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Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:25 pm Yapa Yaya: Mary Vale and the Olman of Monmurg

I was reading this and thinking "Mary Vale? What the... OHHHHH! Mar-Y-vale!" I'm a little slow on the uptake. It was a sad day when I finally had to toss my Marie Laveau Voodoo Museum t-shirt on the rag pile.

This is very nice. The underground-Olman-religion as voudon thing is brilliant! It's one of those "I wish I'd thought of that" ideas. I think you should really run with this idea.

Have you read Maya Deren's "Divine Horsemen"?

Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:15 am Re: Yapa Yaya: Mary Vale and the Olman of Monmurg

Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:11 am

"In 1953 she published the definitive study of the Voudoun ritual: Divine Horsemen: the Living Gods of Haiti. Deren consulted with luminaries like Joseph Campbell and Gregory Bateson in her research and she shot more than 18,000 feet of footage during her three visits between 1947 and 1954. During her research Deren's position became ambiguous. On one hand she was distanced from the project, a medium for the transmission of ideas, but she was also closely involved in the ritual. Her insights on the Voudoun ritual emerge from her participation in the ceremonies. On one of her trips to Haiti, Deren was initiated as a Voudoun priestess. "http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/02/deren.html see also http://www.greylodge.org/occultreview/glor_017/divine_horsemen.htm

It sounds like she, rather than just her work, could be the basis for a good Olman contribution.

The issue is very fertile ground, but is also problematic. Many dislike equating GH cultures with those of the real world. Yet, for the Olman this was clearly done, and to a degree, so with the Touv. And these are separate cultures. Finding the right balance is difficult, but it is also the fun part of developing the Olman “nations.” I would expressly NOT want voodoo for Xamaclan, which I see of as more Incan. In fact my working theory on that state is that it is a combination of Olman and proto-olman that was able to develop early on the grass lands south of the Amedio, away from and while the trogs and d’kana in the jungle. Minimal Touv influence, if any. The Jerlea is another matter. It has Caribbean written all over it.

Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:21 pm

The other best work on Vodou IMO is Alfred Metraux's "Voodoo In Haiti."

By "run with it" I mean an article on the Olman "slave" religion and its pantheon. It's an interesting idea to explore.

You could take the view that the gods they are worshipping are just the Olman gods with disguised names or in the manner in which they are being worshipped and conceived of have they become different gods?

Also, kind of like what happened with Vodoun, you could have a mixing of gods from the cultures of different slaves into one pantheon. Are there Touv slaves in the Sea Princes? Would the pantheons be totally incompatible? I have to admit I've never read tSB in great detail.

It's also an ancestral religion so you could have totally new demigods from practitioners who were elevated to dietyhood. There are gods in Vodou who were historical figures, or at least based on historical figures. One of my favorites is Marinette Bwa Chech. She's believed to be the priestess who sacrificed a black pig with a cutlass as part of the blood-oath that marked the beginning of the Haitian Revolution. Marinette Bwa Chech means "Marinette of the Dry Arms." She's associated with screech owls, werewolves, black magic, cannibalism, etc... If you've seen The Serpent and the Rainbow I'm pretty sure the mummified-looking female figure wearing a wedding dress that Pullman's character keeps seeing is either supposed to be her or is based on her. Not a goddess you want to mess around with.

Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:36 am

Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:55 am

I really enjoyed your article Wolfsire and am excited to see another GH fan situate some vodoun elements in the Hold of the Sea Princes. It was also neat to hear smilian31 mention the Haitian Revolution. My small knowledge of that revolution substantially informs my version of Utavo the Wise's rebellion at Kusnir.

Let me start from the top, why is CY 530 significant regarding the enslavement of the Olman? Is this derived from tSB? If so, I highly suggest reviewing REM's old "Green Nightmare" article in the OJ, which suggests substantial slavery about a century earlier.

