Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Of Libraries & Literacy in the Flanaess
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Of Libraries & Literacy in the Flanaess
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 25, 2004
    Posts: 17
    From: Turn around

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 12, 2004 6:09 pm  
    Of Libraries & Literacy in the Flanaess

    I found this topic interesting at the Wizards site and thought I would crosspost my reply.

    On the topic of libraries, one can choose to transplant something of a modern public library to Greyhawk without difficulty. I would suggest something nicely Victorian in such case. Roleplaying admits of anachronism without complaint. And Victorian libraries are quite atmospheric, as well has having examples readily at hand.

    One can also chose other models. However, a distinction should be drawn between public and private libraries.

    In the medieval period, specifically that time before printing presses when all manuscripts were copied by hand with any number illuminated, there was no real public library as we know it. Most of the public could not read and the idea of lending out a book to the general public to read was largely unthinkable. Monastic libraries were not public, as we use that term, but did house substantial collections, nonetheless.

    In Imperial Rome, however, public lending libraries were common. In the fourth century, Rome had no less than 28 public libraries from which books could be checked out. Julius Caesar planned Greek and Latin public libraries to provide ease of access to legal codes. Augustus actually carried out the plan. The most popular volumes in the Roman libraries, however, were volumes of poetry. Prose literature was also available, as well as political tracts, orations and rhetoric. When one recognizes that poets, such as Virgil, made a living praising the emperor, it is not difficult to imagine the political utility of a library in addition to the practical. Grammars, philosophies and histories were also available to the public. Documents of state (also housed in archives and registers as distinct from libraries) formed another general category, as did books of prophecy. Many libraries adjoined temples.

    It was not uncommon for libraries to not only hold collections of books truly collected but to also hold collections of donated works, which authors would provide to the library to better secure their fame. Hmmmm.

    Before the advent of printing presses and even medieval manuscripts, books were more properly species of scrolls. The volumina were rolls of 20, 30 or 40 feet. These were the chief holdings of the libraries. Libri were excerpts, although not exclusively, from the volumina generally on papyrus or parchment. Libelli were much more brief documents, unique from the volumina and libri. Each of the three categories were scrolls or rolls but the libri and libelli, particularly the libelli, could be thought of as very early books as we would later know them in terms of presenting their contents in discrete units, less than a single undivided whole.

    The scrolls or rolls were contained in either capsa or scrinium. The capsa was a box large enough to hold a single roll. The capsa had a lid, which sometimes had a handle, hinge and lock. The scrinium was likewise a box but was much larger and designed to hold multiple rolls.

    Each of the capsa and scrinium were contained in armarium. The armarium was essentially a cupboard-like bookcase, divided into sections where the volumes were placed horozontially. Titles were attached to the end pieces.

    The idea of the modern “stacks” was most closely approximated by the loculamentum.

    Catalogs or indexes of contents of the Roman library were kept, not unlike such are today. The best guide to a library, however, would likely be the staff. The procurator bibliothecarum was the official in charge of libraries. Sub-positions known were the procurator bibliothecis and the magister bibliotheca. The general administrator of an individual library was the bibliotheca and also bibliothecarius. The assistant librarian was the vilicus bibliotheca. Finally, there was the librarius, who might well have been a public slave, servi publici librarius.

    In addition to public libraries, Rome had established public schools, bookshops and literary circles which all prized the written word. As relates to the last, private libraries were all the rage at several points. The public baths, somewhat unexpectedly, also fostered a literary culture and offered patrons access to books within the bath. Finally, there were the Acta, or acts, of the Senate. The most notable of these was the Acta Diurna, which in being widely circulated and recording government spending, births, deaths, marriages, divorces, fires, murders and court proceedings, were not unlike an early newspaper.

    The present Vatican Library, in part, is the best surviving example of a functioning ancient library. While various sections date from different periods, there is a section that closely approximates what it is believed the ancient public library looked like. This includes examples of the pluteus, an ancient style of reading desk that was a fixture of Roman libraries. I see the Great Library of Greyhawk in this line.

