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    Canonfire :: View topic - I Spit on the Old One
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    I Spit on the Old One
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Thu Dec 02, 2004 10:03 am  
    I Spit on the Old One

    Hate. Like “love,” it gets tossed around a lot, almost to a point of no meaning. Is it too strong a term?

    It does get the message across - an intense, visceral and instantaneous dislike. It is intense; you know what you feel without question. It is visceral; you “feel” it in your gut. It is instantaneous; there is not a cognitive process involved - the feeling “just is” as soon as the matter comes up.

    I would add “irrational.” Despite the ability to reason and develop distinctions of type and kind, “hate” overrides reason in that you feel it despite reason and even after having drawn reasoned distinctions.

    Maybe “burning” would be another defining term. “Hate” burns. It gnaws. It is an ache.

    I greatly enjoy a number of WotC products, the quality of which just seems to be getting better and better. Frost Burn is my frozen dream come true. The Complete Warrior, Divine and Arcane are superb, winning me over even after I had thought to dislike significant portions of them. The Draconomicon was brilliant. Liber Mortis, while not as good, eventually was good enough that I shelled out for it and am pleased that I did. I do not dislike WotC products. Rather, I like them a great deal.

    I, however, hate WotC. I would see the same people responsible for all of the above which I enjoy unemployed and beggared, living out of cardboard boxes under overpasses, being hassled by the police and looking for pennies in the gutter when they are not warming themselves a over heating grates. Why? Greyhawk.

    While I can speak very well of individual products and designers whose work I enjoy, I am almost pathologically incapable of saying a good word about WotC. And I am not alone. I live in a city that boasts several, outstanding full service game stores offering all the usual features as well as a host of “extras” that make for a lively and genuine gaming community. When talk turns to WotC, it is almost like the cliche phrase, “I spit on the Old One.” No one has one good word to say and WotC products are purchased “despite” them being WotC products. Why? Well, among my friends the answer is Greyhawk, but more generally the sentiment is wide spread, although not universal.

    Why a Greyhawker would have an issue with WotC is not hard to fathom. From other’s perspectives, there is doubtless a rationale for their feelings as well.

    With the rpg community graying, does it make any sense for WotC is be complacent in the face of such feelings? Even if it is a “love/hate” relationship that sees product purchased, however reluctantly? Is it wise to simply shrug it off?

    If 4th Edition is not OGL and backwards compatible with 3rd Edition, I will continue to support OGL products and WotC can choke on 4th Edition. I did not have this option when 3rd Edition replaced 2nd Edition. A move to 4th Edition will not be analogous. I will still be able to get support for 3rd Edition without WotC when they move to a 4th Edition.

    Many 2nd Edition, or earlier edition, players have already left WotC and subsist on their own creativity and that of fan communities. Not a few, “Spit on the Old One.” That WotC was able to marginalize the loss of these gamers is attributable to many wanting some official support for the edition they play and there being no such 2nd Edition support when 3rd Edition launched. That wind in WotC’s sails will not be blowing when 4th Edition sets out upon the water.

    This puts a point on questions about the wisdom of a company that can sell products but which engenders such hard feelings among its customers. WotC, to use the business phrase, does not have substantial reserves of “good will.” This could hurt them in a pince. A new edition, particularly if it is not backwards compatible and there is no 4th Edition OGL, could well feel that pinch. The ability of the present OGL to continue to support 3rd Edition without WotC is a substantial change from the launch of prior new editions.

    What really puzzles is not only why WotC blithely doesn’t mind being reviled, but why they cannot or will not take the simplest steps that would do much to better the general feeling.

    For Greyhawk fans, one product a year, or one product every two years, would likely suffice, at a minimal level in the latter case. This is not a new idea and has been suggested repeatedly. But there are no takers in Washington State. One product would so throughly fragment the market and negatively impact revenue that it is better to be widely reviled? Confused The proof of this would be fascinating to see. I cannot imagine how this makes good business sense.

    “I spit on the Old One.”

    GVD
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    GVD
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    Joined: Oct 14, 2003
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    Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:33 am  

    heh, GVD. I read the title and thought;

    Uh-oh, another "let's pick on Iuz" thread...

    At any rate, I agree with your evaluation. Wink
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    Joined: Aug 02, 2004
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    Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:35 am  

    Though I do not hate WotC, I do, also, question why, with their staff and resources, WotC has not put out some Greyhawk material.
    No answer seems to be able to justify the lack. They could even do web enhancements of Greyhawk material. But they do not.