Regarding the racial composition of the Hold of the Sea Princes from the WoG, iirc, the Olman aren't even mentioned. Rather they're grafted onto the Flanaess by the UK modules' authors, ostensibly with Gygax's approval, but afaik, neither the Folio, nor the boxed set ever mentioned the Olman. Rather, Gygax populated the Amedio Jungle with degenerate Suel, the Amedi. Have I forgotten something?

Would you explain some more about your thoughts on Olman-Touv mixing, Wolfsire? It seems unlikely that the ancient Olman would enslave the Touv because it seems more likely that they'd ritually torture and sacrifice them, unless one holds that such acts were reserved only for the greatest of Olman heroes, which doesn't seem on point for a D&D world to me.

I substantially dislike bringing the Touv into the Hold of the Sea Princes until after the Scarlet Brotherhood has conquered the Lordship of the Isles and used them to dominate the Azure Sea because the Touv homelands seem too far from other powers to be enslaved, and tSB's wholesale introduction of the Touv suggests they should be introduced the Flanaess relatively recently although some of their crafts / artifacts may have occasionally been traded by Great Kingdom explorers in the mid-Common Years, e.g., Shinazi jade.

Instead of a century of Olman-Touv mix, I think that a couple centuries of Olman-Amedian Suel mixture amongst the slaves of the Hold of the Sea Princes makes better sense. Although fierce enemies in the jungles, I like this blending within the Hold because it seems useful for creating a distinctively Oerthly creolization or mestizaje. Of course the Seolder lords and plantation owners also sired their bastards, but having this mixture amongst the slaves seems better to account for creating a vibrant new culture amongst the slaves.

Also, I'd like to mix some of the Olman gods with those of the Suel. In particular, Beltar and Syrul seem like good patrons for a voudon-esque religion in the Hold (and good matrons for Madame Vale and her devotees).

Okay, those were enough thoughts to share for now. I really liked this piece and look forward to our discussion!

Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:09 pm

If its not likely that the Touv are part of the sencretic mix that makes up the slave pantheon, what about the Flan? Again, I don't know as much of the history of the Sea Princes as I probably should, but it comes to mind that a culture disposed toward slavery would have enslaved the native peoples of the lands they conquered. Even if the native Flan hadn't been enslaved they most likely would have been bound to the land in a state of serfdom and are more likely to have mixed with imported slaves.
In "Green Nightmare" Moore dates the advent of the slave trade among the Sea Princes from the aftermath of their defeat at the Battle of Jetsom Island (464 CY), as an alternative to piracy. tSB gives a date of 530 for the coming of the Sea Princes to the Amedio. Using the former would give plenty of time for such a slave pantheon to have developed. From the Flan you could have many local demigods of nature mixing with "re-labled" Olman gods and even some lesser known gods native to the Amedians, as well as aspects of some of the demon princes who they apparently worship.

Another thing I noted in tSB is variance in the Olman religion from Hepmonland to the Amedio in the aspects of Tezcatlipoca and Camazotz so it looks like you do have different aspects of gods geographically amongst the Olman.

In Haitian Vodou the gods are divided into different groups under a number of criteria. It can be pretty confusing. One of these groups is the Petro group whose gods are, as Deren puts it "the patrons of aggressive action." They're the ones concerned with violence, sorcery, revenge. Baron Samedi is the Petro aspect of Ghede the god of the dead.
I could see some of the demon princes worshipped by the Amedians as well as Hlerg (Llerg), Pyremius, Syrul, and Wee Jas being part of a Petro-like grouping. Maybe throw in Zotzilaha, the Amedio Olman version of Camazotz who encompasses underworld and vampirism aspects.

Yes indeed, it sounds like Utavo may have unleashed some Petro magic in the Kusnir Massacre. Shocked

It sounds like Erik could have been thinking of Boukman or Toussaint L'Ouverture when he made up Utavo. Even if not good call on you part, mtg for pointing that out.

Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:06 pm

Mtg, I am glad you also liked it.

Lets see, CY 530. I am sure Smillan is right that it is in tSB as to when the Sea Princes arrive in the Amedio. I pulled it from the boxed set.

