Furyondy got invaded by Iuz and then threw him out.
NextHawk, it should be Keoland's turn.
Sure. Geoff got some big visitors but that's not Keoland.
How shoud Keoland meet its "Waterloo?"
(1) The rise of a new Keolandish Empire brings a demi-human "response" from Celene and the Uleks or from Furyondy/Veluna?
(2) The Scarlet Brotherhood turns out to far more reflect the "real Suel" of Keoland than anyone thought and the Vermellion Queen presides over the Crimson Empire of Keoland? In conjunction with (1) above?
(3) Hateful War II succeeds and those humanoids are put to flight again, this time overrunning a Keoland (or large portions of it) more concerned about byzantine political structures than a government capable of governing in other than peacetime?
(4) Vecna III rises in the Gran March and conquers much of northern Keoland?
(5) The Mahdi of the Plains sweeps through Ket, Bissel, the Gran March and the Sheldomar? "Mongols?" Early conquests of Islam?
(6) The Silent Ones back the overthrow of the Lion Throne to "save" the country?
(7) The Sleeper of Valadis awakens?
(8) A "republican" revolution sweeps Keoland as the common folk look to the Yeomanry's form of government as an ideal compared to the confused Keolandish government that has grown overgrown and corrupt? A Keolandish "Napoleon?"
(9) The opening of Darkgate and Slerotin's tunnel was no accident and a a horde of monsters from the Sea of Dust issues forth, overrunning the Yeomanry and the areas around the Good Hills?
Furyondy got invaded by Iuz and then threw him out.
NextHawk, it should be Keoland's turn.
Well I don't see why it has to be torn apart just because other states have been, but if you count Nyrond's troubles in the Marklands as being torn apart, I wouldn't mind it having a few troubles.
Keoland's responses to threats to it's satellites have been very sclerotic. An actual invasion of Keoish soil (something that - the Gradsul raid aside - hasn't happened...since Vecna probably) by foreign aggressors would really set the cat among the pigeons in Niole Dra and shake the Sleeping Giant of the Sheldomar from its stupor.
A second Hateful War uniting the Lortmils and the Pomarj humanoids boils out into the Valley. Keoland's eastern marches are assailed. Crisis in the Royal capital; an energetic king is elected (Rhola of course - Arise King Luschan); Keoland bestirs itself and set forth on the road to recover its old imperial vigour.
The main reason I have always preferred the Sheldomar to any other areas of Greyhawk is that Keoland is most like the United States, despite and because of the obvious and extensive differences. Constitutional pluralism tends to create stability through the balance of tensions. However, it does not immunize a state from internal or external problems.
What is wrong, or has been wrong, with the United States that could translate into an interesting story line? Imperialism has been done, but could be done again. Abolition of slavery could be an interesting exploration. As I understand, it has been prohibited, but is not entirely gone in Keoland and indentured servitude it legal.
Civil war? As I see it, the US civil war was about aligning political with economic power, both of which necessarily involved slavery, because the constitution could not resolve the problem. One could say that the civil war was almost inevitable given the words: “three fifths of all other Persons.”
Although I think the red/blue state issue may be overstated, the idea of a similar multifaceted geographicially based and sometimes contradictory ideological split within Keoland has potential. Polarism could be explored for Keoland.
That is not to say that it should be the same issues that divide the US. What are the factions in Niole Dra talking about? What issues do they split over? Are their powerful forces creating the issues and driving the splits and alliances? Economic, ideological, internal, external? Is the Founding Charter in any way insufficient to address these issues. I do not think it has every actually been written, but I bet there are such problems.
Perhaps it is time to revisit the Neheli and Rhola compact on Royalty. Has it been 100 years since the last Rhola king? Is Gradsul the dominant economic force? More so than ever? Perhaps it should be the capital.
Keoland has already suffered a collapse. It is now in a rebuilding period.
(1) Celene can respond all it wants, compared to Keoland it doesn't have the power.
The Uleks are highly unlikely to object. The Principality would gain the support and raw manpower to deal with Turrosh Mak, the County would get the same along with a closer association with their Rhola relatives, and only the Duchy might be reticent because of Celene.
(2) Not with a massive redefinition. The Rhola and Neheli despise slavery, and have way too much invested in alliance with other humans and demi-humans. At most they believe in a racial right to rule, but as Scott Rennie put it, it is as "Keoish rule by Keoish Suel", not a bunch of red robed outsiders.
(3) The Hateful Wars started because Keoish garrisons were withdrawn from the Lortmils. Put them back, or add the full weight of Keoish power against Turrosh Mak, and he becomes less than a footnote in a few short years.
(4) That one is possible. In fact, that is one I had planned. So I can't really say no to it. Still, if it happenend, Keoland would come out even stronger afterwards.
(5) Slightly possible, but by the time such a one was ready Keoland would have reunited the Sheldomar and been ready for the onslaught.
(6) Heh. Based on a random musing from Harold Austin back in the early days of LG, I was contemplating making the Wyrd a long-possessed avatar of Vecna. Of course since Harold is now on the Triad, perhaps I better not say anything more.
(7) There is no sleeper there, just a portal that can be opened. If it were, it would be similar to a Vecna scenario, with Keoland coming back stronger when it was over. (Or the whole Flanaess being destroyed, one or the other.)
(8) Highly unlikely. Keoland is closer to leading into a stronger central monarchy than changing to a stronger population based electorate. Also remember that the Yeomanry never had a strong noble class like Keoland. Together they make such a shift highly unlikely.
(9) While such would teach the Yeomen a lesson, they would be blocked by the Little Hills before reaching the Javan River. At that point Keoland could mobilize, counter-attack, and pick up a "pre-processed" Yeomanry as a bonus.
(10) What is most likely to affect Keoland is a round of civil war after Kimbertos dies. But any King strong enough to win such will also be strong enough to finish the recovery and restructuring of the entire Sheldomar afterwards.
Well, as Sam points out, the last 100 years have been tumultuous at best for Keoland, and it has been shaken up. I personally like having one nation in the setting that isnt torn apart every five years.
IMO there has been enough world shattering strife in the last 15 years of GH history. THere are plenty of adventure possiblities without invoking the destruction of the world scenerio.
The possibility of another force coming in that can overwhelm Keoland seems to be a marginal idea at best, more suited to a home game than any official future. Self destruction seems unlikely to dissolve the nation, though civil war could be reasonable if Kimbertos dies at an inopportune time.
Overall though, I just dont see either the need or the reasonableness of such a future (an odd statement since WOTC has determined there is no future for GH ). THis is the one place of palaces and culture, history and intrigue in the Flaness. Though there are other bright spots, Keoland is the place where peasants actually plant crops and get to gather them without an orc showing up every other week, the place where ancient mysteries dwell around the corner.
::REIGNS IN GITHYANKI INCURSION HEADED FOR KEOLAND::
GH, and some of the LG triads of late seem to be stuck in the LBIU (Lets Blow It Up), mode of late. It seems everyone is too willing to throw the whole thing in the fire and then rewrite what doesnt fit with the ink made from the ashes of whatever part of the setting that they didnt like or have much use for.
Sometimes its the thing to do with an old campaign. Blow it up and then re-do the peices as you see fit. Rebuilding the campaign through actual game play rather than dictorial statements (i.e. Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes), is the best way to do this kind of campaign rebirth. Its probably one of the oldest DM tricks to enliven a sleepy campaign world by using a near apocalyptic event that shakes things up or burns down half the world that really wasnt used in the first place and remake the remains with adventures developing new paths and directions for the campaign to take as you game. It is a tried and true way putting that spark back into a world, but that kind of gaming experience is hard to do and doesnt do well in published form (i.e. Fate of Istus), as it takes a long time to do right and has to be open enough to allow for DM/Player input and actions as the game play develops. So we get told what happens. And I hate that. I want to game it out.
Lets face it, clearing away the needless clutter and making room for new NPC's, locations and adventure seeds all in one fell swoop is not such a bad thing to do once in awhile, but its becoming clear that this method campaign resusitation is becoming old hat for GH and IMO is not what Keoland needs. Keoland is a bit too well fleshed out to simply set on fire and douse it out just to see what made it through. If you really look at Keoland using the above example Keoland has already been through that, and is on its way to making a good campaign setting all on its own, full of opprotunities and a wealth of information for gaming. Realizing what those opprotunites are and how to utilize them is the challenge that most fail to meet when wanting to toss Keoland into the fire.
Not that Keoland couldnt stand a little brushfire event, but that would be more for a smaller scale situation rather than a 'burn it down' method. Considering the slapdash treatment that most of the Flanaess have gotten from TSR/WotC and what half the LG triads have been up too lately, its not surprising that many flinch when changes are presented. While this post might be seen as that sort of flinch, I'm all for change as long as those changes are done with the right attitude and approached with improving things than simply throwing it all on pyre out of boredom.
