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    Canonfire :: View topic - Which Nations Have Proper Cavaliers?
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    Which Nations Have Proper Cavaliers?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri May 01, 2020 7:09 pm  
    Which Nations Have Proper Cavaliers?

    This question is most pertinent to 1e AD&D games, but also relevant to the Knight (3.5) and Cavalier (Pathfinder) classes.

    Certainly, many nations have a social rank of knight, and lesser nobles who occupy that rank. But, as Gygax said in the original Guide, a knight does not an Order of Knighthood make.

    So I'm wondering if you'd limit the actual cavalier class, with the code of chivalry and the band of followers, et al, to the Knights of the Watch, Knights of the Hart, Knights of Luna, & Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom; or should cavaliers be able to spring up nearly anywhere?

    To me, despite their love of mounted combat, cavaliers amongst the Rovers of the Barrens doesn't sit right. Nor the barbarian states or Amedio Jungle. Very uncertain about the Baklunish. Nor even the Free Cities like Greyhawk or Dyvers. Maybe not even the Yeomanry?

    Also, would Furyondy, Veluna, Highfolk have knights unaffiliated with the Order of the Hart?

    Again, I'm mainly interested in members of the actual cavalier class—not simply the existence of a noble with the title Knight.

    (Side question: Exactly what nobility is there in the Domain of Greyhawk? Are there knights and barons who pledge fealty to the Lord Mayor? Is that not weird because the Lord Mayor's blood isn't necessarily noble? Would this be the same in Dyvers, Verbobonc, and other free cities?)
    CF Admin

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    Fri May 01, 2020 7:58 pm  
    Re: Which Nations Have Proper Cavaliers?

    edmundscott wrote:
    So I'm wondering if you'd limit the actual cavalier class, with the code of chivalry and the band of followers, et al, to the Knights of the Watch, Knights of the Hart, Knights of Luna, & Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom; or should cavaliers be able to spring up nearly anywhere?


    I would definitely allow cavaliers to belong to other orders. Searching on "knights of" in Jason's index leaves the following names knightly orders, most of which could certainly contain cavaliers:

    ==
    Azharadin, Glaives of (Knights of)
    Demonic Knights of Doom (Fiend-Knights of Doom)
    Gray Knights of the Great Skull, The (Hextoran)
    High Forest, Knights of the
    Holy Knights of Rao
    Knights of Dispatch (Dispatchers)
    Knights of Furyondy
    Knights of Luna
    Knights of Rao, Holy
    Knights of Sun and Moon
    Knights of the Book
    Knights of the Chase
    Knights of the High Forest
    Knights of the Holy Shielding (Shield Knights)
    Knights of the Iron Nation (Iron Nation Knights)
    Knights of the Mace
    Knights of the Malachite Throne
    Knights of the March
    Knights of the Order of the Hart
    Knights of the Watch (Watchers)
    Knights of Veluna
    ==

    In addition to the orders, it seems quite reasonable that noble families would have the resources, status, and heritage/tradition of cavaliers amongst their ranks, with Deirde Longhand (from EGG's Artifact of Evil novel) a good example of such: https://greyhawkonline.com/flanpc/#deirdre

    edmundscott wrote:
    Also, would Furyondy, Veluna, Highfolk have knights unaffiliated with the Order of the Hart?


    Yes, I would think so. I don't see all knights as part of a formal order---many could be simple fighters that were granted the additional status of knighthood in reward for service, or have inherited it, etc.

    edmundscott wrote:
    Again, I'm mainly interested in members of the actual cavalier class—not simply the existence of a noble with the title Knight.


    I can certainly imagine cavaliers that exist without full knighthoods, as well, FWIW.

    edmundscott wrote:
    (Side question: Exactly what nobility is there in the Domain of Greyhawk? Are there knights and barons who pledge fealty to the Lord Mayor? Is that not weird because the Lord Mayor's blood isn't necessarily noble? Would this be the same in Dyvers, Verbobonc, and other free cities?)


    I imagine the free cities to differ from each other as much as they collectively differ from established feudal states.

    Allan.
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    GreySage

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    Fri May 01, 2020 9:12 pm  

    I consider 'Knight' to be a separate and distinct title from the class of 'Cavalier'.

    Certainly a knight of a particular order may be a cavalier and any cavalier may be a member of a knighthood. But, the two are not necessarily bound together.

    Any person may be 'knighted', or may be invited to join a knightly order. Usually, that person will have distinguished themselves in some impressive manner, which means they have some skill in an adventuring class. Fighter types, and especially actual cavaliers, are more drawn to the qualities that knightly orders look for, so most invitees are of those classes.