    Turning back then to Greyhawk, of the human races now inhabiting the Flanaess, the Suel appear to have the oldest literary culture, to judge by the Suloise calander. I give to them the characteristics of the Roman library system. The Oeridians I imagine to have progressed more in line with the medieval manuscript makers and thus in lands predominantly Oeridian I locate no public libraries, unless the Oeridians are copying the Suel. I see this only in Rel Astra. The Baklunish and those most directly influenced by them, directly or through trade, I allow printing, recognizing that the printing press is not a sure sign of modernity as the Koreans and Chinese both printed texts without advancing to Western standards of technology.

    The City of Greyhawk is a melting pot. I think it violates any particular rule and takes something of the best from everywhere. This is said out of no great love for the City of Greyhawk but rather from the central role it takes in canon, for good or ill. In the City of Greyhawk then, I would see the public library system as Suloise in its main administration but admitting of non-lending collections of illuminated type manuscripts.

    Of printed matters, I do not see a large scale adoption for four reasons.

    First, printing is not aesthetically pleasing as a general matter. Greyhawk is of a nature where ownership of goods is personal and not corporate or even pre-corporate. There is a pride in personalized ownership that values the unique character of the possession. Magic items, which are uniquely crafted, are a chief example that bleed over into general considerations of possession. At the same time, the feudal mindset also places value on the unique quality of possession. The age of the fungible has not overtaken Greyhawk.

    Second, a strong magical tradition can make no use of printing. This discourages the use of printing subtly, though not overtly. A powerful segment of society will be at best apathetic to printing with likely advice to those elites who take their counsel.

    Third, literate populations in the Flanaess are not large enough to make printing economically necessary or viable. I believe the Flanaess grossly underpopulated but if you extrapolate historic literacy rates onto the Greyhawk populations given, the level of literacy outside the major urban centers is stark, and even within those cities. This is not helped by the Greyhawk Wars and likely repressive regimes that would suppress literacy as a threat to their rule or just because they see no value to them in promoting literacy.

    Fourth, of those literate populations, there is no one faith that would see its holy book mass produced and there is no great orthodoxy to challenge. The rise of printing in Europe was greatly helped along both by a single, dominant faith, Christianity, and the rising schism within the chief expression of that faith, Catholicism. In Greyhawk, a rampant polytheism diminishes any one faith’s broader investment in its liturgy and precepts of devotion. There are just not that many adherents to any one faith, in the main (the Pale being an exception within its sphere). At the same time, there is a remarkable general tolerance for multiple faiths. No faith is strictly monotheistic. The result is less of an immediate utility for printing.

    Taken together, I believe these factors greatly limit the popularity of printing. It is known but it does not displace the more typical pseudo-medieval model.

    Consideration, however, must also be given to the demi-humans. This turns out to be not much consideration for the cliche nature of demi-humanity in the Flanaess. The elves are isolationist or are going into the East or both. The dwarves are hidden away in their mountain or hilly fastness, only peaking out in the Principality of Ulek, in the main. Halflings, and gnomes, are largely an afterthought. These sort (what would we do without Mr. Tolkien) are unlikely to heavily influence anything.

    Certainly, the elves are likely a literate race. Their age, significant sophistication, ready access to materials and magical ability all suggest literacy.

    Dwarves are more likely pre-literate, not illiterate. Dwarves are not magical, as are the elves (3rd Edition notwithstanding). Dwarves do not have easy access to materials, being more likely to carve in stone than anything else. And dwarves are altogether less sophisticated in their presentation. Writing is likely known but literacy is not wide spread. An average dwarf likely reads a rune like one can distinguish a stop sign from a yield sign based on shape. The dwarf does not read the rune but recognizes that it carries a specific, if generalized, meaning from its distinct appearance.

    If more were said of halflings and gnomes, some hypothesis could be formed more readily about their literary culture, whatever it might be. So little is said, that it appears that whatever their literacy, it has negligible impact beyond their own limited range. Personally, I see both as literate after the fashion of those they most closely surround but to a lesser degree. Both gnomes and halflings are culturally pastoral in a way that suggests no great emphasis on literacy.

    Interesting topic IMO.

    NS
    _________________
    NightScreed
    - There Can Be Only One
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 03, 2002
    Posts: 39
    From: Kingston, ON

    Send private message
    Wed Oct 13, 2004 5:34 am  

    Thanks Nightscreed, normally such a volume of information would require a trip to the library. Exclamation

    I can only nod and agree to most of your comments. Public libraries would be, for the most part, non-exisitant due to lack of need or insurmountable logistics to make them viable. Private collections would be coveted and protected and be the realm of scholars, nobles, priests and mages.