In that regard Keoland is going in the right direction as it is...Steady as she goes Capt. Samwise.
::STEERS GITHYANKI INCURSION TO ULL:: _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
Heh. It looks like the comments agree with a lot of what I've been developing.
Woesinger:
The last invasion of Keoland would be the Short War, depending on how much you consider Bissel to have been part of Keoland. That was just over 150 years ago. (Depending on what the current date you are using is - it was 778-780 CY.)
Before that yes, you'd have to back to the wars against the Hand and the Eye. (PLUG! PLUG! I've just finished The Yaheetes and Tyrus: The Wars against the Hand and the Eye in the Sheldomar Valley. Look for it coming to Canonfire as soon as it can be scheduled.)
As for your comments on a King Luschan showing up in a Hateful Wars II, that is identical to my assessment. Bear in Mind, Olinstaad Corond took over a hundred years, and the disaster of the Short War to finally give up on Keoland. It would be easy to convince him or his heir to go it again.
Wolfsire:
I've tried to tread lightly against too strong a comparison to US federalism with Keoland, but there are issues lurking as you suggest. Not slavery, but the fight between central and local authority. While that was, generally, the concept of the US Civil War, it was also the driving factor behind the British revolt against King John that led to the Magna Carta. Except for Keoland, given that a stronger monarchy would be an advance, it is closer to the less well known consolidation of France, particularly under Richilieu. Breaking the power of the provincial rulers and turning them into a Senate would open the door for significant social advances lower down the scale, and, with a lot of work, a change in the make up and power of the Lower Court. (Keoland actually has two Courts. The upper composed of the provincial rulers and certain others who get to vote for the King, and a lower that gets to "advise" them, and serve as a more open battleground for the factions, both in rhetoric and actual violence.)
As for the Rhola-Neheli compact, it was exactly 800 years from the election of Luschan I, the first King after Mandros, to the election of Kimbertos. From Nyhan V to Kimbertos it had been 76 years since a Rhola was on the throne, and another 27+ years for the reign of Kimbertos. (And perhaps it should be noted that at 27 years as of 591 CY, Kimbertos has passed the halfway point in length of reign for Keoish Kings.)
Keoland hasn't been invaded in 150 years and are in a rebuilding phase? While I'm sure Keoland's rich history provides much strife and all that, unless you are playing chronomancers that does players and DM's little good in a forward moving campaign. The civil war option does seem most likely to me, when compared to the rest of the Flanaess since Keoland's only serious enemy is themselves. The SB were on the verge but got scaled back to almost square one to soon and the giants stopped at Geoff and Sterich, tsk. To alot of people Keoland is exciting and fresh -because- it hasn't been significantly touched up till LG.
*Assimilates Gith into Uli culture. Bring it, Mahdi!*
Samwise: “I've tried to tread lightly against too strong a comparison to US federalism with Keoland …”
I think that is the only way it should be done. There are too many differences. But I like to keep it in mind. Not just within Keoland, but within the Sheldomar with Keoland being the closest thing to a federal government. The Lion Throne dominates within it borders, which is barely a federal system even with the charter. Yet, Keoland is far too closely involved with its satellites to consider them independent. In that sense, you see both extremes of states rights. Perhaps the collapse of the Soviet Union would offer insights, but IMO it does not capture the spirit of the West.
I like to see forces of good, not paladin type good, but what I see as real world good – such as self-determination and its related ideas like separation of church and state- that have manifested, not uniquely in the US- play a dynamic role in this part of GH. By “dynamic” I mean a long, but victorious, uphill battle. As Mortellan wrote: “Keoland's only serious enemy is themselves.” That is where the fun lies for me.
I could not see a war over slavery in Keoland, but I could see that as one issue in the larger tapestry, including but not limited using that as basis, even pretext, for further efforts into the Hold or part of the “polarization” that leads to civil war.
I would think any long term “imperialism” would be doomed to failure. By way of comparison, consider the relationship of the US to Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Cuba or any others. The Keoish spirit, as the American, could not keep it up. Territories could be conquered, there could be genocide, but in the end if the conquered are not made part of the good West– and thus not imperial colonies at all, where one nation rules another- the forces of good would overcome in the end.
This is a great discussion! Oh, and Morte.. your opinons regarding Ull or anyone related to them dominating other places are simply moot ! Your bias simply shows too much
Deth, I like your assesment of why people blow up campaigns. I think/hope there is a better way. In my home campaign (resuming after nearly a year hiatus) we play in Gran March (who guessed raise your hand and get a cookie) with visits to Keoland.
IMC, Keoland makes a great calm, sleepy place to visit. Its dangers are neither overt or easy. If you find them, they will kill you. If you want kick in the door and role initiative, go to Geoff.
But, as my characters near 20th level, they are turning their eyes towards Geoff. And they want to win. So, they have begun a new phase of the campaign, a political one. They are seeking reinforcements in Keoland, and among the Good Hills Union, to bolster their cause. The March is behind them, but it's resources are stretched thin.
So, in that light, Keoland is neither in need of change, nor a staid and sedentary place. And it is only in such a setting where you could exchange polite insults with a high ranking noble of the land and not expect immediate response. But it may still be deadly.
Mortellan:
Acutally #5 has already sort of been done with the Brazen Horde. While perhaps closer to the Mongol invasions, the follow up that liberated Ket after Tavish II conquered it was pretty much the early Arab conquests.
Wolfsire:
The problem with too close a comparison is that it too often leads discussions of the subject into annoying real world political fights. I prefer to avoid that completely.
And indeed, Keoland is way too close to many of those satellites, something people seem extremely reluctant to accept.
The issue of slavery in the Hold is major, and relates to other issues. (PLUG! PLUG! read about them in The Rhola and the Toli: The Battle for Jeklea Bay.)
Keoish Imperialism is very different from what most people imagine. The battles they fought against real barbarians led to conquests they could hold. Otherwise they went with diplomatic victories. The wars against civilized opponents didn't work. This is a critical element of Keoish history.
The last invasion of Keoland would be the Short War, depending on how much you consider Bissel to have been part of Keoland. That was just over 150 years ago. (Depending on what the current date you are using is - it was 778-780 CY.)
Yikes - the Keoish have a time machine!!!!! No wonder they're being so laid-back. Run for your lives!
I was referring more to Keoland proper (within it's current borders). The shock of an invader setting foot in the kingdom proper (as opposed to Greater Keoland, which has been overrun by everyone in the past 2 centuries ;)) would, I imagine, be huge. After all, why have buffer states if they don't buffer the heartlands against the Barbarians (perhaps the logic King Luschan might use to reassimilate the sattelites)?
Besides, everyone knows the Keoish showed up in Bissel to find "The Overking rules, OK" graffiti everywhere. :P
I looked at the wrong column of my Timeline.
I recently added a set of dates for "Keoish Years", and copied those. The Short War happened during the 778th-780th Courts.
That is 436-438 CY.
As for the Heartland of Keoland itself, between the Sheldomar and Javan Rivers, yes, prior to the SB moving into the Dreadwood, you'd have to go back to the wars against the Hand and the Eye for anyone invading Keoland.
However, Greater Keoland has not been overrun by "everyone". Ket trashed Bissel a few times (because those wussies in Furyondy let them), Furyondy trashed Bissel (because Berlikyn and his Knights of the Watch were losers), the Sea Prince overran Monmurg (because Tavish III was a twit), the Yeomanry, Uleks and Celene revolted (becuase elves and Yeomen are revolting), the Hateful Wars swept the Lortmils (because Celene kicked the Keoish garrisons out), and the twin threats of Turrosh Mak and the giants hit (because they are evil orcs and giants, and the elves of Celene are revolting). That's a bunch of internal conflicts, humanoid/giant trouble, and trouble with neighbors in the Fals Gap. That's about the same as the Great Kingdom in the same period, and Keoland hasn't collapsed totally.
While I'm sure Keoland's rich history provides much strife and all that, unless you are playing chronomancers that does players and DM's little good in a forward moving campaign.
Woesinger wrote:
I was referring more to Keoland proper (within it's current borders). The shock of an invader setting foot in the kingdom proper . . . would, I imagine, be huge.
This is at the heart of it, I think.
Keoland proper has been an island of calm. In other words, it has a certain dull lassitude. Its not where PCs adventure. That, I think, should be changed.
That doesn't necessarily mean any particular scenario has to occur or that Keoland has to be reduced to rubble. I think it does mean that the calm must be broken and the status quo disturbed in more than a "well, that's over now" kind of way. Adventure opportunities need to be heightened.
Of course, if there ever is a Next Hawk, you _know_ there will be some large event created in the Flanaess to drive the marketing, whether we like it or not. Keoland seems to be "due." Overdue, even. _________________ GVD
Keoland proper has been an island of calm. In other words, it has a certain dull lassitude. Its not where PCs adventure. That, I think, should be changed.