    Cavaliers are not simply soldiers that are skilled at mounted combat and follow a specific code of conduct. Actual cavaliers are exceptional individuals that acted as squires to senior cavaliers and learned, and developed, the very specific skills and qualities that make one a member of the cavalier class. For example, a man-at-arms that serves the same cavalier as does his squire learns skill-at-arms and becomes much better at it (advancing slowly as a Fighter, or a Warrior in later editions), but he doesn't gain the skills and abilities of a cavalier because he isn't being taught those specific skills.

    Therefore, with respect to your original question - Where might actual cavaliers be found within the Flanaess? - I say they can come from anywhere there is a nobility that sends their sons to squire for established cavaliers in the kingdom. I say nobility because the trappings of a cavalier are quite expensive (armor and weapons, horse and barding, higher living standards, etc.). Of course, cavaliers in non-European fantasy nations may be quite different in appearance than the knight-in-shining-armor commonly associated with the class. Remember the Muslim noble and his bodyguard in Kingdom of Heaven? He was even referred to as a cavalier in the movie. The noble was a cavalier and the bodyguard was a squire (which, in game terms, means he was a lower-level cavalier).

    I wouldn't say that the Rovers of the Barrens, the Paynims, any nation south of Saltmarsh, any of the barbarian north, Ratik, Stonefist, or the Tiger or Wolf Nomads have actual cavaliers in their societies, but all of the central states, the northern Baklunish nations, the Pale, Tenh, and Perrenland probably do. I could see Iuz and Blackmoor as possibilities, though they would be blackguards rather than knights of weal.

    SirXaris
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat May 02, 2020 7:11 am  

    Cavaliers in my 1E campaign:

    Major Orders
    • Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom
    • Knights of Holy Shielding
    • Knights of the Watch
    • Order of the Hart
      • Knights of Furyondy
      • Knights of Veluna
      • Knights of the High Forest

    Minor Orders
    • Aelavellin Corellon (“Sword Knights of Corellon”)
    • Bar Rampant (Duchy of Urnst)
    • Knights of the Chase (followers of Trithereon)
    • Knights of the Realm of Nyrond
    • Knights of the Realm of Sunndi
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun May 03, 2020 2:00 pm  

    A knight is simply a person who comes from a social class that allows him to spend all his time training for war. The training is fairly specific. They are the bottom of the totem pole in a so called "feudal" system in terms of rank and authority. The title is not hereditary, but a knight could generally count on his sons being knights if he could afford to equip them.

    They served nobles with land grants, and may or may not have land of their own. But they had respect and rights the commoners did not have.

    Chivarlry didn't play into it. That was a later invention, more to glorify and entertain than having any sort of reality. Knights were war machines. Full stop.

    Not all knights were nobles and not all nobles were knights. Some were both.

    Orders of Knighthood were organizations of brotherhood, honorifics from the monarch (eg Knights of the Garter), or religious orders (such as the Knights Templar or the Knights Hospitalier) who were the militant arms of the Church.

    So Furydony would have lots of knights who served the various noble houses in of the realm. Most would NOT be members of particular orders nor have any real kind of obligation of behavior other than "obey your lord." Then there would be the knights of orders like Knights of the Hart who unified for a specific purpose. Example, the Knights of Holy Shielding, whose sole goal was the reclamation of the Shield Lands.
    CF Admin

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    Sun May 03, 2020 8:34 pm  
    Re: Which Nations Have Proper Cavaliers?

    edmundscott wrote:
    This question is most pertinent to 1e AD&D games, but also relevant to the Knight (3.5) and Cavalier (Pathfinder) classes. . . .

    To me, despite their love of mounted combat, cavaliers amongst the Rovers of the Barrens doesn't sit right. Nor the barbarian states or Amedio Jungle. Very uncertain about the Baklunish. Nor even the Free Cities like Greyhawk or Dyvers. Maybe not even the Yeomanry?

    I don't think that I would have used the 1e UA cavalier to represent Rovers or Wolf or Tiger Nomads.

    Except for Ekbir, once, I didn't feature the Baklunish states in my 1e campaigns, but if I was to do so today, I think that a slightly modified cavalier class would be appropriate for Ket, Tusmit, Ekbir, and Zeif though probably not Ull or the Paynims.

    The Pathfinder (PF) cavalier would be particularly useful in this regard because of the myriad possible Cavalier Orders. (IIRC, the 3.5e Knight featured a similarly adaptable class ability.)

