Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods
Most of them are, except for Chitza-Atlan (who the original module didn't claim as a deity).
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it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
It is odd, and the reason is that C1 was written by Harold Johnson and Jeff R. Leason, not Gygax, and only loosely shoehorned into the World of Greyhawk. The Olman don't really belong in the setting. I'm not saying it's bad to put them there, just that they're not part of the original design and they don't fit in as well as other races. In the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and From the Ashes, the inhabitants of the Amedio and Hepmonaland are Suel. It wasn't until the 1998 revival that designers started to take C1 seriously as part of the campaign and incorporate the Olman in earnest.
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-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans,
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
The description of Flan traits seems more Ethiopian than any sort of Amerind to me, although I could see it either way.
I also think the unmixed/typical Baklunish are described as looking a lot more like Central Asian peoples than like Arabs.
Oeridians seem Mediterranean. Berbers, Syrians, Maltese, Greeks, etc.
I don't necessarily interpret the classic, pure Suel as 'Nordic.' Some Suel have kinky hair, which sounds right for a people which may have a tropical origin. And the savages in Amedio freckle heavily to the point of looking quite different from Suel populations that settled in temperate lands, right.
Maybe the original 'pure' Suel looked like Papuan albinos?
Or northern Europeans with Afro-textured hair?
Do Ice/Frost/Snow barbarians grow dreds?
My impression is that the common Oerid-Suel mixes comes out looking like 'European.'
... Canon isn't even consistent on it-given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans, it's kind of odd that they get their own pantheon of original gods while all the Olman deities are taken from real life.
-Some yeah, some not. Mostly up north. The Rovers and the Coltens are like northern Plains Indians (there was that adventure in Dungeon Magazine that made it sort of explicit). Carl Sargent had a note, on the fall of Tenh, referencing Tenhese message runners getting killed by Fisters before they could warn anyone. This sounds a lot like he Inka.
The Old Faith druids are reminiscent of the Celts, and Geoff comes off as Welsh (Celt = Cymric/British).
CULTURALLY, the Flann are a mix. On the other hand, Flann LOOK Hamitic.
Same deal with the Suel. The Imperium comes off as Roman (or maybe Numeenorean or Atlantean), but they look Nordic, except for a trend to curly or kinky hair. S K Reynolds (or was it Carl Sargent?) made the Touv blue-eyed Bantu. The culture doesn't match the look. I think E G Gygax once mentioned that some of that was deliberate. They're fantasy races, after all.
I tend to see the Suel as a mixture of the real life Aryan peoples and what the Nazis thought the Aryan people were like (of course that opinion's colored by the Scarlet Brotherhood's existence).
The Olman don't really belong in the setting. I'm not saying it's bad to put them there, just that they're not part of the original design and they don't fit in as well as other races. In the 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set and From the Ashes, the inhabitants of the Amedio and Hepmonaland are Suel. It wasn't until the 1998 revival that designers started to take C1 seriously as part of the campaign and incorporate the Olman in earnest.
We’ve had the name Olman from the Olman Islands since 1980. The Folio and Guide describe the Amedio as populated by “tribes of cannibal savages — some purportedly of Suloise extraction or admixture.” (Hepmonaland is nigh completely ignored in those early sources.) So, the groundwork was there for a race distinct from the Suel; they just weren’t fleshed out until the later products you cited.
So, the groundwork was there for a race distinct from the Suel;
Sure, there's room for any number of new races in distant corners of the Oerth, and it's not unreasonable to call one the Olman after the isles. But instead of creating a people similar to the Suel, Oeridians, and Flan—fantasy races with original pantheons of gods—we got a race who worshiped actual Mesoamerican gods.
I'm just explaining why that is: it's because they're from sort of a marginal module penned by other authors and not really part of Gygax's design. If he had designed the Olman himself they might have been very different, less explicit copies of Mesoamerican peoples.
Again, I'm not saying that including the Olman as they are is bad, but the design philosophy behind them is noticeably different from the design philosophy behind the races of the Flanaess. I'm not a purist who insists on an Oerth solely designed by Gygax by any means, but in this case it's very evident that they're the work of others.
Quick question-are the Olman gods real-life Mesoamerican gods . . . given that the Flan are essentially pretty much Native Americans,
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
Cheers,
Gary
I don't know if I forgot this or never learned it, but in returning to CF!/GH, I have found the assertion fascinating, and not recalling the definition for Hamites, Hamitic, or Hamatic peoples, I started with Wikipedia, which begins:
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples by Eurocentric anthropologists in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races favored by white supremacists. The term was originally borrowed from Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham, son of Noah.
