This post is, I believe, in a "gray area" between being appropriate to this particular forum on CF and being better made in another "admin" forum on CF. I respect any admin judgment.
Under CF policy, it is possible to have specialized forums created outside of this "general" forum. There are presently two such sub-forums. There is d20 GH and Epic GH.
The rate of postings to those folders is, politely, "variable," but certainly nowhere near what is posted to this, more general, area. IMO, and only IMO, the d20 GH and Epic GH forums are "failures," if one is to judge by number of posts and frequency of posts. No offense to those posting there and the sponsors good intentions.
I have been thinking about two potential new forums but I see no point in pursuing either if people a) would prefer to keep discussion within this general folder/forum or b) simply have no interest/intention of participating in any sub-forums as a general matter. Let me describe the possible new forums (btw, I have not proposed these to the CF staff because it is a kind of "chicken and the egg" problem, so I have no idea how they might react).
Thought No. 1
Elaborating on an aside I made in the Ninja thread, I think there is a great deal of GH "canon" material coming out of 3rd Edition that is not being recognized or even commented upon (for a variety of possible reasons). A lot of this material may be charitably described as "different" and without a ready place in established GH canon. It occurs to me that one place where it might be very useful is in fleshing out those portions of Oerik that are beyond the strict confines of the Flanaess.
We have two maps of Western Oerik - the Chainmail Map and the Dragon Annual Map - with some description of what Western Oerik looks like. There are, however, many open areas. By way of example of potential discussion, the Warlock is newly introduced in the Complete Arcane; perhaps the Warlock is a dominant class, replacing the sorceror, somewhere in Western Oerik. Alternatively, there is the question of how to relate Western Oerik to the Flanaess so that it "feels like Greyhawk," IMO a fascinating potential discussion. These types of matters and much more might be explored in a WESTERN OERIK FORUM/FOLDER. These are examples of what might be explored in a dedicated discussion of Western Oerik.
Thought No. 2
I know with extreme confidence that I am not alone in finding the planes (upper, lower and in between) fascinating as they relate to Greyhawk. I don't think I need to say much more about the specifics of this potential folder/forum. There is literally a ton of material to work with and I have never seen it discussed except in passing or when an individual shares their take on one element or another. In a dedicated OUTER PLANES FORUM/FOLDER, a more far ranging and complete discussion might be had.
Here's the rub. Speaking strictly for myself, I do not want to (under CF Rules as I understand them) "sponsor" or "officially propose" either folder unless I am convinced that people have an interest and will participate. And I mean - WILL PARTRICIPATE. REGULARLY. WITHOUT PROMPTING. I do not want to clog CFs arteries with folders/forums that average one post every two weeks, or worse. My personal interest in these topics, by itself, is IMO not suifficient.
So, my question - are people interested in either of the folder/forum suggestions I have briefly outlined or would people prefer all discussion be had here? Anyone can run with/propose officially either idea to suit themselves if they want to, I claim no primacy, nor will I be "offended," but I will go forward only if I see a "show of hands" sufficient to make me believe I would not be wasting my and others time. By the samr token, I'm happy to hear from people who would like discussion kept in this folder/forum. You will not hurt my feelings.
The rate of postings to those folders is, politely, "variable," but certainly nowhere near what is posted to this, more general, area. IMO, and only IMO, the d20 GH and Epic GH forums are "failures," if one is to judge by number of posts and frequency of posts. No offense to those posting there and the sponsors good intentions.
While the rate of posting is variable I think calling them failures is a bit premature, I can point to several threads in the general discussions that possibly belong in there already..two started by yourself.
That said those smaller forums are more projects and open lists for projects rather than for collecting thoughts on who thinks what of this certain topic or for gathering collective opinions.
GVDammerung wrote:
Quote:
Here's the rub. Speaking strictly for myself, I do not want to (under CF Rules as I understand them) "sponsor" or "officially propose" either folder unless I am convinced that people have an interest and will participate. And I mean - WILL PARTRICIPATE. REGULARLY. WITHOUT PROMPTING. I do not want to clog CFs arteries with folders/forums that average one post every two weeks, or worse. My personal interest in these topics, by itself, is IMO not suifficient.
Hmm..if you cant fuel a project along with your own interests and abilities then why wait? Enthusiasm is infectious and good material encourages others as well as sets a standard. Participation will wax and wane regardless of interest. Dont wait for others to do good work that you have energy and ideas for. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
Definitely interested (and would initiate posts/topics) on the Western Oerik Forum, especially with the lack of Canon material.
The Planes Forum doesn't hold much interest for me, but I've got a little bit of experience playing with the planes, so I would probably pop in from time to time.
