It was noted not so long ago that Erik Mona, Editor of Dragon and Dungeon, might use his “bully pulpit” to express a unique vision of Greyhawk. Something new, interesting and different, a vision of his own in more than the breach.
Some time before, it was commented upon that a revived Greyhawk would need a “hook.” Something to make the setting appealing to a new audience, not just a core audience which would be happy enough with a warmed over, rehash (as long as it had footnotes).
I would like to suggest a very specific idea.
As a setting, Greyhawk has one huge, gaping hole (leaving aside that the Flanaess is just one small portion of an unexplored globe) - there is no described Deep Oerth or “Underdark.” It is a D&D trope that Greyhawk is entirely missing.
Yes. Vault of the Drow. It is tiny and hardly comprehensive.
Yes. Nightbelow. It is not Greyhawk, however much wishing and invocations of Sargent’s name would see it so.
No. Oerth needs an subterranean addition all its own. Or nearly so.
First, to the chief advantage of a comprehensive Deep Oerth. It is everywhere. From the lands of the Ice Barbarians to the Hold of the Sea Princes. From Sunndi to Blackmoor. And all points in between. Deep Oerth has the capacity to touch and effect every corner of the Flanaess. Yet, it is tucked away down there, out of sight. This means no great disruptions to affairs on the surface are mandatory. Such could be had but the influence of Deep Oerth could be far more subtle, but no less telling. You can have your cake and eat it too.
Of exactly - what’s down there? And - what is its impact on the setting? I am not going to speculate. The important point, IMO, is to illustrate how a single idea can energize a new look at and for the World of Greyhawk, specifically the Flanaess.
And, as it turns out, Deep Oerth is very much in easy reach. Two developments touch upon this idea.
First - Stealing Mystara.
Greyhawk stole the Isle of Dread from the Mystara setting. It is done. So, why stop there? Mystara in The Shadow Elves (D&D GAZ13) and The Orcs of Thar (D&D GAZ10) has a very nice underground environment all mapped out. Only the scale and some specifics need to be changed/adjusted to fit Greyhawk. That takes care of the physical environment.
Second - The Rift Canyon
Here is your Greyhawk jump off point into Deep Oerth. It is sitting right there in the middle of the map waiting to be developed. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if someone were not already developing it for print. If ever there was a perfect entre to Deep Oerth, here it is. That would take care of an initial Greyhawk tie in.
All that remains would be to decide -
(1) What is down there in Deep Oerth; and
(2) How does that impact the surface of the Flanaess?
For those who want the Flanaess frozen in amber, the surface is left substantially alone.
For those who want to see substantial development beyond the established confines of the Flanaess, get a shovel.
I don't see the underdark as the obvious new "Greyhawk hook".
It’s actually really simple:
It’s all about the adventures themselves.
Generic adventures are, well, generic.
If players can say "We set out from Gradsul after being hired on as elite marines by the Royal Navy of Keoland to storm a pirate citadel along the Amedio coast!" then they are probably much more interested. Or they might say "We set out from a guarded Duergar fortress within a deep canyon of the Sulhaut Mountains, where we began our decent into the underdark to face unknown horrors." Specifically setting an adventure within a specific campaign world is all that is needed. That and a well written adventure in the first place. The campaign world lends the adventure an atmosphere. To further develop the adventure, you create an atmosphere for its actual location. In the above examples you would focus on developing the exotic locales of the Amedio coast or the underdark below the Sulhaut Mountains (which might be very different from the underdark in other geographical locations).
The underdark works better as a campaign locale and not as a focus, in my opinion. Nightbelow is its own thing. Greyhawk(and other campaigns) are their own thing as well- they each have the underdark, but it is merely a campaign feature, not an overriding theme. Most people do not run underdark campaigns. Besides, to even make the underdark of Greyhawk as interesting as the surface world would require a huge amount of effort.