Again, Keoland has plenty going on if you use whats there, but it can use some lesser brushfire events like I pointed out earlier. It's always a good idea to keep things moving and unpredictable using the hooks already on the line rather than turning on Keoland in an attempt to 'enliven' it. Again making it a gaming opprotunity out of any of these actions is greatly preferred rather than just another standard release telling what happened. _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
::REIGNS IN GITHYANKI INCURSION HEADED FOR KEOLAND::
GH, and some of the LG triads of late seem to be stuck in the LBIU (Lets Blow It Up), mode of late. It seems everyone is too willing to throw the whole thing in the fire and then rewrite what doesnt fit with the ink made from the ashes of whatever part of the setting that they didnt like or have much use for.
Sometimes its the thing to do with an old campaign. Blow it up and then re-do the peices as you see fit. Rebuilding the campaign through actual game play rather than dictorial statements (i.e. Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes), is the best way to do this kind of campaign rebirth. Its probably one of the oldest DM tricks to enliven a sleepy campaign world by using a near apocalyptic event that shakes things up or burns down half the world that really wasnt used in the first place and remake the remains with adventures developing new paths and directions for the campaign to take as you game. It is a tried and true way putting that spark back into a world, but that kind of gaming experience is hard to do and doesnt do well in published form (i.e. Fate of Istus), as it takes a long time to do right and has to be open enough to allow for DM/Player input and actions as the game play develops. So we get told what happens. And I hate that. I want to game it out.
::STEERS GITHYANKI INCURSION TO ULL::
AMEN, BROTHER!!!! THOU HAST SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!!
Again, I don't think Keoland needs to be torn apart. It's suffered enough humiliating defeats in wartime for any country.
Instead, I think it might be nice to look at how the citizens of Keoland, the nobles of Keoland, and the peoples of the other Sheldomar nations view Skotti's handling of affairs.
In my own version of events, many common citizens of Keoland, to say nothing of the people of Sterich and Geoff, are livid with Skotti over the lack of timely aid against the giant invasions during the Wars. Keoland's flabby and soft armies, and its rich tradition of military incompetence, were of little help to the western territories, though they survived by the skin of their teeth. The western realms are threatening to secede from the Throne of the Lion, and don't appreciate what they see as Lashton's bullying and threats.
The nobles are peeved at Skotti, but for different reasons. A lot of them are angry at how Skotti has liberalized civil rights for women, demihumans, and indentured servants during his reign. Many commoners appreciate and embrace the new reforms, but a lot do not, and this has the potential to boil into a serious social conflict for Keoland. The nobles also don't like how he's trying to take a conciliatory measure with the western lands, getting in Lashton's way in doing so, and they're very angry with how he's handled the invasion of the Hold of the Sea Princes.
Then there's the matter of the Flan. As with many of the other Suel-Oeridian states, historically Keoland has treated its Flan citizens very badly, to put it mildly. I imagine a lot of them still wandering as before within the Keoish wilderness, not harassing Keoish citizens or anything like that, but willing to defend themselves if they feel they're being attacked. If some sort of greater movement were to take place among the Flan, how would Keoland react? How would the commoners, the nobles, other countries react?
Like others have said, Keoland doesn't necessarily need to be blown up, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems of its own. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
That's about the same as the Great Kingdom in the same period, and Keoland hasn't collapsed totally.
Hehe - as Taras/Montand used to say, the GK hasn't collapsed, it's just in another period of civil war.
TO GVD: Stable kingdoms can be dull - but that's where intrigues, plots and machinations come in. One of the strengths of the development of Keoland in the past 5 years or so (LGG onwards) has been the efforts made to make it distinct from the Aerdi/Oeridian realms. Keoland as it stands, has an almost Byzantine level of political complexity (as you'd expect from a kingdom that's been knocking about for nearly a millenium). If you like poltical intrigues in your reoleplaying, then Keoland is a good spot to start. And if you get tired of the plotting, there's plenty of doors to be kicked in those oft-invaded satellite states. ;P
Samwise: "PLUG! PLUG! read about them in The Rhola and the Toli: The Battle for Jeklea Bay."
Where can I find this, or is it on the way?
Samwise: "The battles they fought against real barbarians led to conquests they could hold. Otherwise they went with diplomatic victories. The wars against civilized opponents didn't work. This is a critical element of Keoish history."
Perhaps it is answered by the above article, but how do you see the Hold on that scale? I can see a mix of barbarism and civilization in the Hold that might lead to a successful conquest by Keoland.
Here is a hypothetical to trash:
1. Scarlet Brotherhood destroys national government in the Hold, unleashes uncivilized elements (barbarians, humanoids, undead, and other monsters) then loses control.
2. Keoland takes control of Jeklea because Hold is dealing the mess left by the SB.
3. Keoland, in alliance with Duchy of Berghof, Melkot, Yeomanry, and perhaps others (Olman?), liberates the interior, flanking the Hool Marsh and coastal strong points from the North and the South.
4. Threatened internally and externally, the Princes seek a treaty and agree to give up slavery and piracy.
As a first shot at trashing it, Keoland could easily get cut off in the North and South.
Every once in awhile these threads pop up (sigh)...I blame it on video games.
Rather then seeking to work within the framework of the gameworld they want the massive event to provide the bigger bang,
What is so wrong to RP within the society, not every nation has to have a revolution or invasion every two years, leave Keoland for the RPers out there the enjoy the espinage angle not the hack n slash style game.
I would like to maintain the internal consistenacy of the gameworld to maintain the "suspension of disbelief" that ties a good game together for RPers. Given the devastation of the GHW realistically the nations should be focused on rebuilding not to mention the mindset of the every day serf, I would throw my hoe in the lake, knowing another horde in always coming, there comes a point where these "big events" simply cease to shock and I just roll my eyes...not another save the kingdom.
Last edited by Crag on Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
All the articles I've mentioned are on the way. They are undergoing final reviews for style, but the content is set.
The area that became the Hold of the Sea Princes was conquered by Tavish the Great. Before that, the inhabitants, while technically "civilized" (that is to say, organized to the point of having a city), qualified more as barbarians. The rulers of Port Toli were Suel of the utter scum sort that had mostly been wiped out by that time. The wars against them were more like wars against humanoids than wars against other civilized nations. In many ways, following the conquest of the Hold by the Sea Prince, hey returned to that state, embracing chattel slavery on a massive scale. That situation has degenerated even further with the SB takeover. (And I should note, I don't consider the SB a "civilized" opponent either.)
As for your hypothetical:
1. That isn't hypothetical, that is what happened.
2. Barring outside events, this is one of the two most likely outcomes. The other is that the Toli return openly.
3. The Duchy of Berghof hasn't existed for centuries. Melkot is something I'd leave the creator to comment on, but I don't think they'd care, or have the power to affect the outcome. I would prefer that liberation of the Hold serve as the force that rejoins the Yeomanry with Keoland. An alliance with the Olman is highly unlikely due to lingering racism.
4. The Princes are actually multiple groups. I'll leave comments on them for the moment, as most of it will be obvious when the articles come out.
What is so wrong to RP within the society, not every nation has to have a revolution or invasion every two years, leave Keoland for the RPers out there the enjoy the espinage angle not the hack n slash style game.
What is wrong, to some of us, is that this focus on espionage and intricate history was not part of the original setting, and we went other ways with it. Now, in order to make use of some of the later material, but keep things in line with our campaigns, many of which are quite long running now, explanations may be needed for why "my keoland is different from the LGG keoland" or whatever. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
Sam: You mentioned that the Duchy of Berghof didn't exist for centuries. How do you reconcile that with the apparent age of Adlerweg and the Duchy as mentioned in Gauntlet and Seninel? I assume that the conflict between Berghof and the unnamed settlements on the shores of Jeklea Bay (which led to the construction of Adlerweg Keep in the first place) occured before what is now the Hold was subsumed into Greater Keoland (when did that happen anyway?)?
I kinda rationalised it that the Vale of Berghof would have been a fine refuge for Suel groups fleeing the fall of the Imperium and so got itself organised as a small state (Melkot style) pretty early on. It expanded onto the Jeklea coast, founding or absorbing settlments there. A schism in the ruling family triggered the civil war between Berghof proper and the Jeklea ports and in turn the construction of Adlerweg and the creation of the Gauntlet and the Sentinel.
As Keoland grew and the mountains became more dangerous, Berghof's power waned, until it was subsumed into Keoland (who's navy promptly burned the rebel Jeklea ports to the ground, ending that particular problem). Berghof's fortunes continued to decline in later years until it became the backwater it is today. I also had a thought that a large part of Kusnir might have slipped into Lake Spendlowe after an earthquake, which is why it looks so small, despite apparently having been the capital of a pretty extensive petty state.
Keoland took the Hold in 306 CY. It undoubtedly took Berghof along with the rest of it. That makes it "centuries", 285 years to be precise.