This issues gets at the heart of why I wrote about the Olman of Monmurg and not the Olman of the Hold. As one of the aspects of my notion of the Olman Revival I have decided to present them in a good, in part, or at least a not-so-evil, light. Fun in New Orleans sounded like one of the best ways to do that. It, IMO, shows both sides. Good is justified. There is Xamaclan. The two Olmans documented in GH Treasures and C1 were good. The GHT tribe, as well as the coastal tribe in UK6 appear good-ish. But it is more about balance. SKR called them “brutal savages,” GVD read tSB as indicating “dirty savages”, Samwise indicated that the Rholla were repulsed by their savagery almost as much as the Toli slavery. I will accept that as long as there is some balance. The idea of diversity goes along way to addressing that.

Sure Olman were new relative to the boxed set, but it does clearly indicate that that is when the Sea Princes when to the Amedio. I will not reject that fact, but give it new meaning. So how do you harmonize that with Sam’s vision of the Toli? Moore’s early slaving? You play up the notion that Monmurg was a Rhollan colony. OJ1 says that the slaves were “herded down the gangways of Monmurg and Port Toli.” I would accept that as true, but the Rhollan were not going to want Olman slaves to actually stay in their town because they are slaves and they are Olman. One was bad, but both! Pass them through but don’t let them stay and let the Toli do the dirty work. So, I figure it is only when the Sea Princes as a whole make the Amedio slaving an even bigger aspect of their economy, rejecting piracy, that Monmurg cannot help it any more. Monmurg too has changed by them, melting into more of a local city than a Keoish colony. Nevertheless, the Rhollan temperament is going to have an impact. So you see Osprem rejecting slavery and Jeon II trying to do the same. Likewise, you have Olman reacting to that and changing both the Rhollan and the Olman. A compromise in reach with all. The exact same thing would not be happening elsewhere in the Hold.

Don’t get me started on Monmurg supporting piracy while accepting Osprem or I have Tavish singing: “I am the very model of a modern Major-General” :-)

As to the Touv, I do not suggest that there is Touv mixing in the Hold, except possibly very recently, and then likely only after the Wars. Not anywhere near far back enough in time to develop a culture. Not in the Amedio either, except minimally when Tamoachan was the naval power trading with the Touv et al. and possessing a colony in Hepmonaland. Rather my notion is that over the roughly 400 years that it took the Touv to drive out the Olman (-1250 Touv kingom, -800 Amedio true Oman), there was enough contact to add Touv blood and culture. If no other reason, the Touv probably were involved in rape while they were driving the Olman north then west. But we see peaceful example of Olman mixing with Touv and Suel in Hepmonaland. Some of that would have taken place too. Different tribes would have different experience.

Same with the Amedian Suel. Notwithstanding a 1000 year fight with the Olman in the northern Amedio, the Amedio should have a whole spectrum of mingling of Suel, Olman and Touv blood. That was one of my justifications for Xuxe’s chicha. The 1000 year fight was not just because the Olman and the Suel could not get along. As demonstrated by UK6, they did get along.

Such mixing is canon, according to the boxed set. It is inevitable and part of being human, even if the humans are very different. Only one exception is given in the boxed set and that is the Oerdian and Suel of the Hold. The only justifiable reason that I can come up for that, as I explained in the Plars article, was that they did not occupy the same space. Oerdian stayed on the Hool River, while the Suel stayed on the Coast. No mixing only is there is no opportunity to mix. Short fights are one thing, but Olman fighting Touv and Suel for 100s of years provides such an opportunity to mix.

Flan slaves? I would think so, but history of the Hold is still largely unwritten. When did the Flan get there? What about the numerous humanoids or reptiles. I am thinking that as the Hold is very far south, it was one of the last areas to be inhabited. Perhaps they got there shortly before the Suel colonist started arriving and the land was mostly occupied by Gnolls, Xvarts and a few demihumans that escaped the Suloise Imperium. When did the lizardman king depicted on Sakatha’s animated mural rule? Or was he a trog? The trog history of the Amedio and the Dungeon magazine with Demogorgon’s trog temple in Iron gate could inform that.

