Dungeon 141 includes the latest Savage Tide Adventure Path entry. A collection of sidetrek-like adventures, the adventure gets the players to the Isle of Dread.
One of the sidetrek-like adventures is a brief stop at Tamoachan to indulge a curious fellow traveller of the PCs, who the PCs are presumed to accompany ashore. Presented is a new map of new ruins at Tamoachan. Unfortunately, they are very abbreviated, as befits a sidetrek-like adventure, but otherwise less than might have been hoped for, at least by Tamoachan fans. More bothersome is the way these ruins are described; they lack much depth, using appropriate Olman names, but only vague descriptions of areas, none of which suggests much in the way of new possibilities for Tamoachan or the Olman.
Also presented in the adventure is a map of the area from Sasserine to the Isle of Dread. Except for the Isle of Dread, the map is almost a virtual duplicate of the map of the same area contained in the Scarlet Brotherhood accessory. Notably Xamaclan is missing from the Dungeon map.
In these particulars, the adventure is less than it might have been. The decision to create a "from-here-to-there" adventure out of mini-adventures likely doomed any greater development. Certainly, the trip to the Isle of Dread could have been broken up into two or three segments, allowing for perhaps a Tamoachan exclusive adventure but such would have then shortened up the opportunity for other adventures.
It seems, then, like a bowl half empty or half full sort of situation. Certainly for Greyhawk fans, the tendency is to see the bowl half empty as the opportunity for a greater return to Tamoachan was there but passed very much like a ship in the night - on its way to the Isle of Dread.
If anyone was considering buying the adventure purely for its Tamoachan content, unless you are a rabid Olman fan, I can't recommend it. Similarly, for anyone considering buying the adventure for its expanded map of the southern seas of Oerth, I cannot recommend that either.
For a Greyhawk connected adventure, Dungeon 141's entry is very generic. _________________ GVD
Tis a shame to hear of this review. But on the other hand those who are rabid Olman area fans might breathe a sigh of relief it wasn't further developed from the Scarlet Brotherhood's start. Sounds to me the travel is like 'Raiders of the Lost Ark', start in one point of the map and follow the red line to point B. dunda dundun dadundun
The purpose of the material in Dungeon is to fluff up the adventure path, not develop greyhawk. The Olman play no real part in the AP, so they will be ignored. Tamoachan is probably included just so they can point to it and say they didn't ignore GH canon.
Likewise, aside from adding the places featured in the AP, there is no reason for them to develop the map more. It's no surprise or disappointment at all really, unless you had unrealistic expectations in the first place.
And besides, do we really want the rather canon-sloppy and urban design-sloppy detail that was given to Sasserine applied to Tamoachan or Xamaclan? Some may, for sure, but I for one, don't.
Until there is a real product to develop the area with respect for the intended cultural analogies, I'd prefer the area stay undeveloped. _________________ All shall love me and despair!
I'm playing through the Shackled City AP now, so I can't exactly open the book and check it out, but IIRC, the SCAP book was much more detailed than the Dungeon adventures. Let's hope they fill out the STAP as well, wielding canon like Tchikovsky...
(Yeah, I went there.)
As described, the adventure sounds like a decent starting place for a good DM with some time on his hands.
Bigger question, did everyone notice the the pickled mephit is discribed as originating in Styes, a city I belive was made up as a location for Dungeon to set adventures in. Now it is being pulgged into Greyhawk just like Cauldron was. Any idea where they think this new city is?
Bigger question, did everyone notice the the pickled mephit is discribed as originating in Styes, a city I belive was made up as a location for Dungeon to set adventures in. Now it is being pulgged into Greyhawk just like Cauldron was. Any idea where they think this new city is?
I think it is in Prymp, if memory serves. _________________ GVD
OK, now that I have the magazine, here's a breakdown of the Tamoachan bits:
Savage Tide Spoiler Warning!
If you haven't played through this adventure yet, you might want to skip past this post!
1: Tchechiwhani's Nest
The basilisk is a decent choice for a monster here, my only complaint is its name. First off, why would a relatively unintelligent animal that lives in solitude have a name? Second, the name is gibberish, and not even loosely Nahuatl in construction. C1 established a trend of giving things and people in Tamoachan names that actually mean something and that are at least passable attempts at Nahuatl.