Berghof presents a problem mostly because of the blatant German of the names used for it - Beghof, Adlerweg, Kampf, and so on. Making it a Suel refuge doesn't fit, and having Oeridians manage to get there is a bit difficult. I sort of explain it by having some Oeridians move in while the rulers of Port Toli, the predominant power there before Keoland conquered it, were recovering from on the preliminary whuppings they got, and becoming local rivals, supported by Keoland on an irregular basis. Its a kludge, but the better alternative would be wholesale name changes, which just makes the canon-luddites freak becaise you are denying some precious bit of trivia that they've built a million words of campaign material around. (That's why Gary Holian keeps whining whenever I try renaming something.)
The Rhola and the Toli covers this conflict, without mentioning Berghof which is pretty irrelevant to the big story.
Would it be possible that they were initially Oerdian Merceneries, rewarded with a small fief who then got out of control. Voila, no name change, and something that is completely reasonable.
Keoland took the Hold in 306 CY. It undoubtedly took Berghof along with the rest of it. That makes it "centuries", 285 years to be precise.
::Squirrels nut of data away in GH trivia store::
Samwise wrote:
Berghof presents a problem mostly because of the blatant German of the names used for it - Beghof, Adlerweg, Kampf, and so on. Making it a Suel refuge doesn't fit, and having Oeridians manage to get there is a bit difficult. I sort of explain it by having some Oeridians move in while the rulers of Port Toli, the predominant power there before Keoland conquered it, were recovering from on the preliminary whuppings they got, and becoming local rivals, supported by Keoland on an irregular basis.
Well - Urnst has some pretty Germanic names (Duke Karll, please stand up), so I didn't have that much a problem with Der Suloisen Mikro-Reich von Berghof.
Anyway, Kusnir sounds pretty Suel to me.
Also I never associated German and Oeridian. I take the names Sargent invented in Marklands and Ivid as my baseline for Oeridian - lots of -enns, -asters, -wyrds and -drenns (with a generous sprinkling of X's here and there). Of course those Keogh were always a bit strange (not really Oerids at all, some in Aerdy might say...)
The other possibility is as Anced mentioned, the original Suel settlers picked up some Oerids on the way through, as mercs or partners or both. The mercs might have married into the ruling house and become assimilated. Or perhaps it was an Oerid/Suel split that caused the schism between Berghof and the Jeklea littoral?
As I said, most of the date info is in part 2 of the timeline, so wait until that gets posted.
The whole language issue is twitchy. German, or pseudo-German, typically gets associated with the Oeridians more than the Suel though.
Mercenaries is possible, although unlikely for the local Suel, the Toli. They had little need of mercenaries from the far north, having a massive slave base to use, Amedi Suel, or just other local Firstcomers who preferred being a semblance of privilege over direct enslavement.
Stable kingdoms can be dull - but that's where intrigues, plots and machinations come in. One of the strengths of the development of Keoland in the past 5 years or so (LGG onwards) has been the efforts made to make it distinct from the Aerdi/Oeridian realms. Keoland as it stands, has an almost Byzantine level of political complexity (as you'd expect from a kingdom that's been knocking about for nearly a millenium). If you like poltical intrigues in your reoleplaying, then Keoland is a good spot to start. And if you get tired of the plotting, there's plenty of doors to be kicked in those oft-invaded satellite states. ;P
I do not see this at all.
What I see is a kingdom whose political system is poorly explained in the extreme. It borders on being so poorly explained that one is inclined to say it just makes no sense - thus explaining why it can't be explained better. "Byzantine" doesn't mean "poorly explained" or "unexplainable."
Any "political" intrigues appear more theoretic than actual as all that alleged "plotting" doesn't seem to go anywhere.
I'm not saying destroy Keoland but it needs:
(1) An easily understandable structure that actually makes sense in that a society might be thought to actually govern itself effectively in such a way; and
(2) More dynamism or at least an intersting decadence and decline if there is no dynamism.
I'm not talking about Keoland's history but its present and future. I think there need to be possibilities, which likely means disruption of the status quo at some level.
Well as the guy who has written over 30,000 words to address all that, all I can say is:
Wait just a bit longer.
Part 1 of the Timeline had the founding, the initial surge of expansion, and the decadence. Part 2 will feature the imperial recovery, the post-imperial implosion, and the modern transition.
I've also finished six, and will be starting a seventh, essay to expand on various critical parts of the timeline, that will provide greater insight into the government, as well as a significant amount of historical "dynamism".
Well as the guy who has written over 30,000 words to address all that, all I can say is:
Wait just a bit longer.
Part 1 of the Timeline had the founding, the initial surge of expansion, and the decadence. Part 2 will feature the imperial recovery, the post-imperial implosion, and the modern transition.
I've also finished six, and will be starting a seventh, essay to expand on various critical parts of the timeline, that will provide greater insight into the government, as well as a significant amount of historical "dynamism".
I am looking forward to the second part of the timeline. I have an article idea I want to try that I want to sinc up with the timeline. _________________ GVD
All in favour of getting a posse together, wandering over to Sams' and hooking him up to a IV drip and shackling him to a PC until he gets the timeline finished, say Aye!
You mean bumrushing the netbot and having him post it now rather than waiting for me to finish another 300,000 words of background history and general development, then integrate all of that into the timeline, then split it into two separate documents, one containing only things mentioned directly and explicitly in published materials, the other containing various expansions and additions.
That is the real delay.
I even suggested a disclaimer along the lines of:
"This is a work in progress. While expanding and detailing 1000 years of history in a fantasy campaign setting, minor errors and really cool ideas keep coming up after you've finished something. As well, the history has to fit together, so every new thing written affects everything previously written. If you catch an error or a contradiction, you are right. I've probably already caught it myself and corrected it. Expect more to come until the whole thing is finished. Thank you."
But the netbot is afraid of that too.
So don't worry, I'm still working, and he will eventually have to put them up. (Or I'll just pdf them and have them slipped into the downloads section. )
I strongly disagree that Keoland, or any other region, needs to be "blown apart" to remove the dull humdrum. World-shattering events that shake the nations are fun and exciting once and for all but get tired real fast. They also lessen the impact of the adventurers. The group of PCs that have worked hard to eradicate the vicious slavers of Keoland, rescued two villages from orcs and defeated the plans of the nefarious necromancer of Gradsul suddenly find their homeland burned and barren from an unforeseen threat. Yippie!
Threats shouldn't just appear from out of the blue and shatter the current status, not in a time and place where the gods are watching and there are plenty of wizards and clerics of divinatory powers. There should also be a chance of the players defeating the threat before it rampages through their home. Otherwise it's just the DM, or worse WotC, deciding what war or catastrophe that wipes out all that has gone before. Does that seem like a good campaign?
Why not do it like this? Come up with a believable threat, find ways of working against the threat, construct adventures based on the threat. Start a campaign, say in Keoland, spread rumors of the threat you're interested in, perhaps an empire of sahuagin setting their sights on the shores of Keoland, the PCs can then spend their career bolstering the defence of Gradsul, fix allies among the mermen, tritons and aquatic elves, defeat the traitorous lizard man tribe near Gryrax, foray into the capitol of the sahuagin and finally perhaps tangle with the emperor himself and his lord, Belial. If the PCs fail there will be severe repercussions against Keoland's coastal areas.
Wouldn't that be better than simply announcing that a force of vicious sahuagins destroyed southern Keoland and the land is a mess? _________________ Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
Wouldn't that be better than simply announcing that a force of vicious sahuagins destroyed southern Keoland and the land is a mess?
The difficulty arises in the context, not of your or my campaign, but when a publisher looks to again visit the Flanaess. There must be something new to say about it.
FtA had much to say of Aerdi, Nyrond and Furyondy, but little to say of Keoland. The LGG cleaned up the worst excesses of FtA but did not substantially advance the setting.
Thinking like a publisher for a moment, if GH is to be again published and must be made "different" from previous incarnations (as I believe any publisher, not a rabid fan, would conclude) Keoland, comparatively untouched in previous editions, might well be the focus and made "different." The question then becomes "how" it might be made "different." "Different" does not mean it must necessarily be "blown up," but it does mean that change will likely come. So what might that change look like?
Civil war seems a popular answer, but is that the only option? The best option? Suppose you are the publisher and you want to make money, lots of it, so you can keep publishing Greyhawk material - what do you do?
Sit tight? Nearly so? Sorry. You are out of business. Next answer? _________________ GVD
Nope - don't sit tight. A Next Hawk publisher's first regional sourcebook should be Greater Keoland.
Detail the kingdom, it's history, power structures and tensions.
Detail its satellites. The giant troubles in Geoff, the curse on Istivin, the machinations of the Watchers in Gran March and Bissel, the state of play in the Yeomanry. The war against the Pomarj in the Uleks (with hints at a new Hateful War); the ongoing war and anarchy in the Hold.
