I think it has been mentioned in several places that in no uncertain terms, there will be a 4th edition to the D&D game. Probably within the next 5 years or so. With Greyhawk being the "default" setting of the current edition what do you think will happen when the 4th ed comes out?
I remember hearing somewhere that Eberron is going to be the default game for all new products released for D&D. By this I mean that there are no "generic" adventure modules being released. Every adventure being released in the near future is all for Eberron.
IN reading Eberron, I have absolutely no interest in that setting.
So if a new edition IS released, do you think that WOTC would release the GREYHAWK setting, and let it be pikced up by another company?
............................................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
I think it has been mentioned in several places that in no uncertain terms, there will be a 4th edition to the D&D game. Probably within the next 5 years or so. With Greyhawk being the "default" setting of the current edition what do you think will happen when the 4th ed comes out?
So if a new edition IS released, do you think that WOTC would release the GREYHAWK setting, and let it be pikced up by another company?
When 4th Ed comes out, Living Greyhawk will pass away shortly thereafter, if it has not already been phased out. The changes inherent in 4th Ed will make conversion a technical but untimately unsatisfying exercise, much as 3rd Ed did for Ravensbluff. The already dicey proposition craps out. With LG by the boards, the Dungeon will not be able to continue to slip in Greyhawk material, assuming Mona is even still around. He may have sought greener pastures monetarily or within the living dream that is professional game design.
So, Greyhawk will be stone cold dead.
This site and whatever largess WotC sees fit to provide on its site under the "dead worlds" rubric will be all that remains.
And do not kid yourself, the majority of LG players will move on to the next Living Whatever. A comparative few will remain true to the Hawk.
Greyhawk's chances for yet another revival will rest, absent a white knight, with the fans, as it always seems to be. How is Wotc and/or Hasbro to be convinced that Greyhawk should be given yet another life? Simple. They have to be convinced that it would make business sense to do so. This is a two part task.
First, there must be proof of an audience for a revived Greyhawk. That means fan sites like this with lots of activity and lots of activity on whatever "dead world" site WotC will provide. This is the relatively easy part.
I say relatively easy because Greyhawk fans online have proven themselves to be an energetic group. Now, that was then and this is now. And this is Canonfire. Cool, technically nifty site. The Topics section is, however, a disgrace. All those posts. How many average reads? 200? 300? How many avergage comments? 2? 4? 1? Less than 1? How many members of Canonfire? 3000+? Do the math. This is not the kind of activity that will convince anyone of anything. At present, Canonfire is a vanity press. That's just looking at the numbers. Not a value judgment.
As well, look at this Forum. I really ought to email to each and every Canonfire subscriber a complete set of the old AOL Greyhawk message logs. Now, THAT place hummed with energy. It vibrated. It crackled. Your screen shook. Yes. There was a nice toasty flamewar about every two months but in between nobody touched the sheer inventiveness and creativity of that forum. It was what in large measure convinced old TSR, chiefly in the person of Roger Moore (and a few others) that there was life left in Greyhawk. No offense but this Forum is a tad sedate.
This is going to sound very odd but for a forum to prosper you need a tolerance for Greyhawkers' enthusiasms to get out of control which is a nice way of saying there is a place for flamewars. Why? Because everything less than that will also prosper and THAT is what you want. You also need people to be forum leaders. Leading discussions. Making connections. And keeping the flamewars in check. Most AOL flamewars did not end when the Admin shut down the thread or banned a participant. They ended when a collective will formed and said, "Enough already." Any old AOLers remember the Lithium War? My wrangles with Hrsnash? They were ended by the community and they produced good stuff in between. I personally consider Hrsnash the finest opponent it has ever been my pleasure to tangle with online. HE MADE ME THINK! It was not just a shouting match. Flame with your brain not your mouth.
Now, look at this place. You got a ways to go. Politeness and decorum and Robert's Rules of Order will not produce what you need. Question is will Holian and company allow it (and Gary was on AOL so he knows I'm not making this stuff up about that forum) and then who's gonna lead it. You lead, not by a big mouth or by putting down others, but by force of your creativity and imagination. I think you've got that here; it just needs to be turned loose. You need to get loose and funky.