The term was originally used in contrast to the other two proposed divisions of the world based on the story of Noah: Semites and Japhetites.
I found the initial sentence provocative but recommend the article to everyone interested in Gygax's imagination for the Flan. The linguistic maps are useful, as is the intellectual history of the concept, which viewed Hamitic groups as a branch of civilizing "Caucasian" pastoralists that reentered Africa and spread throughout its northern and eastern reaches.
Did Gygax ever disclose which anthropological authors or books influenced him, or does anyone know who his professors were at U. Chicago?
N.B. In no way do I mean to imply that Gygax held white supremacist views. Rather, I understand that the reigning anthropological theories of his time, perhaps particularly during his college years, likely derived from older (late-nineteenth through mid-twentieth centuries) models of race and races.
You could interpret them that way, but Gygax said he based them on Africans. See his ENWorld Q&A:
Col_Pladoh at ENworld in 2002 wrote:
I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost.
Yes, he did say that. But he also said
To Forge a Fantasy World wrote:
The Flan people, the aboriginal inhabitants of Oerik continent, were based loosely on a combination of Africans and North American Indians. The Oerid and Suel peoples were mainly drawn from the Indo-European models. The Bakluni "race" was meant to suggest the Asian, combining the Near East and Central Asia. These races alone, or in combination, provided plenty of cultural potential.
mtg wrote:
Not recalling the definition for Hamites, Hamitic, or Hamatic peoples, I started with Wikipedia, which begins:
Hamites is the name formerly used for some North African peoples by Eurocentric anthropologists in the context of a now-outdated model of dividing humanity into different races favored by white supremacists. The term was originally borrowed from Genesis, where it is used for the descendants of Ham, son of Noah.
The term was originally used in contrast to the other two proposed divisions of the world based on the story of Noah: Semites and Japhetites.
I found the initial sentence provocative but recommend the article to everyone interested in Gygax's imagination for the Flan. The linguistic maps are useful, as is the intellectual history of the concept, which viewed Hamitic groups as a branch of civilizing "Caucasian" pastoralists that reentered Africa and spread throughout its northern and eastern reaches.
Did Gygax ever disclose which anthropological authors or books influenced him, or does anyone know who his professors were at U. Chicago?
N.B. In no way do I mean to imply that Gygax held white supremacist views. Rather, I understand that the reigning anthropological theories of his time, perhaps particularly during his college years, likely derived from older (late-nineteenth through mid-twentieth centuries) models of race and races.
The distinction between the sons of Noah (Ham, Shem, and Japhet) is far older than 19th Century anthropology although it did inform it (and, in fact, is still in use by linguists with the terms Hamitic and Semitic languages, as well as such phrases as "anti-Semite" to mean someone who is racist against Jews).
As far as I can tell (and I am not an historian), in the Roman Empire, there was a pretty nuanced view of ethnicity, nationality and local political loyalty, and religion, with room for lots of interaction, overlap, and subtle distinctions. That multiculturalism under the unifying banner Rome of gets shattered when the Empire implodes under barbarian invaders, the Christian Church becomes an orthodox political force, and the Islamic invasions threaten "European" identity. What coalesces at some point in the middle ages is the hugely simplified "sons of Noah" idea, where
Japhet = European = White = Christian
Shem = Asian = Dark = Muslim and Jew
Ham = African = Black = Pagan
I don't know much about the education of Gygax, but it seems he was as much of a medievalist as he was an adherent of 19th century anthropology.
So, when he says that the Flan were meant to be "Hamitic" or "Negro", what does he mean? That they were darker skinned than the Oerid or Suel? That they were somehow a cursed race? That they were bound for servitude, as their nations were conquered and their culture lost in waves of invasion? That their hair was curly? That their religion was more natural / pagan / "Old Faith"? That their language structure was different?
In the absence of a longer and more descriptive quote, I don't think we can say. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I don't know much about the education of Gygax, but it seems he was as much of a medievalist as he was an adherent of 19th century anthropology.
So, when he says that the Flan were meant to be "Hamitic" or "Negro", what does he mean? That they were darker skinned than the Oerid or Suel? That they were somehow a cursed race? That they were bound for servitude, as their nations were conquered and their culture lost in waves of invasion? That their hair was curly? That their religion was more natural / pagan / "Old Faith"? That their language structure was different?
In the absence of a longer and more descriptive quote, I don't think we can say.