Curious timing, as I was just about to post a request for information about areas outside the Darlene map...
As for integrating the new core classes and PrCs from the splatbooks, which fall outside of Canon for the most part, I too would be curious to see how other DMs accomplished this sticky trick. _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
As for integrating the new core classes and PrCs from the splatbooks, which fall outside of Canon for the most part, I too would be curious to see how other DMs accomplished this sticky trick.
Sounds like a D20 folder project _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
Hey GVD, I thought I'd throw my 2 coppers into this. I've always been interested in the planes, particularly the lower. So as for me I'd enjoy seeing a planes forum. And now that I'm back after almost four months, I'm very eager to run my mouth..or..well fingers I suppose. _________________ Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.
Well, I have to agree, GVD. It seems to me that something is just not right. I want to caveat the following with my sincerest thanks to all of those who have put in their time and effort to create this site, thos e who maintain it, and to those who contribute to it.
GVD, my thoughts have been running to the question of why? Why do the forums seem to lag off while still teaming with valuable info? What is the purpose of Canonfire in it all? What was its role in the past, and in the future?
Two items of interest come to mind immediately... Nellisir's Underoerth Project, and the Layers of the Abyss thread. And the Topics Archive. There is more here.
I know the first thing... Admins, this is to you, lets call it the Library. An archive is a place where you put stuff that most people are not interested in. Just a personal preference but there it is.
There is something tickling my brain about wasted time and resources. This is not accusatory, just a nagging idea. I am currently working with several consultants to create a fairly massive intranet for my company, in Notes (which i think that this is hosted in), and I am wrestling with the same issues there. I will attempt to outline the problem/thought process. Be aware that I build buildings, most electronic systems turn off immediatley in my presence. So this is somewhat unformed.
This site has an amazing amount of data in it, just look at the sidebar, Giants of Oerth, Undead of Oerth. Not just the articles, but the the threads as well. So when a person begins a thread, such as Rhinegold's thread on the layers of the Abyss, it would be nice if all relevent Articles could be interlinked. Someone like Abysslin could do this in his sleep ( I still find it disturbing the speed with which you can cite all GH resources on a subject ). But, how do we accomplish all of this?
My goal is not to make additional work. This site was created to be an extension of the Greytalk. It has developed into an active posting board. It has the potential to become the ultimate resource for GH, period. It strikes me as the Linux of the Gaming industry. GH may not have a future at WOTC. But, they said the same about it under TSR, and now EM is the editor of both magzines. Odd that, eh. "Free operating systems have no future," but IBM puts a billion dollar and 100 patents towards it.
I know of no other site, for GH, FR or any other setting that provides its member with so much data about the campaign world. This site should be integral into writing GH Canon in the future, provided there is a future for GH. I realize that Canon hits a lot of buttons, but we have to have a common reference. GVD is correct, Prestige Classes are canon. Just because a DM chooses not to include it in his game, does not affect this equation. At this time, 3.5ed is the basis of canon. If we want HBR/WOTC to add to Canon, then we should accept that. There is enough material out there to play for several hundred years, for those who will not change from 1e. Having played (i cannot belive this) for 25 years, I sympathize.
So, my points, are unfocused and incomplete, but thet are these:
1) Just adding threads/forums is not the answer. There is too much going on here, too many man hours for such a chaotic result. CruelSummerLord's Gazatter Addendums should become a staple and an example.
2) The Projects that could/should be done by this group is impressive. OJ is a great start. I know of no GH DMs who have not heard of it. However, the simple amount of info that is available is more than most succesful D20 companies have produced.
Well, those are enough points for now, I am tired and unclear about where this is heading, but this site has become a staple to my gaming and I want to see it grow. I will return with more thoughts as they become clearer. If they become clearer.
I agree with much of what has been said in this thread. And as many of you I have been playing in the World of Greyhawk since 1983. I am tried of it? No. I am the kind of person who can listen to an album over and over again.
I agree that both the underworld of Oerth and Western Oerth need/should be developed. The lack of development I partially blame on Living Greyhawk for its myopic view of GH. I also believe you need a reason or reasons to flesh out these areas which would fit within the overall canon of Greyhawk.
To me GH is like a beautiful sand Mandala as made by the Buddhist monks and like those same monks I am going to destroy much my GH forcing many of the peoples either underground or westward. I will still leaving some areas of Greyhawk less touched then others. I will use the 8 criteria to create this world while introducing new races and power players. GVD you may or may not be please to know that I intend to use Pale as one of the major culprits in this transformation.