And then animate the whole thing with a central plotline centered around the death of Skotti (was it accidental or an assassination?), and the machinations of the various Houses to get their man on the Throne of the Lion. Propose the possibility of a Civil War and outline the consequences for Keoland and it's neighbours of each faction getting their guy's hands on the crown.
No blowing up required.
Keoland might seem dull because it hasn't been detailed as much as the other great powers - but add the detail and it becomes very vivid indeed.
In fact I'd go so far as to say, in terms of variety - the Sheldomar is a setting as and of itself.
Actually my plan is to cheat and jump ahead to around 650 CY. (One to ten years before the Keoish millenium.) I'll resolve all the current issues, present a unified Sheldomar, and leave it open to a DM as to whether to go for a civil war, age of exploration colonial war in the Amedio and beyond, colonial era proxy wars with the Scarlet Brotherhood, Iron League, or others in Hepmonaland and the Amedio, full blown great powers wars in and beyond Bissel, or whatever they'd like.
But that is at least another 6 months of work.
Oh, and I agree. The Sheldomar is a setting all by itself.
I think the wheel allusion is apt for Keoland. And I dont think it needs a great deal of upheaval, so much as expansion upon what is going on. If the Sheldomar is a wheel, Keoland is the hub. On a wheel the hub is spinning the fastest, but appears to have the least motion. The spokes and rim of this wheel would be the Satilite states. While they are in a great deal of motion, it does not affect the whole.
With some detail the publisher could detail the ploting of court, or of a court, such as Dorglast Castle and the Nehli court. Even epic level characters might have to step lightly in a court of high level aristocrats and their retainers. The political intrigue would be the center of my work if I were to do Keoland, and the action would take place on the Borders: Pomarj, Geoff, Bissell, the Hold, the sealanes to the south.
I dont think the calender actually should be advanced, or at least not more that a few years. Give some detail to these places. I dont want all of the Flaness mapped, quantified and predetermined. But right now, none of it is. I think that Keoland would make an excellent location for a WOTC Regional Supplement. They could fill in a great deal, and still leave so much for the indavidual DM to do.
Some have claimed that that is eliminating the greyness. If I have a complaint with GH (and it is my favorite), it is that the velum is blank, not grey.
There are multiple ways to phrase this thought, so please forgive my choice of words if it seems unartful.
In some respects, Keoland is a "bully." It dominates the Sheldomar geographically, politically and militarily. It has no real rival. It cannot be easily threatened, except in a highly localized way. And every other state in the Sheldomar must account for Keoland. Indeed, it is possible to say of some plots in neighboring states, "Oh but Keoland would never allow that!" Keoland is the "bully" of the Sheldomar.
That Keoland is an ineffective at times bumbling or confused bully doesn't alter the basic calculus because if "Keoland is moved to action" or "gets its act togther" then its bullying nature is strongly asserted. A lax bully, then. It only plays the bully if anything is happening elsewhere in the Sheldomar that matters. Which, of course, hardly makes matters better.
IMO, this is the "challenge" of writing for the Sheldomar. How do you "challenge" Keoland? If you say you don't or can't, then the entire region becomes a one trick Keolandish pony. To date, I think this too well describes the Sheldomar. IMO, Keoland needs a challenge that cannot be easily swept aside by an assertion of "Keoland power." _________________ GVD
GVD, I am not sure what you mean by “challenge”. If you are suggesting that Keoland is boring because no other power can bring about its demise, I have to disagree. Lesser challenges to the realm can be interesting if they are different from the last.
I understand that real world issues that will put people off should be avoided and that too close a comparison will be misleading, but I have to go back to a comparison to the US, which too is geographically isolated and the local power and then some. How do you challenge the US?
Certainly there is the nuclear option, like the Rain of Colorless Fire. But both the US and Keoland have their own problems that make them challenges to themselves.
Civil war over succession has been discussed, but civil war could be based on other grounds.
In the US some people are concerned with the loss of sovereignty associated with the UN. I suppose Keoland would not exists if its empire effectively brought into the fold all of the Sheldomar, but then allowed a democratic political structure to take over, which then broke up the Keoland into several states. It is unlikely, but as I understand it, Texas still has that option. I could imagine some Oridian nobles and Flan tribes supporting such a move.
Immigration could change thinks substantially. It did for the Flan in the Sheldomar. What if a Bakluni migration, or associated culture, entered the Valley from the west instead of the north in the path of the Watch? What if it was gradual? What about the Olman from the South?
Although the US survived them, different ideologies have presented challenges including civil rights, the red scares, peace, love and rock and roll. What do we know about the ideology of the Keoish? Among other things, they distrust magic and religion. What if there were to develop a subculture, perhaps supported by certain nobles, satellite states, the Brotherhood of Harbingers, and other groups that was working to change that. There could be peasant revolts, university riots and who know what.
Although for Keoland it could not present a direct problem for the vast majority of its population given low technology communication, but terrorism or asymmetrical warfare could really make the leaders uncomfortable and consequently direct them into action that would be harmful to Keoland overall, in more than just a “a highly localized way”. Skotti is bogged down in Westkeep, and I would guess that there has or will be a decline in moral as many families, noble and peasants, lose their sons.
If I am right, imperial Keoland was concerned with contiguous expansion. The US did that, but then went further. It negotiated for Alaska and took many far flung islands. Keoland might try a different rout too. What if it took the homeland of the Scarlet Botherhood? It might get support for such a move from many quarters, even from the Sea Princes.
The problem with that GVD is thinking of the Sheldomar as Keoland and other states instead of thinking of the Sheldomar as Keoland and several highly distinctive regions. Change your perspective, and the "bully" concept is as relevant as saying the Ile de France "bullied" the rest of France because the King lived there. Or that Castille "bullied" the rest of Spain because the King came from there. Well, yeah. What do you expect? Every nation has a center of power. So naturally the threats to the Sheldomar are primarily going to come from outside the Sheldomar rather than just being internal political power plays.
And as it goes, I view that as a strength. You can design varying external threats, and still drop back for some internal political dirty tricks every now and again. But it doesn't need some mega-breakup or disaster or anything.
I have noticed that GH can also Generally be broken down into settled ordered agricultural societies and the mobile hunter societies.
The settled regional powers serve as civilizing "hubs" that weaken the as one travels:
Keoland
Furyondy
Nyrond
Great Kingdom
Sultan of Zeif
Scarlet Brotherhood
These regional societies all are settled complex societies GVD has described as "boring and need of change" at one time or another.
Granted these settled societies limit PC scope of action due to the orderly complex nature, highly developed structure, ettique and established behavior...one can't hack the innkeeper in Nicole Dra and expect to escape...Gameplay is restrained but more subtle and thoughtful.
The PC scope is widened considerably, lending itself to the kill first style, opponents are everywhere, their is less moral decisions, worrying about the social reprecussion. PC's can let loose, carnage and mayhem is much more acceptable as a course of action and violence an appropriate response.
I assume GVD this style of play appeals to you, me too sometimes.
Is that why you want to change the settled powers, to increase the GH areas open to your style of play?
This is NOT an attack, I simply want to know why you are such an advocate against any settled regional powers?
What is the root of your dislike, reincarnated mongol warrior, hatred of bureaucrats, tax audit?
Just curious?
Last edited by Crag on Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
The problem with that GVD is thinking of the Sheldomar as Keoland and other states instead of thinking of the Sheldomar as Keoland and several highly distinctive regions. . . . But it doesn't need some mega-breakup or disaster or anything.
I do not think the Sheldomar should be seen as so predominantly Keoland, reducing all of the other regional states to "also-ran" status. But I agree that Keoland does not need to be broken up. Other areas/states in the Sheldomar need more "equal time" or something coming close to it, that's all. "Challenge" Keoland.
Crag wrote:
I have noticed that GH can also Generally be broken down into settled ordered agricultural societies and the mobile hunter societies.
The settled regional powers serve as civilizing "hubs" that weaken the farther one travels:
Keoland
Furyondy
Nyrond
Great Kingdom
Sultan of Zeif
Scarlet Brotherhood
These regional societies all are settled complex societies the GVD has described as "boring and need of change" at one time or another.
. . . Gameplay is restrained but more subtle and thoughtful.
Is this what you object to GVD?
. . . I simply want to know why you are such an advocate against any settled regional powers?....(Reincarnated mongol warrior, hate courtiers, bureaucrats, tax audit).
Just curious?
Well. You have me all wrong.
I am all for complex, settled societies and the roleplaying opportunities therein. THAT is not the problem.
The problem is a stullifying resistence to change of any sort and the enshrinement of the status quo.
Many seem so knee-jerk resistant to any change that they imagine any change means disaster or destruction. No. Change means change and comes in all varieties. It is too easy a reply that change means inevitable destruction or disaster and such an easy resort suggests a hyper-sensitivity and resistance to ANY change. It is then by turns chauvanistic to imagine that all change must be inferior to the status quo.
