Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Touring the Flanaess
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly Denizens
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Kord's Spheres
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Kord's Spheres
    Author Message
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:02 am  
    Kord's Spheres

    (Linked from the General Forum site)

    What Spheres do you think are appropriate for Kord?

    I am in a discussion with my DM/fellow player on just this account, for the two sources I have in my possession (namely, The Scarlet Brotherhood and From the Ashes) cite quite different Spheres, with only a bit of overlap between the two.

    In case you don't have access to these two sources, here is the discrepancy-

    Scarlet Brotherhood: Major spheres: All, Combat, Healing; Minor spheres: Chaos, Creation, Divination, Protection, Travelers

    From the Ashes: Major spheres: All, Combat, Summoning; Minor spheres: Creation, Healing, War, Weather

    As a sidenote, I am pretty dissatisfied that he is so limited in his spheres, given that he is considered an Intermediate Power. Confused

    Please offer your suggestions.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:28 pm  

    The spheres system is not so well dialed in. Good idea, but not enough time was put into implementing it.

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=943

    That version could be fine-tuned and fleshed out a heck of a lot more. In most cases, the sphere access is about the spells therein, not the name of the sphere, but I created that list early on in my efforts, so I would likely drop some of those spheres altogether, instead adding just those spells from such spheres that would be most appropriate to the "Add:"-ed spells section. I'd also add some new and unique spells, plus double check the full spell roster from the Priest's Spell Compendium to see if there are any other appropriate spells to add.

    As another option, if you do not want to use that list, or make one of your own, you could always just use the basic Cleric spheres from the 2E PHB.
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
    Posts: 860
    From: Woonsocket, RI, USA

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:31 pm  

    I wish I'd archived it, but Len Lakofka wrote a Suel Priest Spheres document that was hosted on the old Codex of Greyhawk. I checked, but archive.org doesn't have that page backed up. Reconstructing from the spells I allowed Kord's clerics in the Deitybase, I think I used the following spheres:

    ALL
    ASTRAL
    CHARM
    COMBAT
    CREATION
    DIVINATION
    Guardian
    SUMMONING
    Sun

    (Also, he's a greater god IMC, because Len Lakofka said so.)
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:20 pm  
    Re: Kord's Spheres

    The strength of a deity shouldn't really determine the number of spheres; the interests of the deity should. Power determines what spell levels they grant. That said, those are very lacking sphere lists. My suggestion would be the following:
    Major: All, Combat, Healing, Protection, Summoning
    Minor: Chaos, Creation, Divination, Necromantic, Travelers

    If you want a bit more, you can add Elemental Water, Earth, or Weather, as they can be seen as altering the local environment to make conditions better for athletic competitions or combat.

    Jeff
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 11, 2009
    Posts: 227
    From: Montgomery, Alabama

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:31 pm  

    I was never satisfied with the spheres available to most priests. I understand why spheres were added, as a way to balance the granted powers and abilities of specialty priests, but I think in most cases they are far too limiting. For example, priests of Boccob aren't even granted minor access to the healing sphere so they can't cast a simple Cure Light Wounds spell. I think a priest unable to cast even basic healing spells is pointless (at least a good or neutral priest that is). To me that's like saying a thief can't pick locks or a wizard can't cast spells that inflict damage. Priests are capable of doing many wondrous things, but without at least basic healing spells I think you rob them of their most iconic ability. I also agree with AuldDragon when he said a deity's strength shouldn't determine available spheres, but his interests should. In that case a deity of fire shouldn't have access to the elemental water sphere, for instance.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:27 pm  

    xo42 wrote:
    I was never satisfied with the spheres available to most priests. I understand why spheres were added, as a way to balance the granted powers and abilities of specialty priests, but I think in most cases they are far too limiting. For example, priests of Boccob aren't even granted minor access to the healing sphere so they can't cast a simple Cure Light Wounds spell. I think a priest unable to cast even basic healing spells is pointless (at least a good or neutral priest that is). To me that's like saying a thief can't pick locks or a wizard can't cast spells that inflict damage. Priests are capable of doing many wondrous things, but without at least basic healing spells I think you rob them of their most iconic ability.


    I think breaking the stereotype that priest=healbot is a GOOD thing. Not all deities will care about healing injuries. Many may be NPC-oriented priests, like abjurers and diviners, and a party that *does* include them will just operate like any party that includes no priests. They're certainly not useless, and neither are wizards who have no damage spells. They just don't perform the *stereotyped* duties of that class. No one would be forced into playing a specialty priest without access to Healing, any more than a player would be forced into playing an abjurer or diviner.

    Jeff
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:45 am  

    I think the justification behind why Boccob doesn't grant Healing Sphere is b/c he is 'Uncaring.'

    Back to Kord's Spheres. Please offer rationale why each of you opts for the Spheres you have picked. I am in a quandary as to which ones I prefer from the two sets given by "From the Ashes" and "The Scarlet Brotherhood," especially with Llerg (God of Beasts, and close ally of Kord) as a backdrop comparison.

    appreciatively,

    Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

    Send private message
    Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:20 pm  

    Kord's portfolios are listed as: Athletics, sport, brawling, strength, courage; based on these and some skimming of his personality in FtA and SB, my thinking is:

    Major:
    All -- Every priest-class character should have access to the All sphere; any who doesn't should have a VERY good reason not to.
    Combat -- Kord's priests are pretty clearly melee combat-oriented folk if they need to defend themselves, so this sphere is pretty much a given. For much the same reason I didn't give them access to War; they don't seem oriented towards mass combat, leading troops, etc.
    Healing -- Priests with a combat focus almost always end up with Healing in my view; priests who are more likely to spend time inside in non-combat situations may not get access to it.
    Protection -- Protection is a very good sphere for melee combat priests specifically, and all priests generally.
    Summoning -- While a lot of these spells summon creatures or objects, more importantly are spells that summon power from a deity, which is important for priests in general. In particular, there are spells to improve ability and proficiency checks, which would be very important to an athletics oriented priest.

