I will be running the Saltmarsh modules for my group for the first time in over 20 years! I have the DMG II, and I'm wondering what folks here think about the Saltmarsh content in that volume. While it seems nice to have a resource detailing the town, when I peruse it, it just doesn't have that 14th century English fishing village vibe that the series stresses.
What do you like or don't like about the DMG II treatment of Saltmarsh? Keep in mind, I'm not interested in the crunch. I will largely ignore anything resembling crunch; I don't play 3e.
I'm leaning against using this version of Saltmarsh, but I'm open to being convinced. Any suggestions?
The LG version draws heavily on original events and characters from the modules. I would like to examine the DMG content to see how it compares but I refuse to buy whole DMG just for that!
In LG Keoland is very much a secular nation so I think there is probably too ontentatious a religious influence in the DMG version (which I'm only guessing from the picturs online).
I'd probably amalgamate the two versions myself. And there was a Saltmarsh adventure in Dragon recently as well, which might add some flavour.
Saltmarsh isn't just a fishing village though - it's a town of about 2000 people isn't it? That's quite a large settlement so it must have a more complex infrastructure than a mere village.
Saltmarsh isn't just a fishing village though - it's a town of about 2000 people isn't it? That's quite a large settlement so it must have a more complex infrastructure than a mere village.
Indeed, at 2000 it would be more like a town and market center. The locals may make their living fishing, but it should have a weekly market attended by people bringing in produce from smaller, surrounding villages and buying goods they can´t get back home. The fact that it is used for weapons smuggling (IIRC) implies connections to larger markets. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
I would also note that given its population, and edition revisions, Saltmarsh should have been close to, if not, a small city by 591 CY if it hadn't been overrun by the SB. So there should be a lot of abandoned buildings there.
I suppose I should have noted also that my campaign is set in 576 CY. My intention (the campaign started in 575) is to use the 83' box set as the bible and basis of my setting, then use whatever materials -- homebrew, canon, published, setting, non-setting, fan derived, canonfire derived -- that I so choose to introduce. In other words, the Oerth is clay for me to shape, and I am beholden to nothing.
My Saltmarsh will be of 2000 population. That is a fairly decent sized town. The DMGII indicates it's population has doubled. I guess it's become popular since the wars? I think I may have to build my own Saltmarsh. So much for being lazy! ;)
The DMGII saltmarsh assumes the events of the S1-3 modules as well as postulating various things about the Greyhawk wars.
I think you would be much better off scrapping it completely than trying to base anything off of it in any case, but particularly if you are doing a 576 CY campaign. Like Sasserine, its rather to 'fancied up' for the role it supposedly has in the campaign (and particularly the modules). Also, there are some just play whacked things, like the gods they chose to have temples.... Not one ocean god in a fishing village? Boccob instead of Wee Jas in Keoland? The choices are pretty much "generic smattering of gods a generic PC group might care about", not ones that make any sense for a keoish fishing village.
The DMGII saltmarsh assumes the events of the S1-3 modules as well as postulating various things about the Greyhawk wars.
I think you meant U1–3 — not Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.
Ghul, my issue with Saltmarsh as described in the U series — particularly for a 576 CY campaign (I'm in 571 CY myself) — is the way a town of 2000 is unceremoniously dumped onto the Darlene map, which supposedly shows all settlements of 1000+ population. I posit instead that Saltmarsh c. 576 CY is a small village of ~600, while Seaton is a larger village of ~900. I have no problem with populations growing thereafter, and I would likely use the DMG II version (pop. 3850) for a 591 CY or later campaign.
I think that the idea of the Darlene map showing every settlement of 1k or more is more than a little stretch. That would take the Flanaess' massive underpopulation to new lows. It also makes the world utterly stagnant if even very large towns can't be added anywhere during subsequent development.
I think that the idea of the Darlene map showing every settlement of 1k or more is more than a little stretch. That would take the Flanaess' massive underpopulation to new lows. It also makes the world utterly stagnant if even very large towns can't be added anywhere during subsequent development.
Why? Most quasi-medieval people wouldn't live in large towns and cities, but in small hamlets and villages. I have no problem with "subsequent development" as long as it's subsequent — meaning, after 576 CY. I won't argue if you tell me that there's a large town called Saltmarsh on the Keoish coast in 591 CY; it was always there, but was just under 1000 population as of 576 CY.