This is why I have been reading as much canon as I can find to help with this idea. I would love to participate in a forum that would expand Greyhawk beyond where it is now.
Anced _math you are very correct in suggesting that Archives should be called a Library. I very much agree with your Linux analogy, which in turn like Linux may result various flavours of Greyhawk, all valid and mostly interchangable with much open source material. _________________ "Its a dangerous business going out your front door." JRR Tolkien
Unless you are a Greyhawk Heretic.
BTW it may have been awhile since you looked at it but here is the link for hosting your own Forum here.
The current hosted forums got off to a slow start but picked up steam as they went along. Give it a shot, who knows? If it flops then it can be folded back into the WoG discussion. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
I have to admit that it is mainly laziness as to why I don't check out other areas of the site - there is plenty to keep me occupied whilst istting at work in this forum. But also I don't really enjoy the Epic stuff so that's another reason I don't visit or post there.
However, I think the forums you're suggesting are a good idea. I'd definitely be interested in one involved with figuring out how to fit new material into the Greyhawk setting - I love the challenege and the problem solving required.
The Planes and Western Oerik are both interesting...why not just have one Forum or whatever the term is for a 'Beyond the Flanaess' that could tackle Western Oerik, the Planes, the Underdark and anywhere else. That way all these topics ar ein the same place and more threads are there to pique your interest.
I agree with Defthand - if it doesn't get quite the response you'd hope - switch it back to this forum. It's definitely worth a try!
I don't see the "Project forums" as failures, just, um, not for me. I don't read the "stuff for sale" forum either. They are under one person's control -- whether or not they're failure's is entirely up to that person.
I could see a new forum possibly cataloguing new canon material, but I wouldn't want to break the General forum into a whole lot of little sub-forums. I could have requested a "Underoerth Project" forum, but I much prefer the thread, and similar threads, remain in the General forum, where it'll keep floating up and into the view of people who haven't bothered to check it out the first 20 times.
They are under one person's control -- whether or not they're failure's is entirely up to that person.
The forums are for everyone and while one person hosts it doesnt mean that others cant join in or share ideas. I think that the WoG discussion forum is safe from being balkanized anytime soon but its nice to see smaller specific discussions having the focus to help develop them into full fledged projects and articles. But its also discouraging to hear that people feel that they arent worth their time to contribute.
Just some thoughts. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
They are under one person's control -- whether or not they're failure's is entirely up to that person.
The forums are for everyone and while one person hosts it doesnt mean that others cant join in or share ideas. I think that the WoG discussion forum is safe from being balkanized anytime soon but its nice to see smaller specific discussions having the focus to help develop them into full fledged projects and articles. But its also discouraging to hear that people feel that they arent worth their time to contribute.
<sigh>
Look, my understanding was that the Greyhawk d20 forum was begun under Delglath's control, that it was his project and his baby, and that was it. That was certainly what was posted. and accordingly, whether or not that sort of forum is a failure is entirely up to the judgement of that sole person in charge. If they're are the only person posting in it, and they're happy with that, more power to them. Doesn't disturb me one bit.
As to whether or not it's "worth my time", well...if I was more interested, then it'd be worth it. But I'm not, so it's generally not, and that also has nothing to do with anyone or anything here. I'm just not that interested in the two "project" forums currently here, nor do I have the time to get involved in a "project" -- the Oerth Journal is quite enough of a wrench in my plans, thank you.
Incidently, is there an actual project in the Greyhawk d20 Project folder, or is it just a discussion forum now? Cause if there's no goal, the name should be changed.
I think that's about it for me in this discussion. Time to think about something more creative.
Incidently, is there an actual project in the Greyhawk d20 Project folder, or is it just a discussion forum now? Cause if there's no goal, the name should be changed.
The name of the Greyhawk d20 Folder is simply Greyhawk d20 Folder, no special projects yet Is there a goal? Thats up to those that post in there, if we can come up with one that would be great. If we dont and just post ideas or topics that someone can use great. I've already posted the intro in an ealier thread, that shows that one person is NOT the sole poster but simply a host and the link I provide also shows what the goal of the project is. If look at the header for all four in there now, I dont see why it should be changed or the problem with putting GH material there that relates to d20.
As for moving onto something more creative, I'm all for that but dont be so discouraged at an attempt to clarify the topic. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
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Is there a goal? Thats up to those that post in there, if we can come up with one that would be great. If we dont and just post ideas or topics that someone can use great. I've already posted the intro in an ealier thread, that shows that one person is NOT the sole poster but simply a host and the link I provide also shows what the goal of the project is. If look at the header for all four in there now, I dont see why it should be changed or the problem with putting GH material there that relates to d20.
