One of the major defining traits of Greyhawk that I think we can all agree on is that the world is "grey". I take that to mean that most nations aren't fully good or fully evil, and that there are ugly sides to "good" nations too.
What kind of "skeletons in the closet" do you have for your Flanaess? Keep in mind that none of this is canon, and deliberately reacts against some of the political correctness that's been imposed on D&D settings since 2nd Edition rolled around.
Here are some examples from my world:
-Furyondy, Onnwal, and Sterich, despite their general good alignment, are very repressive towards women. Sterich is where many of the more conservative and reactionary elements of Keoish society have retreated over the years, while Furyondy and Onnwal still retain some of the old Aerdi succession laws and ideals in their modern societies. In a sense, it's a lot like the short story "The Story of an Hour" by Kate Chopin, where women don't necessarily have a lot of discrimination against them in the legal code, but the society they live in is so stultifying and repressive that it's assumed they're unable to own property, support themselves without male aid, or take up the estates of their dead fathers (unless they can find themselves a husband, chances are they're SOL). Most of the Seven Provinces have similar restrictions against female rulership, for example; the only reason a woman rules some provinces is because no suitable male heir has been found. Once that heir is found, however, she has to step aside, no ifs, ands or buts.
-Much like the Native peoples of the Americas, the Flan have experienced really, really, really crappy treatment at the hands of the new arrivals. While in some places the encounters were peaceful and genuinely fair, like Geoff, Onnwal and Sunndi, states varying from Keoland to Sterich to the Sea Princes to the Sea Barons to Northern Aerdy to Ahlissa to Nyrond to Ratik to the Duchy of Urnst to Greyhawk to Dyvers to Furyondy to Iuz to the Bandit Kingdoms to Gran March to Bissel to Perrenland have all had their clashes, broken treaties and promises, discrimination, betrayals, and displacements of the Flan. To this day, many indigenous Flan either dwell in the wilderness or travel as nomads, maintaining their older ways of life, but the fact remains that the newcomers hold most of the power.
To be sure, things have improved in countries like Furyondy and Urnst. But individual rulers, citizens, demihumans and nobles can still persecute the Flan, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows even in those countries. A lot of this history is not well known; when most people are illiterate, and more interested in putting food on the table than hearing history lessons, some of the more shameful aspects of a country's past are ignored.
-Ask a historian what the Hateful Wars was about, and he'll tell you that the demihumans united to drive the humanoids from the Lortmil mountains. Ask a veteran of the war if this is true, and he'll laugh at your naivete.
Many of the dwarves were not so much interested in helping Celene so much as they were in gaining some of the rich mines held by the humanoids, and also undercutting their rivals in the process. They offered little if any help to hard-pressed elves, and even engaged in deadly political games to gain advantage over one another. If a minor dwarf hold were to be destroyed by fleeing humanoids so the bigger one could gain the valuable silver mines left behind by those humanoids, big deal. Anyone sobbing about breaking that defence treaty with their allies so they could get a tactical advantage can go cry in a big bag of diamonds.
As a result, the fighting pitted dwarf against dwarf as much as it did dwarf against orc or goblin. Worse, some dwarves used the carnage to settle old scores with the elves of Celene...old scores which mostly consisted of the dwarves being offended that they were elves. Gnomes were forced into alliances or press-ganged into service, with threats of invasion and worse dragging them into it. Even when they served voluntarily out of altruism or alliance, many gnomes deeply resented the paternalistic pride of the dwarves, and were horrified at the way the dwarves took humanoid women and children to be living sacrifices to the dwarven gods.
The humanoids may have been banished from the Lortmils, but the scars that remain run deeper than any humanoid blade ever could.
-Slavery is a fact of life in the Flanaess. In Greyhawk and Dyvers, owning and trading slaves is perfectly legal and done openly. Ahlissa, Northern Aerdy, the Pomarj, the Sea Princes, the Lordship of the Isles, the Sea Barons, Rel Astra, the Bandit Kingdoms, Iuz, some parts of Perrenland, the Nomads, Blackmoor, the Horned Empire, and Stonehold all buy and sell slaves of any race and nationality.
Nyrond banished all forms of slavery EXCEPT Aerdy citizens; owning and buying people from the Aerdy states is perfectly legal. Indeed, the slave trade may be what keeps Nyrond's economy from collapsing-all the captured soldiers and prisoners brought back by returning Nyrondal soldiers have caused a massive trade boom. Young noble maidens from Eastfair or Kalstrand, who once had everything their hearts desired, now work as scullery-maids and pleasure-providers to downtrodden, impoverished soldiers who kept them as prizes of war. Formerly proud Aerdy soldiers, who once rode under magnificent banners and proud military tradition, now spend their days cleaning out latrines and digging ditches in the boiling hot sun, with no compensation except the odd crust of bread and drop of water.
Keoland, the Principality of Ulek, Gran March, and Sterich all have "indentured servitude", where criminals, debtors, and others can be put to menial work until they pay off their sentence or their debt, and their services can be bought and sold as normal, but they can only be moved so far, and are regularly checked up on by officials to ensure they are being taken proper care of. Nobles in all the states also secretly engage in the slave trade, although this is flagrantly illegal.
