I was thinking a nice addition to the Oerth Journal each issue might be one or two "classic" Canonfire! articles. Interesting articles that might not have gotten the exposure they really deserve, or introductions to longer articles and article series that can then be followed up on at CF! itself. Overall length in the OJ would probably be no more than 2-3 pages for a single reprinted article. Obviously various permissions would be needed, most importantly the author's, but that's a pretty simply thing to do.
What do people think? Any suggestions? I'd be looking for lesser-known articles with great "flavor", not meta-game articles like who was trapped under Castle GH.
Sounds reasonable to me, Nell, and you could also offer folks the opportunity to expand/revise/etc. their pieces if they were interested---sort of a second crack at a previously-covered topic..... _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I don't have any problem submitting material to OJ, or CF for that matter, but I think the two should remain distinct.
Recycling CF articles, unless like Grodog suggests, they are significantly expanded or revised, will just make it look like OJ is short on material and trying to pad the page count. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
I agree with the addition of old CF articles if the authors were given an opportunity to update or flesh out what was previously posted. That not only brings great old ideas back to the forefront, but adds something new so it is not just the same old thing.
Having said that, I nominated an oldie but goodie, the Shadows over Keoland campaign. It is in the campaign journal topic (I linked it on the thread you have on the general subject forums). If you can contact Jesse Dean to make some revisions, this would be a top notch OJ article.
On due reflection, no offense but I hate this idea.
If the OJ can't get original material, it should go out of business, IMO. An OJ that runs "reprints" serves no purpose that I can immediately divine.
If the OJ is having trouble getting original material, I think a big part of that is editorial policy and a change in that policy would likely fix matters.
As I have read the OJ, it started out as a fanzine in a pre-CF topical archive world. It became, IMO, bigheaded, bloated and self-important with the advent of "pro" or "semi-pro" articles (Rob Kuntz etc.) and has not otherwise well imagined its role or place in a CF world.
IMO, the OJ either needs to continue to develop its "quasi-pro" content (Dungeon author article "leftovers?") or radically rethink its relationship to the fanbase.
I think the OJ is a "good thing" and I do not want it to close up shop. I have, however, no use for an OJ as CF reprinter.
As Comicbook Guy would say - "Worst idea, EVER." _________________ GVD
If the OJ can't get original material, it should go out of business, IMO. An OJ that runs "reprints" serves no purpose that I can immediately divine.
If the OJ is having trouble getting original material, I think a big part of that is editorial policy and a change in that policy would likely fix matters.
The Oerth Journal is an online, pdf ezine. There are -no- page requirements. I could do a 20-page OJ, or a 400-page one. I don't need to fluff it up.
That said, the OJ gets less submissions than you think it does, and always has. I got submissions in my earlier run by going out and banging on doors, so to speak -- pretty much exactly what I'm cranking up to do now. In that previous run on the OJ, I rejected exactly one article (more of a suggestion for a complete rewrite and a resubmission to a later OJ, which happened and the article was much improved), and withheld two which were never completed (I'm working on it). So you could go through OJ's 8-11 and find out exactly how many articles were submitted.
If there's a part of the editorial policy you think is bogging people down, I'm be very curious to hear it. The only thing that springs to mind is my strong preference not to publish material that has been available on the web within the last year, and changing that wouldn't really help get original material.
My reasons for adding CF! content to the OJ would be to make people aware of the breadth and depth of the CF material available. You could cynically view it as an attempt to promote CF! (which would mean you don't know me very well -- I'm about as uninvolved in this site as you can be and still be involved), or as an attempt to help out all the new LGH DMs and players out there, and lead them to the largest trove of GH lore on the internet.
Quote:
I think the OJ is a "good thing" and I do not want it to close up shop.
Not likely to happen. I'm a bit slow with #16, but a little part of it is setting the groundwork to make future issues a little bit quicker to layout and format (a bigger part, for the curious, was my wife's desire to have a floor in the living room -- finished this past Saturday). I've also talked to Ron Carey about future covers.
If there's a part of the editorial policy you think is bogging people down, I'm be very curious to hear it.