I am all for digging into voodoo and including the likes of demons and evil suel, but for Monmurg, I wanted a place that was fairly nice, if dangerous in its own way, thus the title "Yapa Yaya." Maybe one of these days I will figure out away to minimalize the impact of tSB on that town.

Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:37 pm

Hey folks. smillan_31, you're right, I prefer mixing the Olman and Amedian Suel slaves with Flan indigenous to the Hold of the Sea Princes, many of who were Keoghish (Rholan) peasants.

I imagine that these Flan lived in semi-nomadic bands and then settled agricultural villages prior to the Great Migrations, when they were mostly displaced to the hills, marshes, and the land that becomes Berghof. Those not displaced were incorporated into the common people of the Hold.

I definitely like creating a new religion from the Flan, Olman, and Suel gods, along with other odds and ends. (Remember, the Green Man first featured on Sybarate Isle.)

From what I recall of our correspondence, Erik wasn't familiar with the Haitian Revolution when the LGJs were first published.

Shifting to Wolfsire's post, I'll start with a question. Where does the UK6 tunnel exit? I take it that it's not in the same location as Slerotin's tunnel.

I agree with representing the Olman as diverse in alignment. For example, I think that one of those two monks released from Tamoachan reintroduced the ancient Olman monastic practice and that a small but significant group of Olman monks help organize the Olman resistance to the Scarlet Brotherhood in the Amedio Jungle's "Hook." IIRC, both monks were LN in alignment.

I don't recall Goodly aligned Olman, even in Xamaclan. Looking at tSB, I see it was aligned LN. What Olman characters featured in Treasures of Greyhawk?

Regarding "savages," Rasgon helped me see that Gygax labeled the entirety of the jungles with that term and thereby covered all its tribespeople. He didn't single out the Olman.

I like the idea of Monmurg being a Rholan colony and will need to review Samwise's pieces since they're so detailed and less familiar to me than older texts. Without reviewing them, I'll just say that the Rholan colony idea seems elegant vis-a-vis slavery.

Regarding the Touv, maybe I misunderstood the article, but it seemed to state that its protagonist was of mixed Touv parentage, which makes the Touv present in Monmurg far too early, IMO.

I think I hear what you're saying about very old Olman-Touv intermixing in Hepmonaland, but I think that should be weighted so little as not to be mentioned in the Olman of the Amedio -- whether one follows tSB or the Zindian origins we've created on CF.

Partly, I think we have different basic visions. For example, I've never imagined the Olman of Tamoachan trading with any Touv nations. Also, if Touv warriors raped Olman people, then I submit those folks were conquered and not generally able to escape north into Olman-held Hepmonaland.

Also, a basic difference between Hepmonaland and the Amedio is that in the former, the conflict involved city-states or nations, whereas in the latter the conflict is on a much smaller scale, involving relatively unsettled jungle tribes.

Therefore I agree that the Amedio tribes are a motley lot, with some having more or less Olman or Amedian Suel "blood," but again I don't agree that Touv bloodlines or heritage feature significantly outside of Hepmonaland until after the Scarlet Brotherhood has brought them to Azure Sea countries. (Actually, I don't even like that idea. Utavo should be Olman, IMO. While I don't fault Erik for introducing Sean's creation into LGH, the Touv are very far from the Hold of the Sea Princes.)

Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:58 am

Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:22 pm

Hey Wolfsire, I don't know of development of the two Olman monks whom the PCs might have freed from status in Tamoachan. From what Samwise has mentioned, I think the LGH has only treated a certain vampire from C1 (and lately turned its attention to Kusnir).

However I wonder if the fighter you mention from "Treasures of Greyhawk" inspired / is the same as Tlazarantli, who "freed over 500 would-be slaves from the white invaders ... in many successful raids against the Sea Princes and the Scarlet Brotherhood." tSb 71.