-Racial discrimination: Elves, women and halflings can't vote in Yeomanry elections. Nor can halflings, gnomes and women (in some cases) vote in Perrender elections. Demihumans may be banned from holding public offices in some realms, blatantly favored in others (halflings in the Duchy of Urnst, gnomes and dwarves in Ratik, dwarves in Irongate and Onnwal), subtly discriminated against in others (elves and halflings in Gran March, dwarves in Sunndi, etc.)
-Past history in general may not be as sweet and light as one might have you believe. When the County of Urnst was occupied by Nyrond, there was no real violence or physical oppression, but more subtle things: the nation's treasury looted by Nyrond, all the best positions and offices reserved for Nyrondese, Nyrondal visitors acting as if the locals were at their beck and call, simply walking into homes and shops for "services" and paying with Nyrondal coinage, forcing the hapless Urnstmen to get nailed by the extortionate moneychangers, general harassment.
Sunndi and Idee are (or were) generally good-natured societies, but things got off to a rough start. The elves and dwarves didn't cotton too well at them at first, and there were some conflicts here and there, but things usually calmed down before too long. Indeed, the hostility shown by outsiders (and by Sunndi and Idee to each other, way back when) allowed the humans and demihumans to overcome their differences, and force them to cooperate, making them insular and distrustful of outsiders until the latter proved themselves. One could be accepted by these people by winning their trust, although that was far easier said that done. Distrust of outsiders, and a greater willingness to jump to conclusions about them, still shows up occasionally in these realms.
Those are some examples off the top of my head. Thoughts? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
In the Principality of Ulek, especially among the dwarves and humans displaced by the humanoids in the occupied territory, violence against elves is not uncommon. Outside of the main population areas, blatant discrimination against elves is rather widespread.
Law enforcement officials look the other way against physical attacks as long as they don't get out of hand, and if the elf does file a complaint or press charges it is rare that anything happens and thats IF the elf isn't accused of inciting the incident to begin with: "Them fellers of the Stonefire clan can be a bit rowdy. Ye should know better than ta sit near 'em when they been in tha' cups. Thas' jes' askin' fer trouble, Slim.".
Inns rarely have any vacancies for elves, shops charge quite a bit more for their goods, etc.
This has lead to a rather interesting quandry for Corond, though he'll never openly admit it,he personally agrees with his brethren but, for political reasons must adopt policies discouraging this sort of treatment towards the yellow bellied, tree-huggin' leaf eaters.
The elves of Celene are no less flawed ( not that they have been presented otherwise).
During the battle of Celene pass there were a handful of elves among the League of Right. When Rourk Splinterstone dispatched runners seeking reinforcement to both Ulek and Celene, it was an elf who risked life and limb to slip past the orcish ranks and get word to his homeland.
The elven runner did reach his brethren and delivered the message. The elves of Celene made a conscious decision that night to let the defenders of the pass fight without their aid. The runner made an impassioned plea to his kin to aid the defenders of the pass and when they still declined he angrily threatened to inform others of their cowardice.
The runner was never seen again.
A surviving elf of the Battle at Celene Pass doubts his peoples' denial that the runner ever made it to them. A handful of elves present when the runner arrived were also abhorred by the actions of their kind that night. These elves are now ardent supporters of the Knights of Luna.
The elves of Celene possess an air of nobility and properness, and it all hides a multitude of sins in the past. Those who speak of them above a hushed whisper are spurned by the others who prefer to live in denial. They have taken their isolationism to extremes and all the while pretend to be beyond reproach.
Above all they seek to preserve their way of life, and are not beyond doing whatever they deem necessary to do so.
The elves of Celene are no less flawed ( not that they have been presented otherwise).
The elves of Celene possess an air of nobility and properness, and it all hides a multitude of sins in the past. Those who speak of them above a hushed whisper are spurned by the others who prefer to live in denial. They have taken their isolationism to extremes and all the while pretend to be beyond reproach.
Above all they seek to preserve their way of life, and are not beyond doing whatever they deem necessary to do so.
Ooh, I like that. It fits in with my ideas on why the elves are so fractured and divided, never living up to their potential. Gray elves are among the longest-lived beings on Oerth, and the memories of what they lost, and never gained, still haunts them...
And nice ideas on the dwarves, too. Fits in well with what I've written in the past too. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
-Furyondy, Onnwal, and Sterich, despite their general good alignment, are very repressive towards women. Sterich is where many of the more conservative and reactionary elements of Keoish society have retreated over the years, while Furyondy and Onnwal still retain some of the old Aerdi succession laws and ideals in their modern societies.
I've used this as one of the primary motivations for a female player IMC. She's Ahlissan so I made them have a pretty strict society as far as sex roles and allowed that they kept their legal system relatively intact when they were brought into the Great Kingdom (the campaign is in 576). Bearing arms isn't outlawed, just highly frowned upon, but since she was the only child her knight father raised her somewhat like a boy, even taking her on campaign with him against the Iron League once she'd had a proper education at the university in Rel Astra. When he died the inheritance went to his next younger brother and she was told she would be groomed for marriage to her idiot cousin and would have to stop all that unladylike riding and swordplay. So of course she left for the Wild Coast with her chaplain/tutor/friend (the Cleric) to seek her fortune.