2: Xochiquetzal's chamber:
If you're going to use a real Nahuatl word, look up the definition first, please. Xochiquetzal is the Aztec goddess of flowers, fertility and agriculture. If there is any connection between her and the Gibbering Mouther, it is not explained. Nor is the significance of the giant statue explained. An Olman mythological figure? A past victim of the basilisk? Another paragraph or two explaining these things a little would have helped immensely. The strength of C1, what sets it apart from a generic dungeon crawl is the detail and insight into the Olman it provides, allowing a DM to logically expand the material. The article gives us room to expand (if the PCs want to return with Urol later, or demand the ship wait for them , etc) with the caved in tunnels, that can assumably be dug out by a well equipped party, but no hooks to get any expansion along those lines are given.
3: Mictlan's Portal
Mictlan is the Aztec/Olman underworld, where the bones of the dead are collected. This is a fairly good area, nothing out of place.
4: Ancient Tamoachan
Very reminiscent of the maproom in Tanis(1). Not a bad idea, and a great tool for DMs wishing to further use Tamoachan in their games, giving the PCs hints on where to dig through rubble or hack through jungle to explore next. Only one gripe, "Time has taken its toll on the map-like carving". Really? But not on the mouldering stuffed jungle cats out front?(2) Tamoachan has been ruined for hundreds of years, those stuffed animals would be skeletal remains at best, and stone can take the passage of that amount of time with little or no show of wear. It's possible something else has ravaged the map carving, but that is not what is stated.
As for the will o' wisp, there's two mechanical errors in the encounter. First off, will o' wisps are temperate marshland creatures. Tamoachan is deep in a tropical jungle. Second, the will o' wisp here is invisible for the purpose of stalking the PCs? Will o' wisps have to be startled or scared to go invisible. (MM3.5 will o' wisp statistics) Bad encounter, plain and simple. If you have to break the rules to use your chosen creature in an encounter, it's time to consider the possibility you chose the wrong creature. Also, it's name, Tlanextli, in Nahuatl, means "splendor", and odd choice for a name.
5: The New Tunnel
Nothing of interest here, aside from the heavy deus ex machina. Why not just leave the original tunnels open? They collapsed, but an earthquake conveniently reconnected the chambers? Ok.
6: Antechamber
The fluff description is agreeable, and the encounter acceptable. The only things worth noting here are the stated emotions of the Will o' wisp, rage and curious optimism. See area 4.
7. Tloquatcha's Crypt
The encounter with the Varrangoin is justified in the sidebars and serves the meta-plot of the adventure path more than this encounter specifically, so we'll ignore that, with one exception, why doesn't he use the bead of healing when fighting the PCs? Magic items in a treasure should be available to the foes that own them.
Now, there's no mention given of who or what Tloquatcha is, but it's another gibberish non-Nahuatl word anyway, so maybe that's for the better. Also, given the utter lack of knowledge about Tamoachan, there should really be no knowledge (history) check allowed here to describe what the map carving represents. Allow it to be puzzled out with hints and clues found in the room, or conversation with the Varragoin or the Will o' wisp, but don't allow a simple KH check. On the other hand, the map room can be a useful tool for a DM expanding the adventure, as I explained in area 4, above.
8: The Great Calendar Stone
The big fight here is once again driven more by the meta-plot of the campaign and has almost nothing to do with Tamoachan, but the calendar stone is an interesting stage for the fight. A little more detail or interesting hook for the stone would have been nice, but the encounter isn't offensive as is.
9: Guardians of the Well of Death
This is by far the best described area of the ruin, a nice amount of detail with no annoying pig-Nahuatl nonsensical names to ruin things. Pretty straight forward though, just eye candy for the PCs.
10: The Well of Death
This is an interesting idea for an Olman burial vault, and I have no issues with it. The idol of Camazotz is also acceptable, the only thing that hurts this encounter area is more of the deus ex machina the author seems forced to use to keep things tied into the overall campaign plot. "If you don't take the idol, some minion of the antagonist will come get it and force it upon you so that you're sure to have it when it becomes important at some point down the road"
Weee! All aboard the Savage Tide plot railroad!
Overall, I give the Tamoachan material here 3 out of 5 stars. The Olman info is scarce, and a little vague, but there's nothing outrageously wrong with the material and there are a couple of promising hooks for future development of the city ruin, though it's unclear whether the author intended them as such or not.
(1) Go watch Raiders of the Lost Ark again
(2) The dusty skeletal remains of the Olman are inside, and C1 demonstrates that the Olman do use at least rudimentary emblaming techniques. The stuffed cats are outside, exposed to the weather, past explorers, and curious beasts.
And by the way, Nahuatl is the proper name for the language of the Aztecs, which still sees some use, though now heavily blended with Spanish, in lower Mexico and among those Mexican and Guatemalan Latinos with a strong sense of the Aztec half of their heritage. _________________ All shall love me and despair!