Second, after you can show a community of fans sufficiently awake and alive to make a case that there may still be business to be done with Greyhawk, you have to get somebody to listen. Absent a white knight, that will be Hasbro, and maybe WotC. I say maybe WotC because I think the present brain trust there actively dislikes Greyhawk. So, it will be necessary to go over their heads to Hasbro and bring it down on them from above. This is the difficult part. Any corporation is congenitally hard of hearing. They pay lisservice to listening to customers and really only listen to the point where they hear what confirms the ideas they had going in.
To get a corporation's attention, you need a mix of personalities, all of which should be interesting by some measure. I was annoying. I knew things I wasn't supposed to know as "just a fan" and broadcast these things in a way that made TSR people both curious and nervous. I did not enjoy the periodic "Screed hunts" but managed to survive intact. My first thought is to play a similar role again, which means I need to start digging now. Thus, I'm back.
AOL had loads of unique personalities and I am certain there are just as many here. But you can't hide your light under a barrel. No one will send you an engraved invitation, "Would you be pleased to join us the week after next for the revivial of Ye Olde Greyhawk? RVSP to WotC." Not going to happen. YOU have to decide to step up and step out. It can be a bit scarey but you will never see 99% of all the people you post with online. What's to be afraid of? Show your stuff! If you got it, flaunt it!
Right now there is no dynamic in place in this forum. All roles are open. If this place is ever going to really come alive, somebody has got to start the ball rolling. Who's it gonna be? It ain't me. I'm just the firebell in the night. Get up or burn in your sleep.
There are 3000+ subscribers. How many post? But look at the hits to this site. Come on. You don't get a sash or a badge and being an Admin doesn't mean squat by itself. I know there are people with some interesting things to say out there who are studiously quite. Cut loose. Lead a discussion.
And for those posting now. Keep it up but loosen up. Either that or I'm going to start looking for diamonds. Challenge each other to think when you post. And to get a reaction try to add a little zing. That's entertainment! And we are all here why? If not for that.
Every post should do the following:
1 - inform
2- entertain
3 - invite a response (which means being written to encourage a response, not just hope for one)
This is not hard if you just consciously think about it before typing. And remember, you are anonymous! If you screw it up, who cares? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
For Greyhawk to be revived, this site that styles itself a leading Greyhawk forum needs to be kick'n in a way it is not presently. Or there will be nothing to communicate to Hasbro.
There's time. But please don't make me wait too long.
Am I suggesting you need to remake this place? That you need a makeover? Yup. Am I disrespecting all the accomplishments of Canonfire? To a large degree, yup. Cause it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. You afraid to consider the matter, mind all closed up in your pride in this site? Pride goeth before the fall.
You know where I stand. For good or for bad. Just hopefully not indifferent.
Hasta la vista, baby. _________________ NightScreed
- There Can Be Only One
Naturally I can't agree with everything you posted. Since coming back to CF myself, I've noticed these forums have actually exploded with activity compared to what they once were. It's all relative IMO. Also, knowing what I know of things, I suggest you come to Greychat on Thursday. That should be exactly what you're looking for.
Greyhawk has been 'dead' a couple of times, but never at my table. I suspect that neither will it at yours either, Nite.
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Right now there is no dynamic in place in this forum. All roles are open. If this place is ever going to really come alive, somebody has got to start the ball rolling. Who's it gonna be? It ain't me. I'm just the firebell in the night. Get up or burn in your sleep.
Welcome to the forums Nite! Thursday nites is what makes this place come alive, we have a lively debate and community and sounds like you have something to contribute as well. You might drop by on the off nights, we tend to 'burn' pretty bright on the offnights as well. I tend to be there in the evenings and have my laptop open near my desk as I toil on my home game and am always open for a good GH dalliance.
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There's time. But please don't make me wait too long.
OK, well nothing like a challenge, but however lets just say that some of us have been working while others sleep!
The staff is in the process of revising and releasing the Code Of Conduct for this forum, but it is safe to say that flamewars are not welcome here.
Spirited discussions are another story, but when a conversation slips into namecalling and unproductive argument, it can no longer produce anything positive.
Last edited by forumfire on Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think it has been mentioned in several places that in no uncertain terms, there will be a 4th edition to the D&D game. Probably within the next 5 years or so. With Greyhawk being the "default" setting of the current edition what do you think will happen when the 4th ed comes out?