Well, to tell the truth, I liked the DMG II more than any other WOTC book, with the possible exception of the Draconomicon. The reasons for this are fairly simple... I liked the DM tips, though for most of the experianced DMs here, you will already know much of what they present. The odds of any one of us knowing all the tips presented are few. The book is useful, IMO, even if you do not play 3e.
Saltmarsh is presented as an example of the city building mechanic presented there. I am using it now and I find it to be fairly useful. However, I found the presentation of Saltmarsh to be very enjoyable. It seemed to me to be a place where the players could take a slice of it, and make it their own.
As to the size of the Saltmarsh... your players are not counting population, and wont know the difference. It is detailed enough that they will never explore it all anyway. They will be adventuring or getting ready for adventuring. I would suggest using the material you like from the DMG II version, and simply shaving it down. There are a few uncomfortable items, the most notable of which is the lack of a sea god. However, stranger things have happened,
I have made this suggestion many times on these boards, but I will make it again here. Start your game in the year 576... let them run through U1. Then give them a year or so ( dont remember what the module suggests, and no longer own it) before U2. This can be off camera down time, where they explore, set up house, recruit staff, find cohorts, etc.
Then, in 579, have them do U2, then in 561 do U3. Use the off camera down time to get the characters invested in the setting. They can draw up a history, or the inn that they own. This is a good way to get low level charaters invested without them having to save the world by 3rd level.
As this goes on, the calender advances. IMC, as characters gain levels they are able to affect more of the world. As they start at 1st level, they are barely able to affect their own lives. By 20th, they might be able to affect a small nation. All the time in between, their circle grows.
Yes they may save the nation once or twice during the trip, but this should be a matter of circumstance, not power. It shouldn't happen every day, IMO. So, since they can affect so little at the beginning, it doesnt matter that they are set in 576. You can use the whole canon history of the Flaness, because they can't change who passes out towels in the public restrooms.
As time goes on, and they get more capable, you can let them affect more, and not have to rewrite the whole world. I am trying to have my group hit high levels (18+, IMG) in 596. With that in mind, they can do whatever they want after that time. That is an advancement rate of about 1.1 levels per game year.
What this does for you as a DM is that you can allow your characters more freedom off camera than usual, but you dont have to do as much. Your characters, for example, have established an inn located in Saltmarsh. It has advanced to 583, and you need to tell them what rumors they hear... "well there has been a war going on in the far northeast, some place called the Hold. A god returned and took over Tenh, and now war is sweeping the continent. Oh, and Furyondy held at a place called Critwall Bridge. Some group called the Scarlet Brotherhood has attacked all the kingdoms of the South... it doesnt look to be a good year."
Without more effort than opening one of the supplements that we all seem to have, you history, rumor, fact and fiction tied in consistently and coherently with last weeks story, and this week's timeline. I think your players will feel the consistency, and you will appear to be incontrol of a cohesive world that is constant enough for them to latch onto.
The concentric circles of influence allow you to do what ever you wish along the way without changing the world as a whole, or published history. Or, at least you know how the characters are changing the world, and can easily adjust without rewriting much at all. It is a lazy man's way of using all the published material... but I am fond of it.
The "new" Saltmarsh includes the population of Seaton which was destroyed in a slaver attack, plus a "dramatic increase" due to the money from adventuring parties in the hool marshes.
During U1-U3 Saltmarsh would be much smaller, which isn't reflected in the map in the DMG II. Additionally it has so many glaring errors, the slaughter house is less than a city block from the nobles homes, the bluff their homes are on overlook the slums. Very poorly designed.
Yeah, most of the population in a quasi medieval environment live in hamlets and villages. But having 0 or 1 community (mostly 0) of 1000 plus in 900 square miles or so? There's not one town of any note in the entire viscounty of Salinmoor? That's pretty extreme. A thousand's not small by dark ages/early middle ages standards, but its not of any special note either.
Anyway, this is just going to lead back into the population density arguments again. And that's pretty much a waste of time at this point. But I think you are taking "rural" to the extreme and limiting the developers options in a crippling way.
The "new" Saltmarsh includes the population of Seaton which was destroyed in a slaver attack, plus a "dramatic increase" due to the money from adventuring parties in the hool marshes.