Your 10/26/06 post persuades me that I had unrealistic expectations of the Savage Tide AP. I had hoped that it would at least evoke a living Olman culture in and around Sasserine, the Hook, etc. Perhaps akin to how the SCAP evoked an intriguing ancient spellweaver culture and cosmology.
I hope that the upcoming installment will build on GLH's description of tribal cultures from his Isle of Dread article but will lower my expectations.
Your 10/26/06 post persuades me that I had unrealistic expectations of the Savage Tide AP. I had hoped that it would at least evoke a living Olman culture in and around Sasserine, the Hook, etc.
Conversely, her post from 12-15-06 (and the accompanying face to face lecture ) has made me realize that contrary to my original impression, the STAP, while as a whole not something I'm that interested in, does have a few useful bits and pieces if one is inclined to look for them and analyze them in a greyhawk context.
I for one am enjoying the current adventure path immensely! Officially setting it on Oerth (instead of some nebulous Generic World) lends a lot more flavor than the past two paths in my opinion! The inclusion of a Tamoachan side-trek however could have been handled better. Instead of giving use new ruins to explore, WotC just rehashed a few chambers from the original module (areas 30-35 to be exact, inexplicably rotated 90 deg from the original orientation. This prevents even the explanation “um, the roof fell in on the old ruins”. Are they intended to be new? Sigh.) Assuming these ARE the original, albeit collapsed chambers, a LOT has changed.
It should be noted that virtually all chambers, hallways, etc. within the Hidden Shrine were heavily decorated, much of the décor partially ruined. This added a wealth of visual description and a sense of great age that is sorely missing from the ‘modern’ rendition. Manuscript length restrictions I suppose.
In answer to Despotrix’s Spoiler notes I’d like to add the following:
1: Tchechiwhani's Nest
Couldn’t agree more about the name, but does make for a nice encounter.
The stuffed cats were present in the original and should be crushed/rotted from the collapse and subsequent exposure to moisture (it is a rain forest after all.)
This was also the original location of the Calendar Stone; it covered the entrance to the corridor leading to “Ancient Tamoachan” and was treated as a secret door.
2: Xochiquetzal's chamber
A Gibbering Mouther appeared in C1. In fact it made its debut here! There is a full monster entry in the back of the mod ala a New Monster entry (complete with Errol Otis artwork!). So it's canon.
C1 states the statue depicts Xipe, “Our Lord of the Flayed Skins” an “ogrish” figure decked out in skulls and draped in real human hides. Flayed human (presumably Olman) skins were tacked to the wall opposite the entrance. Perhaps they decayed over time. The statue is surrounded by a large firepit. The “shards of rusted metal” are the remains of broken weapons. (The Olman had worked iron?)
The most interesting feature of the original chamber was an animated stuffed panther that paced back and forth between the statue and the well. It would not attack humans (it couldn’t even sense them!) and would only attack demi-humans if they attacked first. Too bad it’s gone.
Draining the Well of Liquid Light was a good move on WotC’s part; that stuff was NASTY! Unfortunately they also deleted a very nice decorative trap from the hallway leading to this chamber.
3: Mictlan's Portal
First of all, the corridor leading here is described as cylindrical, about 4’ in diameter, and carved along its entire length with “a profusion of ancient and weird glyphs – apotropaic sigils, admonishing, cautioning and cursing the trespasser”. The floor is “slick with a molten, glassy glaze” and slopes down toward the next chamber. There’s also a 2’ drop to the floor of the chamber at the end. Kinda hard for Med creatures (except dwarves) to navigate comfortably. Perhaps the Olman built it this was to force those entering to bow in respect for the dead?
The ‘porch’ area before the arch was heavy with traps, all of which have been deleted. Strangely, there is no mention of a necromantic trap here, malfunctioning or otherwise. This is a new addition and adds some nice atmosphere. The porch area was originally a separate room; the floor in front of the now nonexistent door was “sunken and glazed”, “The glazed stone…is melted to form the imprint of two monstrous taloned, four-toed claws.” Hmm, a baby Godzilla? A radioactive Troglodyte? Strange.
4: Ancient Tamoachan
A near copy of the original. Same idea, different details.
The map model was already damaged in the original mod, “smashed and melted as if beneath monstrous feet.” Whose feet is never specified. See above.
A wisp was featured in the original module (though not in this area) and will-o-wisp also appears on the Wandering Monster table in the mod, so they are probably endemic to the region (or at least to the ruins.) Again, canon. However, none of them are named. Do wisps even have names? If so, they are probably sequences of light pulses, or puffs of pheromone laden air. Maybe the wisp was named by superstitious Olman who revered/feared these creatures?