I wouldn't mind seeing a map of the Greyhawk underdark, with locations relevant to the surface world ( a hex map that approximates the hexes on the surface world map so that you know where everything is located in relation to the surface world). It’s just not currently very feasible. I asked Erik about the feasibility of such a map. He said that there is just not enough relevant information on the Greyhawk underdark to date to warrant such a project, and I am in agreement with him. It would be nice though!!!
To make the Greyhawk underdark an event in Dungeon and/or Dragon magazine, similar to what was done with the drow and githyanki, would also just kind of be blah. It’s been done to death in many forms: Nightbelow, Dungeonworld, the Mithril Hall invasion and the Drizzt books, among others.
Much could be done with the Greyhawk underdark, but I don't see it being a very good "hook".
A much better hook would be some adventures set in Greyhawk locales. This is already being done, and the response so far has been pretty positive. Erik could verify this in the near future as the sales numbers come in.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for Paizo to put an advertisement in the next few issues of Dungeon and Dragon about a poll at their website to collect reader feedback. "What types of articles do readers like the most?” and that sort of thing, with a list of options to choose from. I know Erik desires feedback, so this might be a very simple and good idea. Rather than sifting through letters (which is still a good thing to do), the polls would offer an “at a glance” view of reader sentiment.
Finally, a vote for a comprehensive flanaess wide underdark.
I don't know how many times my interest was peaked by a module dungeon with passages to the underdark or tales of the drow and others races engaged in underground warfare only to be told "sorry can't explore anymore...no map beyond this point."
Worse yet depending on the modules avaliable the underdark changed month to month depending on the writers whim.
Sadly for the artistically challenged like myself, the home grown option is not even feasible.
You are correct GVD, the underdark is such a rich untapped resource within greyhawk, it boggles the mind why it hasn't been "officially explored" rather than debating another surface war or political tweaking of the various nations once again. (although I enjoyed the LGG )
How about a Gazetteer for the Underdark as a "companion" to the surface one, I know I would happily buy it.
Although I'm not sure that Deep Oerth could be the hook for a new Greyhawk revival I definitely agree with GVD that it is ideal for developing.
I mean the Duergar were a Greyhawk phenomenon as were the drow initially. I remember some issues ago Erelhei-Cinlu was detailed for 3rd ed rules but it's a small drop in the water.
Deep Oerth in true Greyhawk style I imagine to be rife with the same political struggles and the like that the surface suffers...there must be some reason why there hasn't been more interaction between above and below.
There are so many possibilities - I like the idea of the Ur-Flan awakening something deep below the Flanaess or the Duergar taking some kinda vengeance on the Suloise and I like the idea of Beltar (who in my game is the secret patron of the duergar as like them she feels bitterness and rejection by the Suel) turning on the Suel, the drow are always a fun prospect, maybe its time that the affairs of the demi-humans dragged in the fates of the humans again. An alliance of drow and duergar facing an alliance of elves and dwarves (under the instigation of Jascar...i think it was he who turned his back on the Suloise in favour of the dwarves?)
anyways - i'd be really interested to hear what ideas people have!
I wouldn't mind seeing a map of the Greyhawk underdark, with locations relevant to the surface world ( a hex map that approximates the hexes on the surface world map so that you know where everything is located in relation to the surface world). It’s just not currently very feasible. I asked Erik about the feasibility of such a map. He said that there is just not enough relevant information on the Greyhawk underdark to date to warrant such a project, and I am in agreement with him. It would be nice though!!!
"not enough relevant information?" You mean, "no canon." How did "canon" come to be? Someone created it. From nothing. "not enough relevant information" is only an explanation/excuse if one has no individual creativity or imagination.
If this quote is at all accurate, my regard for Mr. Mona's abilities just plummeted. "Not enough creativity or imagination," is more like it.
How about a Gazetteer for the Underdark as a "companion" to the surface one, I know I would happily buy it.
Now, here is a potential group project, the more fun for those who say it can't be done or done well. If one could get one of the CF mapmakers interested, the rest would be brainstorming and writing. "Research" would be limited as the "canon" is limited. Imagination is thankfully unlimited.
