved out a niche for themselves in the vastness of the Underdark. They conquered the wondrous cities of their enemies and worked awesome magics to create their malevolent caverns.
    Most of these Drow, disheartened and embittered by their underground exile, turned away from Tharizdun and began to worship their new Goddess Lolth, Demonqueen of Spiders. The last temples to the One Who Must Never Awaken and His servant Ghaunadaur were sealed for all time, and their names were forgotten by even the long-remembering Drow. Only the most ancient and arcane Drow tomes even mention these primeval beings, all other records having been lost or destroyed. The Illithids and Aboleth were amongst the original worshippers of Ghaunadaur, and thus their enmity with the Drow was particularly bitter. Though many long years have passed such that the Drow no longer have any memory of their worship of Ghaunadaur, the truth is yet remembered by their abominable foes.
    With their conversion to the chaos-loving Lolth, the Drow communities splintered into anarchy. The High Priestess of Lolth forged together the first great noble families and established the social organizations of the Drow according to Lolth’s design. A precarious balance of order and chaos was achieved which protected the Drow from their self-destructive tendencies while simultaneously inhibiting further conquests in the Underdark. Under the predominance of the priestesses of Lolth, Drow society evolved into its corrupted state of evil, depravity, and wickedness.
    In the fullness of time, only Istus knows whether it was destined to occur, the lost knowledge of their true history was rediscovered by the Drow. In the city of Erelhei-Cinlu, slaves of the Eilservs, Third House of the city, unearthed a sealed entrance covered with unknown sigils. When research by the priestesses failed to reveal their meaning, Matron Eldraemva ordered the seal broken, revealing a long forgotten temple of Ghaunadaur, the Elder Elemental God. Within the temple, the Drow found magical treasures of unknown origin. With the aid of this new magic, the Eilserves eliminated the First and Second Houses in an unprecedented and audacious series of wars, quickly raising themselves to the supreme rank of First House of Erelhei-Cinlu.
    Greatly pleased by the prowess of the Eilserves, as well as their sacrifice of so many powerful Drow nobles, including the Matron Mother of the once First House, Lolth remained unaware of the interest taken by them in the new temple. Matron Eldraemva sent her trusted minions far and wide in search of information regarding the forgotten temple. It was her eldest daughter, Eclavdra, who first learned from the Illithid the truths about Ghaunadaur. They revealed to Eclavdra the secrets of the Elder Elemental God, and under their tutelage, she became the first Drow Priestess of Ghaunadaur in 5000 years. Upon her return to Erelhei-Cinlu, Eclavdra slew her mother and took her place as Matron Eclavdra.
    What Eclavdra desired was a return to the old Drow ways, order over chaos, the surface over the Underdark, Ghaunadaur over Lolth. When the Eilservs attempted to force the issue, Lolth commanded the other noble houses on the Ruling Council to destroy them. However, the Eilservs had been quite active in spreading their revealed history and the worship of Ghaunadaur among the lesser noble houses. When the Houses of Kilsek, Despana, and Noquar tried to lead the other houses against the Eilservs, they found that fully one-third of the city’s noble houses had been converted to Ghaunadaur and would support the Eilservs. This caused the other houses to hesitate, and the Eilservs were able to strike at the Alarstyl House, then the Second House, and destroy it. Fear grasped the other houses, not being accustomed to seeing a house which had clearly lost Lolth’s favor wield such power. Erelhei-Cinlu thus stands on the brink of civil war, a war which the Drow fear and Lolth demands.
    In a fit of rage and frustration, Lolth mentioned this problem to one of her closest Abyssal associates, Zuggtmoy, the Demoness of Funghi. Zuggtmoy quickly saw the possibilities of Elemental Evil, and set about enlisting the aid of the four Princes of Elemental Evil, Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra, and Yan-C-Bin. With their assistance she conceived the plan to extend her influence on Oerth with the construction of the Temple of Elemental Evil. However, Zuggtmoy failed to recognize the relationship between Ghaunadaur and the Princes of Elemental Evil; if they were Princes, then He was the King of Elemental Evil and their ultimate Master. Lolth, understanding this relationship, viewed this as a betrayal most bitter and base, even by Abyssal standards, and vowed revenge and eternal enmity against the Queen of Funghi.
    The many Drow who visited the early Temple were worshippers of Ghaunadaur, not Lolth, and they secretly plotted the ursurpation of Zuggtmoy’s work. Just as the Temple was expanding, the Drow struck, and only the appearance of Zuggtmoy herself checked their furious attack. On her part, Zuggtmoy never realized that the Drow who attacked the Temple were not Lolth’s faithful; in fact, she thought the attack had been ordered by Lolth herself. This widened the split between the two Demon Queens and may lead to their mutual defeats on Oerth. As a result of the conflict, the Temple was greatly weakened. The Powers of Good were able to defeat Zuggtmoy, binding her in her prison while Iuz was a prisoner of the Arch-Mage Zagyg.
    The ignorance of Iuz and Zuggtmoy allowed them to be fooled into the creation of the Org of Golden Death to open up the powerful elemental nodes. They knew only that control of the nodes would give them and their temple great power. What they did not know was that creating the nodes also served the goals of the Temple of the Elder Elemental God. For years after the Temple of Elemental Evil’s fall, Iuz supported the continuance of the temple through his minion Hedrack. He knew it was too powerful and useful a tool, though he did not wish to have it laid low as Zuggtmoy’s arrogance had done. Thus, he kept the forces of the temple divided, while he slowly worked towards his own goals. A band of adventurers, the Heroes of Hommlet, arrived to investigate the temple and ultimately destroyed both the temple as well as the Orb of Golden Death. Open intervention by Iuz was only met by the appearance of St. Cuthbert himself, which led the demi-god to ultimately abandon his elemental ambitions.
    With this second destruction of the temple, the Doomdreamers, high priests of the Elder Elemental God, saw their chance to finally take over directly. Iuz and Zuggtmoy had done the work of creating the nodes, and the destruction of the temple and orb left both with the belief that it had all been a failure. Neither understood the true aims of the Doomdreamers. There are 6 distinct phases to their plans:

    1) Uncover the bottom level of the Temple of Elemental Evil.
    2) Rededicate the Greater Temple to the Elder Elemental Eye, eradicating all trace of Iuz and Zuggtmoy.
    3) Uncover the gates to the four elemental nodes
    4) Use the Orb of Oblivion so that the gates are once again fully functional.
    5) Find the Champion of Elemental Evil and have him call the Princes of Elemental Evil into their respective nodes.
    6) Bring the Princes of Elemental to Oerth. What even the Doomdreamers do not know is that the Princes of Elemental Evil, together on Oerth, could free Tharizdun and bring about the end of all existence.
    Meanwhile, Eclavdra had sent her Eldest Daughter, Eldrave, to establish an alliance with the Slavelords. There she met with Brother Kerin of the Scarlet Brotherhood. They concluded a mutual pact to restor both the Drow and the Suel to their rightful places, and used the Slavelords as their mutual tool. While the Eilservs sought allies and slaves to help them take control of Erelhei-Cinlu and eventually return to the surface, the Scarlet Brotherhood saw the Drow as excellent pawns in the furtherance of their ultimate desire, the revival of Tharzidun, about whom the Drow were yet ignorant.
    Their plan involves four distinct phases:

    1) The spreading of their political control over large areas of the Flanaess.
    2) The spreading of worship of Tharizdun indirectly, through worship of the Elder Elemental God, Elemental Evil, even the Earth Dragon.
    3) The open worship of Tharizdun and purification of the Suel people.
    4) The finding of the Theoparts and the awakening of Tharizdun.

    The Scarlet Brotherhood is also very interested in Zuggtmoy’s failed efforts to create an Oerthly empire based on the worship of Elemental Evil. Now, with the Temple’s apparent fall, the Scarlet Brotherhood is anxious to ascertain more solid information about its present state, and to learn whether or not they could now seize control themselves. This would be a huge gain for the Scarlet Brotherhood as they would then have the Central Flanaess, primarily Keoland and Celene, in a vice between the Temple of Evil to the North, the Eilservs to the West, the Slavelords to the East, and their own expanding dominions to the South. This would bode ill for all other powers in the Flanaess.
    Perhaps the greatest irony is that the two powers who have the most to gain from cooperation, Lolth and Zuggtmoy, are implacable enemies on account of a simple misunderstanding and their own demonic pride. Further, the good nations of the Flanaess, including Celene, are ignorant of the larger picture.