It is difficult to discuss any possible change because the mere thought seems to be repellant to many, who will immediately cry that what is being considered amounts to a Chicken Little-like "The sky is falling." They immediately mischaracterize change as unwarranted disaster.
CHANGE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN DISASTER OR DESTRUCTION. CHANGE MEANS CHANGE.
Of course, if one's play style is totally resistant to or immune to change then change would in that narrow way mean destruction. Such a narrow view, however, is not definational.
Change in Greyhawk is inevitable if the setting is to be more than a stuffed museum piece to be only dusted and admired.
Don't like any suggested changes? What alternative changes then? None? A change that doesn't really change anything? Uh-huh. Nuff said.
Its not about not liking civilizations or "political intrigue roleplaying etc." Its about being accepting of change and seeing change as a _potential_ positive. And recognizing that change is not necessarily synonomous with disaster.
It seems, however, that the mere _possibility_ of change cannot be entertained without engendering a rabid reply or blythe dismissal. _________________ GVD
I liked FtA, ItU, several sites of the LG and LGG aspect, even support your Olman ideas for Sea Princes.
I am not adverse too change, just not well thought out change...
In this instance, I feel Keoland already has so many possiblities avaliable without another "big event". OTTOTH
Social upheaval over magic's role
Political machinations
Keoland tarnished foreign policy
Geoff and Sterich issues
Northern involvement of the KoW
Principality of Ulek / Pomarj
Position on Celene isolation
Sea Princes / Westkeep policy
SB infiltration of Keoland especially Suel Nobles
Naval race / trade competion developing
Seems like alot of adventuring opportunities to me
Events are needed to "shake up GH" but if they occur too frequently, I am fearful that GH will lose all credibility and the players begin to simply react to the next collapse, rebellion or natural diaster instead of feeling part of the gameworld.
I do not think the Sheldomar should be seen as so predominantly Keoland, reducing all of the other regional states to "also-ran" status. But I agree that Keoland does not need to be broken up. Other areas/states in the Sheldomar need more "equal time" or something coming close to it, that's all. "Challenge" Keoland.
There is no reduction. They aren't "also-ran", they are "never-ran".
Of them, only the Yeomanry, the Duchy of Ulek, and the Principality of Ulek ever developed anything approaching active, independent goverments of worth and relevance. Of those, the Yeomanry was first incorporated nearly 600 years ago before splitting off a mere 130/230 years ago. The Duchy of Ulek was more a poor cousin of Celene before becoming a recognized state within Keoland. That leaves the Principality of Ulek, which actually enjoyed the blatantly expansionist era.
Geoff is a near second to them, being a coalition of migrants and locals who got along, but without a major government to contest with Keoland.
Bissel was a plaything between east, west, and south.
Gran March was a savage land until claimed.
Sterich was unorganized until settled.
The Pomarj was occupied by dissolute Firstcomers with no organization above the equivalents of small Baronies.
The County of Ulek was an appanage of the Duchy of Gradsul.
The Hold of the Sea Princes was under the control of a particularly vile Firstcomer group who no one would miss.
None of them ever became anything that could be the kind of threat you'd like. If they had, they'd have been that threat centuries earlier.
The Sheldomar is Keoland, and Keoland is the Sheldomar.
The problem is a stullifying resistence to change of any sort and the enshrinement of the status quo.
What is wrong with enshrinement of the status quo? Are you speaking of it only within the framework of this setting (GH) or real life? Let me get on my soap box to address both...THUMP! OK
As a 40 year old and a parent, the status quo implies a safe environment to live one's life and raise children with. I know the score with life and if I like what life has given me, of course I do not want it to change. The same goes with products be it cars or RPG material. I might like new features to an existing product, but I still want the continuity that I am picking up something recognizable to the old days.
GVDammerung wrote:
Many seem so knee-jerk resistant to any change that they imagine any change means disaster or destruction. No. Change means change and comes in all varieties.
Yes, your latter statement is absolutely correct. Change itself is simply change. But the impact of change is what is evaluated as good or bad. I have no doubt that you like/love GH else you would not be here. The question I ask as a lover of GH is "What does this do to enhance or detract GH?" That is my definition of good or bad in this area.
GVDammerung wrote:
It is too easy a reply that change means inevitable destruction or disaster and such an easy resort suggests a hyper-sensitivity and resistance to ANY change. It is then by turns chauvanistic to imagine that all change must be inferior to the status quo.
It is difficult to discuss any possible change because the mere thought seems to be repellant to many, who will immediately cry that what is being considered amounts to a Chicken Little-like "The sky is falling." They immediately mischaracterize change as unwarranted disaster.
CHANGE DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN DISASTER OR DESTRUCTION. CHANGE MEANS CHANGE.
Of course, if one's play style is totally resistant to or immune to change then change would in that narrow way mean destruction. Such a narrow view, however, is not definational.
Change in Greyhawk is inevitable if the setting is to be more than a stuffed museum piece to be only dusted and admired.
Don't like any suggested changes? What alternative changes then? None? A change that doesn't really change anything? Uh-huh. Nuff said.
Its not about not liking civilizations or "political intrigue roleplaying etc." Its about being accepting of change and seeing change as a _potential_ positive. And recognizing that change is not necessarily synonomous with disaster.
It seems, however, that the mere _possibility_ of change cannot be entertained without engendering a rabid reply or blythe dismissal.
You don't have to like this quote (I think it was Churchill)
"If you are 20 years old and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you are 40 years old and are not a conservative, you have no brain."
I unfortunately am finding this more and more to be true. There comes a point when one's worldview solidifies. There is a lack of acceptance of new ideas because they conflict with ones worldview. It comes not from a superiority of intellect, but from experience. Thus status quo, unless the new idea is proven to be better. PROVE that the impact coming from change is better. Besides some museum peices are better than what is out there.
Personally, I like discussion on both sides with changing Keoland or not.I will post again on published examples (good and bad) of when you "blow up" the campaing. Its late, I am old and cranky and reject your dismissal of the status quo so I had to speak up. OTOH I personally like looking at my GH navel at times.
My experiences with change in RPGs come from Traveller and Vampire LARPs. I no longer LARP 3 nights a week. Status quo and all that.
I started playing Traveller the month it came out and D&D later so I am very much a "grognard". The campaign changed drastically for each new game.
Once when Emperor Strephron was killed, once with Virus. The back in the past, twice. Each new "campaign" had history and tech in common of course, but was held together by the "feel". People are still arguing the right or wrong feel about it over at travellerpg.com Yet each campaign was built on the other and each has its strengths. Are the Keoland changes logical (logic in a fantasy rpg? heh.heh..)
I also was a Storyteller for Chicago's Vampre LARP for its first few years before OWBN reared its head. Over and above the power gamer "king of the hill" nature of the game itself, there were always players who wanted to introduce elements that did nothing to enhance the campaign. Top two on the list were the Sabbat trying to blow up the Sears Tower every game session or people having wanting to play this month's Werewolf/Mage/Ghost/Fairie monster flavor with no rules or place for the character or background the city. Yeah, lots of fun, not. Are the Keoland changes logical (logic in a fantasy rpg? heh.heh..)
To take another example from another setting about what can happen if there's too much flash bang change in a setting, have a look at the history of Rokugan in the new edition of Legend of the 5 Rings.
Since the in game date of the first setting book, hardly a year has gone by without a war, corruption of a major figure, rise of a dark god, rebellion etc. Any flashy event that could have happened has happened - and all in the space of 30 years or so game time (after nearly 1000 years of relative peace). This is in main because of the storyline card tournaments that demand a new disaster du jour to give them a reason for being.
Though it's a beautiful setting, L5R's development is a mess and that's a great shame.
So - development by cataclysm - bad.
(As an aside - I thought the Civil War in Traveller was epic and though Virus was a seriously misconceived effort to reboot things, the New Era is not without it's good points - such as picking over the wreckage of a high tech civilization post Collapse).
On the other hand, stagnation is not only dull, but unrealisitic.
I actually think that most of the posters on this thread agree on both these points.
The point of disagreement seems to be over the details of the change. GVD seems to leaning towards the fiefs of Keoland spinning off into full independence (Lesser Keoland), whereas Samwise is a stanch proponent of Greater Keoland (excuse me if that's an overly simplified shorthand of the relative positions). But these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive - just look at Nyrond in the Marklands era, where two similar ideas were being mooted. I'm sure there's people in the provinces who are tired of overbearing Keoish paternalism. Equally there are those who believe things went wrong when Keoland's armies stopped conquering things. It's one of the essential and interesting tensions in the Sheldomar I think and the interplay of the two will certainly shape the development of the region.
. . . the status quo implies a safe environment to live one's life and raise children with. I know the score with life and if I like what life has given me, of course I do not want it to change. The same goes with products be it cars or RPG material. I might like new features to an existing product, but I still want the continuity that I am picking up something recognizable to the old days. . . .