It's funny you bring this up. Just the other day I was mulling over what 'niche' Greyhawk could fill. (Yes, I actually do waste time thinking about stuff like that.) The Generic Adventures 'role' is a good idea. But what I was thinking of was City Adventures.
I mean after all Greyhawk is named after the city. Lankhmar didn't do well enough to survive, for probably several reasons, but I'm willing to bet a high quality city setting and adventures would have a market. It would certainly fill a need, since really good city settings and adventures are rather hard to come by (though recent d20 products like CSIO, Freeport, various 'Sword & Sorcery' city boooks, etc. have been published).
I'm sure a lot of you guys are groaning (Greyhawk being overdone/over-developed, other parts of the world are more interesting to you, and so on), but I'd be all over it. Also Greyhawk City, the Domain, and some of the surrounding areas aren't part of the Living Greyhawk system, so tat wouldn't be a problem.
[quote="GVDammerung]If this quote is at all accurate, my regard for Mr. Mona's abilities just plummeted. "Not enough creativity or imagination," is more like it.
GVD[/quote]
I am pleased to say the quote, to which the above is addressed, is not accurate, at least not in an absolute sense. Mr. Mona has expressed himself on the Wotc site in response to a cross-post of the initial post I made to start this thread. I would repost it, but I think that is frowned upon. Suffice to say his views are refreshing in that he is not as "canon bound" as some others. My faith in the future is, by this measure, fortified.
"["not enough relevant information?" You mean, "no canon." How did "canon" come to be? Someone created it. From nothing. "not enough relevant information" is only an explanation/excuse if one has no individual creativity or imagination.
If this quote is at all accurate, my regard for Mr. Mona's abilities just plummeted. "Not enough creativity or imagination," is more like it.
GVD]"
No, I did not mean "canon material". You may have incorrectly pegged me as a “CanonHawker". This is not the case. I am aware that "canon" does not mean much to you (and to myself as well) as a limiting factor. With regard to a new product, it is always nice to stick closely to previously published material (so that it is useful to more people than it is not- that is just smart writing for sales purposes), but sometimes you might have to omit something or twist something a bit to fit into a newer and more interesting way of looking at something. Now you know how I feel about “canon” material. Erik never struck me as a CanonHawker either, and we see that this is correct.
For clarification as to what Erik meant, you might want to ask him at the next Greychat. I was giving you my interpretation of what he wrote, which I do not remember verbatim, from two or three weeks ago. This was just the gist of what I got out of it. And "not enough relevant information" does not necessarily mean “no imagination”. It might instead mean that "Our little staff doesn't have enough time currently to do justice to a project of the kind at the moment.” could it not?
Hopefully I don't come off as hammering your idea, for that is quite contrary to my intention. As a group project for Canonfire, I think doing the Greyhawk Underdark would be great. It would make a really good Postfest topic- “Create you own area of the Underdark”. As an official product project, I think it would be great as well. The problem is more a matter of who has the time, interest, and drive to write something of this magnitude. As mentioned earlier, I actually had enough interest in this topic to ask Erik about the possibility of a Greyhawk Underdark map project for Dungeon or Dragon magazine. This was two or three weeks ago. The lack of material on the Greyhawk Underdark was merely one reason for it not being very feasible. I assume that a lot of work went into the Surface maps of Greyhawk, and much of the details were already there to draw from and just needed to be put in the proper place. For the Greyhawk Underdark though, there is very little information existent on the sheer number of locations required to make such a map interesting, and so doing a map of this kind would require a lot more work, and yes creativity. Creativity takes time. Not everyone is a Greyhawk genius, having written whole tomes of Greyhawk material in their own minds since they were in-utero. Some ideas will be good; some will be not so good. It takes time to sort them out. This is my interpretation of the answer I was given. I think the Greyhawk Underdark warrants much more than a Dragon magazine event or a mere article; it warrants its own book (a big, fat, heavy book).
