Canonfire!

Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:58 pm Gods walk the Oerth!

We had a good discussion last Thursday on deities/avatars/whatnot walking the Oerth, the nonintervention pact and soforth. I stumbled on something the next day.

The 83 Guide says:
In general, the greater gods are too far removed from the world to have much to do with humanity...

These deities have been known to intercede directly in the affairs of men, but only if these affairs have a direct and crucial bearing upon the concerns of the deity. Even so, the annals of the historians list only a few such instances in the history of the Flanaess.

Deities have weighty affairs to attend to and in general they can not be bothered with the trivial needs of a party of lowly mortals.

So it says three times in a page tha gods won't have anything to do with YOUR concerns. They won't come to your beck and call in some sort of divine intervention no matter how high level a cleric you are of them.

Here is what blew my mind today:

Greyhawk Adventures (pg 4) says:

The gods OFTEN visit the Prime Material Plane (Oerth) in avatar form to aid their worshippers or just to enjoy themselves.

Okay...so much for prior canon. It gets better:

For some unknown reason, the city of Greyhawk gets an unusual amount of attention from these deities-at least one of these beings usually has an avatar in the city.

Wow! So not only do they visit Oerth with regularity a minimum of one of these deities is always in GHC! Almost done:

Many ballads tell of awe-inspiring confrontations between avatars of opposing alignments on the city's crowded streets. Needless to say those streets needed considerable repair when the battle was done.

Historians of the Flanaess in the 83 set must be in denial, because the Greyhawk Guild of Streetcleaners sure have plenty of records of them visiting Oerth! All of this madness is compliments of James Ward, what do y'all think?

Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:09 pm Re: Gods walk the Oerth!

Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:12 am

Hi!

*** possible SPOILER below ***
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Is there any module (other than T1-4 tToEE) that has a divine intervention (90% chance of happenning) like the one described there between Iuz & St. Cuthbert?

Saludos,
Gabriel
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Discord: @GrillWizard

Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:06 am

the greater deities seldom come to oerth, interfere, care what's happening (as per 83 boxed set), it is probable that the battles in grayhawk streets are between lesser/demi gods... no contradiction that I see...

even two such encounters in a century could inspire "Many ballads" so that need not be taken as an indication that gods throwing down in Clerksburg is a "common" occurance.

Sat Jan 21, 2006 9:34 am

Boccob vs. Wee Jas in the Great Arena. Come one come all!
anti-magic fields not included!
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-Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
http://www.oerthjournal.com http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:11 pm

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:17 pm

If he wasn't trapped as a domain lord in Ravenloft, I could see Vecna terrorizing the countryside.
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Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:24 pm

Hey Abysslin!

And yer right! Vecna certainly ascended after this pact business went into effect and he should be free to cause havoc on Oerth in avatar form.

Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:41 pm

Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:10 am

Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:33 am

Aha! Yeah that makes better sense. My bad.

Now how about those street clashes? Fact or fiction?

Sun Jan 22, 2006 1:47 am

*Possible Hijack*

I don't know really about Vecna, but what about Kas the Destroyer? - He would make an excellent opponent, IMO. Smile

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"A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.

Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:07 am

Can't have Kas without Vecna.

Last anyone heard of Kas he was a vampire hanging out in the negative quasi-plane of Ash in Citadel Cavitius longing for his sword. Or if you go further he was in Ravenloft stuck fighting is ex-leige Vecna. But who knows for sure..one thing is certain that woe to any who cross his path and mention Vecna.

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Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar

Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:20 am

From the LGG pg. 164:

'Finally, no god above demigod level may enter the Prime Material Plane of Oerth without the consensus of a majority of the gods of Oerth. A few exceptions to this are, Ehlonna, Fharlaghn, Obad-Hai and Oldimarra (who choose the Prime Material Plane as their native realm rather than one of the outer planes), Beory (who may actually be the Oerth itself) and St. Cuthbert (who was allowed to come to Oerth to fight Iuz on more than one occasion, though this last action might carry a price to be paid in the future).'

This would rule out a duel between major dieties in the streets, as far as avatars and such that is a DM's call and subject to all that entails, so use as directed. Furthermore Vecna would probably have some of those dieties who call Oerth home, as well as other demigods ready to strike at him as well as detailed in WGA4 when Iuz appeared to oppose him directly.
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Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar

Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:25 am

Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:13 am

Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:47 pm

Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:12 am

I've always worked on the assumption that, aside from a few exceptions, that direct manifestations of Lesser gods+ on the Oerth are verboten by common assent among the gods.

