Sprinkled throughtout the many GH products are translations of words from the various languages (Flan, Olman, etc.. as well as the racial tongues) into common. I've started making a conversion dictionary of all these translations. However, I'm not blessed with all of the products that have ever been released. That, and there is a lot of ground to cover. Anyone here interested in helping out with this project?
Two good places to start are Paul Stormberg's article, "Ye Auld Neblin: Or How to Say Hotfoot in Gnomish" in Oerth Journal 12 and The Scarlet Brotherhood.
Scarlet Brotherhood was a great source for Suel translations. LGG has some common/Flan words, though I'm not 100% done with it yet.
I check out "Ye Auld Neblin: Or How to Say Hotfoot in Gnomish" from OJ12 and added the common/gnomish words to the list. Is this article generally accepted? Is there any dissenting opinion on the thesis it put forth - that Flan burrows heavily from gnomish?
I check out "Ye Auld Neblin: Or How to Say Hotfoot in Gnomish" from OJ12 and added the common/gnomish words to the list. Is this article generally accepted? Is there any dissenting opinion on the thesis it put forth - that Flan burrows heavily from gnomish?
Any other sources would be appreciated.
There are dissenting opinions about Paul's work in that article, but mine is not one of them. I accept his premise that Gnome is the lingua franca of demi-humans in the Flanaess. (It makes more sense when one considers that all demi-humans — at least in AD&D® — speak Gnome as one of their basic racial tongues.)
Hi all -
I love this idea. How far into this are you? How dedicated?
I think that this project is awesome, but needs to be more than just an article here on CF!, or even as a pdf document. Both of those are awesome choices, and having a pdf would be perfect for carrying it around and having access to it, but a GH dictionary website, in the vein of dictionary.com would be awesome.
GreyhawkOnline.com (GHO) hosts the majority of the files here at CF! and I think this is exactly why I have it and offer the free web hosting. I'd love to see a GH Dictionary on GHO, and would be willing to offer a few things to help you along the way.
Heck, you can have it going even without having all the books yet, make it a growing thing, and as DM Prata said, not all people agree with a conversion. So when listing a conversion, list who offers it, as well as potential other conversions, sounds and other things. Some say ToeMaytoe and others say ToeMatoe, so offer these as well.
Send me a PM and I'll see what I can do to help with this awesome endevor. _________________ Theocrat Issak
So far, I've grabbed some Flan words from Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, raided Scarlet Brotherhood for the Suel translations, and added the gnomish words from "Ye Auld Neblin: Or How to Say Hotfoot in Gnomish" (Oerth Journal 12).
I'm going to keep plugging away at this for as long as it takes. I've been annotating the sources for all terms in case discepencies creep up as I progress. This will allow people to make their own judgement as to the validity of any single translation.
I agree that it would be nice to have some sort of "tool" to plug the dictionary into. Unfortunately, I'm no programmer :) If you're volunteering technical know-how, I'm all ears. I've sent you a PM, as you requested.
I'm by no means done with this project, but I've made a start. I thought I'd post some of the information I've found so that others can point me to sources I've missed.
Old Oeridian
aer: sky (LGG 23)
Aerdi: sky people (LGG 23)
Orz: humble (SLV 47)
nehr/nyr: lake (TAB)
Nyr Dyv: deep/bottomless lake (TAB)
Solnor: the birthplace of the sun (LGG 23)
Thalos: fortress (DRG287 88)
No, I don't. I assume it's from King of the Dead by Gene DeWeese, but I haven't read that book (or any Ravenloft novel), only read summaries of it online.
Considering the "rel" in Rel Mord and Rel Deven we can assume "rel" means "city" and/or "city of."
The clan names in the Cold Tongue from p. 55 of the LGG are at odds with Kevelli Mauk's Journal in tSB p. 2 where it says that the Suel Emperor sent the houses of Schnai, Cruskii and Fruztii to bring back his son.
The clan names in the Cold Tongue from p. 55 of the LGG are at odds with Kevelli Mauk's Journal in tSB p. 2 where it says that the Suel Emperor sent the houses of Schnai, Cruskii and Fruztii to bring back his son.
Deliberate retcon, I think.
Fragarach means "Final Word" in the language of the ancient Oeridians (Unearthed Arcana, 1st edition, page 105).
Mitrik is Old Oeridian for "Salvation" (LGG, 129)
Ahmon-Ibor is Old Oeridian for "Sibilant Beast" (Dragon #290/LGJ #6, page 102)
"-ond" - as in Nyrond, Ferrond, Furyondy etc appears to be Old Oeridian for something like "land" or "realm".
"Ker" appears in Ivid in the name of Ker Bazainn, a castle/fortress in the South Province. I've taken it to be Old Oeridian for fort/castle/fortress/hold.
Starting with the last post on page one and continuing through page two _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
"Ker" appears in Ivid in the name of Ker Bazainn, a castle/fortress in the South Province. I've taken it to be Old Oeridian for fort/castle/fortress/hold.