    Never underestimate the power of corporate stupidity.
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    Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:24 pm  

    Two more cents:

    I often suspect that Greyhawk has been handed over (almost) completely to Living Greyhawk to avoid conflicts.

    One would think, however, that the popularity of LG demonstrates the demand for quality GH products -- though not the derivative, lackluster garbage they've released to date (IMHO).

    Regards,

    Jack
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    Joined: Sep 08, 2002
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    Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:28 am  

    jwb3 wrote:

    One would think, however, that the popularity of LG demonstrates the demand for quality GH products -- though not the derivative, lackluster garbage they've released to date (IMHO).


    Referring to LG modules in general or articles (Such as Hardby) in Dungeon?

    S.H, Naerie webslave and LG author.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 05, 2004 6:06 pm  

    OK, gotta back off part of my previous statement :(

    I love the material I've seen in Dungeon. Right or wrong, I don't give WotC credit for that.

    What I do give them credit (or blame) for is RtToEE and the GH novels. That's the "lackluster garbage" of which i spoke.

    Regards all,

    Jack
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 05, 2004 7:24 pm  

    I personally like a lot of the recent Wotc stuff and I think, at least with accessories and sourcebooks, the quality is improving.

    It is the confounding "not too much Greyhawk" policy that gets me and make Wotc a dirty word in my book.

    I disagree with those who want GH adventures, as I think those are the most problematic. I would rather see an accessory or sourcebook. Or a mix of adventure and sourcebook would be fine.

    Quality is an issue that can be addressed, in part, by a more general treatment - like the old Greyhawk Adventures - than looking for uber specific (and consistent) setting detail - in an adventure or otherwise.

    IMO

    GVD
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    GVD
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    Joined: Aug 07, 2004
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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:18 am  

    Wouldn't it be nice to see the same level of resource developement in GH as Forgotten Realms? Releases covering geographical areas such as Furyondy, Pomarj etc would be great, but instead GH fans are supposedly appeased by being told GH is the "core world".[/img]
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:46 am  

    the Forgotten Realms campaign setting sourcebook was nicely designed, informative and so were the other source books, Races of Faerun and the like. It would be great to see Greyhawk versions of these with cracking artwork, helpful stat blocks and not just "LE Ftr 11 " as the info you get.

    There are plenty enough deities to warrant a Pantheons of Greyhawk book

    I don't understand either why WotC haven't developed Greyhawk.

    I personally find a lot of the LG stuff I've seen uninspiring and even pretty cheesy. There is no sense of a uniform vision of Greyhawk. To see the human cultures developed as we have discussed them on threads here would be great. I'd like to see something with ABSOLUTELY NO involvement from the LG folks.

    So I would like to add my spittle to the pool so to speak :o)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:04 am  

    I certainly understand your feelings about WoTC GVD. I spent several years away from gaming due to work and family and when I returned I was surprised and somewhat dismayed by what WoTC had changed from what I rembered. Now some of the changes were great and some were god awful. Since my return I have tried to look at everything equally but I have lately just thrown up my hands with it. No new stuff for those of us that play Greyhawk (core world my backside) not even a lousy source book and honestly and this not a slam to those of you that play 3.5 but I think it is a awful and silly system. From everything that I have read I get the impression that WoTC attitude is take it or leave it cause thats the way it is. So I'll stick to the older systems and create new stuff for my players and let WoTC go their own way.

    Maraudar
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:28 pm  

    Hello,

    I believe that WotC suffers from a 90's era corporate mentality of "Offend nobody or ignore the problem." The 3.5 edition is designed so that everyone can do everything, similar to video games where the hero can cast magic, cure theirself, fight monsters, sneak around, etc. In my opinion, it is a silly system where the players really don't have to lean on each other for support. If your character needs healing, just go to the next village and go buy some healing potions. Need a magic item? Just go to the local magic shop. This is definitely not what we see as the norm for WoG. Don't offend anyone, let them have anything and everything so they will play (yawn).