There comes a point when one's worldview solidifies. There is a lack of acceptance of new ideas because they conflict with ones worldview.
I have no quarrel with the thought you are expressing here, even if I choose to not entirely adopt it, and I very much admire the candor with which it is stated. I think you have well articulated what underlies much of a desire to maintain a status quo.
Samwise wrote:
The Sheldomar is Keoland, and Keoland is the Sheldomar.
There can be no denial of the above on surface level. To say, however, that this mandates that Keoland have no rival, no legitimate or serious challengers to its position or security, would go too far, IMO. In fact, I think it has gone too far in "canon," for Keoland is a largely (artificially) undisturbed island in a sea often roiled. I think the aspects of Keoland people like can and should be maintained but not to the mummification of an unrivaled, unchallenged Keoland supremacy. It is this latter possible reading of the above quote that would give me pause.
Woesinger wrote:
The point of disagreement seems to be over the details of the change. GVD seems to leaning towards the fiefs of Keoland spinning off into full independence (Lesser Keoland), whereas Samwise is a stanch proponent of Greater Keoland (excuse me if that's an overly simplified shorthand of the relative positions). But these two ideas aren't mutually exclusive - just look at Nyrond in the Marklands era, where two similar ideas were being mooted. I'm sure there's people in the provinces who are tired of overbearing Keoish paternalism. Equally there are those who believe things went wrong when Keoland's armies stopped conquering things. It's one of the essential and interesting tensions in the Sheldomar I think and the interplay of the two will certainly shape the development of the region.
P.
While there are any number of possibilities, if I were pulling the trigger, I would look to give Keoland an external rival, who would take advantage of the weaknesses of Keoland's political system, as well as the "strength" of Keoland's often percieved "benevolence." I would gradually create Celene (and attendant allies) as a rival to Keoland.
I also like the idea of having Keoland expand to find a rival in the Mahdi of the Plains in Ket.
Perhaps the two are no mutually exclusive.
Crag wrote:
In this instance, I feel Keoland already has so many possiblities avaliable without another "big event". . . .Events are needed to "shake up GH" but if they occur too frequently, I am fearful that GH will lose all credibility and the players begin to simply react to the next collapse, rebellion or natural diaster instead of feeling part of the gameworld.
I share this latter thought, particularly if one contemplates a "revived" Greyhawk seeing print. In such event, however, Keoland seems ripe for some development/change because it has not previously been subject to such in any meaningful way, while most other areas have. This doesn't mean Keoland gets "blown up" but I think it could be challenged in a meaningful way, while preserving its essential character. I certainly would agree that some thought would need to go into determining what change is sufficient and what would be too much. _________________ GVD
There can be no denial of the above on surface level. To say, however, that this mandates that Keoland have no rival, no legitimate or serious challengers to its position or security, would go too far, IMO. In fact, I think it has gone too far in "canon," for Keoland is a largely (artificially) undisturbed island in a sea often roiled. I think the aspects of Keoland people like can and should be maintained but not to the mummification of an unrivaled, unchallenged Keoland supremacy. It is this latter possible reading of the above quote that would give me pause.
No rival?
Keoland has many rivals. But the only one it has within the Sheldomar is itself.
And as long as you look at the Sheldomar as a bunch of separate states graduall conquered by Keoland as opposed to the monlothic, slowly expanding, entity that it is, you are going to see rivals where none exist. To expect a sudden coalition of the Yeomanry and Gran March to suddenly threaten Keoland as a serious rival is to seriously confuse their relative strengths, the ability of Keoland to undermine any such a budding alliance politically, and the connections between the various provinces.
What I see as most likely is that the various Sheldomar satellite states will, over the next 20 years or so, begin to show more and more independance from the Lion Throne. They will come into their own, so to speak, and start developing distinct cultures. I think one could argue that there will be a close relationship onrunning, due to the cultural legacies involved, and that there could be distinct and far reaching concequences.
Maybe Keoland is assaulted dramatically from the sea somehow, and is hard pressed (I dont know where another attack could come from). Due to the actions of Skotti in the GH Wars, the satellites may be reticent in providing troops.
Take a modern example.. Keoland decides to cleanse the Pomarj, and finds itself overcommitted. And then they cannot get committments from Gran March, Sterich, Yeomanry, etc. This could be as detrimental to Keoland as an invasion... or worse. As I see it, any sort of Invasion would rally all the other states around. I think a Horde coming from the west would find the armies of the entire Sheldomar arrayed against them.
As to the Sheldomar being Keoland and Keoland being the Sheldomar, I would disgaree. I would say that prior to the Short War, this was true. Since that time, it has very slowly and gradually changing. Since the GH war, I think the change has been accelerating. I think the current situation only heightens the differences among the various states and Keoland.
A few things can be said with a fair amount of certainty on this point. The Uleks are not nearly as close as they were to Keoland prior to the Short War, though they are no longer pulled into the political orbit of Celene since they closed their borders. While Sterich and the Yeomanry owe a debt of gratitude to Keoland, there has to be an abiding anger in the population over the delay in providing troops.
Geoff can be safely placed outside Keoland's sphere of influence at the moment, though the Grand Duke might be seeking closer ties. I find it hard to believe that the population will ever forget or forgive the reticence Keoland has shown in coming to their aid.
Gran March is, I believe, a firm supporter of Keoland, but since the Short War, it has been slowly pulling away. THough I think there is still an visible appreciation for Keoland, Gran March is feeling it's rise as a influential player in the region.
Sterich, well they are glad that Keoland came to their aid. But, they also know that Kimbertos delayed, causing their fall. Yeomanry, well they have been going their own way since the beginning.
How exactly would Keoland find itself overcommittted in the Pomarj?
Keoland has a population of 1.8 million. The Pomarj has a population of 476 thousand. At most, the campaign might be a tad slower than expected. But overcommitted? And don't forget, Keoland wouldn't bother without the total support of the Prince of Ulek. So add another 538 thousand to Keoland's side. That picks the basic odds up from 4-1 to 5-1. And I'm rather certain the Duchy and County would be helping, as they are now. That's 370 and 390 thousand more, or just short of 7-1 odds.
So what, the campaign takes a whole year instead of a season or two?
The horror!
And no, the experience of the Hateful Wars should not indicate another campaign of 12 years. The Hateful Wars was the Uleks and Celene against the Humanoids of the Lortmils. Taking the current numbers as a reasonable base, at best they had a 2-1 superiority in numbers, attacking into restricted tunnels. And at the end of it, those humanoids were still strong enough to overrun the Pomarj.
The only way Keoland could become overextended in the Pomarj is if they wound up in an extended war with Greyhawk for the Wild Coast afterwards, and half the Flanaess backed Greyhawk. Otherwise the 800 lb. gorilla will sit its armies wherever it pleases.
As for Geoff and "resentment" over the giant invasions, how about Keoish resentment for the lack of support in the Short War and the evil of Vargalian during the Battle of Gorna?
If you start bringing in cultural complexes like that, they are going to work both ways.
Meanwhile Sterich with its population of 144 thousand lips off. Sure, they get away with it. Until Keoland rolls in and replaces everyone of the rank of Knight and above with Keoish second sons.
Ah, right, that "alliance" of the little people. Yes, I'm sure the 254 thousand of the Gran March and the 300 thousand of the Yeomanry will join together, and threaten Keoland, along with Sterich, the remnants of Geoff, and even the Uleks.
Just a few minor problems with that plan.
First, the strongest of the Uleks not only likes Keoland, but has all those orcs overruning half their country. So count the Principality out.
Second, the weakest of the Uleks is related to one of the Keoish royal houses, and is equally threatened by those orcs. So there goes the County.
The Gran March could easily threaten Dorlin. Well, easily if the Rushmoors weren't in the way, and they didn't have to start the campaign with a river crossing on a narrow front. So they'll be delayed a bit. And while they do that, Bissel kicks out the Knights of the Watch, and reclaims control of their government.
The Yeomanry can thrust right into the exposed underbelly of Nume Eor. Which gains them access to . . . the Dreadwood. Even the Scarlet Brotherhood didn't have the troops to fight all the way through the Dreadwood. Or they can cross the Javan further up, siege Cryllor, and then cross the Good Hills. OK, they'll be ready to join up with the Gran March in a few years.
Geoff takes time off from being eaten by giants to riot in their refugee camps until cut off food shipments starves them into submission.
And Sterich manages to stop fighting over succession rights long enough to be overrun as fast as Keoish troops can march from the Javan to the Crystalmists.
Said army then turns south, and trashes the remnants of the Yeomanry army that didn't die in the Dreadwood or the Good Hills, and sends a force into the Yeomanry to announce the new feudal order.