    Only one group even knows the secret of the Scarlet Brotherhood’s ultimate goals, the Zuokenites. For ages they have remained in seclusion, neutral observers as great events unfolded throughout the Flanaess. From their scattered spies they have sent a steady stream of reports to their breathren in the Lendor Isles. There Zuoken himself resides, shielded by mighty elven magics, awaiting the time fortold in legend, the time of the Gathering of the Theoparts. Among the many signs of this event are the following: the turning away from Lolth by the Drow, the disintegration of the Great Kingdom, the renewal of the Sea of Dust, the reversal of the Fler River, and the ascension of the first king of Celene. In preparation of this age, Zuoken has trained an elite order of elven monks, the Shadowmasters. They have trained in the same mental and physical arts which the Scarlet Brotherhood once stole from the Bakluni, except theirs remains pure, uncorrupted by evil. It is their charge to see that The One Who Must Slumber Everlastingly does, indeed, do so.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 17, 2015 6:46 pm  

    That was really great!
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:46 pm  

    I've been doing a lot of thinking about ToEE over the years on my blog. There's a lot of deep-think type stuff that can be done on the module, and a lot of things are contradictory (as Rasgon mentions, the timeline in the module doesn't account for Iuz being imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk; Frank Mentzer hand-waives this in online Q&A forums, saying in essence that Iuz could communicate with Zuggtmoy even though he was imprisoned, which doesn't make a lick of sense to me).

    The whole "Elemental Evil" thing was a ploy by the demonness Zuggtmoy, as stated in the module:

    Quote:
    Consulting some of her clerical servants, Zuggtmoy decided that Elemental Evil would have more appeal than a cult dedicated to her beloved fungi. - ToEE, p. 29


    There's no connection between it and the Princes of Elemental Evil. The Fiend Folio was published after T1.

    The original (real-world) intention was to have a link to the Elder Elemental God in there, below the Temple proper, but it never materialized in the printed version as it was handed off from Gygax to Mentzer. Hence the tenuous tie-ins to the Temples of the Eye that appear in G3 and D3, but are never really fleshed out.

    A new, "genuine" cult of Elemental Evil would have nothing to do with the Temple near Nulb, in my opinion. It would be more akin to what we see in those Temples of the Eye; tentacle rods and curtains, etc.

    Joe / GG
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    Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:56 pm  

    Very intriguing. Thanks.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:45 am  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:

    ...as Rasgon mentions, the timeline in the module doesn't account for Iuz being imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk; Frank Mentzer hand-waives this in online Q&A forums, saying in essence that Iuz could communicate with Zuggtmoy even though he was imprisoned, which doesn't make a lick of sense to me...


    -Well, Gang kingpins communicate with their allies and underlings when [/i]they're[/i] in prison... Razz

    Maybe the imprisonment simply meant that he couldn't leave the area, and his communication to mortal followers was impeded, but not immortals? Or maybe communication was through an intermediary?
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    Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:53 am  

    Looks like the 5E elemental evil will have more of an elemental theme.

    http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/princes-apocalypse
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:37 pm  

    I think if Iuz could communicate with Zuggtmoy during his imprisonment, she (or someone she was in contact with, like Iggwilv) could have freed him from it. Zagyg's imprisonment of the nine demigods makes more sense if none of the other gods and powers knew where they were.

    It's supposed to be a thing that nobody knew where Zuoken was imprisoned, for example.

    In Greyhawk Ruins it says that the magical powers of the great obelisk in the Cavern of Magic prevent any contact with any deity, and prevents deities from seeing anything within, on levels P600-PB00, except in room P721 (where Zagig built a special shrine to Boccob). The room in which Zagyg conjured the demigods was in room P903. "Zagig knew that the obelisk below prevented the gods from calling on any other divine aid and also weakened these beings." Though, it should be said that the notion that Zagig simply summoned the demigods is contradicted by Iuz the Evil saying that Zagig needed the aid of Kelanen, Keoghtom, Heward, Murlynd, and St. Cuthbert to capture Iuz. In any case, the demigods were imprisoned in room Z405, which isn't explicitly under the obelisk's shielding effect, but it'd be strange for Zagyg to put them there if it wasn't. Why not build the prison beneath the Tower of Power, if it provided more protections than the Tower of Zagyg?