    There is the concept of ignoring problems. WotC seem to excel at this. On one hand, they ignore a potential area and don't support it. Then to justify why they don't support something, they can say that the sales figures just aren't there and there is no reason to support a product line. It's a cyclical argument, I agree. WotC, as stated earlier, wouldn't have to mass produce products like the good folks over at Hero Games (now they can run a business *and* make a game fun). I think we, the Greyhawk community, would be happy with just some concrete and dedicated material. Personally, I think Mr. Mona is going to do some very good things for us in that department.

    One of the things that would be most helpful is 1) a nice sourcebook on the area(s) or 2) a series of modules put together and set in one area dedicated to Greyhawk. Yes an inventive DM can transplant it, but you know what, Greyhawk has it's very own gritty feel. Now they could bundle the modules into one package or book and cut down on the printing cost. Yes, printing material is where the industry gets raped! If it's not econimical for them, then it won't be for us. If it's not economical of rus, the consumer to purchase the product, then it isn't economical for the company to produce it to begin with.

    I Miss the Wild Coast,
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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:39 pm  
    WOTC

    I disagree about WOTC somewhat, but I understand overall the complaints voiced here. What I like about WOTC is the new system. Having played all the various editions, and a variety of other systems, I actually prefer the current 3E mechanics over all others that I have tried.

    However, I have to say that WOTC has no sense of flavor. They do not understand the difference between a formula and a recipie. The core system is great. The OGL is something I honestly believe was beyond the scope of anyone who came before. But the trappings and the flavoring that they provide are terrible.

    The Complete books are, IMO, a perfect example. Check out the names of the various artifacts in the Complete Divine. Nothing of the flavor of AD&D. Nothing that stirs the imagination like the Hand and Eye of Vecna. Yes, in these books there are a few bows to GH. Great. Toss me bone. The Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom, summed up in a presitge class?!? There could be a source book for them alone. Think Knights Templar or the Hospitalers.

    They have the system, but the story seems to elude them. Spin off a small shop WOTC, let it handle the story. I do not hate WOTC, but they have been surpassed by many other D20 groups on the story front.

    What they do, they do well... but when you do not do something well, turn it over to those who do. You come looking a whole lot smartere. And lets face it WOTC, right now Greyhawk is not a profit center, maybe you could make it one.
    Forum Moderator

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    Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:47 pm  

    Personally I think WOTC could make a buck on GH still, but all it would do is compete heavily with FR and probably sink their new ship Eberron. Its one of those properties they are holding onto so nobody else can have it. Yet what little GH stuff that does see print now is quality since the demand is so great and the expectations so high. I am sure everyone can name several past GH products they were unhappy with when GH had full support.


    As for the d20 system. I like it. Interchangeable no matter what I'm using-doing. Although that is the same reason I dislike it. Too many books and optional rules for players to drool over. I tend to only use as many books as can fit in my backpack.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:06 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    As for the d20 system. I like it. Interchangeable no matter what I'm using-doing. Although that is the same reason I dislike it. Too many books and optional rules for players to drool over. I tend to only use as many books as can fit in my backpack.


    As I love/hate WOTC for mainly the same reasons as many of you, I have to admit that I like the lifeblood that WOTC pumped back into the gaming hobby with the advent of d20. I have found more new players over the past 4 years then I ever have before. Why, I can only say because of "new D&D." At first I ddin't like the change, but over time I have grown to like it very much.

    To keep all of the "crunch factor" away, I simply only allow the use of the core 3 books in my game. There is plenty of flexibilty in the core 3, without all of the nonsense of the "Complete this or that."

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    Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:31 pm  

    Hello friends

    Although i would like to see new Greyhawk material published i do not hate WotC. Dungeons & Dragons is not played only in USA and to be honest with you Greyhawk (except for France) never had success outside north america, i think. My point is: D&D is business and WotC wants to make money with it. Unfortunately Greyhawk don't seem to have such potential (as Forgotten Realms always did) - do not ask me why, so we come to one conclusion: WotC was not that stupid when decided not to publish Greyhawk material. BUT surely because of this kind of decision WotC is not so likeable as TSR.

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    Sat Jan 01, 2005 4:25 pm  

    What I find problematic is not that WOTC has not supported Greyhawk, but the policy of making it the "core" setting for 3rd Ed. which has made it virtually impossible for the company to license the setting out to those who would make it available to the wider market with the necessary detail.

    I agree that WOTC has breathed new life into the hobby, and that generally the quality of product has been good. But the current strategy is stifling Greyhawk, and I see little prospect of this changing.
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