Any such interevention must be balanced out by a counter intervention by the opposing team, as it were - so it's kind of pointless for the gods to engage in this kind of tit for tat. That said, The Scarlet Brotherhood book mentions that Syrul has often cheated at this game - manifesting physically without the other gods knowing (kind of like sneaking to the fridge in the middle of the night to eat all the ice cream. :))

However, I've always thought that the gods could work through their servents and objects dedicated to them - altars, relics etc. That's what makes temples and holy relics so vital to the gods - since the more there are, the more leverage the gods have. It also makes priests (PC and NPC) important - since they're the tools of the gods, as opposed to the gods popping around Time of Trouble style and grabbing all the glory (and probably devestating half the Oerth in the process).

As for brawls in the streets - I can see quasi-deities and perhaps demi-gods at this - but I think it's really uncommon. Given an ill-tended baker's oven could level a medieval city, think of the devestation a god-brawl could have. It'd be like a couple of superheroes having at it in Manhattan (cf The Ultimates Series 1 and the "Hulk want Freddy Prinse Jr!" bit).

P.

Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:37 am Re: Gods walk the Oerth!

Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:26 pm Re: Gods walk the Oerth!

Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:30 pm

denial.. it's what's for dinner.

Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:07 pm

Well their has been alot of poorly thought out published material and some that are just plain awful, that doesn't mean they can't be explained. I find it terribly dangerous for canon continuity simply to completely disavow aspects wholesale.

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and the Avatar premise is almost universially despised in my experience. However even these dreadful ideas can be worked into GH canon.

Avatar problem: this can be explained by the retelling of zagyg capturing the nine demi-gods and Greyhawk does have a large concentration of powerful magic-users, perhaps the bards have taken "literary liscense" and created battles or exaggrated minor conflicts or magical mishaps into epic battles. You can be sure the battle at the great signing has grown since the event into an epic event, some no doubt swear they saw Iuz there.

Expedition to the Barrier Peaks: which I despise, can be workable, if I remember correctly the weapons didn't do outrageous damage and a former DM used the religious, political establishment and obsessive private collectors to make any high tech items not worth the effort to keep. Not to mention most of the time people thought we were crazy whenever we mentioned spacecraft, except an evil bunch of bandits who made a fair living "guiding" wealthy adventuring bands to the area only to be attacked by giants or humanoids atleast that was their story when they got back to town.

Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:34 pm

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:18 pm

I also have to say - I don't have serious issues with Barrier Peaks. If you can have the City of the Gods, the Belching Vortex and the Machine of Lum the Mad, a buried starship in a remote mountain range isn't exactly out of place.

I'd even go one farther and link the ship to my other favourite vintage game setting - Traveller - and make it a ship from the Third Imperium (perhaps in the Virus era - hence the haywire droids) that misjumped and ended up crashing on the Oerth.

That'd be strictly home campaign stuff, of course. :)

P.

Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:46 pm

The technological items in Barrier Peaks are all ultimately limited by ammunition. All the items are eventually used up, and become little more than fancy paper weights. They are hardly likely to ever dominate a campaign, even assuming every last one can be discovered or seized from the inhabitants.

Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:04 pm

Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:17 pm

Thu Jan 26, 2006 12:14 pm

Where canon conflicts, I am not slow. It is back to the first sources I go!

This is the approach I took with WeeJas' tortured subsequent history - back to the original conception. This is not to say that later contradictions are always garbage but if they are unexplained, as was the case with WeeJas, they are garbage.

The "brawling gods" line of reasoning is just garbage, IMO, as unexplained contradiction of existing canon. At best, it is a "hook" if a DM cares to explore it.

The chroniclers were high?

The chroniclers were 1E and mistook "epic level" 3E PCs for gods?

Orcus showed up and declared himself the avatar of Nerull and nobody asked for ID?

YMMV Smile

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GVD

Thu Jan 26, 2006 1:48 pm

Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:01 am

And we all know the motto of the Silent One: "Walk softly and carry a mighty staff of power..."

The whole 2e thing with Avatars sort of spoiled my image of Greyhawkian gods. I had them always removed from the mortal coil, as when player characters ascended to those levels they would walk on their territories and still be struck in awe that there was still something greater after you got the Castle, wife and a good size fief to govern. Having the Gods pop in as Avatars and act as agents goes against this notion...I would rather do something with Dead Gods, like Monte Cooke did in his malhavoc product -

Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:28 pm

I thought Dead Gods was Planescape.

Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:47 pm

maybe he was refering the "Requime for a god" (or something oike that... a Malhavoc product that dealt with dead gods, rather then the actual Dead Gods module.

Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:19 pm

Just some thoughts....

#1-if any gods are showing up even remotely regularly in a game, I gotta ask why. They each come with a plane full of agents and operatives capable of almost anything (espically in mass), legions of worshippers ,priests, and assorted holy (or unholy) warriors to sic on anything or anyone that really honks them off. If gods were interested in undoing even just the mojor issues that trouble a land it would be a much duller place. Or compleatly depopulated by them working aginst each other in person. Avatar brawls in the street are pretty right out thanks.