Ker is identified in TSB as meaning brave. It is a title used for fighters, as in Ker Ashimar (brave Ashimar), in the same manner as the Suel word for father is used for monks of the SB and uncle for assassins.
rasgon wrote:
Fragarach means "Final Word" in the language of the ancient Oeridians (Unearthed Arcana, 1st edition, page 105).
Of course, ToEE translates Fragarach as Answerer and doesn't give an Oerthly linguistic origin. This source also has different "+'s" on the original Fragarach and the 6 copies, but eh...
qullan, name of race of nonhumans (describes their mottled appearance). (LGG 35)
This dialect may be the one spoken by the Tiger Nomads, or the Paynim. It's roots are uncertain, but it likely has roots in Baklunish.
OLD OERIDIAN
aer: sky (LGG 23)
aerdi: sky people (LGG 23)
Ahmon-Ibor: The Sibilant Beast [Demogorgon] (LGJ6 102)
delante-vinnos: that which strikes down ignorance (DRG263 48)
deshaand: helper (DRG264 49)
dirawaen: meaning uncertain [magical road] (IVID 6)
dirawein: meaning uncertain [magical road] (LGG 25)
fragarach: final word (UA 105)
fragarach: the answerer [error - see below] (TEE 126)
herzog: great prince (LGG 24)
issai: ice (DRG265 57)
keleshe: needle (DRG265 59)
nehr/nyr: lake (TAB)
nyr dyv: deep/bottomless lake (TAB)
-ond: land / realm (assumed - cf Nyrond, Ferrond, Furyondy)
orz: humble (SLV 47)
rel: city (assumed)
rel astra: city of the heavens (LGG 91)
solnor: the birthplace of the sun (LGG 23)
thalos: fortress (DRG287 88)
tla: snow (DRG265 57)
vexxin: frigid (DRG265 57)
ANCIENT SULOISE
cf dictionary in The Scarlet Brotherhood. In addition, note the following:
Zeai, the name which the Sea Barbarians gave themselves, may be derived rom the language of the ancient Suloise. (LGG 34)
The name of the Silent Ones of Keoland is derived from an ancient Suel phrase which translates as "those who must not speak." (LGG 162)
TOUV
bala: meaning unknown (TSB 44)
Konola: Luna (TSB 38)
Koxanag: Celene (TSB 38)
Melavi: the bountiful place [Hepmonaland] (TSB 46)
Vay Nama: ugly border (TSB 54)
Bala is the title given to warriors who serve with distinction or exceptional bravery. It is equivalent to knighthood in the Flanaess.
Koxanag is named for the goddess Xanag.
VELONDI
mitrik: salvation (LGG 129)
Telless ve Turu Decada: Keepers of the Crowns and Moon (DRG256 50)
LGG gives the meaning of mitrik, but does not give a root language. Given the context, it could be a Flan word, an Oeridian word, or a word from a local dialect that mixes the two. The Oerid Vollar tribe could be the ones that the Velondi language comes from, in which case "mitrik" may be more accurately classified as velondi, if indeed it is Oeridian.
In Dragon Magazine's article detailing the Keepers of the Crowns and Moon, it states that tellessi means "keepers." Looking at the full name, this doesn't make sense. I need to do more research on this.
SOURCES
Unearthed Arcana; 1985
Temple of Elemental Evil; May 1987
Greyhawk Adventures; 1988
Greyhawk: The Adventure Begins; July 1998
"Hidden Agendas," Dragon Magazine 256; February 1999
"The Oeridian Lesser Gods," Dragon Magazine 263; September 1999
"The Oeridian Lesser Gods," Dragon Magazine 264; October 1999
"The Oeridian Lesser Gods," Dragon Magazine 265; November 1999
Return to the Keep on the Borderlands; 1999
Greyhawk: The Scarlet Brotherhood; 1999
Greyhawk: Slavers; 2000
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer; 2000
"The Armies of Thalos," Dragon Magazine 287; September 2001
"The Death Knights of Oerth," Living Greyhawk Journal 6; December 2001
"Places of Mystery: Spinecastle and Veralos," Living Greyhawk Journal 9; March 2002
REQUEST FOR HELP: I need access to a book called Castles: Hart, whatever that is. It's in Zavoda's index, and has information about the Velondi language. If anyone can help, please let me know.[/img]
RE Azal'Lan = "Wizard-King" (Oerid): Has anyone been able to track down the Ravenloft reference on this yet?
RE Cold Tongue clan names from TSB 2: The three nameds listed there, as far as I can tell, are not for the barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula. They appear to be Suel names for goblins, hobgoblins, etc...