Hey kirt, great to hear from you. I hope all is well for you and yours. Thanks also for directing us to Gygax's To Forge a Fantasy World: Greyhawk's Creation. I look forward to reading it.
To your last point, when I first read your post, it reminded me of the follies of so-called originalism (a la the late Justice Scalia) and the fundamental critique of CF! against acting hidebound to one person's view of the setting (even its creator / original author).
I particularly appreciate the possible connotations you suggest, which might (or not) have been in Gygax's mind when he created the Great Races of Oerik and the Flan in particular, as well as when he recalled what he had once imagined at various later moments.
As I return to GH, I find myself greatly interested in the Olman, Flan (particularly the Tenha but also those of Geoff, the Rovers, the Ur-Flan, and the groups that were discussed on GreyTalk as inhabiting the Trakøn and Drakøn peninsulas), and also how to adapt Earth's Silk Road to Oerth.
At the same time, I think the best way for me to approach any of these subjects is through sketching the contours of several possible campaigns and detailing just enough to facilitate creating the trajectory for adventure.
As a resource toward that end, has anyone attempted to map languages onto the Flanaess? Has anyone specified further dialects of the languages (beyond the WoG boxed set and LGG specifications)?
Hey kirt, great to hear from you. I hope all is well for you and yours.
I particularly appreciate the possible connotations you suggest, which might (or not) have been in Gygax's mind when he created the Great Races of Oerik and the Flan in particular, as well as when he recalled what he had once imagined at various later moments.
Hi marc, it has indeed been a while! It is good to hear from you again.
Now that I have had a chance to go through the wikipedia article you linked on Hamites as a 19th century anthropological conflation of language and racial theories, I would like to edit my original post:
1) Apparently Hamitic is no longer used as a term in linguistics. I didn't know that.
2) In the article there is a T and O map and much of what I said about the three sons of Noah is stated, which makes that part of my post a bit redundant.
3) I also had not realized that in the late 19th century and early 20th century for many the use of the term Hamitic was specifically to distinguish between the lighter-skinned and "superior" north and east african peoples as opposed to the darker-skinned and "inferior" central and west african peoples. I understand much better now your quote about civilizing pastoralists and mention of white supremacists and realize that my understanding of the term was rooted much more in the medieval Biblical sense rather than the more recent anthropological sense.
In particular with regard to the last point, since Gygax said the Flan were of "Hamitic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will", it seems more clear to me that he is using the term Hamitic in its medieval sense of "dark people from Africa" and not in the 19th century sense of "lighter-skinned Africans distinct from Negroes".
Add to this rasgon's assertion in another post that "Whenever he was asked, Gary Gygax insisted the Flan were modeled physically on Ethiopians" and his quote of Gygax in this post that "Little is known of [the Flan] because...their culture was generally lost."
I am now starting to believe that what Gygax meant was that the Flan in appearance were darker skinned and curlier-haired then the other races of the Flanaess, and that "Hamitic" for him just had a physical, not cultural meaning. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Last edited by Kirt on Wed Apr 22, 2020 12:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
As a resource toward that end, has anyone attempted to map languages onto the Flanaess? Has anyone specified further dialects of the languages (beyond the WoG boxed set and LGG specifications)?
This is the language write-up I did for the players in my longest running Greyhawk campaign. I tried to strike a balance between making the way languages work in my campaign more real-world and not overwhelming the players with information. When the campaign, with players from Keoland whose primary language was Keoish, moved to the Wild Coast, I pointed out early on that they were communicating in a language that was not the one they daily used and that even then the accents and dialects of the people they were often communicating with made them hard to understand and vice versa.
Common: With it's earliest roots in the Migration Period (c. -450 to -250 CY) as a trade language derived from Ancient Baklunish and Old Oeridian, the rise and expansion of the Great Kingdom saw it mixed with the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken in the core lands of that nation, along with Suloise dialects, and bent to use as a language of administration and diplomacy as well as trade. Eventually it became the everyday language of most of the inhabitants of the Great Kingdom, and remained so even after that state began to decline and its further provinces became independent. Today, three-quarters of the Flanaess speak some dialect of Common as their first language. Even with dialectical differences, usually loan-words of local origin that have crept in, the differences in most of these dialects are so slight that all are mutually intelligible. There does remain a standard form, the Overking's Common, that is considered the proper way to speak and is usually the version spoken by nobles, merchants, and diplomats across the Flanaess and even beyond. When people say Common, this is the dialect they are usually speaking of.