#2-S3 is one of the coolest things to freak out any player that doesn't know what it is. And there are alot of them left. It is so fun to run it for a pack of younger players. But only if you DONT USE THE PICTURES! The last crew that hit it thought we had found an outpost of the nimblewraights from Blackmoor, since that adventure had just come out in Dragon. We all know the game is to just keep um guessing, why change it just for this run because it's relyy odd to the characters? The book makes it too easy for the players. Don't use it and the module is alot more fun. Oh, and the other tech-tomb hinted at by the objects on display at the House of Gold in Greyhawk? You rememer, the nut, bolt and dental tools? Great way to get them up there. Or send them to Blackmoor

#3-With the vast pile of ods avalible from humans, demi-humans, nonhumans and who knows what else is out there worshipping whatever
I'll admit that it is possible to have players have some interaction with higher powers, but limited. Really limited. espically when it's directally adverserial. Gods are like superpowers, things that get on their radar get blasted out of the sky by the Air Force, run over by the Army, sunk by the Navy, disected by the Men in Black at area 51, and covered up by the CIA. All at the same time. Twice. And they should be. You really want the common player to have a bad day, we have hero-deities, quasi-deities, and epic level foolishness.Keeping the gods out of any setting is a fine plan 99% of the time

Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:27 am

Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:08 pm

Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:12 am

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:21 pm

Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:25 pm

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:11 pm

Die Vecna Die had Vecna and Iuz.

Planescape "Dead Gods" had Orcus/Tenebrous.

The Minatures Handbook has Aspects of Asmodeus, Bahamut, Demogorgon, Hextor, Kord (Personally explains the Dragon article feat for being a descendant of Kord for me ), LolthNerull, Orcus andVecna.

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:07 am

Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:18 am

Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:57 am

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:56 pm

The Villain Lorebook is a free download at Wizard's:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

Third from the bottom hope it helps.

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:55 pm

IIRC, Nerull manifests on Oerth in Gygax's Artifact of Evil. I believe Anthraxus (regared as a Lesser God in 1E) also walked into the throneroom of the Hierarchs of the Horned Society. Oh yeah, the Cat Lord also hangs out in Greyhawk City in Dragon #100. And Kord has a thing for mortal women (per Dragon #87), so he probably also makes frequent trips to Oerth.

I think the whole "non-intereference pact" is likely more divine public relations BS than any sort of rule that is strictly followed.

Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:28 pm

Another thread dredged up by the new-comer!

Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:35 pm

Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:25 pm

Thinking of avatars, on one of the old threads (one I didn't dredge up), there was mention of a climatic battle in LG Nyrond, where King Lynwerd fought Prince Sewarndt to the death in a giant flying bubble...

Any chance that the given stat's for the two were a red herring, and that they were actually the respective avatars of Heironeous & Hextor?

OK, probably not...

How about, Heironeous & Hextor saw them as their representatives, and created the Bubble Death Match as a test of the two combatants' worthiness?

This would at least explain the bubble (although not entirely excuse it... Razz

)

Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:34 pm

I'm not sure which thread your referring to but it sounds a lot like a Living Greyhawk scenario... The Nyrond region had a major plot arc called the “Call to War” series of scenarios that cumulated in an interactive battle. Groups of players meet at LG Conventions in Arizona, California, and Utah at the same time and played the battle out. A giant vision of single combat between Lynwerd and Sewarndt was suspended above the battle field.

As groups of players finished a part of the battle their results were tallied by the coordinators. If more objectives were won than lost Lynwerd would begin to prevail over Sewarndt. If more objectives were lost by the characters than won then Sewarndt would gain the upper hand over Lynwerd. Fortunately the players won more than they lost and Lynwerd defeated Sewarndt. The various locations in the three states reported all their results to each other so it was all tied together for the entire region. It was a really fun night of gaming.

Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:31 pm

Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:58 am

In a recent WotC article they proposed that the shark god Sekoleh was an aspect of Merikka the nature goddess. That's an interesting spin on how to reduce the number of gods, although I'm not sure it helps us much in Greyhawk.

I'm happy for gods to send their aspects or avatars in response to powerful summoning spells to smite non-believers, or to avenge themselves on defilers of their temples (some of our characters urinated in the temple of Hextor and are now complaining at my frequent hints that he might one day seek revenge).

Apart from giving out the odd prophecy I don't think the gods should be interfering on Oerth. There are a few notable exceptions who spend their time frolicking down here, like Ehlonna. That would fit with her using an aspect/avatar for her own amusement, perhaps making a field of flowers bloom, killing the odd orc etc.

Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:08 am

Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:08 am