I usually forget the C1 protagonists' names. Is Rhialle the half-olve? What is the alignment of the Olman from the Olman Isles?

Thanks for quoting your article. I appreciate the ambiguity you created in Mary Vale's parentage. Neverthless, the point I'm trying to make (not to persuade another to accept, merely to express for the sake of sharing it) is that in CY 59x, people in the Flanaess shouldn't assume Touv parentage because the Touv are a brand new people in the Flanaess.

Even in the Hold of the Sea Princes, about a decade after the Scarlet Brotherhood introduced the Touv to the countries that border the Azure Sea, the Touv remain distinctly exotic. In contrast, Azure Sea nations have been introduced to Olman and Amedian Suel people, in small numbers, throughout most of the past century.

Also, I don't think the Touv are necessary to fabricate a voudon-esque religion in the Hold although I recognize the SKR substantially derived the Touv pantheon from West African divinities.

Wolfsire critiqued my assertion, "if Touv warriors raped Olman people, then I submit those folks were conquered and not generally able to escape north into Olman-held Hepmonaland." He stated, "I think the latter assumes too much.

My assertion is based on the narrative tSB presented, where the Touv steadily overwhelmed the Olman in Hepmonaland and pushed them ever northwards, conquering the old city-states and creating mixed populations that nevertheless were Touv identified and controlled, i.e., Cuhuetla.

In other words, while the Olman-Touv warfare might have featured rape of each people's women, relatively fewer mixed children were likely born into Olman societies because being pregnant and birthing children favors being settled, even if conquered, rather than fleeing, which is what the Olman societies of Hepmonaland did.

Regarding the Pirate Isles and the Vohoun Ocean / Pearl Sea, I think that region is the best location for mixed Olman-Touv people. However, their ferocity / savagery (cannibalism) suggests to me that trade across that region was not established but instead skirted its periphery, where it was still subject to piracy. One might establish cross-Vohoun sea routes ... but such seems less likely given the ship technology and infamous piracy of the people and the region.

Finally, regarding city-state conflict, that in the Amedio Jungles between the Olman occured prior to the Suel immigration, iirc. By the time the Suel arrived, the empire had disintegrated so that the newly Amedio Suel struggled against relatively disorganized tribes and clans of Olman who had recently / were in the process of falling into savagery. In contrast, when the Touv and Olman city-states of Hepmonaland warred, the conflict was between relatively organized nations.

I think this distinction is relevant because the capacity of city-states to incorporate conquered people seems higher to me than that of savage tribes that are infamous for headhunting and cannibalism.

Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:08 am

Mtg, I pulled it, the warrior from Treasures was not Tlazarantli, but Malabur and was a NG Fig. 8th lvl. Rhialle was not the ½ aquatic elf, but the NG Olman from the Olman isles.

That reference to aquatic elf, as opposed to any other kind of elf, is IMO very interesting. C1 makes several references to people who are red, black, white and blue. I am sure that those were intended to be symbolic, but OJ1 and tSB have applied them the first three literally to mean Olman, Touv and Suel. Who is blue? I suggest that it might be aquatic elves.

I agreed that the Touv generally should not have a parental presence in the Flanaess. IMO, their influence would be very old. The Touv just were not in the Flanaess. But the Touv and the Olman were interacting in Hepmonaland for at least 100 years, and I think much much more. You used the phrase “steadily overwhelmed.” I think we are bound to disagree on Touv impact on the Olman, so I will just reiterate that that “industrious intermixing is both the wont and norm in the Flanaess.” That is either a direct quote or paraphrase from the ‘83 Guide to the World of Greyhawk Fantasy Setting, page 13. Hepmonaland should not be excepted on the basis of geography. IIRC, it is attributed to human nature. Culture and circumstances will slow things down, but not stop it. And given enough time when you put people in the same room … You are right that you do not need the Touv to justify voodoo in the Jerlea, but IMO it is consistent with canon and it is useful, particularly to justify differences within the Olman, not to play up a Touv presence in the Flanaess, but to detail the Olman.