Rumors of editions coming and editions to be have plagued us 'Hawkers since 2E. However, despite the fear of change I welcome it from time to time. Things do and will change. For the better? Well lets leave that to the edition wars please!
I think some of us are still in the shock of the rapid changes that 3E brought on and will, for better or worse be affected by that event. We can live with it and deal with it as each of us sees fit for the time being, but, it divides the Greyhawks into camps as well as editions now and thats not such a good thing as edition wars tend to flame up in those harsh lands.
If tomorrow dawns and a new edition greets me, even if it is Eberron or Forgotten Realms or the next 'Great New Setting/Campaign', Greyhawk endures much like any good setting. Looking for a company to provide direction in that regard is a well that dried up a long time ago.
The internet is a tool in the preservation and continuation of Greyhawk as well as many other 'dead' games. It allows us to veiw and use our GH as we each see fit and thats a good thing, Eberron looms large because its made to seem that way, who knows in 25 years Eberron fans may well be clutching to a perilous 'niche' on the cliff walls of the maw of dead settings too someday, but that is not a good thing either.
Omote said:
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I remember hearing somewhere that Eberron is going to be the default game for all new products released for D&D. By this I mean that there are no "generic" adventure modules being released. Every adventure being released in the near future is all for Eberron.
Indeed two adventures from WotC scheduled releases in '04-05 have 2 Eberron setting based adventures in their catalog. But that does not mean the other books and source material are Eberron specific, and although there is support of Eberron right now it hardly means much anyways. Looking at corporate policy to lead your gaming schedule is bound to leave you to be disappointed in the extreme. Much like the older days modules that we use in GH, they rarely had much attached to them in direct connection towards Greyhawk other than a few passages and some blurbs (but what blurbs!), and some of the more infamous Greyhawk modules WG 9 Gargoyle, WG 10 Puppets and WG 11 Childs Play may have had a GH logo on the front cover but dont have it within!
I can remember when there was a boxed set for Greyhawk out and available, but that many DM's and players felt it was Garys world and avoided anything with a World of Greyhawk moniker. (Heresy!). Gamers want to feel free to use their own mateiral and tend to pick and choose, (or loot in some cases!) and dont want to be dictated as to what they had to use in their games. Many people playing back then had their own game settings/world that used those modules in seemlessly and without blinking in their own games. Hardly seems likely now that Forgotten Realms could have been the home of G1-3 Against the Giants or D1-2 Descent into the Depths of the Earth, but it could have happened circa '84 if you were running a home game of your own devising back then you could, and that wasnt a bad thing. Frostburn, Libris Mortis, Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Races of the Wild, Sandstorm and Codex Anathema seem the same type of 'core' setting book that we have seen for a long time and useable in wide variety of settings. If WotC were make Eberron the only setting then I might agree with you but I really dont see that in the product scheduling right now. I think that a point could be made if GH dominated every release, as Eberron is now, the same things that are posted calling out for GH specific materials would be echoed in exact tone from the FR or whatever gameworld crowd that was being ignored. This is Greyhawk, here and now. There is much to use and contribute! Make of it what you will, we can only work to make it better as a whole, not wait for some 'white knight' to appear. We are our own saviors as well as destruction in this matter.
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So if a new edition IS released, do you think that WOTC would release the GREYHAWK setting, and let it be pikced up by another company?
umm I see it as anything on the horizon, a matter to be decided upon as it becomes clearer. (shakes magic 8 Ball) Try Again Later!
umm I see it as anything on the horizon, a matter to be decided upon as it becomes clearer. (shakes magic 8 Ball) Try Again Later!
Lets shake up that Magic 8-Ball then, because with the release of 4th edition, I would love to see another, dedicated Hawker or company pick up the rights to produce material on GH... I would very much like to see the world updated, but not in the way LG is updating the world.
............................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
I would love to see another, dedicated Hawker or company pick up the rights to produce material on GH... I would very much like to see the world updated, but not in the way LG is updating the world.
Heres a thought. If your unhappy with how LG is doing things or need someone or something to lead Greyhawk, go to a mirror and look at that person staring at you, hes the one who can lead you. Greyhawk has endured thanks to people like that guy, who love the setting and use the material, no matter how sparse or plentiful to make the setting come alive at their tables, on forums or just promoting to others. Just because GH lingers on some backburner at the home office means little to a hard core Greyhawker, make GH a real priority within and then these things become easy to deal with.