RE Mitrik = "Salvation" (Oerid): LGG 129 does state the meaning of the word, but does not give a root language. Given the context, "mitrik" could be a Flan word, an Oeridian word, or a word from a local dialect that mixes the two. The Oerid Vollar tribe could be the ones that the Velondi language comes from, in which case "mitrik" may be more accurately classified as velondi, if indeed it is Oeridian.
RE Fragarach: UA 105 was the first to mention this sword, and the name is translated "final word" (Oerid). ToEE 126 translates it as "The Answerer." If you read the UA text, however, you find that there are nine of these swords, each of which bears an identifying name. One of these appellations in "Answerer." It's clear the sources contradict, and I would argue that ToEE got it wrong. Both translations will be noted in the dictionary.
RE Ker: TSB 95 does indeed define "ker" as a Suloise word meaning "brave." I tried finding another instance of "Ker" being used as a stand-alone prefix for a strategic location (cf. Ker Bazainn), but was unable to do so. There are towns and villages with "ker-" in their names, which might be an interesting study. "Ker" as a Suloise equivalent to the Celtic Caer is a possibility (in usage only), but without further evidence to support the theory, I'm going to leave it out.
ras, that wouldn't surprise me. I'm thinking these roads would be concentrated in Aerdy proper, but that arteries would hed from Rauxes to Dyvers and other places of importance. Stornawain as a dirawein sounds possible.
RE: drachensgrab (Flan for "the tomb of the dragon")
This seems like a candidate for some conjecture. There are a few other words out there with "drach" or "drachen" in them, and I'm thinking we might be able to determine what these mean if we put our heads together. I'm no linguist, but the word roots don't appear to be that complex.
(1) Drach Aloos Mountain (Slavers 88)
(2) Drachen Keep (the 'A' module series)
(3) Drachenkopf Mountain (all throughout Slavers)
If we assume that "drach" means "dragon," and "drachen" means something like "... of the dragon," then:
(1) "Dragon" Aloos Mountain
(2) Keep "... of the Dragon"
(3) "kopf" "... of the dragon" Mountain
Anyone have a guess as to what "Aloos" or "kopf" might mean?
EDIT: "kopf" is German for "head." Could Drachenkopf mean "head of the dragon" or "dragon's head?" Could the actual mountain look like a giant dragon's head? It is the capital of the Earth Dragon Cult, and "kopf" is related to the word "capital." Could that be the key?
EDIT: "aLOos" is said (forget the URL I got this from) to mean "a large urn used for burial purposes. Any ideas?
Does anyone think translating "Drachen Keep" or "Keep of the Dragon" or "Dragon Keep" is an error?
Last edited by ephealy on Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Tamoachan translates to "the Home Sought After" in Olman. However, that language is practically identical to Nahuatl (the modern form of the language of the ancient Aztec) and Tamoachan is no different: temoa ("to look for") + chantli ("house/home").
If you want to track down Olman words for places and deities, you need look no further (or very little further) than a Nahuatl dictionary for their real-world translations. I'm not sure if that's really the spirit of your project, though.
Since there are very few Olman translations out there, it's not likely to be a problem. I'd prefer it to not be a direct rip-off of a real language, but that can't really be helped.
Language is the store-house of culture. It's hard to believe that Olman, a culture that is modelled after that of the Aztec/Maya, would develop a language that is very different from the one that developed out of those cultures.
EDIT: "kopf" is German for "head." Could Drachenkopf mean "head of the dragon" or "dragon's head?" Could the actual mountain look like a giant dragon's head? It is the capital of the Earth Dragon Cult, and "kopf" is related to the word "capital." Could that be the key?
EDIT: "aLOos" is said (forget the URL I got this from) to mean "a large urn used for burial purposes. Any ideas?
Does anyone think translating "Drachen Keep" or "Keep of the Dragon" or "Dragon Keep" is an error?
Those are plain german terms: Drachen means dragon, Kopf is head, and Grab means grave. Drachenkopf = dragon's head, Drachensgrab = dragon's grave
I'm not aware how Kopf is related in any way to capital,which is Hauptstadt in german. (At last not any more than head is related to capital.)
se-murma - "our mother" referring to the monstrous ameoboid Mother
worshipped by the Lerara. 1
thrideen - "third-eye" was presumably the nickname of the Emperor Ubrond of the house of Neheli. 4
flan -
dwur-rohoi - "twisted dwarves" from which dwurroh then derro is derived. 1
rhelt - "king" 3
oeridian -
jermlaine - "troublemaker" 1
Harak col Hakul Deshaun - "he who comes with fire and fury" loosely translated. 2
common -
gremlin - a corruption of jermlaine 1
1) Dragon #241, p.38 "Legacies of the Suel Imperium", by Roger E. Moore
2) Dragon #241, p.75 "Arcane Lore: Greyhawk Grimoires II", by Robert S. Mullin. "Col" also appears in the history of the Hold of Stonefist whose founder was Vlek Col Vlekstad,a bandit of Rover origin. That would seem to conflict with "col" being an oeridian world.