Cheers
Nell.
Well, since you asked. And after I opened my big mouth.
First, I think you have already identified and are addressing one issue - timeliness of issues. The time it takes to OJ is, I think, something of a turn off, at least to me.
Second, there is a wiff of the "scholarly journal" to the OJ, the scent of pretention, that somehow the OJ is "better." The semi-pro stuff exacerbates this, I think. Until there is more of a sense of general welcome, I think you will need to extend invitations and "bang on doors." Part of creating a welcome can be fixed with point three, immediately below.
Third, the OJ needs to raise its profile. I didn't even know what was going on until you posted in the General folder. While I could have tracked the OJ down, arguably you would not want people to have to do so. The OJ could, IMO, stand to toot its own horn more and more consistently. For example, are you now the editor? I don't know.
Fourth, except that there is a greater editorial process involved with the OJ, what does the OJ do that the CF article archive does not? What about the OJ's mission makes is "special?" Or even just "different?"
In a pre-CF world, the OJ memorialized fan creations when there was no other such venue. Now, CF does that at an approximate rate of one new article every two days. The OJ as communal respository or institutional memory is no longer necessary in a CF-World.
So what is the OJ's mission? In precise terms. And how does that materially and significantly differ from CF's article archive?
Having stuck my toe into these waters, I will offer that the present OJ is by a significant measure redundent of CF. At least as far as I can tell.
I think there are at least two ways out of this predictiment, if you agree that there is a predictement.
First, the OJ can look to "tailor" its content through the use of more of a "magazine" approach. Early OJ's toyed with this under Mona but later OJs seem to have given up on it.
Second, the OJ can do theme issues wherein a single topic is covered from more angles or in more indepth. Almost an "OJ-Fest."
Along the "OJ-Fest" line, three comments.
First, the OJ may wish to develop a "working stack" of submissions in addition to an immediate "publish next issue stack." The working stack would be building toward the theme issue(s).
Second, the OJ may wish to recruit a "stable" of 3 or 4 "contributing editors" or "regulars" who can give you reliable production as you build toward a "theme" in the "working stack." They would also contribute to the "working stack." Maybe they just agree to produce for a set number of issues rather than indefinitely. Then there would be a need to continue to recruit to replace "contributing editors" as some may choose to depart after their "hitch" as "regulars."
Third, to make both or either work you need increased speed of production and a higher profile so that there is more of a "near term gratification," even if it will never be "immediate gratification."
Lastly, the OJ could use its own website. On CF, the OJ is just another option. On its own site, the OJ is the star of the show. An OJ webchat would also work to build comraderie among the "contributing editors," and potential contributors. Once a month?
Basically, in addition to an editor and assistant editors or an editorial board, there needs to be a dedicated (at least for some number of issues, on a rotating basis whathaveyou) "Team OJ." Couple that with a higher profile and a shorter production cycle (say one OJ every six months with a goal of 3 a year; one a quarter may be asking too much) so there is more near term "gratification" and I think you have an institution on your hands that would prove quite a bit more popular and effective.
GDV has some great idea, but I suspect that it is a problem of just not enough people. For OJ, I got a feel, not of pretention, but of aspiration. I think that is good.
I see the same thing going on between the forums and posts. With regard to forums, it looks to me that recently there have been some things on magic items and gods that sould have been posts. Like they are there for sharing and not just rough discussion. Perhaps the authors though it was just a small contribution, not worthy of a post, let alone an OJ? Perhaps not. Echos of the postfests debate?
Perhaps OJ and CF staff could coordinate to move articles around from one place to the other. With the consent of the authors, a plan for future OJs and timely releases of OJ I think that could work. Timely releases would be necessary to be fair to both authors and readers. Without a plan for future OJs, you can't get that, and you will really have to get into picking based on quality of authorship, and that can be discouraging, especially if editing can make up the difference.
The OJ could, IMO, stand to toot its own horn more and more consistently. For example, are you now the editor? I don't know.
You and me both, buddy. More on this in a moment.
Quote:
First, the OJ can look to "tailor" its content through the use of more of a "magazine" approach. Early OJ's toyed with this under Mona but later OJs seem to have given up on it.
