What do we know of the locations of the eight orc tribes originally enumerated in the Monster Manual? (For reference, these are the Vile Rune, Bloody Head, Death Moon, Broken Bone, Evil Eye, Leprous Hand, Rotting Eye, and Dripping Blade tribes.) I know that the Vile Rune and Death Moon orcs were active in Bone March, and the Rotting Eye tribe was based in the Yatils. What other canon references exist (discounting Carl Sargent's erroneous usage of "Euroz" as a tribe name )?
I do not know about canon references but “On the Orcs of the Flanaess: History, Culture and Nation”, by CruelSummerLord, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=603
appear to discuss some tribes. I did not see any citations, but maybe CSL did the research.
I do not know about canon references but “On the Orcs of the Flanaess: History, Culture and Nation”, by CruelSummerLord, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=603
appear to discuss some tribes. I did not see any citations, but maybe CSL did the research.
Thanks for the plug, Wolfsire! And I have to admit, I didn't do any real research when making up most of the details on the orc tribes, except a few details:
-The Death Moon tribe was mentioned in Moore's "The Adventure Begins" as being from Bone March, so I put that in. I also made the main patron deities of each tribe comparable to their tribal name (Ilneval for Dripping Blade, Shargaas for Death Moon, etc.) since I believe that was mentioned in the old 2E book "Monster Mythology" by Carl Sargent.
I have no problem incorporating canon when I think it's good, but if it doesn't fit, I just throw it out and make something up. I'm happy to carefully weave in canon to make my articles more accessible, but I really don't want to have to buy and sift through every bit of contradictory (and sometimes very crappy) canon to slavishly copy it.
A lot of my stuff is made up, extrapolated from canon (hobgoblins name their tribes after how they torture their victims, ogres name their tribes after the way they splatter, crush and whack their prey, etc.), and I think that fits the GH spirit better. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I do not know about canon references but “On the Orcs of the Flanaess: History, Culture and Nation”, by CruelSummerLord, at http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=603
appear to discuss some tribes. I did not see any citations, but maybe CSL did the research.
Thanks for the plug, Wolfsire! And I have to admit, I didn't do any real research when making up most of the details on the orc tribes, except a few details:
-The Death Moon tribe was mentioned in Moore's "The Adventure Begins" as being from Bone March, so I put that in. I also made the main patron deities of each tribe comparable to their tribal name (Ilneval for Dripping Blade, Shargaas for Death Moon, etc.) since I believe that was mentioned in the old 2E book "Monster Mythology" by Carl Sargent.
I have no problem incorporating canon when I think it's good, but if it doesn't fit, I just throw it out and make something up. I'm happy to carefully weave in canon to make my articles more accessible, but I really don't want to have to buy and sift through every bit of contradictory (and sometimes very crappy) canon to slavishly copy it.
A lot of my stuff is made up, extrapolated from canon (hobgoblins name their tribes after how they torture their victims, ogres name their tribes after the way they splatter, crush and whack their prey, etc.), and I think that fits the GH spirit better.
Thanks to both of you for the info! For what it's worth, I've assigned the Rotting Eye tribe (who I believe Gary placed in the Yatils) to the worship of Incabulos (the "eye of possession" symbol). I figured that, given Incabulos' diseased, deformed appearance, the Rotting Eye would be appropriate. Also, I've placed at least some Evil Eye orcs in the Great Kingdom, to tie in the excellent DRAGON® adventure, "Citadel by the Sea." Do you have any thoughts on which tribe would be prominent in the Pomarj?
Dragon #167, p.10
See the Pomarj -- and Die!, by Joseph Bloch
An expansion to the Pomarj region, in extensive detail (includes a description of the quasi-deity Krovis)
It has been too long that I have, so I will have to this weekend.
BTY, I loved that adventure too. I do not recall who did it, but I seem to recall that someone set that adventure in the Pomarj, but I could not find a reference to it in a search of the forums.