    I think you hit the likelihood of libraries by culture squarely on the head. Such occurences would be as much a function of history and permanency of the culture as individual cultural attitudes exhibited towards printed material.

    Mechanics-wise in the game, it is a great DM tool to have PCs find written material giving clues or hints in some strange language. The prevelance of this device used through many published products suggest a higher literacy rate across the Flanaess. But for the general population, I think literacy would be very low, kept that way on purpose as a political tool or just due to societal factors that would limit the peasant's time and opportunity to acquire the ability to read.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 05, 2002
    Posts: 1049
    From: Sky Island, So Cal

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 14, 2004 9:14 am  

    Interesting post. I agree with most of it and would just add a detail.

    "Third, literate populations in the Flanaess are not large enough to make printing economically necessary or viable. I believe the Flanaess grossly underpopulated but if you extrapolate historic literacy rates onto the Greyhawk populations given, the level of literacy outside the major urban centers is stark, and even within those cities. This is not helped by the Greyhawk Wars and likely repressive regimes that would suppress literacy as a threat to their rule or just because they see no value to them in promoting literacy."

    I would agree that the vast majority of the human population would not be literate and that printing of BOOKS would be very rare indeed. However, one of the first things to be mass - printed was not books, but playing cards.

    Wood-block printed playing cards would be fairly common, IMO, even where books themselves were rare.
    _________________
    My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 06, 2003
    Posts: 119
    From: The FAIRest VIEW in the PARK

    Send private message
    Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:40 am  

    Bringing up the topic of literacy, the way I run my games Literacy is an "option" if you will. I'm not a fan of the way D&D v3.5 handles this. One skill point should not equal full literacy for a selected language.

    This is what I do to make languages and literacy a more important aspect to my games:

    A language is borken down into two components; SPEAK & LITERACY. When a PC is created, all AUTOMATIC LANGUAGES a PC receives gets 10 "language Skill Points"(per automatic language) to split only between speak & literacy of that particular automatic language.

    If the language is a BONUS LANGUAGE, the PC receives 5 "Language Skill Points" to allocate between Speak and Literacy for that particular bonus language.

    From then on, any time a PC receives more Skill Points, they may allocate skill points to either the Speak component or the Literacy component to a chosen language (new language or existing one) if they wish.

    For automatic languages, and bonus languages I do not use MAX SKILL RANKS. I do use max skill ranks for other languages that a PC picks up as he advances in levels. All language skills in this system are considered Class Skills for every class, EXCEPT for the Barbarian class (Cross-Class).

    When making a skill check for a particular language, I usually set the DC to 10. So when in the Baklunish West, and you need to broker a deal with a merchant, you had better make that DC 10 Baklunish language skill roll!

    I have found that this system has worked extremely well in my games.

    I have also given PCs special bonuses to the neccessary "language skill" if they sucessfully read or research a book of a particular language. Like I might say to the PC after reading an ancient Baklunish book, that they receive a +2 Misc. bonus to reading the Ancient Baklunish Language Skill.

    So on and so forth...

    Books are not popular, and neither is literacy in my campaigns, per se. This language system plays up to the fact that Literacy and the ability to speak 10 different languages is not common.


    Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the topic Wink , but it kinda seemed pertinent.

    .....................Omote
    FPQ
    _________________
    Prince Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Castles and Crusades Society
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
    Posts: 1446


    Send private message
    Thu Oct 14, 2004 1:08 pm  

    Omote wrote:
    Bringing up the topic of literacy, the way I run my games Literacy is an "option" if you will. I'm not a fan of the way D&D v3.5 handles this. One skill point should not equal full literacy for a selected language.

    .....................Omote
    FPQ


    Interesting postings.

    Omote, I agree with you. While I think your system is probably "better" than mine in the sense that it seems more "realistic." I make characters spend 1 skill point to speak to be understood, 1 skill point to speak without difficulty and 1 skill point to speak fluently. The same applies to reading/writing. They spend 1 skill point to read/write well enough and another if they wish no problems at all. Calligraphy is another skill altogether. This system has the virtue of simplicity but not giving away the store either.
    _________________
    GVD
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
    Posts: 1077
    From: Orlane, Gran March

    Send private message
    Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:06 am  
    Libraries and Schools

    In a non GH game Shocked , in which I am a player, we recently went through an exercise of identifying all known libraries and schools in the lands.