Sorry? The DMGII version has Seaton destroyed? Well that totally puts it at odds with LG then, where Seaton is the provincial capital! I'd still like to adopt names of npcs and buildings but I'm increasingly erring in favour of the LG version...
Don't suppose anybody has designed a stat block for that yet...?
Sorry to interrupt, but would you say the DMG II is worth to be bought for its Saltmarsh content? - I mean, set aside the *pollution* of the setting, is the city detailed to a level at which one can really make use of it?
would you say the DMG II is worth to be bought for its Saltmarsh content?
Just for Saltmarsh? I would say no. If you are willing to use the DMG II for some of the other myriad of DM tips and ideas, yes. I have used this book extensively for both 2nd edition and 3rd edition ideas. _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
Thank you! I'll check the book then the next time I visit my FLGS. I have already quite a bunch of DMGs stuffed in my bookshelves, so I am unsure if one more would really be of help. _________________ "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
The city is detailed at very useable level. I happen to really dislike many of those details, but it is certainly not lacking them.
As for whether its useful for that alone, it depends on your budget. Its rather a lot of money to pay for one town writeup for most people, no matter how good it might be. But if you have more money than time to do it yourself, its concievably worthwhile.
I suppose I should have noted also that my campaign is set in 576 CY. My intention (the campaign started in 575) is to use the 83' box set as the bible and basis of my setting, then use whatever materials -- homebrew, canon, published, setting, non-setting, fan derived, canonfire derived -- that I so choose to introduce. In other words, the Oerth is clay for me to shape, and I am beholden to nothing.
My Saltmarsh will be of 2000 population. That is a fairly decent sized town. The DMGII indicates it's population has doubled. I guess it's become popular since the wars? I think I may have to build my own Saltmarsh. So much for being lazy! ;)
--Ghul
If you don't mind too much going smaller, or conflicting with canon, I suggest you use Garrotten from L2, Assassin's Knot. That is what I did. IMO, it has the right feel and is very very useful. Just twist the plot a little so you can toss out the timeline for solving the mystery. The village is developed more than you should need and it is not hard to pick a few prominent NPC among the many developed therein to sit on a town council.
The advice is all most excellent! I have decided to develop my Saltmarsh wholecloth, as the DMGII version does not reflect a 14th century fishing town in my estimation; rather, it is more akin to a large high-fantasy town brimming with people and locations of the fantastic type.
While I would not disparage the author of DMGII Saltmarsh, or his work, this Saltmarsh simply does not at all mesh with the U-series of modules sitting on my desk, and perhaps it is not meant to. In fact, it very much reminds my of the SCAP city of Cauldron in its tone and presentation, which is all well and good, but not for my Saltmarsh. YMMV. :-)
My intention is thus: I will use the map as illustrated by Yabusama, and fill in the details of the locations myself. The map has an excellent key, with 25 locations detailed. Referencing L2 or T1 does seem far the more proper in this affair.
The advice is all most excellent! I have decided to develop my Saltmarsh wholecloth, as the DMGII version does not reflect a 14th century fishing town in my estimation; rather, it is more akin to a large high-fantasy town brimming with people and locations of the fantastic type.
While I would not disparage the author of DMGII Saltmarsh, or his work, this Saltmarsh simply does not at all mesh with the U-series of modules sitting on my desk, and perhaps it is not meant to. In fact, it very much reminds my of the SCAP city of Cauldron in its tone and presentation, which is all well and good, but not for my Saltmarsh. YMMV. :-)
My intention is thus: I will use the map as illustrated by Yabusama, and fill in the details of the locations myself. The map has an excellent key, with 25 locations detailed. Referencing L2 or T1 does seem far the more proper in this affair.
It details a number of towns on the east coast of England during the middle ages and might just have the kind of flavour you need to flesh Saltmarsh out reasonably realistically
The "new" Saltmarsh includes the population of Seaton which was destroyed in a slaver attack, plus a "dramatic increase" due to the money from adventuring parties in the hool marshes.
Sorry? The DMGII version has Seaton destroyed? Well that totally puts it at odds with LG then, where Seaton is the provincial capital!
To quote the exact line, "In that time, slavers attacked the nearby town of Seaton, razing much of the city. The combination of refugees flooding into Saltmarsh . . . "
So Seaton isn't technically destroyed, but it is diminished. It can be inferred from the text that it was a large exodus.