3) "World of Greyhawk Fantasy Game Setting", p.79 Appendix 1: Royal & Noble Precedence & General Honorifics; Rhelt is shown to be equivalent to King though no rulers in the this source use that title. In Dragon #57, p.13 From the Sorceror's Scroll: Developments from Stonefist to South Province, by Gary Gygax, it is stated that in 578 CY the Master of the Hold of Stonefist convinced his chieftains to grant him the hereditary title of Rhelt. This seems to have been a concession to the Hold's population descended from the Flannish Colten peoples, so it's easy to assume that Rhelt is a Flannish title. Lady Rhalta of All Elvenkind is one of the titles Yolande of Celene was granted by the Grand Court of that land after the Hateful Wars - Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, p. 40. Since the text indicates that up to this point Yolande was titled as a Princess and afterward was a Queen we might be led to believe that Rhalta is elvish for Queen. Given their similarity this begs the question of whether the titles of Rhelt and Rhalta might be of common linguistic origin. To further muddy the waters lets add the Suel house name of Rhola.
4) Dragon #230, p.8 "The Orbs of Dragonkind", by Roger E. Moore [/b]
thrideen - "third-eye" was presumably the nickname of the Emperor Ubrond of the house of Neheli.
Interestingly, TSB gives thri=three and deen=eye. I'm not a linguist, but it would seem odd that thri would equate to "three" and "third," without any changes. Perhaps, in Suloise, a number is not changed when it denotes a count ("third"), at least as long as it is used as a prefix attached to a noun. Something for me to consider when / if I ever work out Suloise grammar, etc.
smillan_31 wrote:
"Col" also appears in the history of the Hold of Stonefist whose founder was Vlek Col Vlekstad,a bandit of Rover origin. That would seem to conflict with "col" being an oeridian world.
It could be that "col" was borrowed. This type of thing happens all the time.
smillan_31 wrote:
Rhelt is shown to be equivalent to King though no rulers in the this source use that title. In Dragon #57, p.13 From the Sorceror's Scroll: Developments from Stonefist to South Province, by Gary Gygax, it is stated that in 578 CY the Master of the Hold of Stonefist convinced his chieftains to grant him the hereditary title of Rhelt. This seems to have been a concession to the Hold's population descended from the Flannish Colten peoples, so it's easy to assume that Rhelt is a Flannish title. Lady Rhalta of All Elvenkind is one of the titles Yolande of Celene was granted by the Grand Court of that land after the Hateful Wars - Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, p. 40. Since the text indicates that up to this point Yolande was titled as a Princess and afterward was a Queen we might be led to believe that Rhalta is elvish for Queen. Given their similarity this begs the question of whether the titles of Rhelt and Rhalta might be of common linguistic origin. To further muddy the waters lets add the Suel house name of Rhola.
I really like the puzzle this presents. It's something we'll have to explore over time, but I like it :)
Two new ones from the Cold Tongue. Source is The Adventure Begins.
p. 22 "To resolve a long-standing tribal conflict, Sevvord (Redbeard) essentially introduced feudalism to the Hold. He had himself declared Rhelt ("king" in the Cold Tongue), and his own position and those of his Atamen were made hereditary."
A blow to my speculation about Rhelt being Flan and Elven in origin although who knows. The Rhizian Suel probably did have to absorb some of the native culture (presumably Flan) to adapt to their new home so Rhelt could be a loanword from those Flan although not used by Flan people anymore.
p. 10 "Many names have been given to this land (Hyperboria), with High Boros ("boros"means "north" in the Cold Tongue) being most common, though it varies in form (Hi-Boros Hy-Bora, Hibore, Hybrea, Hyborre, and so on)
Skrellingshald (Tostenhca) featured in the Greyhawk Advetures hardback is presumably named by the Thillonrian barbarians after the people who inhabited it (Just to hammer home the Flan identification with American Indians). Working from this it's a safe bet that Skrelling="Flan" in the Cold Tongue. "Hald" we can guess to be citadel, fortress or something similar. I believe others have alluded to this eslewhere.
All interesting stuff. Part of my work involves historical linguistics, so if I can find some spare time I'll chip in with my ten cents.
One issue we have to think about is whether the names and words as presented in the source material are supposed to be the actual languages, or 'translations' of the real thing. For example in Middle Earth, the Rohirrim didn't actually speak Old English, that was how their language was 'rendered' in the books, similarly the common/westron speech was represented as modern english.