    This would be a great exercise for GH. Where do you go to become a Shadow Dancer, a Silent One, a Wizard, Cleric or Paladin?

    A starting Canon list would be good, but then one of any fleshed out locales in home games would be good. As long as it is not directly in my home area, it is useful. If it is, I might transport it a few hexes away, and still use it. I think most other DM's would feel the same about schools that you use.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jan 23, 2004
    Posts: 20
    From: California

    Send private message
    Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:46 pm  

    In regards to NS's original post in this thread. Very nice. Spawns many game ideas for me (we'll see if they ever go from grey matter to paper).

    In regards to Anced Math's comment, another interesting project would be to list and briefly describe the various books, scrolls, and tomes mentioned in published GH canon...
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
    Posts: 3835
    From: So. Cal

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am  

    Or do both- post a list of libraries, other enclaves of lore(loremasters), venerable sages, etc. and the lore they specialize in. Characters might consult a library/sage on a speciality lore, which might allow finding out information with a high DC rating(in 3e terms). Standard information might reach a DC of 20 or so, specialties a DC of 30 to 40(or even higher for those holy hermit sages who are at one with the universe! Happy ).

    A sort of "where it is and what its got" list would be good. Here is an example:

    The Library of Greyhawk:
    (Location: The Free City of Greyhawk)

    Area of study............................DC Rating
    General Inforamtion.............................25
    Knowledge: Arcana..............................50

    Special Texts/Information
    Within its inner vaults, the Libray of Greyhawk houses these additional works:

    The Demonomicon of Iggwilv(Restricted Access)
    etc....
    _________________
    - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 630
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:20 pm  

    This relatively long post begins to respond to Nightscreed's assertions about the use of libraries in Greyhawk. Because of limited time, I cannot respond completely at present. (Indeed, constraints on my time kept my response from being prompt.)

    Instead of quoting signifcant parts of the original post, my responses track its emplotment. This one deals with the syncretism of the Suel and Oeridian cultures -- as pertinent to the subject of libraries.

    While I agree that the calendar of the Suel Imperium suggests that ancient Suel culture predates that of the Oeridians, I dispute the suggestion that the Oeridians failed to develop public libraries in the centuries of their hegemony of the Flanaess.

    Whereas Nightscreed suggests that "Oeridian" public libraries mimic ancient Suel culture, this characterization is too simple. Instead, as we've sometimes discussed on GreyTalk, the cultures of the various human societies on the Flanaess during the Common Years are better understood as syncretic. Also, abstract assertions that purport to cover the entirety of the Flanaess lack significant utility.

    Nightscreed mentioned Rel Astra, so this post elaborates ideas about the blending of ancient Suel and old Oeridian cultures. First, I integrate the history advanced in the LGG: Rel Astra, the site of the first Grand Prince of Aerdi (of the Celestial House of Garasteth), is atop an older inhabitation of the refugee Suel. Likely this site was conquered by the princes of Garasteth. (Also, the Suel settlement was likely atop a township of an ancient Flan kingdom. Refer to Rasgon's post of the same name -- and the discussion that ensued.)

    Likely the Suel, who inhabited what became Rel Astra lacked the time to produce a recognizable public library. Instead, their leaders likely retained whatever written lore they held -- perhaps in several stronghold-houses. We might imagine otherwise, however, and if we wanted a public library amongst these Suel, then it could be that the Flan settlement was the site of a temple to Allitur (although I forget if Rasgon suggested keeping that god away from this region). Then, if this building was not destroyed by the conquering Suel, it might become the basis of a shrine to Wee Jas, and this place might provide an initial site of records-keeping, which Nightscreed indicates should be understood as distinct from a "public library."

    Now one could hold that the Celestial House of Garasteth merely copied this quasi-library and thereafter only developed "libraries" along a medieval (scholastic) "model." However, I suggest that this would cut too short shrift for the Garasteth. Instead, the princes of this Celestial House of Aerdi should be understood to know well the value of books and other written records. After all, Garasteth was and remains the preeminent house of wizardry in the (former) Great Kingdom.