    Especially with the LGG background on Baklunish culture, some of their horsemen would be well represented by the PF cavalier though with an Order that featured chainmail or breastplate armor rather than plate mail and other heavy armors, scimitars rather than bastard swords, etc.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue May 05, 2020 7:46 pm  

    I agree with SirXaris that knights are separate from cavaliers. Wizards, rogues and clerics could all fill various roles in the Knights of the Watch or the Knights of Luna, and they would still be full members even if they didn't fight on the front lines.

    As I see it, cavaliers would hail from countries with strong martial traditions and a European-inspired code of aristocratic chivalry. That means they would probably come from Oeridian- and Suel-majority societies. Countries such as Geoff, Tenh and the Rovers of the Barrens, which all have the Native American-inspired Flan as their majorities, probably wouldn't have them. The Suel barbarians, the Pomarj, the Nomads and Stonehold wouldn't have them either because they don't have the chivalrous tradition that's needed.

    Nor would countries that are militarily weak generate them either. Thus, military lightweights like Onnwal, Greyhawk, the Scarlet Brotherhood, the County of Ulek, Dyvers, the County of Urnst or the Bandit Kingdoms wouldn't have cavaliers. The Hold of the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles and the Sea Barons have powerful navies, but their weak land forces precludes their having cavaliers.

    The countries that do have cavaliers would include the Great Kingdom and its successor states, Ratik, the revived Bone March, Irongate, Sunndi, Idee, Nyrond, the Pale (albeit with a religiously-inspired chivalrous code rather than an aristocratic one), the Duchy of Urnst, the Horned Empire, some of the Cells of Iuz (black knights need to work somewhere!), Perrenland, Celene, the Principality and Duchy of Ulek, Bissel, Gran March, Sterich and even Keoland.

    As MTG alluded to, there could be equivalents in the Baklunish states. I don't know enough about Arab history to know if the Middle Eastern countries had historical equivalents to chivalrous knights, so I can't comment on their Baklunish equivalents.
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Wed May 06, 2020 2:23 am  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:


    As I see it, cavaliers would hail from countries with strong martial traditions and a European-inspired code of aristocratic chivalry. That means they would probably come from Oeridian- and Suel-majority societies. Countries such as Geoff, Tenh and the Rovers of the Barrens, which all have the Native American-inspired Flan as their majorities, probably wouldn't have them.


    Certainly nothing wrong with Native American Flan for your own campaign, but care to dispute the points I made about Flan being a conglomeration of European peoples such as Balts, Helvitii, celts, gauls etc... ?

    Why would Geoffites or Tenha not produce cavaliers? With the Rovers I can agree that a cossack and erroneously included Amerind reference culture seems to make cavaliers and knights unlikely.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed May 06, 2020 3:04 am  

    Most nations that sponsor a knightly order will have knights, and I mean national knights. The Knights of the Hart, for example, operate a factional order out of Furyondy by royal charter, but they are not the King's knights. They are separate. There are also Knights of Furyondy, who are knighted by he King. The Knights of the Hart can make their own knights(i.e. knight them), at their own discretion, though the oaths taken by new members to that order also include oaths to the King of Furyondy. Some nations may have knights while not sponsoring knightly orders; usually for political or religious reasons.
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    Wed May 06, 2020 6:41 pm  

    JasonZavoda wrote:

    Certainly nothing wrong with Native American Flan for your own campaign, but care to dispute the points I made about Flan being a conglomeration of European peoples such as Balts, Helvitii, celts, gauls etc... ?

    Why would Geoffites or Tenha not produce cavaliers? With the Rovers I can agree that a cossack and erroneously included Amerind reference culture seems to make cavaliers and knights unlikely.


    Geoff and Tenh would not produce cavaliers because I see them as having retained more of the older Flan traditional culture than most other Flanaess states. Oeridian/Sueloise traditions like the chivalric code took much less root than ones the Flan would have found more practically useful (e.g. modern military structures).

    As for the Flan being a conglomeration of various European peoples, I seem to recall Sean K Reynolds writing in the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory that the Olmans were supposedly related to the Flan, a connection that would exist more between First Nations and Mesoamericans than between Mesoamericans and Europeans.

    Also, how connected were the early Celts to the Cossacks of Eastern Europe?It sounds like Cossack terms would be as foreign to a Celtic-inspired people as they would be to an Amerind-inspired one.

    And while the Celts were certainly animistic and might work in conjunction with nature the way the Flan do, the same can be just as easily applied to the Amerinds.
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