Dragon #167, p.10
See the Pomarj -- and Die!, by Joseph Bloch
An expansion to the Pomarj region, in extensive detail (includes a description of the quasi-deity Krovis)
Eh. I like the history, but not the author's description of the humanoid-controlled Pomarj. It seems as if he just made up as many nasty-sounding tribal names as he could think of, and dumped them all in. I prefer the 1 tribe, 1 deity approach that Roger Moore took. Also, I think he was totally off-base with Krovis. I highly suspect that the original reference to "something" which might awaken beneath the Drachensgrabs was a hint about the Earth Dragon under Suderham.
Well for the "one tribe" approach you might want to refer to the '83 boxed set's coat of arms for the orcs of the Pomarj, the white skull on the black field. Maybe that is the Death Moon.
I always figured that with the fractured nature and constant infighting of the orcs, that numerous tribes would exist, even within a region. Thus, I held that there were at least half a dozen large tribes in the Pomarj alone, each broken down into sub-tribes and clans. As to the handful of named tribes, I took those as just a few examples or particularly notorious tribes. To each their own though...
Slavers lists 7 orc tribes in the Pomarj- Cracked Skull, Crooked Claw, Flaming Skull, Jagged Blade, Red Fang, Saltburner, Shadowmoon.
Many other humanoid tribes of the Pomarj are also listed, including tribes for gnolls(6 tribes), hobgoblins(6 tribes), kobolds(4 tribes), flinds(1 tribe), and goblins(4 tribes). Each humanoid race also has upwards of 20-80 minor tribes as well. Orcs have an additional 50 minor tribes.
Slavers also makes a point of referencing "See the Pomarj- and Die!" from Dragon #167 as its main source of information.
Hopefully you have access to one of the two. If so, then all is well. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Slavers lists 7 orc tribes in the Pomarj- Cracked Skull, Crooked Claw, Flaming Skull, Jagged Blade, Red Fang, Saltburner, Shadowmoon.
Many other humanoid tribes of the Pomarj are also listed, including tribes for gnolls(6 tribes), hobgoblins(6 tribes), kobolds(4 tribes), flinds(1 tribe), and goblins(4 tribes). Each humanoid race also has upwards of 20-80 minor tribes as well. Orcs have an additional 50 minor tribes.
Slavers also makes a point of referencing "See the Pomarj- and Die!" from Dragon #167 as its main source of information.
Hopefully you have access to one of the two. If so, then all is well.
Yeah, this material seems to come straight from "See the Pomarj — and Die!". I much prefer the concept of one tribe to each deity, using the eight primary tribes listed in the Monster Manual. While I'm sure that there are other minor tribes besides these eight, I see no need to have seven different tribes in the Pomarj alone.
Again, drawing from canon, the orcs of Bone March are from the Vile Rune and Death Moon tribes. The orcs of the Yatils are from the Rotting Eye tribe. I believe Gary stated somewhere that the orcs in Castle Greyhawk were from the Bloody Head tribe. (I'm not positive on that last one.) Following these models, I think each geographic region can (and should) be limited to one or two tribes. MM specifically states that two groups of orcs encountered in close proximity are most likely of the same tribe. I think CruelSummerLord's article (linked above) had the right idea, and I will likely incorporate much of it into my campaign. (Thanks! )
If you like the regional tribe designations, you might think of the main orc tribes as being similar to Native Americans. For example, the Iroquois are located in the north-eastern United States, but are made up of five groups: the Mohawk, the Oneida, the Onondaga, the Cayuga, and the Seneca. They are separate groups(each of them being made up of multiple animal clans, some intermingled amongthe groups), but they are all Iroquois.
The only problem I see with tribes dedicated to certain gods as being localized to certian regions is that orcs in certain areas do not vernerate certain orcish gods. For example, Gruumsh is not venreated in the Bone March. That just sounds odd. It would be much better for the tribal names associated with a certain deity to represent a preference rather than an absolute, or be the clans that are most dedicated to that particular deity. For example, most of the orcish clergy of the Leprous Hand tribe follow Yurtrus, but other minor clans in the area(usually under different names) might worship other orcish deities. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The only problem I see with tribes dedicated to certain gods as being localized to certian regions is that orcs in certain areas do not vernerate certain orcish gods. For example, Gruumsh is not venreated in the Bone March. That just sounds odd. It would be much better for the tribal names associated with a certain deity to represent a preference rather than an absolute, or be the clans that are most dedicated to that particular deity. For example, most of the orcish clergy of the Leprous Hand tribe follow Yurtrus, but other minor clans in the area(usually under different names) might worship other orcish deities.