Good point. However, I've been doing that for years now. I think we all (or most of us anyways) actually yearn for a new Box set or book, or adventure module for many reasons. Lets first say it would give us something to talk about for a long time! Second, I would like to see the GH setting as a whole somewhat offically updated. By that I mean in my campaigns, I don't run world changing events of any magnitude. Also I tend to play in the western Flanaess, and not much in the east. So I would like a source that has updated info on what is transpiring in the east...
ah, lets sit back and think about the beauty a new hardbound book like the FRCS would do for GH...
*sighs*
.................................Omote
FPQ _________________ Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
I think we all (or most of us anyways) actually yearn for a new Box set or book, or adventure module for many reasons.
Thats fine for some, but there is the hear and now, and if this is fodder for conversation my appetite wanes. I would rather discuss on how to utilize what exists rather than squander my thoughts on the whimsy of what can be while I can make something more worthwhile become tangiable.
And on that note why not start a thread on the events of the Eastern Flanaess? I for one have some ideas and thoughts but as I see it this thread, is not for that.
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ah, lets sit back and think about the beauty a new hardbound book like the FRCS would do for GH...
Well why not then expand and pontificate on what can be done with the GH material we have?
Welcome to the forums Nite! Thursday nites is what makes this place come alive, we have a lively debate and community and sounds like you have something to contribute as well. You might drop by on the off nights, we tend to 'burn' pretty bright on the offnights as well. I tend to be there in the evenings and have my laptop open near my desk as I toil on my home game and am always open for a good GH dalliance.
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There's time. But please don't make me wait too long.
OK, well nothing like a challenge, but however lets just say that some of us have been working while others sleep!
It is too me a novel proposition that these or any forums can be quickened to life by resort to chat sessions. A lively chat is just that but is necessarily abbreviated. You type only so fast and so well and while you are doing so, others are doing the same. The result is not a conversation but more akin to a hog calling contest as each contestant shouts for his or her particular porcine prodigy. And it is left to the moderator to call for that laggard swine Greyhawk to pick up the pace, often to the hootings of the other callers after hogs who want to encourage their pet pig and Greyhawk take the hindmost. I think the forums, whatever synergy with the chat, must see to themselves.
And touche! Well, said! There may be hope for this place yet.
NightScreed _________________ NightScreed
- There Can Be Only One
I'm glad you enjoyed the chat Nite! If you had a bit of a harried experience then next time dont cover yourself with so much volatile fuel before coming in. But seriously, its a sink or swim experience if your used to a more sedate atmosphere..Ideas tend to be bandied about quickly and swiftly...but as for the swineherding comments...I'll keep it civil here for now.
Maybe Greyhawk simply needs to be driven around the block once or twice. I think one of the best things for Greyhawk would be for the powers that be to produce a couple of well rounded modules basing the adventure in certain areas specific to Greyhawk. Take the Tomb of the Lizard King for example, that module could be used for any setting, but it was produced naming a specific site in the World of Greyhawk.
A simple set of well defined modules/adventures, imho, would do wonders for Greyhawk. I could be wrong, but let's see what the effect of a nice "official" retro adventure would have. A waterfall begins with the single raindrop
The result is not a conversation but more akin to a hog calling contest as each contestant shouts for his or her particular porcine prodigy. And it is left to the moderator to call for that laggard swine Greyhawk to pick up the pace, often to the hootings of the other callers after hogs who want to encourage their pet pig and Greyhawk take the hindmost. I think the forums, whatever synergy with the chat, must see to themselves.
Poignant commentary from someone who's been around the forum a whole 2 weeks and attended ONE chat in the last 5 years.
Our 'hog calling' didn't seem to stop you from enjoying whatever motive you had for showing up.
Quit trolling this forum, your lonely martyr schtick got old 5 years ago, it's not welcome here. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
Quit trolling this forum, your lonely martyr schtick got old 5 years ago, it's not welcome here.
Good evening everyone. I was riding by when Spindelshanks got spooked. Someone hollered troll and Spindelshanks, a stalwart fellow, hates trolls.