    With syncretism in mind, Rel Astra seems a fine place for the Garasteth to incorporate certain aspects of the Suel culture that once settled where Rel Astra now sits. Certainly many of the Suel were killed as the settlement was conquered. However, it makes sense for the (relatively noble) Oeridians to spare those who swore fealty to the grand prince. In this way the magical power of the Garasteth improved, and the seeds of intrigue were planted.* (See the recent development of the takeover of Rel Astra's guild of wizardry by the mysterious "Dweomermasters" -- not the best name but interesting.)

    * Not keeping the cat in the bag (again because if I don't write it now, I might not later), I suggest that these Dweomermasters could include folks who trace their lineage to the ancient Suel Mages of Power. Gary Holian and others have suggested that Suel "power magic" could be represented by the spontaneous arcane magicks of D&D's sorcerer class.

    If one accepts some of what I attempted to evoke above, then I can summarize here. In Rel Astra, the present-day "public libraries" of the City of the Heavens trace their existence back from the rule of the Lord Mayors to the priesthoods of Delleb (an Oeridian god and ideal sponsor for libraries), which in turn seized this function (and likely the original building, which probably no longer survives -- but might!) from the priesthood of Wee Jas, which in turn jealously guarded the secrets recorded by priests of Allitur.
    This summary should be read with appreciation for the millenium in which the process unfolded. Some forty generations of humanity transpired in this time. Childbirth and socialization produced people who cannot be usefully distinguished only on the basis of Suloise or Oeridian. Instead, one must chart families subordinate to (yet competing with) the Celestial House of Garasteth.

    As I end, think not this process only occurred at Rel Astra. Look to the west and imagine the history of Rel Deven -- the second of Aerdy's "Cities of Enlightenment."
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 25, 2004
    Posts: 17
    From: Turn around

    Send private message
    Sun Oct 17, 2004 8:42 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    While I agree that the calendar of the Suel Imperium suggests that ancient Suel culture predates that of the Oeridians, I dispute the suggestion that the Oeridians failed to develop public libraries in the centuries of their hegemony of the Flanaess.

    Whereas Nightscreed suggests that "Oeridian" public libraries mimic ancient Suel culture, this characterization is too simple. Instead, as we've sometimes discussed on GreyTalk, the cultures of the various human societies on the Flanaess during the Common Years are better understood as syncretic. Also, abstract assertions that purport to cover the entirety of the Flanaess lack significant utility.


    On the first point, I chose to use a different model for the Oeridians to have a variety of systems available for play and to avoid undercutting too broadly the pseudo-medieval feel of the Flanaess that might come about with too common public lending libraries.

    If you are suggesting that canon has it otherwise, I think you are reading a great deal too much into canon. There is no canon on point and canon can suggest a variety of outcomes. Canon should not, in any case, stand in the way of imagination or creativity. But that would be Greytalk.

    Syncretism might be either cultural or religious.

    Culturally, the Suel and Baklunish stand strongly against any syncretic impulse. The Suel deny or denigrate other cultures or relgate them to positions of inferiority, practically if not declaredly, depending on the nation. The Baklunish are isolated and there is little mixing of that culture with others in the East. The Flan are all but wiped out. This leaves the Oeridians with few partners. Culturally, it is hard to see any syncretism.

    Religiously, there is the original table of gods but it suggests a Flan and Oeridian syncretism in the main. Beyond this, there is again no great evidence that I see.

    Certainly, there is evidence that can point to a syncretic impulse but it is not a sure thing and DMs can go in a variety of ways and not be "wrong." There is no "wrong" as canon is hardly definitive on most issues. Canon is not and should not be a fetter on the imagination or one's creativity and it is necessary for neither. Canon admits many, many equally justifiable or good outcomes.

    Lastly, abstract assertions are entirely useful. Concrete, carefully couched and parsed dissertations of canon based "facts" trotted out for all to applaud are the kiss of death to imaginative thinking, the creative impulse and lively reading and discussion. I know what I think. Let me read your post and I know what you think. But together with what others think we create something greater than the sum of its parts. But if you are not abstract and attempt to be too definitive you undercut this process.

    I'm off on a tangent again but what is wrong with Canonfire posts too often is a Greytalk-like devotion to position taking, canon-accounting and declarations of wisdom. Nonesense. Its a game. And its a game that has been developed in a haphazard fashion. Any order is artificially imposed. Canon is best used for consistency but not for creativity. In fact, I believe canon runs counter to creativity. Canon must yeild to creativity, not the other way around. Again. It is a game.

