Much to my delight, I find that a new 4th Edition of Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha awaited me in my FLGS!
As folks will recall, Met Alpha is part of the inspiration for S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. The exact relationship between Met Alpha's starship Warden and the crashed Barrier Peaks ship has never been quantified. Adding to the uncertainty, C1 Tamoachan references the Warden II (as the II- Nedraw).
Given the previous Met Alpha continuity, the Warden could not have been the same vessel (or parts thereof) that crashed in the Barrier Peaks. Similarly, in MA continuity there was no Warden II that might have crashed and/or might be remembered in Tamoachan. This mystery has now been substantially resolved in MA terms (It has always been easy enough in GH terms to account for the Warden II as a MA ship that crashed on Oerth)
MA4 presents a universe divergent from MA1-3. There are then now TWO Wardens with different histories! It is now possible to have a Warden and a Warden II, one of which crashed on Oerth. Which Warden crashed, ie which is the Warden II, remains speculative but as the functional details of the ships are identical, it is more an academic question.
I have not finished reading MA4 and some additional information may await discovery between the covers but it seems MA and GH continuity appear be be more reconcilable now than previously.
NB - I like crashed spaceships in my GH. YMMV. CSL, I'm looking at you. _________________ GVD
I love S3. Not a popular position on here, but it is way too much fun to spring on the unsuspecting. Don't use the pictures and spring it on your newbies.
I just got a copy of the Origins preview edition of MA4, GVD, and am looking forward to checking it out :D
Do you know if there's any difference between the standard MA4 edition and the Origins special preview? _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
There could be only one - the S3 ship - that would have to then be said to have broke into 3 pieces upon entry into the atmosphere (Barrier Peak Site 1, Barrier Peak Site 2 and Tamoachan/Warden II). I don't think this flies as the Tamoachan/Warden II site is not a crash.
There could be two - the S3 ship (Barrier Peak Sites 1 and 2) and the Tamoachan/Warden II. This seems highly likely, as Tamoachan/Warden II is not noted as a crash.
There could be three sites, if you distinguish the two S3 sites from the "machine cysts," which makes some sense as the "Sheens" seem distinct from the known S3 technology. Then, add Tamoachan for three.
There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship. This is ify as there is no direct link to GH, unless you count the "machine cyst" reference, but again, the "Sheen" technology seems distinct from the "Comet" technology. I tend to discount the "Comet" ship.
So I count, 2 certainly, 3 likely. YMMV _________________ GVD
Unfortunately, no. I am not aware if there is a difference. I have not seen the preview edition.
It has "ORIGINS 2006 Special Preview Edition" on the cover, 176 numbered b&w pages (including the title page as number 1---sigh, bad formatting/editing still at work it seems, despite the rafts of proofreaders credited), at the end a two-page color insert/handout decks listing (elevator buttons to push?) backed with a cross-section of the Warden (both pages not numbered), quite a bit of Jim Holloway line art and a fair amount of shots of painted minis, the inner gutter of the book is too narrow so that the binding almost doesn't leave sufficient room to allow you to read the book (but you can, barely).
GVDammerung wrote:
I did not get to attend any of the big cons this past summer.
Me neither, eBay was my friend! _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Unfortunately, no. I am not aware if there is a difference. I have not seen the preview edition.
It has "ORIGINS 2006 Special Preview Edition" on the cover, 176 numbered b&w pages (including the title page as number 1---sigh, bad formatting/editing still at work it seems, despite the rafts of proofreaders credited), at the end a two-page color insert/handout decks listing (elevator buttons to push?) backed with a cross-section of the Warden (both pages not numbered), quite a bit of Jim Holloway line art and a fair amount of shots of painted minis, the inner gutter of the book is too narrow so that the binding almost doesn't leave sufficient room to allow you to read the book (but you can, barely).
GVDammerung wrote:
I did not get to attend any of the big cons this past summer.
There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship.
Or five, counting the Silver Metal Cairn. Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess, page 94: "A cairn in the Cairn Hills is actually the sleek vessel of a young god, killed when his ship crashed as a falling star to Oerth."
There could be four, if you want to add in the "Comet" ship.
Or five, counting the Silver Metal Cairn. Greyhawk: Gem of the Flanaess, page 94: "A cairn in the Cairn Hills is actually the sleek vessel of a young god, killed when his ship crashed as a falling star to Oerth."
Just so. And then there were five! _________________ GVD
NB - I like crashed spaceships in my GH. YMMV. CSL, I'm looking at you.
...I hear baby Jesus crying somewhere in the distance. _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
The Egg of Coot
Rising from the northern fens is a strange, dome-shaped
edifice, whose ancient, verdigrised surface is formed of
some unknown metal. It has but one visible entrance, a
round gate on its eastern side. Through this gate pass an
odd assortment of creatures serving a reclusive and
unnatural master: the Egg of Coot. Most of these beings are
either summoned creatures, or those he has bred or
invented, such as his various strains of diseased gibberlings,
several varieties of homunculi, and most recently the chaos
race of Qullan. Few other than the Egg's servants have
visited his palace-city beneath the great shell and lived to
tell of it. Rumors bespeak an unsettling combination of
mechanical and organic construction centered around the
glowing Coot-idol through which the Egg issues his
proclamations.
Since we're on the topic, here's the Starship section from Paul Stormberg's "Thus Spake Gary Gygax" article:
Quote:
_Starship_, Aldiss, Brian. Avon, 1969 (S.G. Phillips, 1958, 1st print).
This novel is Gary's inspiration for module S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, complete with 'tween decks, wheely sleds, paralyzer pitsols, welders, plague, the image of vegepygmies, etc. I used it to create a whole "Before Oerthfall" starship scenario wherein players were the crew of the doomed ship.