Give me an example of "magazine-style" OJs, please. I have my opinions, but I'm going to keep quiet until I hear your reply. Then maybe I'll lay out The Plan.
Cheers
Nell.
Edit: I forget not everyone works off the original OJs stored in my computer. Be aware someone went through many of the earlier Oerth Journals and reformatted them. Some of the changes were good, some are crap. Cheers!
Last edited by Nellisir on Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Nice thread. I grabbed some time, so I'll respond, especially because I'm excited that Nelllisir has picked up this project.
I'd prefer to be prospective, but in order to explain my response, I need to refer to some history.
The last few issues of the OJ, volume I were great, IMO. Nell, Rick La Rue, and Ron Carey apparently organized a good set of authors and supplemented those pieces with appropriate editing, illustration, and formatting. Eventually, the productivity of that formation subsided.
Some time later, Jason Zavoda, of Index fame, started a minor flamewar--putatively to encourage regular production of the OJ. Nell. handed Jason the reins, so to speak, and JZ organized a group of people to begin producing the volumne II issues. Unfortunately, IMO, Jason preferred quantity over quality. PDF had come into being, but Jason was satisfied with a regularly produced RTF. In light of what had been produced at the end of volume I, this production standard was inadequate. Also, Jason, while a compelling author doesn't care to edit, again IMO.
Eventually Jason had to step down his activity. I volunteered to "take the reins." While I was interested in producing new issues, since Ron Carey had already re-engaged the project, one of my priorities was to obtain quality illustration and formatting. I was motivated with what came before--at the end of volume I. To me, the OJ needed to be produced well, with high standards that took advantage of current technology. Additionally, because I studied visual methods of social science, I believed that illustrations could substantially augment written articles and that this was one of the strengths of the OJ--over most other GH media/fora.
However, I like many of us lacked a lot of free time, and well-done editing takes a lot of time. Additionally I lacked experience in organizing volunteers and the ability to train people to edit in a consistent way. We all have various levels of education and different philosophies about editing.
To me, the OJ and CF are complementary since the OJ offers the opportunity for an author to collaborate with other fans, who agree to provide editing suggestions and to line edit. Additionally, the OJ provides illustration and formatting resources that CF doesn't provide. On CF's side, there is the relatively regular and frequent posting of articles.
Publishing in the OJ also has a sort of reputational benefit, but I never thought of this as exclusive. Instead, what Erik and Nell did, and what I tried to follow was an earnest interest in GH and a willingness to play with the fantasy that we were involved in a quasi-scholarly endeavor. If this came off as something else, then that's too bad. I never felt that the OJ or the old Council of Greyhawk were an old-boys club since my experiences were that folks were interested in a newcomer's creative contributions.
However, the OJ production schedule basically died under my tenure. We produced about an issue a year, so I finally handed the reins to Andy Seale, who was one of our regular contributing authors and was the only person who expressed interest in becoming responsible for the OJ.
Unfortunately, after Jason, none of us regularly promoted the OJ. I was turned off by his "The Oerth Journal Speaks" posts (on GreyTalk) and therefore didn't continue them. Instead I felt that the editorial was the best place to record observations and aspirations about the OJ. Unfortunately, there is a better/happier medium--where the OJ is promoted regularly but not in a way that identifies it overly with one person.
The OJ is a collaborative effort. It requires the editors and authors (and illustrators and formatters) to produce and belongs to no one person, IMO.
Issak offered a website, but this offer was never taken. I think it should be done but have lacked the time to volunteer to design it. (Plus my website-designing skills are fair-to-middling.)
I'll end by saying that I'm delighted to hear that Nell. (and Andy?) have a plan, and ostensibly the time, to evolve the OJ. Oh, I'll quote the Contribution Guidelines I crafted too.
MTG
PS - Remember there is an OJ FAQ on CF too.
~~~~~
The Oerth Journal is perhaps the oldest e-zine dedicated to publishing creative and quality works for the World of Greyhawk. As an institution of the online Greyhawk community, the Oerth Journal is a prestigious site of publication for authors who desire a close editing relationship.
