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    Canonfire :: View topic - Enchantment/Charm Penalties to Unconscious/Sleeping Targets?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Enchantment/Charm Penalties to Unconscious/Sleeping Targets?
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:05 am  
    Enchantment/Charm Penalties to Unconscious/Sleeping Targets?

    A new question:

    Do unconscious or sleeping victims accrue a saving throw penalty to enchantment/charm spells that affect the mind (such as Charm Person or Monster and the like)?

    It comes down to this: is the victim's unconscious mind 'strong' or 'alert' enough to resist the effects of these spells to avoid a saving throw penalty, or does it require an active or conscious mind?

    If a saving throw penalty is leveled, what is the rating?

    -Lanthorn, the Active Inquisitor
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
    Posts: 129
    From: Maryland, USA

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    Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:19 pm  

    There's no active resistance, so if the spell specifies the creature must actively resist it, or has a bonus/penalty based on actively resisting, then that applies. If the spell just has a saving throw with no modifiers, then being unconscious has no effect. An unconscious character might not be aware of being targeted of such a spell if the description indicates they might notice if the saving throw is successful. I don't see any reason the Charm spells would be more likely to affect a sleeping character, though.

    Jeff
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2530
    From: LG Dyvers

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    Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:40 am  

    I say that you may make a special determination, as the DM, based upon the PC's personality and alignment.

    I say that because I know of many instances in my own dreams wherein I specifically refused to act in a certain manner because it was contrary to my nature and moral character to act that way in real life. Usually, such situations in my dreams would wake me, but not always. I would just remember the instance after waking and marvel that, even in my dreams, I wouldn't act that way.

    So, take that anecdotal evidence as you will and see if it adds spice to your game.

    SirXaris
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:37 am  

    Regular saving throw.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:17 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Regular saving throw.


    Works for me. Appreciate the input.

    -Lanthorn
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 05, 2007
    Posts: 290
    From: The Pomarj

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    Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:05 am  

    So, what are people's opinions regarding magic resistance in this situation? After all, elves do have the innate resistance to charm type spells.

    My thought on this is, the resistance would still apply. My understanding of how magic resistance works is that it is there unless the character willingly drops it.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2440
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:51 am  

    Magic resistance always applies unless the creature willingly surrenders that innate ability.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 21, 2016
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    Thu May 05, 2016 1:42 pm  

    Attacks vs sleeping or held characters automatic hits. Spells too. MR does kick in though as this is innate.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 12, 2014
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    From: Maryland, USA

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    Thu May 05, 2016 4:16 pm  

    Rom wrote:
    Attacks vs sleeping or held characters automatic hits. Spells too. MR does kick in though as this is innate.


    If the spell only requires an attack roll (i.e. shocking grasp, cause light wounds, etc.), then yes, it is automatic. If it requires failing a saving throw (even failing a saving throw for half damage) to take effect, then no, it isn't automatic. You have to intentionally voluntarily fail a saving throw for a spell to automatically take effect, and you can't voluntarily fail a saving throw while asleep or held.

    Jeff
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