As for the invisibility-- while Despotrix is right about the MM entry, The Ecology of the Will-o’-Wisp (Dragon #328) expands upon this and states that wisps can become invisible at will by holding their breath or breathing slowly and shallowly. I suppose a wisp does this instinctively when startled or frightened, but can do so voluntarily when it desires.
The map room itself has changed only a bit. The pathways through the ruined map used to be streams of molten silver. (Ouch!) Perhaps the ubiquitous earthquake drained these as well. If so, the floor and walls of these sunken paths should be described as being coated with a thin layer of silver!
The stone embalming table in the center of the chamber was originally a copper raft that floated on the pool of silver and held a coffin.
The wall of fire trap is reversed; it used to damage those on the entrance side, now it damages those inside the room.
5: The New Tunnel
If this is a new tunnel, how did the Olman get in and out, hmm? Fishy.
6: Antechamber
No problems here. New stuff, finally! Don’t really like the wall of iron trap though. Seems out of place for an ancient bronze & stone culture. Perhaps wall of stone would have been a better choice.
7: Tloquatcha’s Crypt
Very nice chamber, though a bit repetitive. Major adventure hook here: Hey guy’s there are more ruins besides this one!
The illustration on page 39 of Dungeon #141 is a wonderful update of the illustration on the inside booklet cover of C1, right down to the wizard blasting a tear in the wing of the varrangoin! Nice! Fits the whole Temple of Camazotz/ bat motif rather well. Strangely, Sutolore is a newcomer to the temple: I’m not sure what the original beastie was supposed to be. I can’t find it anywhere in the mod.
I see Urol playing a large part in the Knowledge check business. Takes a bit away from the PCs, but allows the DM a chance for exposition. (Ya’ see, this figure represents….)
8: The Great Calendar Stone
Ok, the calendar stone used to block and hide the entrance to a 4’ diameter tunnel. Therefore if had to be larger in diameter than said tunnel. So how did it get here!?! It won’t fit!
Of course if could be a different calendar stone…
9: Guardians of the Well of Death
Nice chamber. PCs will expect the statues to do something. Nice bit of misdirection.
10. The Well of Death
I like the burial concept. The Olman needed something to set them apart from their Aztec inspiration.
This was a nice, if somewhat confusing revisit to the Hidden Shrine. Most of my players have never heard of Tamoachan so will not notice the discrepancies. They might even be inspired to return and explore the rest of the complex. (heh,heh.)
The biggest canonical faux pas of course is the Isle of Dread itself. Officially, it is set in the D&D Known World aka Mystara. How it came to be in the seas of Oerth is beyond me. But I’m not complaining; not only has this been a trip down memory lane, it’s allowed my to once again ply with my favorite race: Phanatons!
Paizo did not have it, although they had every other X in pdf. I ended up getting XSOLO also set, suposedly, in the Sea of Dread. It is dreadful ... in a bad way.
Paizo did not have it, although they had every other X in pdf. I ended up getting XSOLO also set, suposedly, in the Sea of Dread. It is dreadful ... in a bad way.
X8 is of comparative (bad) quality. As an adventure, it's not bad, but the material on the Kara-kara (the modules native people) is atrocious and boderline racist. Not worth the time, IMO.
James Jacobs, Editor-in-Chief of Dungeon, said in this thread that those are not the same rooms, but rather an entirely different part of the city.
In the actual article, Dungeon 141 page 36, it is confirmed that the area on Urol's map (Urol is the Gnome explorer along for the voyage in the adventure path) is actually a "previously unexplored section of the city". The rest of the story Urol was given when he came into possession of the map is false, but the fact it's not part of the explored temple complex section of the city is true. _________________ In a library we are surrounded by many hundreds of dear friends
imprisoned by an enchanter in paper and leathern boxes.
~ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Thanks, Wolfsire, for the Paizo thread link. Never would have seen it otherwise.
A DM with access to C1 could shoe-horn the original module into the STAP if he/she wanted to, with just a bit of work. It would depend on knowing your players well enough to know if they'd enjoy such an extensive side-trek, or would just want to "get on with it." I'm seriously considering it.
OK, now that I have the magazine, here's a breakdown of the Tamoachan bits:
I'm now converting the adventure to AD&D2e stats, so if anyone is interested, I'll post the notes for that soon. Should adapt easily to 1e or Hackmaster as well.
Despotrix is my former posting identity, for those who don't know _________________ Salud, Maria
Olmanifesto, my Amedio blog:
http://olmanifesto.blogspot.com/
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I ended up getting XSOLO also set, suposedly, in the Sea of Dread. It is dreadful ... in a bad way. 