I'm sorry. I forget my manners. Canonfire, meet Spindelshanks. He's my trusty steed. Oh. And is a talking horse. Spindelshanks, meet Canonfire.
"Ohs, I don'ts know Screed. Theys lookn mean at me."
Pish posh. A finer group of people you could not ask to meet. They take themselves too seriously at times but no big deal. Come on. See. There's no troll. Its safe. Come on out from behind those bushes.
::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop::
"Eeeew! Names it troll he does. Its not troll! I knows troll. Its maybe bugbear or humbug or huggermugger. Buts not troll!"
::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop::
"Droll is! Yes, so. I'd like me fancy pants but I ain't got none. My withers is cold. It must be a draft I feel."
::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop::
"Warm'n to it, then. Aaaah! That's is better. Who's ee who sayz is welcome? OH, GAWDS, the king! Is kettle black? And know'n one, takes one? Or iz it two? YES! Yes! Tis two! For I spyz the Queen! Yes. Yes, I do! Oh, what a two to have we hear. Your, Majesties!!! Bows low does I."
::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop:: ::klip-klop::
"What tis then? Tis whats Grey and whats can say or saying nothing, there's nothing to say! And no night, but no light, there never breaks any day. Is all inky, not Grey but gray. Thats as I think. Thats what I say.
Can I hav me oats now? Is we gone?"
No. We are not gone yet, Spindleshanks. But not for want of trying it seems. Besides. If I must go, I can always send you back. The horse without a rider. Its a tradition. And now you won't have to be afraid of these nice people. You can come back often as I. More often even. I bet folks would like that. Now that they've gotten to know you.
And if you lack company there's Dumblydore, my cat. My parrot, Swearmenot. My dog, Sallust. Its a virtual menagerie.
But I don't think I'm going to go anywhere right now except to bed.
Sweet dreams all.
NS
BTW, lonely martyr? Me? I never cared for Slim Whitman. I prefer Hank Jr. and Dwight Yokum. "I got the low down, lonesome, broken hearted Greyhawk Blues. Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo hoo." Cry me a river Chatty, my lad. _________________ NightScreed
- There Can Be Only One
Take a look around the site, the forums and the articles. Learn about who has contributed here and who hasn't.
Then come back and show a little respect to those who built this house.
Till then, shut the hell up, ok?
Is this it? A simple profanity? Not even colorful. No verbal virtuosity. No linguistic legerdemain. No style. No grace. No wit. Poor provender.
But anon.
Respect seems to be a recurring theme with you. I won't speculate.
I will note that I have disrespected no one after the fashion of calling them swine, as has been suggested in some quarters. I called them swineherds calling after hogs. A distinction with a difference and an accurate, if colorful, critique of usual Greychat proceedings. Why you yourself are quick to curse at anyone who dares interupt your topic du jour with a call for Greyhawk in a Greychat. You will even belittle them! I have the right of it, even if it is perhaps overly colorful in phrasing.
Play not the wronged innocent with me. I get the chat logs.
And I think you over value "this house" or sell it short or both.
This house is distinguished by an archive function very easily available to people. That is it. It could be easily duplicated if one so desired. No. I'm not suggesting anything.
As for the posts, I was out cruising the web the other night. Wizards dwarfs the participation here. Not only that but I was on a d20 company website that will remain nameless that had single threads with 4 times the number of posts here in total. You may overvalue this house. I like the view but the property can still stand some improvements.
And do you sell this house short at the same time if it can take no criticism? I think so.
IMO what you have here is a magnificient ediface that is still wanting full occupancy. To achieve as fulsome a participation as the technology deserves, you are going to have to be more welcoming of divergent, even critical, viewpoints. This place is going to have to change after a fashion because right now its not drawing the houseful it should.
This comes directly to the topic of this thread.
4th Edition Greyhawk may be forged online by Greyhawk fans, influenced if you will. Or it may be forged in some room by folks you don't know, who you may not agree with and who may or may not decide to pay any attention to consistency or quality. I like my fate in my hands and say the same for Greyhawk. In my opinion, this site has every trapping of one that should be influential. Presently, I do not believe it to be so.
Gary Hoilian is friends with Erik Mona. Do you imagine Erik is a shoe-in for 4th Edition Greyhawk? I'd like to see it but I do not take it for granted. Do you imagine Holian is the heir apparent because Erik Mona feeds him assignments and gives him play? I'm not yet convinced I want to see that and I certainly don't see it as a given as Holian is a creature of Mona's largesse to this point.