I don't think it's that they don't venerate Gruumsh, so much as that they hold Luthic or Shargaas as their patrons. That's kind of like saying that the elves of the Spindrift Isles don't worship Corellon Larethian. Of course they do; they simply devote themselves primarily to Sehanine.
The notion that only eight major tribes of euroz exist across the Flanaess doesn't work for me.
To keep Gygax's original assertion, one might simply attend closely to it and hold that these tribes' names were culled from the several regions of the Flanaess--being the most infamous.
Another way is to change Gygax's allegation that these were named "tribes" and instead to hold that they are the warrior lodges dedicated to the great gods of the euroz.
IMC, the clans and tribes of Oerthly euroz are multitudinous. Significantly less in number are what I call "nations." These include the meta-tribes that Sargent mis-named in Iuz the Evil and may include the other "tribes" whose connections to certain areas have been specified--whether by Gygax, Moore, or the LGG authors.
Far rarer than the nations are the several euroz kingdoms that have existed on the Flanaess. Garen Enkdal is one of these. What Turrosh Mak once declared his Empire of the Pomarj is another. Others may exist in the Crystalmist and Yatil Mountains and perhaps in the Bone March.
The notion that only eight major tribes of euroz exist across the Flanaess doesn't work for me.
To keep Gygax's original assertion, one might simply attend closely to it and hold that these tribes' names were culled from the several regions of the Flanaess--being the most infamous.
Another way is to change Gygax's allegation that these were named "tribes" and instead to hold that they are the warrior lodges dedicated to the great gods of the euroz.
IMC, the clans and tribes of Oerthly euroz are multitudinous. Significantly less in number are what I call "nations." These include the meta-tribes that Sargent mis-named in Iuz the Evil and may include the other "tribes" whose connections to certain areas have been specified--whether by Gygax, Moore, or the LGG authors.
Far rarer than the nations are the several euroz kingdoms that have existed on the Flanaess. Garen Enkdal is one of these. What Turrosh Mak once declared his Empire of the Pomarj is another. Others may exist in the Crystalmist and Yatil Mountains and perhaps in the Bone March.
I never meant to imply at any point that there were only eight major tribes of orcs. Whenever I mention a listing of famous tribes, that's all I'm noting: famous tribes. Those are the tribes whose exploits are known across the Flanaess, and are renowned among more than just the dwarves who fight them locally, or those few human sages who specialize in orcs.
Just as it is safe to say that there will always be about fifty or sixty more monster lairs in any given geographical area than previously estimated, it can also be safely assumed that at least another dozen tribes exist in any forest, mountain range, or what have you...and that doesn't include the orcs affiliated with Iuz, the Scarlet Brotherhood, or whatever other villains dwell in that area.
There are likely well over a hundred petty tribes in the Lortmils, for example. To state that the entire mountain range was entirely cleared of humanoids is utterly ridiculous. It's just that the power of the humanoids was broken, and most of them were forced out of the mountains. But humanoids would still be there...and probably always will be there. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
I agree that the Hateful Wars failed to eradicate completely the humanoids of the Lortmil Mountains. IMC, in the 90 or so years since the war's end (four or five humanoid generations), the survivors began to flourish although many perished in the first generation.
While these relatively small tribes didn't become a military threat, they did pose threats of banditry to wayfarers and outlying farmsteads and thorps. However, when Turrosh Mak led his armies against the Principality and County of Ulek and upon the Jewel River, these previously-peripheral tribes provided significant assistance and did much to remove the defenders superior knowledge of the terrain.
By CY 595, it's likely that the humanoids have begun to walk again the legendary (for them) Low Road that dwur and noniz once scoured clean of them.