Philosophy
The Oerth Journal is a collaborative project of people who care about the Greyhawk setting. All staff are volunteers and always interested in receiving submissions from people desiring to contribute their time and talent. Authors and visual artists are encouraged to consider the Oerth Journal as a way to share one's ideas and talents with other people who enjoy exploring and detailing the World of Greyhawk. In addition to publishing high quality articles of interest to fans of the Greyhawk setting, our goal is to help authors improve their craft of writing.
Articles
If you have an article to submit, or would merely like to discuss an idea for an article, please send e-mail to the current editor-in-chief, Marc Tizoc Gonzalez, at oj@canonfire.com. Please allow two weeks for a response. After the editors review a submission, then the editor-in-chief will inform you of the decision. Accepted submissions typically undergo several rounds of editing and revision.
We prefer to receive complete submissions as email attachments in (doc) format and use functions of Microsoft Word to edit articles. If you do not use (doc) format, we also accept (txt) or (rtf) formats. Articles should cite contributing sources and utilize standard conventions to distinguish copywritten and trademarked materials. Editors are happy to help with this task.
People who submit articles represent themselves to be the original authors of the submissions, or in the case of interviews, represent themselves already to have received permission to publish from the interview subject. Authors are held to the simple standard of not misrepresenting their authorship of submitted material. If we determine that someone is not the actual author of submitted material, then the material will not be published and the editor-in-chief will announce the finding throughout the online forums that feature Greyhawk.
Fiction
Previous to the second volume, the Oerth Journal did not publish pure fan fiction, i.e. stories by themselves. With issue 12 (volume II, number 1), the Oerth Journal began to publish stand alone stories, and the current editor-in-chief remains interested in publishing works that use narrative forms to describe characters, things, places, and events of the World of Greyhawk. Ideally, these stories will be supplemented by more traditional role playing game information, such as character summaries, magic item or place descriptions, or other game statistics. If an author wants help with game rules, editors are available to help. (Also, game rules need not be limited to D&D. The Oerth Journal accepts articles that utilize other game systems.)
Illustrations
Interested artists should email queries to Marc Tizoc Gonzalez oj@canonfire.com, and please cc: our art director, Ron Carey rcarey2@earthlink.net. The Oerth Journal is very interested in presenting evocative images that complement articles. Imagery is a powerful and exciting means to explore further the World of Greyhawk.
Regular Columns
At its end, the first volume of the Oerth Journal utilized six regular departments. In issue 13 (volume II, number 2), Of Oerth and Altar returned. The Oerth Journal remains interested in reviving old columns and eventually in starting new ones.
Old departments included Dyvers, City of Aventure, which detailed guilds, individuals, locations, and organizations of the City of Sails; With Boccob's Blessing, an in-depth look at a magic item or artifact unique to the World of Greyhawk; Gateway to Adventure, with World of Greyhawk-based adventures; The Good Oerth, featured detailed exploration of "off the map" areas of Oerik and beyond; Denizens of the Flanaess, detailed unique monster NPCs of the Flanaess, and Of Oerth and Altar, which examined Greyhawk's myriad deities.
Planned new columns include Alternate Oerths, which combines interviews with longtime Greyhawk DMs and descriptions of characters and events that distinguish their campaigns; and Zagyg's Crucible, which introduces product reviews, conducted by authors conversant with the World of Greyhawk. Besides reviewing products, such articles suggest how products may be integrated into the Greyhawk setting.
Ethics
From its beginning, the Oerth Journal has been a nonprofit fanzine produced entirely by volunteers and published in various digital formats. The use of trademarked or copywritten material by individual authors and the Oerth Journal itself should not be construed as a challenge to the proprietary rights of any company or individual. As the stewards of a seven year old institution of the online community of Greyhawk fans, the editorial staff of the Oerth Journal takes seriously its responsibility to serve the community while also abiding by the rule of law.