Keoish: The second most commonly spoken language of everyday use, it is the primary language of Keoland, the County of Ulek, Bissel, Gran March, Sterich, the Yeomanry, and the Sea Princes; also being spoken widely in Geoff, and the Duchy and Principality of Ulek. It is also spoken in the human-dominated coastal cities of the Pomarj, but in a dialect that is so filled with loan-words that it is virtually unintelligible to other Keoish speakers. Keoish is derived primarily from the dialect of Old Oeridian spoken by the Keogh Oeridian tribe, and the Ancient Suloise spoken by the Suel refugees of the Sheldomar River Valley, led by the houses of Rhola and Neheli.
Old Oeridian: The basis for many languages and dialects in the Flanaess, Old Oeridian is currently seldom spoken, but it is written and read widely by priests, sages and scholars, as well as everyday scribes (lawyers, clerks, and the like), as much as a way of maintaining their monopoly as tradition. For this reason, most major libraries and archives have a wealth of material written in Old Oeridian. Despite it's name, Old Oeridian is not the universal form of the language spoken by the ancient Oeridian tribes, which began to vary widely in dialectal differences during the Migration Period. The language we now refer to as Old Oeridian is the Aerdian dialect of that language, and in the early days of the Great Kingdom was known as High Oeridian.
Baklunish: The form of this language most often used in the Flanaess is that preserved in writings from the days of the Baklunish Empire, which is referred to as Classical Baklunish, and was a direct influence on Common. The dialects spoken in Baklunish nations are collectively referred to as Low Baklunish. All are for the most part mutually intelligible.
Ancient Suloise: Rarely spoken today, even by the few scholars who know it; it survives primarily as a written language, useful in reading very old texts in Keoland, the Urnsts, the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles, and other nations where Suloise refugees from the dissolution of the Suloise Empire settled.
Nyrondese: Closely related to Common, Nyrondese departs from that language in its heavy derivation from the dialect of Old Oerdian spoken by the Nehron tribe, in what is now the Kingdom of Nyrond. It is different enough from Common as to be almost entirely unintelligible to the speakers of most dialects of that tongue, giving it the distinction of being its own language. Outside of Nyrond it is seldom spoken.
Urnstese: Like Nyrondese, Urnstese is closely related to Common but also heavily influenced by Urnstaal, which was the language derived from Ancient Suloise that was spoken in the Urnsts until those states were absorbed by the Great Kingdom. As such it is unintelligible both to speakers of Common and its mutually intelligible dialects, and to speakers of Ancient Suloise.
Velondi: The dialect of Old Oeridian spoken by the Oeridian tribe that settled the rural area of the borderlands between the Kingdom of Furyondy and the Archclericy of Veluna, roughly corresponding to the Duchy of the Reach in western Furyondy; and in eastern Veluna, the eastern half of the Diocese of Grayington, and the northern half of the Diocese of Devarnish. It divides the speakers of Velunan, the dialect of Common spoken in the rest of Veluna, and speakers of Furyondian, the dialect of Common spoken in the rest of Furyondy. Those two groups of speakers can understand each other well enough, though they are divided geographically by the speakers of Velondi, a language which is almost wholly unintelligible to either group. Whether the person is a daily speaker of Velondi or their respective regional dialects of Common, the accent of most people from Veluna and Furyondy sounds very similar to those not from those nations.
The Cold Tongue: Known as Fruz among its native speakers. It is primarily derived from a dialect of Ancient Suloise mixed with the Flan dialect spoken by the natives of Thillonria before they were absorbed by the Suloise migrants who became the Frost, Snow, and Ice Barbarians. It is seldom heard outside its homeland.
Flan: Though it is just one language belonging to that family of languages spoken by the original inhabitants of the Flanaess, it is used for the name of the language spoken in the Duchy of Tenh, the most prominent Flan nation. It is related to what is called the northeastern group of Flan languages, and is thus similar to Arapahi, which is spoken by the Rovers of the Barrens, and Colten, spoken by the descendants of that tribal confederation, now subject to the rulers of the Hold of Stonefist. Some scholars argue that it was the language group of the aboriginal Flan of Thillonria before they were conquered and absorbed by the Barbarians, but that claim is dubious at best, and probably more the result of some loan-words from Colten being introduced to the Cold Tongue through contact between those peoples.
Gyric: Belonging to the so-called western group of Flan languages, Gyric is the language of the Grand Duchy of Geoff and the Flan- descended clans of hillmen in northern Sterich. It is closely related to Eeomic, a language spoken among highland Flan clans that inhabit the Little Hills, in the Yeomanry.