In an interview with Gary Gygax about several points of Greyhawk minutiae Gary had this to say (Q = Paul Stormberg; A = Gary Gygax):
Q: "Is the crashed spaceship in S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks the Starship Warden from Metamorphosis Alpha?"
A: "No. The size and the technology in this vehicle should make such speculation quite misplaced, in fact. The downed space ship if far too small, and its science quite different from that of the famed starship Warden."
Q: "In module C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan there is a clue that indicates the crashed spaceship in S3 Expedition to the Barrier Peaks may be the Warden II?"
A: "The downed spacecraft wasn't really the Warden II either. Sorry. That [the obscure clue in module C1 by Harold Johnson and Jeff R. Leason] was somebody else writing, not me. The crashed space vessel was more like that dealt with in a SF book - whose title and author I have forgotten, but whose mutated inhabitants collected "ponics". (I think the name of the book was
Starship, but I am not sure.)"
Author's Note: The book is indeed Starship by Brian W. Aldiss, published in 1959. It is Aldiss' first novel and was released first in the U.K. as Non-Stop and later in the U.S. as Starship. The latter title, of course, gives away the best part of the book, one of the likely inspirations for Jim Ward's Metamorphosis Alpha in 1976.
Few other than the Egg's servants have visited his palace-city beneath the great shell and lived to tell of it. Rumors bespeak an unsettling combination of mechanical and organic construction centered around the glowing Coot-idol through which the Egg issues his proclamations.
Good catch, Mort! One wonders if this is Greyhawk or Roswell sometimes.
Thanael, thank you for the quotes from EGG. I was unaware he had addressed the issue. I can't but accept his recollections, but it would be interesting to see how he would develop things were he to step back into the GH picture (assuming he wouldn't declare it all a bad dream ). While he didn't add the Warden to Tamoachan, there it is, nonetheless, tantilizing DMs who care to use the reference. But I agree, if there is a "solid" MA reference, it is in Tamoachan, not the Barrier Peaks. I know Harold Johnson (one of the Tamoachan authors)often goes to Gencon; it might be interesting to ask him if he has any recollections about the Warden reference in Tamoachan. Good stuff; thanks! _________________ GVD
C1 as part of Greyhawk is a bad kludge.
S3 is cool, but is best kept limited.
If you really need spaceships in GH, use spelljammers. They can also serve as awesome magic airships! A fleet of them for the major nations of the Flanaess would open up tons of possibilities. We could even set up a Greyhawk version of the Princess Ark series!
You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!
Samwise wrote:
S3 is cool, but is best kept limited.
Too true, but a splash here and there for color ...
Samwise wrote:
If you really need spaceships in GH, use spelljammers. They can also serve as awesome magic airships! A fleet of them for the major nations of the Flanaess would open up tons of possibilities. We could even set up a Greyhawk version of the Princess Ark series!
You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!
Hmmm?
Dragonsfoot?
Since when is being critical of some adventure a refusal to recognize anything written 85?
I think you have me confused with someone else.
You are right, let us never mention it here at Dragonsfoot again!
Hmmm?
Dragonsfoot?
Since when is being critical of some adventure a refusal to recognize anything written 85?
I think you have me confused with someone else.
Criticize it, take it or leave it. I was just trying to be funny in light to the quote from GG disclaiming C1. I appologize if it was offensive. I know well that you accept new material. If anything, I would guess that you have a preference for the new.
If you took offense at my other comments, I appologize for that too.
Good ideas all, rasgon: I'm fond of Giger's work, and it has certainly influenced the level of twistedness in my own games! _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Yes, those Giger illos are spot on examples of the EoC stuff. I had never made that connection long ago when using the location. With Giger in mind now, I am sure he capable of creating some Far Realmsian creatures ala Alien. In fact dieseased Gibberlings mentioned in the article reminds me of the Brood Gibberlings from Gates of Firestorm Peak where the Far Realms were coined.
Ii Nedraw is obviously an homage to Jim Ward and MA, there's no question.
However, like 99% of similar anagrammatical homages and references in greyhawk material, it should probably be nothing more than that, an homage. Gygax says so in the quotes provided by Thanael, and while I'm not one to automatically accept Gygax's musings 20 years after the fact as indisputable, the fact that there is no other allusion to MA in Tamoachan or Scarlet Brotherhood suggests that one this point, his word is probably reliable.
Presuming that any homage suggesting another system or setting means there must be a link with that system or setting would lead us to things like a Dragonlance themed Geoff, and that is something most would agree was not intended. _________________ All shall love me and despair!
One way of dealing with the kludginess is using a really big space ship instead of a tiny one. I think there are Nazca lines around Xamaclan not made by human hands. Any idea what shapes they come in?
There could be only one - the S3 ship - that would have to then be said to have broke into 3 pieces upon entry into the atmosphere (Barrier Peak Site 1, Barrier Peak Site 2 and Tamoachan/Warden II). I don't think this flies as the Tamoachan/Warden II site is not a crash.
There could be two - the S3 ship (Barrier Peak Sites 1 and 2) and the Tamoachan/Warden II. This seems highly likely, as Tamoachan/Warden II is not noted as a crash.
There could be three sites, if you distinguish the two S3 sites from the "machine cysts," which makes some sense as the "Sheens" seem distinct from the known S3 technology. Then, add Tamoachan for three.
So I count, 2 certainly, 3 likely. YMMV [/quote]
Where are you getting two ships in S3? I don't remember seeing anything about a second section of the ship being there.
I do remember the intro bit at the beginning of the module that says the ship was sealed off into sections and each section left to its individual fate. But I don't remember ever seeing anything about a second section of the ship landing anywhere on Oerth.
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YMMV. CSL, I'm looking at you. 