And after them? In short, its not even near a certain thing that Greyhawk will be in good hands or even known ones or any at all.
That is where this site can make a difference but not with the present level of participation and readership. Yeah. I know the numbers. Wizards and the others have you still.
This a boutique site right now. How is that going to change?
If you don't care to see it change, hey, I do no harm. I am simply annoying and when I get sufficiently bored I'll wander off and participate elsewhere. I bet I'm not alone on that and other scores.
If you do care, what are you doing about it? The present course isn't doing the trick. (Although the individualized project forums are a nice touch that few have yet taken advantage of - there it is again).
This is a great site. It just isn't fulfilling its potential. The numbers don't lie when you look at the big picture and not just Canonfire.
I don't have a ready answer but I can pose the question well enough.
I am probably not the best messenger I'll grant. And my reading of the logs, Thursday and otherwise, leads me to believe there is a larger problem here than I at first supposed. To the silent majority of lurkers - visit the chats, Thursaday and otherwise, just be prepared for a rude awakening. Please visit the chats. Then send me an email if you think I'm less crazy than might be supposed. I trust your judgments entirely.
You, Chatso, have taken it upon yourself to stand and be counted for Canonfire. I can respect that. Now besides swearing at me what have you got? How large can you think in terms of this site? I remind again that the present equation is falling short of all but a boutique.
If you imagine I get any great satisfaction out of sparing with you (if I dignify it with that term) while the Greychat crew snipes from the bushes, you are mistaken. I'm not looking for a match and you don't give me much to work with. I enjoyed four years of peace and quiet very well. Canonfire is not necessarily part of Greyhawk in 4th Edition. You fellas want to be Dragonsfoot north? No problem. They are not part of the future either.
I will be part of the future.
Shut up? Can do. Did it for four years if that needs proving. People know where to find me now. This sites utility to me is over unless you would have it otherwise.
Here's too ya.
NS _________________ NightScreed
- There Can Be Only One
Canonfire is not necessarily part of Greyhawk in 4th Edition. You fellas want to be Dragonsfoot north?
It's always been my understanding that Canonfire, unlike Dragonsfoot, was meant to be open to all editions, that include the hypothetical 4th edition. A drastic change in rules systems won't change the content of the setting even if there was 10 editions.
Canonfire is not necessarily part of Greyhawk in 4th Edition. You fellas want to be Dragonsfoot north?
It's always been my understanding that Canonfire, unlike Dragonsfoot, was meant to be open to all editions, that include the hypothetical 4th edition. A drastic change in rules systems won't change the content of the setting even if there was 10 editions.
Open? Canonfire? Technically, yes. Practically, to borrow a phrase, "What this place needs is an enema!" Adjectives. Adjectives. Buttoned-down. Hide-bound. Cramped. Limited. Stiff. That's Canonfire. Just like Dragonsfoot. The reasons are different but the results is the same - constipated conversation that runs (pardon the pun) in certain very defined channels that ultimately diminishes the effort and the content. And just like Dragonsfoot, you step out of the Canonfire "line" and the Powers That Be will let you know officially or unofficially - unofficially chiefly through snipping in the Greychats, Thursday and beyond.
Canonfire needs to loosen up. People need to stop worrying about canon or Gygax or THEIR role, or whatever their thing is and just let the ideas flow. A new whole will naturally arise that will be far more interesting and entertaining and I dare say useful for providing ideas one may not have thought of themselves. Problem is, you can't control that. And like Dragonsfoot, Canonfire has "control issues" to some degree.
4th Edition or not, I'm sure Canonfire will continue. The question is, now and then, will anyone care? 3500 signed up for Canonfire. How many post? What do they post? The Topics? How many average reads? It could be so much more.
I think it will turn out okay. Its just not an easy process. Holian was never the most frequent, adept or flexible poster and with his frequent chatting with the Screaming Devilkin, the Thunder from Downunder and Mr. Egg Fu Kung, its not like he's got a lot of socially sophisticated or adept helpmates to advise him on how to run this place.
I've seen lynch mobs which were more welcoming, thoughtful and polite.