It details a number of towns on the east coast of England during the middle ages and might just have the kind of flavour you need to flesh Saltmarsh out reasonably realistically
The DMGII Saltmarsh is cool, but I can't reconcile it with the fishing village roughed out in U1-3. That is a hell of alot of development in 20 years or so. A wall? That much wall? And a temple of Baccob so big (going by the pic on p.138) it should be in Greyhawk? The art and the map and the locations are all cool, but for a town of 3000 or so? Who is paying for all this? The "adventures as a economic force" line has been used before, and was crap then too. The DMGII Saltmarsh is good for a much bigger town, someplace with a sustainable economic base, not a good sized fishing village in the middle of a trecherous swamp near a pirate haven.
Again, in U1 it was a town of 2,000 people.
With the general increases in population in the LGG, it should have been at or above the small city size.
I'm not sure I follow this. General increases in the populations (of which much more could be done) do not necessarily mean that any given community needs to have been bigger. Saltmarsh, as described, hardly seems likely to be surging in population. Marginal agricultural terrain, geographically isolated, no special resources. Seems like large town is about where it'd stay without some major shake up.
If anything, I would have thought its history with smugglers, haunted houses, lizard folk, and sea devil attacks would have actually discouraged too much immigration beyond normal population growth!
I'm not sure I follow this. General increases in the populations (of which much more could be done) do not necessarily mean that any given community needs to have been bigger. Saltmarsh, as described, hardly seems likely to be surging in population. Marginal agricultural terrain, geographically isolated, no special resources. Seems like large town is about where it'd stay without some major shake up.
I meant the general increase in overal population numbers of every city and country in the LGG. Keoland went from 300K to 1.8M population. Hookhill went from 4,500 to 7,500 population. If Saltmarsh was boosted the same way, it would be close to a small city instead of just a large town.
And as I said, having been conquered by the SB, I expect its population suffered significantly from that.
Sorry to interrupt, but would you say the DMG II is worth to be bought for its Saltmarsh content? - I mean, set aside the *pollution* of the setting, is the city detailed to a level at which one can really make use of it?
Yours,
Rafael
If you are following James Jacobs vision of Greyhawk, I think the answer is "yes." Jacobs designed the DMG II Saltmarsh. He also (co?)designed Sasserine in the Savage Tide Adventure Path in Dungeon. Jeklea Bay is, then being substantially expanded within WoG by James Jacobs.
Like any DM, James Jacob's vision of Greyhawk is unique unto himself. Unlike any DM, James Jacob's vision is being published and then accorded some greater dignity as "canon," if that matters to you.
Personally, I like what he is doing, particularly the map just published in the latest Dungeon of the area around Sasserine. Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble. IMO every campaign settings needs a few areas like this.
I give Jacobs and Mona, Sasserine and DMGII Saltmarsh a very enthusiastic "thumbs up." _________________ GVD
Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble.
Always with the FtA bashing.
IYO, FtA constricted the Hold as an adventure incubator.
Others milage does vary
P.
Whose hybrid adventure engine runs on all editions of GH.
Where FtA substantially constricted the Hold of the Sea Princes as an adventure incubator, James Jacobs, and I believe Erik Mona, are working to make the general area once again an area, much like the Wild Coast once was, one that can easily generate all sorts of adventures without preamble.
Always with the FtA bashing.
IYO, FtA constricted the Hold as an adventure incubator.
Others milage does vary
P.
Whose hybrid adventure engine runs on all editions of GH.
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
For the record, I use material from all editions. _________________ GVD
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
Puh-leeze!
There are two ways to write a setting book:
1. With plot hooks
2. Without plot hooks
Calling plot hooks "constriction" is about as reasonable as condemning an adventure with a plot as "railroading." You could equally say that a book with plot hooks is "meaningless."
Oh, and in case it escaped your notice, anything you do in Sasserine has to consider the influence of the SB too.
While the constriction can be debated, I do not believe it is debateable as post-FTA consideration of adventures in the area has as a preamble, not present earlier - how does the Scarlet Brotherhood, which took the Hold in FtA, factor in or not factor in. Any adventure much beyond looking for lost cows (and even then?) will need to consider whether the SB presence/aftermath would impact the adventure - a constriction imposed on the Hold by FtA.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
I don't see how this limits the number of adventures you can possibly have any more than any other piece of background. By your argument, having ANY contextualising background limits the possibility for adventures.