    I think your musings on Rel Astra are interesting but I get this wiff of the canon purist from the above quote. I really get bored by canon discussions because when people fixate on canon they tend to lose sight of anything else. Its everything besides canon that makes Greyhawk fun too.

    Canon suggests possibilities but in few cases does it preclude them. To decide an issue with no clear canon answer should we a) look to what canon suggests would be the outcome or b) look to what would be most fun to play? The answer IMO is b - fun. Creative, imaginative, "It doesn't say that anywhere," fun. The only hedge is a general consistency with "canon" and even then we can reinterpret canon if need be. In the end we want a Greyhawk "feel" I think. You might say, Grey in our Hawk! Wink

    Read my post again. I first admit of multiple possibilities. Next, I set out the historic models I am choosing to use. Finally, I speak in terms of my game - use of the word "I" - as I relate my source material to the setting. At every point, I am offering the reader an opportunity to see things my way or otherwise. I am offering an opinion and a basis for that opinion that could be used to go another way. Look at the above quote from yourself. You invoke authority. That immediately tends to foreclose further discussion because the facts are already largely established by the invoked authority as you would have it.

    When you post you -
    1) Inform
    2) Entertain
    3) Invite a response.

    An invocation of authority does not invite a response. We should be informing people with what we have found interesting or useful. We should try to be lively and thought provoking when we do so - entertainment. And we should leave the door wide open for others to share their thoughts, even when they do not agree.

    I'm cool with you not agreeing with me. Just don't invoke canon (or Gygax etc) alone as the basis for disagreement. Like I say, your Rel Astra stuff is interesting to suggest a public library but the above quote . . .

    By way of long winded counter argument, I see Rel Astra as a special case like CoG. I think the rest of Aerdi would not have public libraries because their culture was not as advanced as the Suel to begin with and because they were a very repressive regime that was more concerned with feudal obligations than any broad literacy. But, Middle-Aerdi, pre-Naelax, is wide open. I am, then, back to a preference for multiple systems and by doing so, have public libraries and the pseudo-medieval as well.

    Rambling thoughts
    _________________
    NightScreed
    - There Can Be Only One
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
    Posts: 580
    From: British Isles

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:10 am  

    Nightscreed, I think the information on libraries in your first text was really interesting and I think I would agree with where you view libraries appearing in the Flanaess. In my campaign I would still have some libraries in Oeridian areas but rather than them being state run public libraries they would be in effect churches of Delleb - I think that these churches would have good lobraries and the access to this places would not be kept from the public as this would be against the ethics of Delleb. In this way - if a game is set in an Oeridian area - characters still have an option for easy research without making it too much of an effort.

    I would also like to mention about oral tradition. In many societies where literacy isn't the norm then bards and storytellers become the source of information and in effect the 'library'. The Suel barbarians, people from more rural areas, dwarves, gnomes, even halflings and elves would I believe have strong oral tradtions. This may take the form of a village or tribal bard, a druid or wise-woman, maybe even a cleric of Lydia or in fact any relevant priest.

    I thik that th epost about schools for pretsige classes and training is interesting and quite a cool idea but I think it's more important to not restrict characters too heavilly. The game should run smoothly and if a character has to take time out from a campaign to tramp across the Flanaess if they want to become a Shadwodancer then it may cause some grumbles. On the other hand it does add a lot of flavour to the world and provide some good adventure hooks.
    CF Admin

    Joined: Jul 28, 2001
    Posts: 630
    From: on the way to Bellport

    Send private message
    Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:47 am  
    Musings about "tone" or "approach"

    In this post I respond to some comments by NightScreed regarding what might be called the "tone" or "approach" I took in my previous post to this thread.

    I didn't mean to invoke authority but rather to "cite" -- to provide readers with sources where they might learn further about my standpoint on this subject by reading past conversations in which I took part or directions on where to look in the LGG (or another book) in order to know the background material with which I'm working. If I had more time (and maybe I can snag some tonight), I'd have actually embedded URLs to seminal GreyTalk ("GT") posts and also provided page citations.

