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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Religion of Tenser
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    The Religion of Tenser
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:44 am  
    The Religion of Tenser

    Does anyone have any ideas on the religious beliefs (if any) of Tenser? It seems likely that he might be a follower of Heironeous, given his alignment and preference for the color blue...

    Lord Hobie
    GreySage

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    Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:33 pm  

    Lordhobie,

    I know of no written mention regarding Tenser's religious affiliation. However, I would support your claim that if he were to pick a single Power, Heironeous is a good choice. Not only is he Lawful Good (with Neutral tendencies), but he is a champion for "Good" (as he sees it) and uses his considerable magical powers to this end. He is very combative in nature, and has created a spell, Tenser's Transformation, that turns a mage into a staff-wielding berserker. Oh, and yes, he prefers blue...

    If you have access to it, read Tenser's description in the City of Greyhawk boxed set.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:51 am  

    Delleb is also a possibility, but yeah, Heironeous sounds likely.

    Of course, as a non-cleric, there's nothing preventing Tenser from worshiping more than one deity.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:29 pm  

    FWIW, the chapel in the Fortress of Unknown Depths includes statues of Rao, St. Cuthbert, Heironeous, Delleb, Ulaa, and Moradin, among others. As rasgon pointed out, Tenser probably honors all of them (plus Boccob and perhaps Celestian) to some degree.

    Last edited by DMPrata on Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:04 pm  

    My bet is he follows Heireonous, but greatly reveres Boccob. I think Tenser is a little too much of a hothead for Rao, although he could still admire him.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:29 am  

    In what has been published, it appears to me that he prioritizes law over good, perhaps just a bit. (I'm thinking references to the words on the doors or throne room at the Fortress of Nyr Dyv in Return of the Eight, and descriptions that he will resort to geas magic to compel the pursuit of lofty objectives by others.) This would be a subtle distinction, and Tenser does have published associates who are good, but not lawful.

    Perhaps a further question is what Lawful Good or Lawful Neutral deities would he not especially care for? I could see Tenser not venerating Pholtus due to concepts of blind obedience contradicting the pursuit of more knowledge and new magic. Any others?
    GreySage

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    Wed Jul 22, 2015 3:26 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    FWIW, the chapel in the Fortress of Unknown Depths includes statues of Rao, St. Cuthbert, Heireonous, Delleb, Ulaa, and Moradin, among others. As rasgon pointed out, Tenser probably honors all of them (plus Boccob and perhaps Celestian) to some degree.


    Ah, I didn't think of checking Return of the Eight!

    Yes, in that book, Tenser's chapel contains shrines statues of exclusively lawful good deities. Besides the ones you mention, there are statues of Fortubo and Mayaheine.
    GreySage

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    Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:59 am  

    I can't see any Archmage not honoring Boccob and Wee Jas. Both deities would receive at least some veneration from Tenser. Zagyg probably receives "honorable mention" from Tenser a well.

    Wizards do not run around snubbing Gods of Magic. Wink
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    Sun Aug 16, 2015 8:08 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I can't see any Archmage not honoring Boccob and Wee Jas. Both deities would receive at least some veneration from Tenser. Zagyg probably receives "honorable mention" from Tenser a well.

    Wizards do not run around snubbing Gods of Magic. Wink



    I definitely agree that Tenser reveres Boccob, but I'm not so sure about Wee Jas. From a purely magical aspect revering Wee Jas makes sense, but I think Tenser would have major problems with her alignment and ethos, as well as her connection with the undead. I also agree that Tenser (and most if not all the wizards linked to the Circle of Eight) revere Zagyg. If I remember correctly it mentions that fact in the City of Greyhawk boxed set.
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:23 am  

    Note that I said "some," as well as suggesting "honorable mention."

    Think votive candle. Tenser does not get down on his knees and pray to Wee Jas -- or even Zagyg -- as with "full on" worship, but he occasionally lights a candle to acknowledge her position and power over magic itself. That sort of thing.