I'm also using slavery in the setting, but only of humanoids (mainly goblins) in the nations dominated by Oeridian cultures. A primary source of slaves is the Pomarj, with the stronger humanoid tribes selling off prisoners they capture from weaker tribes. Orc slaves are sold to human slavers too, but are rarer and not as common as half-orcs and goblins. Of course Suel (and Baklune for that matter) have no qualms against using human slaves so I'll be kicking off the old Slaver series, which none of the players have ever played in.
Even though my campaign (the first in about 10 years!) is only in its rudimentary stages and I've yet to type up my ideas (or give as much thought to the broader world as the posters on this thread have done), I'm totally on the same page as CSL and Danger Dwarf, as far as my perception of the "greyness" of the Flanaess is concerned. 95% of what they stated could be dropped "as is" IMC.
My campaign has just begun and is set in Gran March (575 CY), and a few ideas I'm working into it are:
. the Flan: as CSL suggested, they are for the most part treated as second class citizens in the Gran March. Some of them have secretly been trying to promote a Flan separatist movement, and are delving into the forgotten lore of their ancestral lord Vecna and the Ur Flan to increase their power (IMC, Vecna is still a demi-god and his divine ascension is unknown to all but a handful of cultists, and even the gods are not yet aware of his ascension... which is only fitting for a god of secrets). Flan "terrorism" will manifest itself in subtle ways (probably through the manipulation of humanoids, worshippers of other evil gods, and even disgruntled clerics of good gods... yet none of these groups will have obvious or intentional ties to the Whispered One, who will be whispering in their ears to act in ways that will further the aims of his cult and the Flan separatist movement).
. "Mercy Squads": not only does the Gran March sentence criminals to hard labour on the chain gangs, but those convicted of serious crimes (murder, rape, treason) typically are executed. A few, who committed a crime under duress or by accident (e.g., killing someone in self-defence, accidentally killing a soldier during a hunting accident, etc.), are sentenced to lengthy prison sentences. The Army of the March and the Church of Heironeous recently initiated an experiment called "Mercy Squads:" occasionally, they will spare the lives of relatively inexperienced (i.e., low level) convicts sentenced for serious crimes who have shown some sort of potential as "commandos" (no, I'm not actually using that term IMC) and non-evil intent. They assign them to "Mercy Squads" -- squads where life expectancy is low, missions are unwanted by the other knights/soldiers (e.g., they might involve entering plague zones, crawling through trap-littered caves, etc.), and where the tactics required to succeed will often contravene the tenets of the Heironean Church. While the Heironean Church and the Gran March military provide these squads with (non-criminal) leaders and "spiritual shepherds," claiming that a successful tour of duty will place the convicts on the "path to redemption" (hence the "mercy" they are showing the convicts), the truth is that these squads are the Gran March's dirty little secret. They do the country (and church's) dirty little deeds. Those who know of them think of them as "suicide squads" rather than "mercy squads." Not exactly the most chivalrous thing for the Church of Heironeous to be backing, but... the rhetoric is convincing. If you haven't already guessed, the PCs IMC are members of a Mercy Squad.
I was hoping to develop both these themes as CF submissions in July, we'll see if time permits... is anyone even remotely interested in these themes, or are they simply too campaign specific?
In LG Onnwal, we played it the other way around. Women were not generally treated badly, but the Suel Onnwi massacred the hell out the native Flan Headlanders when they arrived.
The Headlander Flan and the Dwur of the western Headlands had a long running feud. Since the thegns of the three Citadels were overthrown by a theocratic council led by conservative priests of Moradin, the feud has flared up into war. The theocrats have outlawed the "alien" faith of Fortubo, popular among some of the more progressive dwur.
In the lowlands, the Wreckers (Scant's thieves' guild cum freedom fighters against the SB) often controlled large swathes of territory (after the SB purged much of the Onnwalon nobility in 584 CY). Many Wrecker "bosses" have become in effect robber barons, "requisitioning" supplies from peasents and generally running the show. The clever ones have positioned themselves like the original Mafia Padrones - offering protection to the people of an area in return for loyalty (and coin, of course).
The decendents of the Onnwi Suel, who still predominate in north-western Onnwal got preferential treatment during the SB occupation (most were classified aas subcitizens). As a result, they have suffered wide-spread distrust, discrimination, and in place open oppression at the hands of the Oeridian-decended majority (including some Oeridian nobles).
It's an open secret among the nobility that a (now deceased) patriarch of one of Onnwal's four Great Houses profited from the (illegal) slave trade during the mid 500's CY and is suspected of having had contacts with the Slavelords. The revelation of this fact (by a PC) torpedoed the marriage of the Szek to a prominent duchess, who had formerly been his lover and with whom he had fathered an illegitimate daughter (currently his only living heir).
So yes - there are some skeletons in the closet...
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