Since the Oerth Journal was founded, various and disparate company policies and interpretations of law have been promoted. Rather than to argue if the Oerth Journal publishes derivative works, the Oerth Journal is premised on the idea that role playing games are designed to elicit fans' detailing of stock characters - to create myriad and diverse instances of fan fiction. While the Oerth Journal staff are highly interested in learning more about how the internet affects copyright, rather than pursue legal avenues, the Oerth Journal attempts to operate in the realm of ethics. We welcome correspondence from individuals and representatives of companies and encourage everyone to promote the spirit of international copyright laws - to protect creator's rights to control their works while also stimulating the creativity and happiness of other people.
Another license?
Although the Oerth Journal has yet to retain any legal advice, the maturation of the internet suggests that the Oerth Journal too must adopt standards of legal disclaimer. While we currently lack the expertise to draw up legal contracts, people who submit works for publication in the Oerth Journal must understand their copyrights, and they should also understand that submission indicates the desire to establish a license with the Oerth Journal for the Journal to publish the article or artwork.
While in the past, the publishing agreements may have been informal and not detailed, presently the Oerth Journal staff are drafting a de facto license based on what past authors seem to have granted.
In the past, authors granted the Oerth Journal the right to publish the work internationally in English in various digital formats. Works were distributed via the internet as part of a single issue of the Journal.
Note that the Oerth Journal never required authors to grant exclusive rights to an article. Also, the Oerth Journal has not necessarily received first rights to publication although during the volume one years, the Oerth Journal had a policy not to publish works that had been otherwise presented online in the past year. Similarly, after a work was published in the Oerth Journal, authors retained the right to present that work in other mediums, formats, or publications, e.g. on their own website, on a Greyhawk related website, submitted to Dragon Magazine, etc. Finally the licenses seem to have been granted to the Oerth Journal as an organization and not to any individual editor.
Marc Tizoc Gonzalez
Editor-in-Chief
The Oerth Journal
June 14, 2002
Give me an example of "magazine-style" OJs, please. I have my opinions, but I'm going to keep quiet until I hear your reply. Then maybe I'll lay out The Plan.
Cheers
Nell.
Edit: I forget not everyone works off the original OJs stored in my computer. Be aware someone went through many of the earlier Oerth Journals and reformatted them. Some of the changes were good, some are crap. Cheers!
Some of the early OJs attempted to have "recurring features," just as there are in Dragon (e.g. Bizarre of the Bazaar).
There was also an attempt to do a "communal project" with Dyvers (I think).
This is what I mean when I say "magazine-like." Most magazines are not just a collection of articles. There are features but there are also "departments" or "columns" - recurring features etc.
I am going to speculate that a lot of this sort of stuff died because people lost interest and I will bet they lost interest because it took so long to produce an OJ. I would move on and then some if the time lag between one effort and another was both unpredictable and likely to be the better part of a year. (Again, I know you are looking at the issue of timeliness). _________________ GVD
I am going to speculate that a lot of this sort of stuff died because people lost interest and I will bet they lost interest because it took so long to produce an OJ. I would move on and then some if the time lag between one effort and another was both unpredictable and likely to be the better part of a year. (Again, I know you are looking at the issue of timeliness).
To make a long story a little shorter, I burned out after issue 10, did 11 because of peer pressure, and then collapsed. Zavoda threw down the gauntlet -- either produce or give someone else a shot -- so I accepted the challenge and "gave" him the OJ. For the record, Rick LaRue absolutely disagreed with me and was pissed as hell -- but he didn't have time to run it either.
Zavoda, in my opinion, wanted less crunch and more of a literary feel, so he abandoned the regular departments Erik and I had introduced. (He also abandoned the logo, pdf, and a few other things.)
Marc coming on was the light at the end of the tunnel, but as he noted, he wasn't able to put in the face time. I think that was a very transitional period, and it was difficult to be a "public face" -- you hardly knew where to go! I think, though, the OJ requires the regular public appearances. This is a wholly volunteer venture, and the public needs to be reminded regularly that they too can contribute, or else everything gradually slides into dust.
Part of my goal is to work out a long-term plan for the OJ (say, issues 17-20) covering schedule, formatting & layout, authors to pursue and persuade, themes, and any other concepts or ideas people might have. Andy Seale (aka Fallon) IS the current editor, despite my far more vocal presence here, and anything I dream up is only going to happen with his approval.