    In Sean K. Reynolds' article in Dragon #342, Olidammara was surprised to find his protégé Rudd imprisoned in Castle Greyhawk when he went there to rob Zagyg's treasury. That tells us that, first, Rudd couldn't or didn't simply tell him where she was, and second that Olidammara did know afterwards and decided not to free her after all (even though he did, after figuring out how to dispel Zagyg's armadillo polymorph, return to rob the treasury). That's kind of a **** move from Olidammara, unless it was just too difficult for him to make his way to the Godtrap (it's true that the obelisk seems to make gods weaker in its presence).

    Of course, in Gygax's original campaign Olidammara was one of the nine prisoners, not another god who tried to rob the place later and stumbled on to the secret.

    In any case, I think Zuggtmoy and Iuz created the cult before his imprisonment, and the temple itself was built much later.
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    Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:36 pm  

    I read somewhere Iuz wasn't even a demigod yet when he was imprisoned, but he became one somehow during his imprisonment. I have always assumed that meant he was caught up in something like a demiplane, where he could adventure and earn experience, only not leave. The temple may have been built using his magic, as in his power as a demigod which his priests could draw upon.
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    Tue Jan 20, 2015 11:48 pm  

    Barantor wrote:
    Looks like the 5E elemental evil will have more of an elemental theme.

    http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/princes-apocalypse


    Yes, but that is to be in the Forgotten Realms. If a new temple of elemental evil arises in Greyhawk, I would think it would be a tool for Iuz' territorial ambitions.

    One of the things I've always wondered about is how the good nations learned it was such a threat. What could have made them unite in what seems like a small amount of time since when the temple was founded? If a new one is rising, surely they would send armies right away?

    I look at the elemental evil cult as alive and well despite the destruction of the temple. It is like a political movement more than a religion. Evildoers of the world believe it's the best road to power, and they come from far and wide to join its ranks. There must be a seductive quality to its bizarre teachings beyond just elementals and elemental magic. Iuz and Zuggtmoy might have put it to their followers as "the power of the dark side", like from Star Wars in a way. The Force is like an elemental religion, and the cult is saying elemental evil is the true way of nature where the strong rule the weak, unlimited by artificial questions of morality and conscience. In this way, Iuz himself might bow to it. Should it, or could it, be real? Zuggtmoy just stumbled onto it, but now that the Elder Elemental Eye is awakened, there could be like a scramble among the evil powers to claim a position in the coming order.

    This sends shivers down my spine! I would make Forgotten Realms heroes have to come to Greyhawk if they mean to stop this. Putting wheel upon wheel of intrigues as GreyhawkGrognard said in his blog would be great.
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    Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:36 am  

    Who else pronounces Iuz "eye uhz"? That's how I was taught to pronounce it, and I much prefer it.
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    Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:46 am  

    SirAntoine wrote:
    Who else pronounces Iuz "eye uhz"? That's how I was taught to pronounce it, and I much prefer it.


    Once I figured out that was the correct pronunciation, I forced myself to say it that way. Now it's just habit.

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    Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:04 pm  

    GreyhawkGrognard wrote:
    SirAntoine wrote:
    Who else pronounces Iuz "eye uhz"? That's how I was taught to pronounce it, and I much prefer it.


    Once I figured out that was the correct pronunciation, I forced myself to say it that way. Now it's just habit.


    Same here.

    I initially pronounced it 'Eye' - 'uhz', but learned (can't remember where) that 'Eye - ooze' is how EGG intended for it to be pronounced, so I forced myself to change. Smile

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    Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:32 pm  

    It took me a while to find it (I am not the Research-Sage that Rasgon is, but merely his apprentice Happy ), but according to page 5 of Greyhawk: Player's Guide (softback, with a man [or is it an elf?] and dog on the cover), the following pronunciations are 'correct:'

    i YOOZE (my personal favorite), yooz, or EE uz

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:41 pm  

    SirXaris wrote:

    I initially pronounced it 'Eye' - 'uhz', but learned (can't remember where) that 'Eye - ooze' is how EGG intended for it to be pronounced, so I forced myself to change. Smile

    SirXaris


    Eye ooze? You should probably have a doctor take a look at that. it can't be good. ;)

    With a scrap of real estate the size of the Flanaess, it stands to reason there'd be regional dialects and accents. Some might say "eye ooze", other might say "eye uzz", and so on. Pieces of land much smaller than that have regional accents.
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