    Minor:
    Chaos -- I generally only give chaos and law when the deities seem to focus on the ethos over the morality of their alignments; i.e. are they chaotic GOOD or CHAOTIC good? The description of Kord seemed to put emphasis on his chaotic aspect.
    Creation -- Honestly this was only because both other lists gave it.
    Divination -- Divination is generally just a good sphere to have; I tend to give it to most priests unless there is a good reason not to (too many other appropriate spheres, etc.).
    Necromantic -- There are some very appropriate low level necromantic spells for restoring fatigue and the like.
    Travelers -- With a focus on athletics, travelling to athletic competitions would be important, so access to some of these spells would be handy.

    Jeff
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:22 pm  

    Thank you for your rationale.

    I agree with most of your reasons, but thinking that Summoning (major) is not necessary to bolster one's own stats; minor will do that just fine. Major to Summoning involves bringing forth animals, weather, and denizens of other realms, which I don't see in his portfolio.

    I like your defense for access to Travelers (minor), as I was personally grappling how to justify that sphere.

    Wondering about your stance with Weather sphere...

    Not sure about Divination, as he doesn't strike me as a Power interested in knowledge or information. But, then again, his close ally, Llerg the Beast God, is granted it, so maybe...

    Neither book gives him Necromantic (minor) but I can see how this would be useful to his priests in their daily activities.

    thank you,

    Lanthorn
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:10 pm  

    Weather can influence a battle, so MAYBE that could work for Kord priests.

    Divination..perhaps in the realm of intel about the enemy. That's what I come up with on that. Knowing the enemy's capabilities can help in defeating the enemy.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

    Send private message
    Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:45 pm  

    If you demote Summoning, promote another sphere (or do some other rearranging), as you want a good selection of spells. Certain spheres are sort of "defaults" when you want to flesh out a priest as well, such as Divination, Healing, Protection, and Summoning. That's not to say they should all have them, but unless there is an element of the deity's portfolio actually *opposed* to it, and they don't otherwise already have a good selection of spheres or are directly opposed to the element of the sphere, they can be used to enhance their selection. Don't get *too* hung up on whether the sphere fits into their portfolio list. With the diversity of spheres, and often very specific nature of portfolios, if you stick just to those that fit very closely to the portfolios, you can end up with priests with a poor selection of spells. Deities want their priests to have a good selection of tools to serve them, after all.

    As for weather, as BlueWitch said, it can influence battles, and more importantly, athletic competitions. Personally, I felt it wasn't a very good choice, but you can definitely swap it in for something in my selections you don't agree with (such as Divination or Summoning).

    Jeff
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:49 am  

    You would need Major Access to Weather in order to really affect grand areas of territory. Minor Access gives very limited control, although I added "Aura of Comfort" to the Weather Sphere (it is currently under the Travelers Sphere).

    In perusing the Necromantic (Minor) spells, I can see some strong arguments proposing that Kord grant his priests access to those lower level spells, especially the following: Remove Fatigue, Restore Strength, and Aid (although it is also a Combat Sphere spell under Spells & Magic). I don't see his priests really talking with dead spirits all that often or pretending to be dead, but the other spells are very helpful and seem to fall in line with his overall portfolio.

    I am still 'debating' with my fellow colleague about Weather access, unfortunately. Confused Oh well, you cannot win them all!

    -Lanthorn
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:03 pm  

    There is also the option of allowing a priest access to a few spells from a sphere, without actually giving them total access to the sphere. Greyhawk Adventures did it with some of the priests of deities written up in there (in addition to making a few unique spells for priests of certain deities).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

    Send private message
    Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:12 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    You would need Major Access to Weather in order to really affect grand areas of territory. Minor Access gives very limited control, although I added "Aura of Comfort" to the Weather Sphere (it is currently under the Travelers Sphere).


    Yes, but you have Faerie Fire and Obscurement, which are useful in combat, and Predict Weather (level 1) and Weather Prediction (Level 3), which are useful for deciding whether it is a good idea to engage in battle or hold athletic competitions. And, of course, Call Lightning is a pretty good outdoor combat spell.

    Jeff
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3776
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:09 am  

    "Useful in combat" is too broad a criteria. "Useful in Kord's brand of combat" is a better criteria. Probably why Auldragon left out the War sphere (Kord is not a battle leader, but one who dives into the fray). The "Add (spell):" section is there for reason, and it is best used to add spells from Spheres that are otherwise not enough in-character for the faith in question. There is no rationale for giving priests of Kord faerie fire for instance, but there would be for a spell like free action (even though Kord does not exactly exemplify the Charm sphere, though protection from charm type magic would be in-character; yet another reason why I would modify my previous list of spheres). The former is trickery of its own kind (not in-character); the latter allows one to not be physically hindered, thus able to showcase one's full physical prowess (in-character).

    Also, Brian Blessed must voice Kord in any animated feature. Laughing
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -


    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

    Send private message
    Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:37 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    "Useful in combat" is too broad a criteria. "Useful in Kord's brand of combat" is a better criteria.


    I fully agree. Kord is called "the Brawler" for a reason. He is not the deity of generals and commanding armies. The spells he grants his priests should reflect his preference for one-on-one (and MAYBE small groups of allies) combat.

    Cebrion wrote:
    Also, Brian Blessed must voice Kord in any animated feature. Laughing


    Definitely. Or a reasonable facsimile, if the makers of this hypothetical GH animated feature decide to cheap out on voice actors.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum


    Forums ©


    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.44 Seconds