Terg: Another Flan language although unlike most spoken in the Sheldomar Valley. It is an isolate, belonging to the northern group of Flan languages which are spoken primarily in Blackmoor, the Burneal Forest, and small groups of nomadic Flan who live to the north of those lands. As such, Terg is completely unintelligible to speakers of the nearby Flan languages, Gyric and Eeomic. It is the language of the Flan people who share its name and inhabit the the foothills of the Jotens in the trans-Javan lands of the County of Cryllor in Keoland. At this point in time it is spoken by few except the most isolated inhabitants in trans-Javan Cryllor, but has contributed considerably to the distinctive Keoish accent of those people.
I am now starting to believe that what Gygax meant was that the Flan in appearance were darker skinned and curlier-haired then the other races of the Flanaess, and that "Hamitic" for him just had a physical, not cultural meaning.
This seems to be the consensus, which is novel to me—I don't recall having learned it during my past engagements with online Greyhawk fandom—and I enjoy how it complicates my prior vague modeling of the Flan on Native Americans.
smillan_31 wrote:
This is the language write-up I did for the players in my longest running Greyhawk campaign. . . .
smillan_31, that was fantastic. Have you written your list of the languages and dialects? I'm particularly interested in your Common dialects, Velunan and Furyondian, as well as your northeastern and western groups of Flan dialects.
It's been a long time since I attempted something of the sort (I think before 2e), and if my notes still exist they're handwritten and in a storage unit . . .
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
There's an NPC in Races of Destiny listed as an example of the Urban Soul prestige class, which is for champions of Urbanus. I don't remember the NPC's name, but the text specifically mentions that he's the guardian of Rel Astra.
I seem to remember Chaav and Urbanus being in one of the D&D 3.5 expansion books, but I've never seen them for Greyhawk. Same thing for some of the non-human deities. I've never heard of Ayailla, Cas, Estanna, Lastai, or Phieran.
Yeah, it depends on how expansive a view you have of what "Greyhawk" is. By the "generic 3.0 and 3.5 stuff are loosely Greyhawk" metric, they belong on the list, but of course, you're not required to use them in your own campaign by any means.
But if you need/want some new minor demigods, these are available and not claimed by any other campaign setting. Some of them have canonical connections to those Greyhawk gods used in core 3.x products. Some of them could be used as gods of distant lands beyond the Flanaess, or they might be variant aspects of more familiar gods. Or you could ignore them entirely.
Book of Vile Darkness: Karaan, Rallaster, the Patient One, Scahrossar, the Xammux, Yeathan
Book of Exalted Deeds: Ayailla, Chaav, Estanna, Lastai, Phieran, Valarian
Deities & Demigods: Taiia, Elishar, Toldoth, Dennari
Frostburn: Aengrist, Hleid, Iborighu, Levistus, Telchur, Thrym, Vatun
Heroes of Horror: Cas
Libris Mortis: Afflux, Doresain, Evening Glory, Nerull, Orcus
Lords of Madness: Aboleth pantheon: Bolothamogg, Holashner, Piscaethces, Shothotugg, Y'chak. Aberration deities: the Great Mother, Ilsensine, Mak Thuum Ngatha, the Patient One, Tharizdun
Races of Destiny: Urbanus, Zarus, the Illumian pantheon
Races of Stone and Races of the Wild also include some new nonhuman deities I'm not going to bother typing out right now.
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Zol Darklock comes from castle Greyhawk. Nuff' said.
Other deities mentioned in WG7 include Genericus Brant the Universally Bland, Aunt Bee (demon queen of bees), and Su Shi (goddess of raw fish).
There are also some deities that only appear in Andre Norton's novel Quag Keep.
Complete Warrior also has the "warrior pantheon," nine new martially-focused gods, one for each alignment. They would make fine servant powers (quasi to demigod status) for other deities.
3,000 obahs (guardian spirits) of Mur, from Dungeon #136, probably also count as minor and obscure. The ones described in the magazine are:
-Shensi the Serpent, the obah of peace of mind
-Mumar, obah of soil
-Ciomar, obah of mountain springs
-Zinrial, obah of fertility
-Gobal the Dancer, obah of prosperity and success
-Tektek the Faithful, obah of loyalty, friendship, and dogs
-Balim, an alias for Baalzebul
-Karkush the Ferocious, obah of girallons
-Agalamar the Silent, obah of fate
-Shamarae the Lover, an alias for Shami-Amourae
-Wynnarth the Dervish, an alias for Gwynharwyf
-Veskerwan, obah of death
-Susussan of the Sky, obah of the sky and flying creatures
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