Heyah, mule! Heyah! Don't want to let sundown catch us. _________________ NightScreed
- There Can Be Only One
Open? Canonfire? Technically, yes. Practically, to borrow a phrase, "What this place needs is an enema!" Adjectives. Adjectives. Buttoned-down. Hide-bound. Cramped. Limited. Stiff. That's Canonfire. Just like Dragonsfoot. The reasons are different but the results is the same - constipated conversation that runs (pardon the pun) in certain very defined channels that ultimately diminishes the effort and the content. And just like Dragonsfoot, you step out of the Canonfire "line" and the Powers That Be will let you know officially or unofficially - unofficially chiefly through snipping in the Greychats, Thursday and beyond.
Nobody is forcing you to like frequenting this site. For some one who doesn't have many good things to say about Canonfire, you sure talk it up around here, alot.
Furthermore, I don't think anyone is prohibiting you from creating your own fan-based website. Since you seem to think you have all the answers on what makes a successful one, I think you should give it a shot. "Less talk, more action." _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
[
Canonfire needs to loosen up. People need to stop worrying about canon or Gygax or THEIR role, or whatever their thing is and just let the ideas flow. A new whole will naturally arise that will be far more interesting and entertaining and I dare say useful for providing ideas one may not have thought of themselves. Problem is, you can't control that. And like Dragonsfoot, Canonfire has "control issues" to some degree.
I think those quirks are traits of Greyhawkers in general, not Canonfire! in particular, and an effect of GH's origins and evolution (haphazard at best).
I'm not a big-time Greyhawk fan. My contribution rate has been abyssmally low since I edited the Oerth Journal (and yes, there's a connection). I don't care about what Gygax really meant, or canon I disagree with. But I've never had a problem with some kind of official or unofficial discrimination at Canonfire, despite my lack of Gygaxian allegiance.
Of note to me this morning was the Hasbro announcement that their quarterlies were some $0.06 below WS and company projections. In addition to disappointing returns in general, Hasbro mentioned a decline in game sales. The company also warned that they didn't anticipate making their sales or profit goals for 4th quarter or 04 totals.
What does that mean? I think that any review by the company is going to show that the pen & paper role playing lines aren't as profitable as other lines. That's pretty much a given with increased materials costs and the general problems right now for publishing in general.
I've always been of the opinion that Hasbro bought WotC for the card flopping money. D&D was just sort of there. And that if push ever came to shove, you'd see Hasbro pare off the D&D line as an early attempt to improve performance.
It's not that pen and paper aren't profitable, just that it's not *as* profitable.
One of the first things that I think Hasbro would do, in launching the inevitable 4th Edition (I'd bet '06 as a date), would be to shed those IPs that they view as marginally viable. Greyhawk, in their minds I'm sure, would fit into that category. It's likely that Hasbro would choose to sell the IP for Greyhawk in an attempt to gain some licensing or outright cash return on a property that they view as a sort of lump o' nothin'.
This is mostly conjecture and opinion based on my own experience dealing with the industry in the retail/distribution end.
I think we have crossed over threads here, but I think your analysis, ESILV is correct. The problem for WOTC/HAS is that P&P Roleplaying, and GH in particular is just not profitable enough.
I think that it is a good bet that a) WOTC will not do much more with GH; b) there will be a 4th Ed., and FR will be the core system; c) WOTC will be very reluctant to let GH go, but probably will eventually, because letting it sit on the shelf only degrades the fan base, and thus the value.
This will take a long time to play out, several years at least. That is fine with me though, I think I need say, 5 more years to finish up with what I have now. I do not want a cataclysmic event that I have to incorporate; I doubt that WOTC would even consider any other sort of launch.
I think that the selling of GH to a dedicated Roleplaying company, and LG with it, would be the best thing that could happen. It would have to be a company that is strong on story... the mechanics will take care of themselves as long as the OGL is out there; if they concentrate on story, then it won't matter which edition is played. It will matter that we the fans purchase though.
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
I suspect that neither will it at yours either, Nite.
Second, I would like to see the GH setting as a whole somewhat offically updated. By that I mean in my campaigns, I don't run world changing events of any magnitude. Also I tend to play in the western Flanaess, and not much in the east. So I would like a source that has updated info on what is transpiring in the east...