Eradicate completely is a pretty difficult task to accomplish in a non-island area that can't be warded by spells, or have a fully exlusionary wall built around it.
That being said, when you consider that the Euroz and Jebli of the Lortmils went from threatening the surrounding nations with annihiliation to dying on the high peaks then dying in the Suss Forest before defeating the disorganized Humans of the Pomarj, combined with the general population a mountainous area can support, then it becomes a pretty good working term.
The remnant bands would be so small, and so harried, they would be unlikely to be able to flourish again without either a significant outside infusion of new population, or a serious collapse of the demi-human nations surrounding them. They just don't have the population base to rebuild from, or the resources to support such a rebuilding.
And that's why Turrosh Mak is such a threat. With his forces reaching the entrances to the Low Road, the Euroz and Jebli can try to re-establish themselves beneath the Lortmils, moving whole villages worth of humanoids to their old cave complexes unoccupied since the Hateful Wars.
I highly suspect that the original reference to "something" which might awaken beneath the Drachensgrabs was a hint about the Earth Dragon under Suderham.
The something which might awaken beneath the Drachensgrabs was a reference to Rob K's Lair of the Pit Fiend adventure.
Scott
The remnant bands would be so small, and so harried, they would be unlikely to be able to flourish again without either a significant outside infusion of new population, or a serious collapse of the demi-human nations surrounding them. They just don't have the population base to rebuild from, or the resources to support such a rebuilding.
And that's why Turrosh Mak is such a threat. With his forces reaching the entrances to the Low Road, the Euroz and Jebli can try to re-establish themselves beneath the Lortmils, moving whole villages worth of humanoids to their old cave complexes unoccupied since the Hateful Wars.
The Pomarj may not be the only place the humanoids fled and remultiplied. There is Blackthorn in the Gnarley which is very deep and looms as trouble for Greyhawk, then if you go with Greyhawk Ruins, there is another deep humanoid presence led by a group of Ogre Magi. One or both enclaves are geographically close enough to be remnant Lortmil bands as well that are tunneling/lurking in wait to reclaim lost territory.[/i]
Mortellan is clearly correct that the Gnarley Forest, Welkwood, and Suss Forest came to house some of the descendents of the humanoid survivors of the Hateful Wars. While these forests likely had native humanoids previously, undoubtedly, over the decades, some of the Lortmil humanoids contacted, conquered, were enslaved by, etc. the woodland humanoid tribes.
Mortellan, please specify where in the Flanaess Greyhawk Ruins holds there to be "another deep humanoid presence led by a group of Ogre Magi."
ScottG I briefly looked for Lair of the Pit Fiend at the Acaeum but couldn't find it. Was this a published module? If not, will you please describe it briefly?
That entry about the Drachensgrabs has inspired a host of people to imagine its hidden threat--the Earth Dragon, Krovis, and the Twisted Forest!
The Pomarj may not be the only place the humanoids fled and remultiplied. There is Blackthorn in the Gnarley which is very deep and looms as trouble for Greyhawk, then if you go with Greyhawk Ruins, there is another deep humanoid presence led by a group of Ogre Magi. One or both enclaves are geographically close enough to be remnant Lortmil bands as well that are tunneling/lurking in wait to reclaim lost territory.
That's possible, but I would tend to believe they are a different groups. If you check Greyhawk Ruins you will note they are connected to a third group based in the Mistmarsh. No mention is made of the Pomarj.
Likewise, the Suss Forest is a relatively short hop, while the Gnarley is much further away, and through rougher terrain.
So I'd say they are different base groups, with Blackthorn sitting on the border between them. That they both wind up threatening the same area is just bad luck for Greyhawk and Celene.
Lair of the Pit Fiend, 1976. Unpublished. Dungeon adventure set in the Drachensgrab Mountains. Four complete maps, extensive notes, pregenerated PCs. N.B. This scenario directly relates to the Greyhawk Gazetteer's allusion that something will arise in anger if its resting place beneath the hills (mountains) is disturbed. This was a literary placement by EGG as he was naturally aware of the module's future setting
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