I agree the rest of Greyhawk needs more development. I have been playing Greyhawk since 1983 off and on and though I consider Flanaess home in think it is time to grow the rest of the world. Especial since it is something that Living Greyhawk has not touched. Not because Living Greyhawk is bad but that it still more wide open for interpretation. I find that since Living Greyhawk as come into existence there appears to be less discussion on how Greyhawk, more specifically Flanaess can be interpreted and less openness to varying ideas. I believe Flanaess needs to go through a Phoenix experience and at the same time the Deep Oerth, the rest of Oerth can grow and Flanaess be reborn with some of the old and some new. I started thinking about this when I was writing NPCs for the last Postfest. This is a real opportunity to development some great new ideas without giving up on the World we all love. The City of Exag may just be a great place to start. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
This is my interpretation of the answer I was given. I think the Greyhawk Underdark warrants much more than a Dragon magazine event or a mere article; it warrants its own book (a big, fat, heavy book).
No disagreement. It was a possible approach. Thank you for the clarification.
Mr. Mona, I believe, is making it clear that he will not be undertaking any significant development of Greyhawk within those magazines under his present aegis. Rather, we will see petit point treatment of this or that, along the Istivin line. "Big projects" will follow the line of the Isle of Dread, Castle Maure and "The Map."
I certainly have no objection to the "big projects" as described. And I will look at Mr. Mona's petit point on a case by case basis.
I grow wistful only that more grand projects are not in the offing but one must not loose sight of the big picture.
I agree the rest of Greyhawk needs more development. I have been playing Greyhawk since 1983 off and on and though I consider Flanaess home in think it is time to grow the rest of the world. Especial since it is something that Living Greyhawk has not touched. Not because Living Greyhawk is bad but that it still more wide open for interpretation. I find that since Living Greyhawk as come into existence there appears to be less discussion on how Greyhawk, more specifically Flanaess can be interpreted and less openness to varying ideas. I believe Flanaess needs to go through a Phoenix experience and at the same time the Deep Oerth, the rest of Oerth can grow and Flanaess be reborn with some of the old and some new. I started thinking about this when I was writing NPCs for the last Postfest. This is a real opportunity to development some great new ideas without giving up on the World we all love.
I must agree that the rest of the Flaeness must be developed. A few adventures focusing in different locales would be a great boon. How many adventures were made for Veluna, Gran March, Ull, Ratik, Radigast City, Rovers of the Barrens, the Pomarj, etc? There is such a rich and diverse number of kingdoms and nation-states that certainly the powers- that-be can design an adventure series. I will now stand off my soapbox
As for Underdark Greyhawk sources check out the 1E Dungeoneers Survival Guide. There are some broad descriptions of the different factions/races living there plus there`s an actual multilevel map of some region of DeepEarth as it its called there. Not sure if and where to place it in the Flanaess though...
Also there`s an adventure in it and lots of rules and stuff about ...well you guessed it... Dungeoneering.
I believe both Night Below and that great Dungeon Magazine adventure Kingdom of Ghouls by Wolfgang Baur (in #70 IIRC) draw upon the material in the DSG.
GDV put in that the Rift Canyon is the place to start to develop Deep Oerth. That got me thinking. Has anyone ever addressed why it is not full of water? With its proximity to Quag, Whyestil and Nyr Dyv, it kind of looks like a drained Lake Michigan. Melting glaciers, groundwater seepage or the meandering of the Artonsamay River should have filled it up. If it is a matter of elevation, how far could you go down before every cave would be full of water? Perhaps it was an evil plot on par with Sauron's manipulation of Morder?
I do not think it is up to Dragon or Dungeon magazine to spear head or even guide a new gen or further development of Greyhawk. That would a project(s) for people of this forum to do. Perhaps they would publish some articles or dungeons involving these concepts I do not know. I do know that the latest Dungeon#117 I have with Istivin has also added to the ideas I have been having about great upheaval in Flanaess. By the way Erik it is great to have City information to work with.