This isn't an issue when we have 'fantasy names' which don't mean anything, but is perhaps significant when we see elements taken from real Earth languages. When we see titles like 'Herzog' are we imagining the actual Oeridian languages (or whatever) are like German? Or are their 'real' names being represented by words of German (or whatever language, e.g. a Bakluni title is being represented in the source material by 'Khan'). An interesting example is Ket, as we all know it's supposed to be a mix of east and west and the ruler is called 'Beygraf', an odd mix of Turkish 'Bey' and German 'Graf'. Similarly despite this business about Hyperboria being 'Hy + boros' in the cold tongue or some such we all know it's a Greek name latterly nabbed by Clark Ashton Smith and H.P. Lovecraft. One more example: as Smillan_31 just noted, Skrellinghald is really just Old Norse 'Skræling' (meaning 'native American', although in modern Icelandic it means 'barbarian') + 'hald' meaning 'hold, settlement'.
My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether these words are reprsenting something else. So many authors have worked on Greyhawk over the years there is not going to be that much linguistic consistency. Trying to make sense of these is part of the fun of making a self-consistent world.
Another possible Cold Tongue word, from Howl From the North, page 16:
"Kabloona Starskull is the barbarian chieftain. He received his first name because his skin and the whites of his eyes are unusually white, especially compared to the yellowed eyes and skin of the native northern folk."
So presumedly "kabloona" means "white," "fair," or something similar.
All interesting stuff. Part of my work involves historical linguistics, so if I can find some spare time I'll chip in with my ten cents.
One issue we have to think about is whether the names and words as presented in the source material are supposed to be the actual languages, or 'translations' of the real thing. For example in Middle Earth, the Rohirrim didn't actually speak Old English, that was how their language was 'rendered' in the books, similarly the common/westron speech was represented as modern english.
*snip*
My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether these words are reprsenting something else. So many authors have worked on Greyhawk over the years there is not going to be that much linguistic consistency. Trying to make sense of these is part of the fun of making a self-consistent world.
I've been working on this a little lately, trying to relate the various and widespread germanic and germanic-sounding place names to one culture. I'm favoring Flan since the most prevalent seem to be in Perrenland. The place names in the Pomarj could be survivals from the Flan who originally dwelt there that were adopted by later settlers. The names in the Suel barbarian states could be explained by the "Flan admixture" in the Cold Tongue, although that is some pretty strong admixture, considering almost every word we've seen so far has a Flan root.
I've recently created a few pages on the wiki for specific languages, where I've included glossaries--x to English & English to x (thanks for your additions, Rip!). Feel free to expand what is currently there!
Actually, I think that your relations to the "drachen" words are spot on! I've pretty much made the same assupmotions for a while now. While I was reading the thread, in fact, when I saw "Ker", I said aloud to myself, "that sounds like the old Celtic/Gaelic 'caer'." And when the "kopf" came up ... I would undoubtedly say that it would mean "Dragon's HEad Mountain" ... or something along those lines.
Great job everyone! I love the linguistics being studied here, and it makes for wonderful setting information and even a little extrapolation for our own works ...
Speaking of our own works, when I have written (or am writing) for postfests, i usr several different Gypsy dialects that I conglomerate into the Rhopan language.
Bardinar means "Glaive of Victory" in Old Oeridian, according to Dragon #293, page 93. Since the weapon with this name is an axe, though, not a glaive as such, the real meaning might be more general.
"In its rage, Harak col Hakul Deshaun - as the Oeridians later named the dragon, which loosely translates to “he who comes with fire and fury” - rampaged across the countryside, destroying anyone it found."
I'm not sure how to break that down. Presumedly, though, "Harak" is "he who comes," "col" is "with," "Hakul" is fire and "Deshaun" is fury.
"In its rage, Harak col Hakul Deshaun - as the Oeridians later named the dragon, which loosely translates to “he who comes with fire and fury” - rampaged across the countryside, destroying anyone it found."
I'm not sure how to break that down. Presumedly, though, "Harak" is "he who comes," "col" is "with," "Hakul" is fire and "Deshaun" is fury.
rasgon, how do you think that translation jibes with the name Vlek Col Vlekzed? I could see col serving as either "comes with" or "comes from," perhaps.
How did I miss this?! Did anything ever come of this?
Woesinger wrote:
..."Ker" appears in Ivid in the name of Ker Bazainn, a castle/fortress in the South Province. I've taken it to be Old Oeridian for fort/castle/fortress/hold.
-In Suel, "Ker" means brave, CallmeAndyDammit points out. South Province has a heavy Suel background.
ephealy wrote:
smillan_31 wrote:
"Col" also appears in the history of the Hold of Stonefist whose founder was Vlek Col Vlekstad,a bandit of Rover origin. That would seem to conflict with "col" being an oeridian world.
It could be that "col" was borrowed. This type of thing happens all the time.
-Could also be a false cognate. There are only so many ways to pronounce stuff.
rasgon wrote:
..."In its rage, Harak col Hakul Deshaun - as the Oeridians later named the dragon, which loosely translates to “he who comes with fire and fury” - rampaged across the countryside, destroying anyone it found."
I'm not sure how to break that down. Presumedly, though, "Harak" is "he who comes," "col" is "with," "Hakul" is fire and "Deshaun" is fury.