It then turns north tofinish off the Gran March army that just got back from making Bissel obey, only to find the entire Keoish army waiting for them. Bissel comes along as a bonus because the Gran March was nice enough to conquer it for Keoland.
So a great plan.
Or it would be if there were a power of the size of Keoland to back it, and the putative allies were on one side and could join the armies before the fight, if they didn't have to cross rather significant natural barriers to begin the war, if they didn't have their own problems to deal with, and if Keoland wasn't able to deal with them on an individual basis, which is possible because of all of those elements.
So the revolution will not be televised, because the revolution will not occur. Although such would really do a great job of rebuilding Tavish's empire, as it will make conquest easy for Keoland.
Geoff is going to wind up being influenced by Keoland because the alternative is becoming a fief of the Gran March. Sucking up to a King is acceptable to a Grand Duke. Sucking up to a two bit Commandant elected from a number of Barons is not.
Sterich is going to wind up being influenced by Keoland because there is so much chaos it is the only way for the Margravine to control the petty nobility.
The Yeomanry can keep sneering until Keoland closes the Javan River to them. Then they can watch their economy collapse as they can't get any foreign gold for their mercenaries.
The Prince of Ulek again accepts the Pomarj as a fief from Keoland in exchange for conquering it with Keoland.
The Count of Ulek hangs out with his kinsmen more.
The Duke of Ulek does that "aloof" thing that elves like, but still winds up closer and closer to Keoland because Celene does it even better and they need someone to talk to.
The Hold of the Sea Princes gets liberated on a spare weekend.
That leaves the Gran March in need of a final resolution. Disendowing the Knights of the Watch cuts off their ability to recruit from around 80% of their former base. A few years of that, and a few "alterations" in the government due to the early retirement of key nobles (i.e. assassination), and the Gran March is again toeing the line.
Bissel gets picked up by shipping all the Knights of the Watch to border forts to die during raids from Ket while the Margrave receives funds to take control of his country and rebuild his court for himself.
Sadly I don't see a credible threat emerging within the Sheldomar to Keoland for all the geographical and historic reasons Samwise states in his post above.
Unlike in the east where smaller border states can play their large neighbours (GK and Nyrond) off one another, so invasion is seen as to costly (Ivid V madness ended that gambit). Keoland simply doesn't have a competitor that the smaller states can shelter under, short of Furyondy and a united Baklunish West. The Furyondy option is void because of the concerns to the North (Iuz) and due to cultural hostility, no sheldomar state is going to welcome Baklunish allies. So the smaller sheldomar states have to "Finlandize" their actions to Keoland's policy while trying to politically maintain as much independence as possible. Granted locally Keoland is vulnerable, Sea Princes challenged Keoland at sea and stopped some poorly planned attacks and losses to guerilla style combat in the western duchies but as samwise said if the "800 LBS" Gorilla ever truly mobilizes (like GK did) their is no viable military response, many "border states" would no doubt quickly remember their cultural and historic goodwill.
Their is a chance of internal collapse but even that is doubtful with Keoland's history of political bargaining, compromise and allowing border states freedom of action providing atleast a basis for goodwill, it could be worse. Keoland presents the value of "soft power" a large nation can wield, Keoland doesn't have to march armies to borders to be heard, everyone in the sheldomar knows when the Lion throne suggests, a smart state takes note and Keoland is smart enough not to push it too far, Keoland may be a bully but it is a relatively benign one compared to the other bullies of GH.
I've enjoyed reading this thread and am pleased to learn that Samwise is posting his prodigious details about Keoland.
I want to remind folks of other versions of Keoland. Terry Harrison once posted five or six amazingly detailed posts that focused on Keoland's court intrigues.
Long ago, QSamantha posted her Court of Love and in general described a different spin on the kingdom.
Also, iirc, Chris "Kyuss" Jarvis produced a highly magickal version of Keoland that focused on its malign history of Suel Mages of Power.
Responding personally to the discussion, I don't think I've ever run adventures within the Kingdom of Keoland--in part because of its previously sparse detail and also because I tend to set adventures away from the heartlands and instead in the peripheries, e.g., the Wild Coast, the Lortmil Mountains and Kron Hills, the frontiers of Furyondy.
If I did DM PCs within Keoland, I'd likely adopt some of the aforementioned foci on courtly intrigue and kingdom-spanning politics.
Sam, I think you misread most of my post. I did not intend to suggest that Keoland would be invaded by GM, Yeomanry, or any satilite state.
What I was suggesting is that the satellites may begin to resist the influence of Keoland, and may not provide the support that they have in the past. This does not make Keoland, weak, but it would make it weaker.
How could Keoland possibly get bogged down in Pomarj? Well, if the current day example of Iraq is not enough, there are numerous examples in history books. Vietnam comes to mind. They generally involve a larger country pushing its weight around and projecting force outside of it's borders, despite the protests of allies, or with lukewarm support from said allies. Throw in a contentious environment at home (which is currently not the case in Keoland, but there are always possiblities); the death of a monarch, a plague at home, any of numerous possibliites, and the situation could turn dramatically.
I want to caveat at this point, that I do not see a credible threat to Keoland anywhere on the horizon. That is the reason I suggested a mysterious, heretofore unknown enemy from the sea as an example. Personally, I see Keoland demise, should such an unlikely event occur, coming from internal strife, not external conquest. All of it's satellite states seem to understand that Keoland is the nation that has their back.
That said, if the Keoish throne fails to defend it's satellites against outside enemies, it's support from GM, Yeomanry, the Uleks, Sterich, the Sea Princes, Bissell will falter. It would take a great deal drive these satillites to opposing Keoland, something beyond poor relations. But it is not impossible.
The Short War was a war of agression. The defense of Geoff and Sterich were not. Some people dont see a difference between the two. I think the general populace does. The Short War was so unpopular, it cost Keoland the dependance of Gran March, and the Uleks, as well as Bissel. Yes, such complexities cut both ways, but I think this one cuts against Keoland.
Keoland is the single most powerful nation in the Flaness, one without peer or viable enemy. It is well governed and surrounded by friendly nations. Its biggest threat is, in the coming century, itself. Such a situation is perfect for great roleplaying and enjoyable gaming.. at least for a certain style of play.
What I was suggesting is that the satellites may begin to resist the influence of Keoland, and may not provide the support that they have in the past. This does not make Keoland, weak, but it would make it weaker.
How?
If Keoland is not projecting power, how does the loss of support needed to project power make it weaker?
If Keoland is doing nothing nothing, then having less support for that won't be particularly relevant.
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How could Keoland possibly get bogged down in Pomarj? Well, if the current day example of Iraq is not enough, there are numerous examples in history books. Vietnam comes to mind. They generally involve a larger country pushing its weight around and projecting force outside of it's borders, despite the protests of allies, or with lukewarm support from said allies. Throw in a contentious environment at home (which is currently not the case in Keoland, but there are always possiblities); the death of a monarch, a plague at home, any of numerous possibliites, and the situation could turn dramatically.
Once again, that assumes such lack of support.
Obviously the Principality of Ulek isn't going to object. For a campaign in the Pomarj, that is the only ally that will matter.
Since the others are, according to some, not supporting Keoland anyway, how can less support become relevant?
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That said, if the Keoish throne fails to defend it's satellites against outside enemies, it's support from GM, Yeomanry, the Uleks, Sterich, the Sea Princes, Bissell will falter. It would take a great deal drive these satillites to opposing Keoland, something beyond poor relations. But it is not impossible.
Sorry, what satellites?
If people go on and on, making a big deal about these surrounding states not being satellites, then it can hardly be relevant if Keoland doesn't support them. These people don't want to be member states or allies. If they fall, that is their problem. And that becomes to Keoland benefit as it lets them move in to pick up the pieces and award new lands to homegrown nobles.
Let that happen a few times and see if people don't start changing their tune. Or let Keoland free them and see if they have a new appreciation for supporting the patron who will pull their chestnuts out of the fire.
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The Short War was a war of agression. The defense of Geoff and Sterich were not. Some people dont see a difference between the two. I think the general populace does. The Short War was so unpopular, it cost Keoland the dependance of Gran March, and the Uleks, as well as Bissel. Yes, such complexities cut both ways, but I think this one cuts against Keoland.
Sure there was a difference. Of course I keep talking about internal Sheldomar wars, not external wars.
The Short War also represented the end result of 49 years of errors by Tavish II, and another 25 years of errors by Tavish III. Ignoring that would be a serious mistake, just like ignoring that the internal problems at the time were so great that Keoland was in the middle of a civil war, and that is why they lost the Short War.
Yes, there is a lesson. "Don't expect a foreign war to prevent a civil war." I rather think that lesson has been learned and won't be repeated.
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). THis is the one place of palaces and culture, history and intrigue in the Flaness. Though there are other bright spots, Keoland is the place where peasants actually plant crops and get to gather them without an orc showing up every other week, the place where ancient mysteries dwell around the corner.