    I'm open to the fact that my education has shaped how I write, perhaps making me appear pedantic or argumentative when that's not my intent. I don't cite to past works or conversations to establish authority but rather because when I talk 'hawk I'm trying to build my Alternate Oerth. By remembering I do this, and as someone who has been around the online Greyhawk community for a few years, I want to share the rich conversations of the past. While others may not, when I have the time an interest, I find perusing the GT Archive amazing.

    More specific to this thread, NightScreed, you must understand that your carefully couched posts, evoke a certain set of responses from the diverse people who read them. My previous post may well represent one "line" in a pattern. Chatdemon's may represent another. Nellisir's still another. Or not. Having studied social science, I like discerning and creating patterns. Sometimes Gary pokes fun at this. Maybe responses to your posts shouldn't be thought of as "forming a pattern" but instead merely as individual responses, contingent on the circumstances of their origin.

    Whichever way you prefer to view it, as I indicated in a post http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4548755&postcount=45 on a Wizards' thread, some of your posts have been exciting to read. Sometimes, however, your verbosity has made it difficult to grasp your meaning. Other posts' florid style have been amusing (what you might call entertaining) but seemed only to invite responses written with similar(?) care. What I posted in this thread previously was my first attempt at this.

    I agree that
    Quote:
    DMs can go in a variety of ways and not be "wrong." There is no "wrong" as canon is hardly definitive on most issues. Canon is not and should not be a fetter on the imagination or one's creativity and it is necessary for neither. Canon admits many, many equally justifiable or good outcomes.


    My point, building upon past discussions on GT, remains that the Common centuries are too vast for us to maintain simplistic divisions between the great races of humanity that Gygax established. Instead, it seems much better for those of us interested in such detail to take seriously the long march of years and to imagine collectively (to share our castles-in-the-air and discuss them) particular histories of the Flanaess.

    It's from an appreciation of "partial histories" that I critiqued the utility of abstract assertions. Think of this as a critique of either/or dichotomies between deductive and inductive logic. Both forms (and others, dialectic, anyone?) are mutually beneficial for different purposes. I don't mean to drown imagination in a cascade of "canon based 'facts'" but instead want us to become specific in order to further years-old discussions. Note that I don't mean for knowledge of past discussions to preclude newcomers from joining our discussions. To the contrary, I want GH fans new (or returning) to the online community to know about and benefit from our collective, continuing discussions about Oerth and Earth.

    Similarly, I agree entirely that:
    Quote:
    together with what others think we create something greater than the sum of its parts. But if you are not abstract and attempt to be too definitive you undercut this process.


    I wasn't around the online GH community to know adequately why NightScreed dislikes "Greytalk-like devotion to position taking, canon-accounting and declarations of wisdom." When I assume such roles, it tends to be momentarily and part of the fun of greytalking. As many others have indicated, it's silly that we "study" GH texts and characterize(d) them as "canon." Nevertheless, it remains good clean fun.

    Again, I agree that "Canon must yeild to creativity, not the other way around." So, let's do away with wiffs of canon purists. Being "well read" in GH "lore" or having been around to discuss the subject for a few years doesn't necessarily preclude imagining in detail the imaginary of Greyhawk. To the contrary, I believe that it is very useful to know such "canon" details, for they provide the fuel from which sparks may grow.

    I've got to run again, but for some thread starters relating to the "past discussions on GT that I've mentioned, see http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/Greytalk.nsf/SearchResults/9347EFC12594FB978525689F00567A4B?OpenDocument ; http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/Greytalk.nsf/SearchResults/A9405529F8DA7279852568A1007A5E01?OpenDocument ; and http://www.greycitadel.com/greycitadel/Greytalk.nsf/SearchResults/D8AC79FF2C7104C8852568A300032A87?OpenDocument .

    When I pluck some more time from Lendor's grasp, I'll review your post again and move toward other parts of it. Offhand, I think this discussion could benefit from more information about the "medieval" model to which you referred. In the next affirmative post I plan to share, I'll be responding to your ideas about demi-humans. While the hobniz seem marginal in importance to the Flanaess, I think the noniz have repeatedly been central if unnoticed in the interstitial (social) places they tend to inhabit. Regarding the dwur, while I agree that at present they seem less civilized than the heights achieved by humanity or those imagined amongst the olves, it seems that their history, especially that related to the Axe of Dwarvish Lords, extends deep into the darkness past. I think their ancient civilizations were indeed grand.
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.38 Seconds