-Could be a loose translation of "He who comes with Furious Fire." Word order is a tricky thing. Do adjectives in Oeridian follow or preced the noun they modify?
[quote="DMPrata"]
rasgon wrote:
rasgon, how do you think that translation jibes with the name Vlek Col Vlekzed? I could see col serving as either "comes with" or "comes from," perhaps.
-"Son of" like "Mc/Mac", or "Ibn," or "Ben."
Efnisien wrote:
...My opinion is that it doesn't matter whether these words are reprsenting something else. So many authors have worked on Greyhawk over the years there is not going to be that much linguistic consistency. Trying to make sense of these is part of the fun of making a self-consistent world.
-Sometimes, trying to retcon sense out of nonsense leads you to bigger and better things. Of course, it could just lead to bigger nonsense...
I like your translation of "col" as "son of" or "descendant of." It's an interesting idea.
Since this thread originally appeared I've changed my thinking on germanic sounding words being related to Flan and changed it to Suloise. Most of the places where these occur had at least a decent amount of Suel influence and settlement. Perrenland is the only outlier, and a considerable one, having an ethnic composition of OFsb, but language is a weird thing, so who knows what influence even a Suloise minority could have had in Perrenland's early history? Given how obviously Scandinavian the names among the northern Barbarians are, I felt I had to go this way. Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. One fun result of this was roleplaying some Schnai patrons speaking a few lines of "Fruz" derived from slightly altered German, Anglo-Saxon and Old Norse, and delivered in a Swedish chef accent. Likewise, Old Oeridian sounds like Latin. Speakers from nations that are primarily Oeridian culturally, have accents ranging from French to Portuguese and Italian.
I like your translation of "col" as "son of" or "descendant of." It's an interesting idea...
-It could also be a clan name Col = Col-Ten? Which could be related to Tenh, i.e. Col-Tenh? I have no idea where that could go...
jamesdglick wrote:
...Sometimes, trying to retcon sense out of nonsense leads you to bigger and better things. Of course, it could just lead to bigger nonsense...
...I think the "son of" is better. But then we have to explain what seems to be his personal name, "Vlek" with "Vlekzed." Maybe "Zed" is an honorific? "Zed" also means "Zero" in some English dialects, but that would be hard to fit as an honorific. Maybe "Zero" = "Negation" = "Destroyer"?
smillan_31 wrote:
...Since this thread originally appeared I've changed my thinking on germanic sounding words being related to Flan and changed it to Suloise...
-I thought that Drachsengrab (analyzed elsewhere) was specifically mentioned as being Flann, but maybe the source meant "translated into Suel from the original Flann"? But yeah, for over 20 years I've equated "Suel" with "Germanic", even though it has the downside of following the "Suel = Nazis" thing.
smillan_31 wrote:
...Likewise, Old Oeridian sounds like Latin. Speakers from nations that are primarily Oeridian culturally, have accents ranging from French to Portuguese and Italian.
-IIRC, Greyhawk Wars even uses "sic transit gloria mundi" as Oeridian.
In my reply to DMPrata above, I translated "Col" as "blood of," but "son of" may be more likely, since I don't think there's any reason to think Oeridian isn't a gendered language. Maybe Harak col Hakul Deshaun is literally the son of an older dragon called Hakul Deshaun ("Fiery Fury"), or maybe it was meant figuratively, so that Harak is figuratively what you get when fire and fury combine. That's still hard to break down, though, since "He Who Comes" is a pretty terribly generic name to give anyone if it's supposed to function independently of his surname. It's easier to just ignore the translation and say it was a dragon named Harak, son of Hakul Deshaun and not worry about what the names are supposed to mean. Something like "Fire, son of Fiery Fury" might work if "Hakul" is the adjective form of "Harak," but that seems like a stretch.
I don't think it's that impossible that a Rover bandit might have an Oeridian name. He was an outcast among his people and might have adopted an Oeridian name while living among mixed-race bandits in the Bandit Kingdoms.
Jamesdglick wrote:
-It could also be a clan name Col = Col-Ten? Which could be related to Tenh, i.e. Col-Tenh? I have no idea where that could go...
I've always assumed that Tenh, Coltens, and Tostenca share a common root.
Perhaps the Col- in "Coltens" is related to the Cal- in "Calbut."
Quote:
But then we have to explain what seems to be his personal name, "Vlek" with "Vlekzed.
Vlekzed could just be a longer form of the same name, like Rob, son of Robert or Greg, son of Gregory. It could be that Vlekzed had several sons, all given variations of his name in order to tell them apart: Vlek, Vlekzed Junior, Vlekky, and Vlekman, as well as his daughters Vlekka and Vlekkana.
Quote:
-I thought that Drachsengrab (analyzed elsewhere) was specifically mentioned as being Flann, but maybe the source meant "translated into Suel from the original Flann"?