    But, no, given his alignment, he wouldn't worship her "outright," as it were.

    Remember that Mordenkainen is the "biggest" subject of Boccob, actively striving to "maintain the balance" -- a "Harper" all to himself. Tenser was frustrated with Mordenkainen's efforts to actively "curb" good, which caused their eventual falling out.

    Tenser would know that this attitude originated with Boccob, so Tenser would be "frustrated" with Boccob as well. His "veneration" of Boccob would only be because of Boccob's position . . . Greater God of Magic.

    Nope, no Wizard is going to want to piss him off. Thankfully, Boccob doesn't -- usually -- care.

    But everyone, including a God, has exceptions to their rules!

    Realistically, Tenser would make sure he wasn't one of those exceptions. Laughing
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:54 am  

    Wee Jas actually does have lawful good priests, though. Her lawful good priests wear black robes, her lawful neutral priests wear gray robes, and her lawful evil priests wear white robes. I don't think every mage necessarily reveres her, but Tenser probably wouldn't have a moral problem with it.
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    Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:56 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Delleb is also a possibility, but yeah, Heironeous sounds likely.

    Of course, as a non-cleric, there's nothing preventing Tenser from worshiping more than one deity.


    I have always assumed that most clerics engaged in rituals to honor multiple deities in a polytheistic setting like GH. (Everybody does, except maybe weirdos like some followers of Pholtus. Or goofballs like those Skeptics in Urnst). It's just that a cleric would normally honor one deity above all others as his patron or patroness, and would avoid doing any obeisance to the rivals and enemies of said deity.

    But what is worship? In the broadest sense it could mean offering sacrifices, paying respect to images, and things of that nature. It does not need to be ideological. I figure even chaotic good aligned guys tip the hat to Nerull or Wee Jas at a funeral ceremony. Death is death, whatever your philosophical feelings about the gods of the grave.

    The deeper sort of worship would match up more with alignment. This is the kind of service where a follower looks up to and emulates ideals embodied by the deity.

    YMMV
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:58 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Wee Jas actually does have lawful good priests, though. Her lawful good priests wear black robes, her lawful neutral priests wear gray robes, and her lawful evil priests wear white robes. I don't think every mage necessarily reveres her, but Tenser probably wouldn't have a moral problem with it.


    I prefer to run her as straight LN, the alignment the boxed set gives her.

    This gives a non-evil death deity. That is fun for me.
    GreySage

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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:30 pm  

    Dragon #37 mentions that Tenser is "accompanied by a high-level cleric." Come Endless Darkness features the high priest Timmil, associated with Tenser the Archmage.

    Timmil seems to be good in alignment. He claims at first to be aiding Balance by opposing evil. "You see, the agents of Evil here know full well my efforts against them and on behalf of Balance." On the other hand, later in the book the evil Gravestone contrasts him with Allton, "who seeks the balance."

    Quote:
    "Your priestly friend here says that Nerull is vile; still, I think you know otherwise, for you seek the balance, do you not?"

    "The lord of the pits is reviled!" Allton shot it out without having to consider.

    "True," Timmil affirmed in support.

    "False, quite false," averred the priest-wizard. "Is death wrong? How is there balance against the riotous spawning of life without quiet death? And light — would it not gladly sear your eyes constantly were it not for sweet darkness?"

    "Sophistries!" the priest barked.


    Timmil is described as an "exorcist, abjurer of evil and demonkind, exiler of netherbeings from the realms of mankind." He's called the antithesis of Gravestone, who is a cleric of Nerull. Rao might be an appropriate patron for Timmil, given the powers of the Crook, but Heironeous, Pholtus, and Pelor would also work. Given Tenser's own interest in the Crook of Rao, though, it might make sense for a cleric of Rao to be one of his primary allies.