On the city state conflict, that is interesting, particularly in light of what you wrote about “LGH has only treated a certain vampire from C1 (and lately turned its attention to Kusnir.)”

After rereading C1 and tSB last weekend, I reached the conclusion that Tamoachan did not fall in -425 as has been reported. Relying on statements like the civil wars lasted 100 years (starting in -490) and on that only Tamoachan and Xamaclan survived after that, then I get that the city was around at -390. If you look at C1 and see the 3 tombs you see one with the map indicating the city’s prosperity; one near II-nedraw with clay soldiers and someone else killed with arrows in a sedan, indicating the civil war; and then the vampire tomb. Each of these tombs are associated with the rooms around them. IMO room 1, for which several people have dissected the dioramas does not depict the Olman homeland, but the land of one of the “others” the vampire “master of others” controlled. IMO, the “place of the seven caves” is Berghof. The other rooms depict the Jerlea, the Sea Princes isles and the Suel held lands in the NW Amedio. Aquatic elves in the Jerlea?

So, it appears to me that the Tamoachan was falling during the Suel conflict under the vampire rule.

The history is looking pretty interesting to me and then Sassy comes along much later.

Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:32 pm

Just read this article. Cool. Cool

Alligator Ascension and now this. Wink

I'm thinking you're rolling your own rapture weed. Cool

"I and I like. Till Babylon falls! " Happy

Pass that chicha. Shocked

Very nice work, Wolfsire. I really like your vision for the Amedio and surrounds. You've got a great body of work going. I'm planning on running a campaign off the Savage Tide AP and your stuff really adds options. Very creative and fun. Great job! Happy

_________________
GVD

Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:20 pm

Thanks GVD. But I have you to thank for it. Got to clean up those dirty savages. Cool

Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:12 pm

Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:54 pm

I got caught up with work for a little bit but want to comment favorably on the notion of sea olves and merfolk, locathath, etc.

I really enjoyed Fred Weining's LGJ article on Zeif, which featured merfolk prominently in the politics of the Gulf of Ghayar and greater Dramidj Sea.

Wed Sep 13, 2006 10:29 pm

Not to pattern this conjectured syncretic religion too much on Vodoun, but Agwe the loa (god) of the sea is married to La Sirene, who is essentially a mermaid in form.

I really like the idea of throwing a sea elf deity into the mix, maybe a lesser daughter of Deep Sashelas?

Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:41 am

As the subject has drifted into that directions, this is related, but not exactly to the Olman. But it might give some ideas.

The Legend of the Lost Seagreen Elves, http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=790

I have in the works a piece to connect UK1 to the Olman, but I had not though of doing so in relation also to the Sea Elves. I did think of connecting the Tritons, based on a line in Keats' poem Lamia. The general idea is that in setting up his garden, Porpherio killed the local monster, a lamia or equivalent, who was in times gone by an Olman queen, a rare, but not unprecidented things (see Isle of Dread).

For somewhere in that sacred island dwelt
A nymph, to whom all hoofed Satyrs knelt;
At whose white feet the languid Tritons poured
Pearls, while on land they wither’d and adored.
Left to herself, the serpent now began
To change; her elfin blood in madness ran,
Her mouth foam’d, and the grass, therewith besprent,
Wither’d at dew so sweet and virulent.

I had thought of the term "elfin blood" as it was mean, metaphorical, but if applied it could be literal. I like the idea.

Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:30 pm

Keats quotes, excellent! :)

I found "Lamia" amazing when I first read it and still recall its details with deep respect. Taking inspiration for it for Porpherio's Isle, a.k.a. Sybarate Isle seems well done.

Regarding The Legend of the Lost Seagreen Elves, I like it generally and appreciate your effort to braid UK1 Beyond the Crystal Cave and The Ghostship Gambit together but find the article only loosely connected to the larger World of Greyhawk.

Have you imagined retconning the Green Man into the Flan (or Olman) pantheon?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:09 pm

Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:45 am