This is what the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer says on the subject:
...it was eventually settled by small numbers of Suel who were unwelcome elsewhere and had no choice but to contend with the harsh terrain and its inhabitants. They called these heights the Suenha, until they learned from the Flan their original name: the Drachensgrabs, literally the Tomb of the Dragon.
I guess you could interpret that as "We were calling these hills/mountains the Suenha Mountains but the Flan tell us they're properly the Tomb of the Dragon so we'll start calling it the Tomb of the Dragon in our language, just in case the dragon gets mad." Or, perhaps more likely, they might have learned the name of the Drachensgrabs from Flan priests of the Earth Dragon, and changed the name they referred to it by when they adopted the Earth Dragon faith. But yeah, they might have translated the name to Suel, thinking the meaning was more important than the language.
Quote:
-IIRC, Greyhawk Wars even uses "sic transit gloria mundi" as Oeridian.
That's from the From the Ashes introduction, and what it says is "sic transit gloria mundi (or its Oeridian equivalent)," which suggests that the phrase in Oeridian isn't identical.
For what it's worth, the 3rd edition sourcebook Libris Mortis claims its title comes from a bastardized form of Celestial no longer used by living creatures. Libris Mortis isn't exactly a Greyhawk supplement, but a few Greyhawk deities get name-dropped in it, so I might as well list the various book names from that supplement:
Libris Mortis, a bastardized title of a document written in Celestial by a cleric of Pelor, roughly translated as "From the Books of Dead." the Giant in the Playground forum discusses the quality of the Latin here. I suppose Oeridian could be partially descended from Celestial. Celestial might also be the liturgical language of Veluna, since their sacred book, The Word of Incarum, was supposedly written by a literal angel, and it might have influenced the local Oeridian dialects spoken there.
Maie Firvain is an Elven book meaning "Beyond Death."
Tsabal Gulstrae is a drow book meaning "Weavers of the Dark Void."
Thrakharaktor is a Dwarvish book meaning “The Book of Dark and Restless Souls."
The infamous Necronomicon is mentioned, described as a human book meaning The Book of the Dead, though I think Book of Dead Names is a better translation.
...I don't think it's that impossible that a Rover bandit might have an Oeridian name. He was an outcast among his people and might have adopted an Oeridian name while living among mixed-race bandits in the Bandit Kingdoms...
-IIRC, Stonefisters are a pretty hodgepodge bunch anyway.
rasgon wrote:
I've always assumed that Tenh, Coltens, and Tostenca share a common root...
-The first time I ever saw "Tostenca," (Jim Ward's Greyhawk Adventures?), I thought the same thing, but the possibility of "Col-Ten" only occurred to me after trying to make the "col" connection. That would make them "son of the Ten", whatever "Ten(h)" means.
rasgon wrote:
...Perhaps the Col- in "Coltens" is related to the Cal- in "Calbut."...
...could be.
rasgon wrote:
Vlekzed could just be a longer form of the same name, like Rob, son of Robert or Greg, son of Gregory. It could be that Vlekzed had several sons, all given variations of his name in order to tell them apart: Vlek, Vlekzed Junior, Vlekky, and Vlekman, as well as his daughters Vlekka and Vlekkana...
-Could be. I resisted that because who would name their son by a dimunitive, but that's just me thinking like me instead of a Stonefist warlord...
rasgon wrote:
...they might have learned the name of the Drachensgrabs from Flan priests of the Earth Dragon, and changed the name they referred to it by when they adopted the Earth Dragon faith. But yeah, they might have translated the name to Suel, thinking the meaning was more important than the language...
-That's where I was going. So what did "Suenha" mean? Anything in Scarlet Brotherhood? "Sue-nha" and "Sue-l" = "Sue-" root?
rasgon wrote:
...That's from the From the Ashes introduction, and what it says is "sic transit gloria mundi (or its Oeridian equivalent)," which suggests that the phrase in Oeridian isn't identical...
-Hazards of doing stuff off the top of my head...
rasgon wrote:
... I suppose Oeridian could be partially descended from Celestial...
It does imply that Oeridian is Oerth's equivalent to Latin, though.
Quote:
So what did "Suenha" mean? Anything in Scarlet Brotherhood? "Sue-nha" and "Sue-l" = "Sue-" root?
There's nothing like "suenha," "sue," "en," "suen," "nha," or "ha" in The Scarlet Brotherhood's dictionary, but WG7 mentions an ancient Suel city called Suendrako, which combines the "suen" root with a word that looks like it could be a cognate of "drachen."
Oerth Journal #1 consistently misspelled "Suel" as "Seul" and translated "Se-Ul" as "People of Ul," without defining what "Ul" meant. Oerth Journal #11 fixed the spelling of Suel and tells us the Suloise word for "flying monster," first used to describe a being that appears to have been Bahamut, is "draggonus." Which I guess could be another cognate of drako/drachen; with over 5,000 years of history, the ancient Suel language doubtless spawned a lot of dialects and variants.