    Tenser is also allied with Agath of Thrunch, a cleric of Celestian.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:47 pm  

    I have been diving deep into Rob and Gary's recollections of C0-DMing the original Greyahawk campaign (centered on their play groups many raids into Castle Greyhawk) and I think an answer can be found there:

    Source: Greyhawk Lore Project
    This is a compilation of posts by (with links) Robert J. Kruntz and Gary Gygax answering questions about the original Greyhawk campaign (not the published stuff) on Rob's own message boards and on ENWorld primarily.

    Ernie Gygax played Tenser in some of the very first playtests with his sister. Tenser started out Neutral but didn't "see the light" and become good until he pragmatically wanted to use a particular magic item that required a good alignment...

    Quote:
    Q: What about the Crown? I know Robilar knew where it was, and who had it. Wasn’t he making arrangements to buy or trade for it? How did Tenser end up with it? The events associated with the Crown fit right into its artifact status. Two powerful characters end up with their alignment altered due to their involvement with it. The Crown is just Robilar’s precious.

    A: I was not looking for the crown of good, but for the crown of evil. Ernie acquired the crown on a solo adventure, whereas I located the orb on a solo adventure, which I believe was due to a legend lore spell, or errant information by my sage, leading me to it, not exactly what I was looking for, but found it none-the-less. Robilar's alignment was already evil before he found the orb, Ernie was already deathly afraid of him, but he had to make an alignment change to use the crown as he was neutral, he sacrificed money, got rid of his dragons, did penance, all that phony crap (we all called it the big fudgy wudgy, as this all happened in one night's worth of playing time). [RJK] http://piedpiperpublishing.yuku.com/topic/1964


    Given Tenser's original neutral alignment and the recolection of Gary Gygax below, Tenser probably worshiped (or paid lip service to) Boccob. After his "conversion" whether he changed faiths is really up to you...

    Quote:
    Mordenkainen being a mage was indeed a follower of Boccob, and thus generally honored Zagyg. The other magic-users in the group took also did the same. That meant that their cleric would be dedicated to Boccob, and the fighters and others, wanting the benefits of clerical ministrations came along for the ride Boccob was never an active deity in play, and none of the PCs was eager to have Zagyg intervene... [EGG] http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=71486&page=9&pp=15


    All in all, Tenser is what you make of him. I would make him follow whatever god makes the most sense for your campaign...

    my two coppers...

    NOTE: Spelling errors in the quotes were left in from the source material, anything I misspelled in my own sections are on me.
    GreySage

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    Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:08 am  

    Gary Gygax's story "The Five Dragon Bowl" in Night Arrant features a henchman of Tenser named Poztif, a "humorless and sober" cleric of Pholtus.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:02 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Gary Gygax's story "The Five Dragon Bowl" in Night Arrant features a henchman of Tenser named Poztif, a "humorless and sober" cleric of Pholtus.
    Interesting... Given that reference is straight from the horse's mouth, perhaps substituting Pholtus for St. Cuthbert in RotE would be more sensible.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:37 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    rasgon wrote:
    Gary Gygax's story "The Five Dragon Bowl" in Night Arrant features a henchman of Tenser named Poztif, a "humorless and sober" cleric of Pholtus.
    Interesting... Given that reference is straight from the horse's mouth, perhaps substituting Pholtus for St. Cuthbert in RotE would be more sensible.


    Why not both?
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:28 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    Why not both?
    Because they're rivals. It's unlikely any but the most pragmatic would honor both Ehlonna and Obad-hai, for instance.
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    Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:52 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Why not both?
    Because they're rivals...


    -Meh. Tenser seems the ecumenical sort. Wink If he had cleric followers of both, they might have issues, but it's not like they'd be getting into fistfights (I think Laughing). In so far as Tenser would have a problem with Pholtus or St. C, it would be that neither is "LG" enough.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:52 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    jamesdglick wrote:
    Why not both?
    Because they're rivals...


    -Meh. Tenser seems the ecumenical sort. Wink If he had cleric followers of both, they might have issues, but it's not like they'd be getting into fistfights (I think Laughing). In so far as Tenser would have a problem with Pholtus or St. C, it would be that neither is "LG" enough.
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