I hope to get moving on this soon, but finishing up #16 is still the priority.
To be fair, you missed my part in the collapse of the OJ. I recall helping Rick and yourself on OJ11 and then offering to take over for OJ12...
We had a hell of a time finding people who were writing at that time (just as 3E came out), and we all had trouble getting the editting done for various reasons.
Of course, then my personal life fell apart and I disappeared for a long while... So I would like to accept some responsibility for the problems the OJ has had over the last few years.
Morgan _________________ Pateris of Urnst
The Technical Bard
Nell,
To be fair, you missed my part in the collapse of the OJ. I recall helping Rick and yourself on OJ11 and then offering to take over for OJ12...
Heh. I think I had ceased to care by that point. If you read the editorial in OJ10, Phil Rhodes was supposed to take over as editor for #11, but HE disappeared.
If you read the editorial in OJ10 you said I was taking over for OJ11.. then OJ11 was done by you, with help from Rick, myself and Ron Carey.
And then there is the giant gap before OJ12 and the whole Zavoda experiment. I note that in my archive of documents we had for OJ 11/12 some ended up in 11 and one ended up in 13...
And methinks there are a couple here that never got published anywhere.
Morgan _________________ Pateris of Urnst
The Technical Bard
If you read the editorial in OJ10 you said I was taking over for OJ11.. then OJ11 was done by you, with help from Rick, myself and Ron Carey.
Oh, good plan! Catch me in an error and give me ANOTHER reason to hate you!
Quote:
And then there is the giant gap before OJ12 and the whole Zavoda experiment. I note that in my archive of documents we had for OJ 11/12 some ended up in 11 and one ended up in 13...
And methinks there are a couple here that never got published anywhere.
I've got at least two - one from Rick LaRue, which I spoke to him a few months ago about expanding to include 3e info; and a lengthy series of notes from QSam about Dyvers that I never got around to turning into an article (and probably won't anytime soon).
I've got a copy of Rick's (about a ruin I think) and QSam's old Dyvers stuff (with a comment from you that you weren't enthralled by it).
I also have something on "Gray Orcs" by Brunson, Something on the "Silverwood" by Barrett, and something by Stromberg about Saltmarsh - none of which to my knowledge ever saw print. Also have one on magic by myself and a buddy that dates back probably 10 years or more. A couple other articles by Len Lakofka on undead and druid spells.
Lots of notes about how all the articles needed to be updated to 3E.
Morgan _________________ Pateris of Urnst
The Technical Bard
I think it's a good idea, Nate. There's literally 100s of excellent, quality articles stashed away on the dusty shelves that are the Canonfire Archives which is the primary reason I run the archive feature on the front page at my leisure. Pains me to see all that great content buried away.
I used to get on MTG about how late OJs rolled around back when I first started helping out with CF. I sure realize I had no clue what I was talking about. The scope of workload is insanely more than I would've ever thought. For me... I'm ready for the OJ whenever it gets here, whether that be tomorrow or 2 years from now. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
Pieces I'd love to see the Oerth Journal publish include Rason's amazing CF article on Baphomet and the collaborative version of Thornward by Lord Tuerny and AshtarX. I wanted to grab the latter at the time it was published but didn't believe I could convince the other CF editors that a piece of that size and detail was better suited to the OJ. Alas.
But seriously, I don't believe there is a problem with republishing articles that are more than a year old, with the author's permission of course, and especially where the author reviews and revises the piece, and we can secure cartography and illustration.
In another year, Ron and I will be done with law school, and Ron's reportedly already contributing in limited ways. We tend to be a dedicated lot. Maybe we'll be able to rejoin the team in the future.
I've often thought what we need and have lacked is a few college students, who have the interest and the relative free time to lead the project. Nellisir's point about the relative disorganization of D&D is a good one. Previously I believed "the problem" had more to do with "our demographic" being in the post-college (for those who went to college) age / life-stage, where raising children and many other things tend to displace the amount of time we can devote to our hobbies.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