Also perhaps the next Postfest can deal some the ideas put forth here. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I have to say that while there is a great big gap in Greyhawk lore regarding an Oerth Underdark I do not think that is a horrible thing. While I personally love what the orignal drow began as way back, I think they have just been overdone to death in the Forgotten Realms. I know in my circle of friends that is one of the major detractors of the realms. It seems that these days everyone is interested in drow this, drow that... They made such an excellent villian before with just a little information on them, I dont see a need for a huge Realmish explosion of Drow in the Flanaess as well. I guess I just dont see a need to make the Oerth more Realms like. At least that is my two-cents worth. _________________ "The only good drow elf is a dead drow elf..."
I totally agree that drow thing was over done in FR. I still think under world can still be explored more. It does not need to be Drow. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
I agree that the drow shouldn't be _overdone_ but I don't think the Forgotten Realms OTT approach to the drow and people's dislike of them for that reason should make their place in Greyhawk suffer. Afterall the drow began life in Greyhawk and the drow have been background players in a lot of the adventures such as Slave Lords and even ToEE.
They should be treated with the same attention any other race in an Under Oerth sourcebook. ANyhows, their is quite a lot of information on the Under-Oerth drow already available so it would maybe only need brushing up on and bringing into line with the events of the current Greyhawk timeline. I think the chaotic nature of the drow and their constant scheming against each other would always keep their role to being a background threat perhaps?
I still think that the duergar could be developed nicely especially as they too are of Greyhawk origin.
I think the Drow are fine, they make great villans... but a well known (and fun) series of book have given them a prominence that just isn't justified.
The drow as originally done, and followed up in one of the OJ articles are fantastic antagonists. They just need to be dusted off and taken out of the spot light a little. Similar to the SB, they are best when striking from the shadows. They definately have place in the underdark, but some stories would make them the only power there. What about Duergar, Deep Gnomes, Aboleth, and Mind Flayers... and Mind Flayers! Drow have little interest in the surface, but Mind Flayers are hungry.
Also, I would like to see a little more intercine strife in the under dark. FR seems to have a fairly stable down below, and they attack the races above without worrying too much about their backside. Not IMC.
Finally, the underdark is way too flat. I think it should be Vertical. There is a reason most drow levitate, that it to get around. You want to go spelunking, better bring lots of rope. Said the wizard as he watched his party fall..."I would cast a fireball, but I had to help all of you fly so that we could come to this spot and die."
Thanael, I agree with you on the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide. That 3D map rocks, and I've always planned on using it...someday...
The Vault of the Drow was updated in Dragon 298, and major NPCs were detailed in issue 300. See the Living Greyhawk Journal Index, to your left, for details.
Also, though it's technically a Planescape product, the Vault received another (smaller) treatment in Dead Gods.
Personally I feel that, because the drow have been done to death elsewhere they've degenerated into "just another monster" for the players. They know all about drow. IMHO, this isn't how they should be handled in Greyhawk, but for now I'm content to return/retain their mystique by using them very sparingly. I love how the occassional drow NPC will appear in a GH product, and never anything more. That's just about the right touch, for me.
Personally, when my low-level party finally makes it into the UnderOerth, I plan to use some of the many other races dwelling there. Cloakers just rule. We need a Lovecraftian cloaker supplement. ;-)
But the Istivin adventures in Dungeon are hinting at drow influences on events, so you might get a bit more over the next 2 issues. I really can't wait to find out. :-) I thoroughly enjoyed installment #1. _________________ ~basiliv
I didn't design the world,
I merely facilitated its creation
I do not want to leave the impression I do not like Drow. Like Anced_Math I think they make a great adversary. I fact I played a Drow male cleric in FR (sacrilege was deliberate) and I did offer a Drow God to Greyhawk and this forum much to many peoples' chagrin. I think the point people are making is that they want this underworld to have more variety and depth, which I think is very achievable.
To quote Anced_Math
Quote:
Also, I would like to see a little more intercine strife in the under dark. FR seems to have a fairly stable down below, and they attack the races above without worrying too much about their backside. Not IMC.
Finally, the underdark is way too flat. I think it should be Vertical. There is a reason most drow levitate, that it to get around. You want to go spelunking, better bring lots of rope.
People what an interesting world. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
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If ever there was a perfect entre to Deep Oerth, here it is. That would take care of an initial Greyhawk tie in.