"I want an adventure pitting Napoleonic Imperial Guard vs orcs. What do you mean Napoleon doesn't exist in the Flanaess?"
Settings necessarily put limits on the possible, or at least plausible, range of adventures. Of course, in a home game, these limits are pretty weak, since DM fiat is the whole of the law.
I meant the general increase in overal population numbers of every city and country in the LGG. Keoland went from 300K to 1.8M population. Hookhill went from 4,500 to 7,500 population. If Saltmarsh was boosted the same way, it would be close to a small city instead of just a large town.
And as I said, having been conquered by the SB, I expect its population suffered significantly from that.
Well, I heartily support that increase in population and think it could stand for quite a bit more. But I don't see how it follows that because the whole region got a much needed boost to pop, that every instance got a similar one. Saltmarsh is a fishing town. Orlane is a swamp village. You use that extra pop to add a lot more Saltmarshes and Orlanes, not to make them cities and towns, respectively. IMHO.
Ah yes but don't forget that quite a bit of the population increase would have been refugges from Geoff and Sterich neither of which has large fishing populations and some of whom have returned home since 591 CY.
FtA had its points. The treatment of the Hold and Wild Coast in FtA, however, imposed preambles on the consideration of adventures in both areas - the SB and orcs respectively - where prior to FtA both areas were "wide open" as adventure incubators, without such preambles. Mileage will vary on whether such developments were good or bad, but the preambles, the constrictions imposed thereby, remain.
I don't see how this limits the number of adventures you can possibly have any more than any other piece of background. By your argument, having ANY contextualising background limits the possibility for adventures.
"I want an adventure pitting Napoleonic Imperial Guard vs orcs. What do you mean Napoleon doesn't exist in the Flanaess?"
Settings necessarily put limits on the possible, or at least plausible, range of adventures. Of course, in a home game, these limits are pretty weak, since DM fiat is the whole of the law.
P.
It is chiefly a question of thematics. Pre-FtA, the thematics of the WC and HoSP were one of a mulitplicity of chaotic petty states each a potential breeding ground for adventures so that, taken as a whole, the pre-FtA WC and HoSP were hives of adventure possibilities of almost every sort. Post-FtA the SB in the HoSP and the orcs in the WC have to a large degree homoginized what was much more diverse.
Of course, one can initiate any kind of adventure anywhere if one really wants to do so, but some areas lend themselves more easily to this kind of "anything goes" environment than other. The pre-FtA WC and HoSP were far more "anything goes" areas than say the Pale, but you could run any kind of adventure in or out of the Pale if you really wanted to; it would just be easier in areas not so restricted by the dominant theme. Post-FtA the WC has a dominant theme in the orc invasion and empire that did not previously exist, as the HoSP has a dominant theme in the SB takeover that previously did not exist. That in both cases the post-FtA dominant theme contrasts with the previous "anything goes" theme draws the constrast.
If one wishes to see no thematic differences in the WC and HoSP that would affect adventure generation pre vs post FtA, all I can say is . . . not much actually, as the difference is plain to me. _________________ GVD
How exactly could you run anything in those areas before?
You obviously couldn't run an adventure focusing on the efforts of an empire in the Wild Coast or Hold of the Sea princes to consolidate or expand.
You couldn't run an adventure of politics in a refined and ancient kingdom in either.
You couldn't run a whole slew of adventures!
And that has now changed to a whole bunch of other adventures being more likely, and a different set not being as likely.
The problem is not in the change, but in assigning such a massive value judgement to it, particularly in isolation to everything else. Why is it so horrifically unspeakable that different adventures now occur in those places?
It details a number of towns on the east coast of England during the middle ages and might just have the kind of flavour you need to flesh Saltmarsh out reasonably realistically
P.
That's a pretty good site and on it I found an even better link if you want to look at Maps of most of the cities of Europe.
http://historic-cities.huji.ac.il/historic_cities.html
A good portion of the Maps seem to be from the late 1500's but they are pretty useful as is or as inspirtation on making your own.
Thanks Woesinger.
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