Anyway, su- is a prefix used with both su-monsters and su-doppelgangers, and it seems likely (although The Scarlet Brotherhood doesn't define it) that it means something along the lines of "people," with the implication that these monsters were partly human, and partly Suloise at that. El might have simply been an ancient settlement in what is now the Sea of Dust, or it might have meant God, as it does in Hebrew. In Kryptonian, it means "of the star". I can imagine that Suen is simply a dialectical variant of Suel/Suloise, like the -sul in Gradsul. Honestly, I suspect Suenha Hills is just a dialectical way of saying the Suel Hills.
Incidentally, I think Gradsul means City of the Suel, with grad having the same meaning it does in Russian. I don't know what Niole Dra means, but I think Niole is a cognate of Neheli.
Great stuff as usual, Rasgon. If one were to assume Germanic place names are derived from or are at least symbolic of Suloise, perhaps similarly to how Tolkien "translated" Westron into English, would you have any theories about all the Suloise-derived place names in Perrenland?
Well, Oerth Journal #1 has a Suel lich and his followers fleeing to the Yatils way back in 900 SD/-4616 CY, founding (or, more likely in my mind, reestablishing) the Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. WG4 has the clerics eventually slipping away with their pilfered wealth "to serve other gods and wreck evil elsewhere," so you could end up with a substantial Suloise population, all of them ambitious evil clerics, in the 900s SD entering the lowlands southwest of Lake Quag and conquering its Flan communities, conceivably leaving their marks on some of the place names. That may be a bit far back in history, but worth keeping in mind as a possibility. This migration could be set later in history, or there could have been more than one wave.
The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer mentions Oeridian, Suloise, and Baklunish invaders entering the Wyrm's Tail Pass, though they were supposed to have been mostly absorbed by the Flan. Still, the Suel could have left some names behind, in the same way that immigrants have left placenames behind in the United States before being absorbed by the English-speaking population.
If Perrenland's placenames are predominantly Suel-derived, though, you pretty much have to postulate a period in which the Suel dominated the region. They don't have to be the majority of the population, but they need to have established themselves as rulers for a time before being usurped by other groups. Again, a wave of wicked clerics, flush with loot and with no faith in the god of entropy holding them back, might be a fairly good explanation. I suppose there could have been a wave of exiled Suel Firstcomer houses driven out of Keoland by the Rhola and Neheli, and then driven further to the north by the Oeridians of Ferrond to take refuge in the Quaglands. Consider that House Schwartzenbruin once ruled the Niole Dra region, a Suel House who migrated over the Harsh Pass before the Rain of Colorless Fire, determined to establish a new Suel empire under the flag of the black bear before the black lion of the Neheli flushed them out. Even when the Viceroyalty of Ferrond conquered the Quaglands, the legacy of House Schwartzenbruin remained.
For my study of the Olman culture in Greyhawk World, I collected all official Olman language words. For aid to your research, here are those words which have provided a definition.
The books and magazines all contain other words also, but these are proper names for people, gods and places for which no literal definition is provided. Many of these words can be defined by a student of Nahuatl or Kiche, but I have the decision to only give words with official definition.
The Scarlet Brotherhood:
New Languages:
Etlani - Olman-Touv hybrid tongue spoken in parts of Hepmonaland.
Rasol - Language of the Amedi Suloise people, a hybrid of mostly Ancient Suloise with Olman names for creatures, plantlife and locations in the Amedio.
Ralat - A trade language of Hepmonaland, derived from Ancient Suloise, Touc and Olman tongues
Tlaman - A variant of Olman with minor Touv influences spoken by Yuan-Ti
Xolasa - A variant of Rasol, more strongly influenced by the Olman tongue
Defined Words:
Xamolatatl (Olman & Tlaman) n "Home of the People". A local name for Hepmonaland
Etli (Olman) v "Powerful"
Chetanicatla (Olman) n "Land of the Eye God". A nation-state in the Amedio.
Tlokasazotz (olman) n "Bat-Vampire (Unique Creature)"
C1 - The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Defined Words:
Tamoachan (Olman) n "The Home Sought After"
Chicomoztoc (Olman) n "The Place of Seven Caves"
Tloques-Popolicas (Olman) n "Master of the Outsiders"
Yohualli-Ehecatl (Olman) n "He who is Like the Wind and the Night"
Cemanahuac (Olman) n "The Place Entirely Surrounded by Water"
Tecuziztecatl (Olman) n "The Lord of Snails"
Hurakan (Olman) n "God of the Flood"
Zotzilaha (Olman) n "Bat-God of the Underworld"
Nacehual (Olman) n "The Achieved Ones"
Nanhuatcin (Olman) n "The Pimply One" or "The Sun"
Pelota (Olman) n "Ball Game"
Coatlicue (Olman) n "The Serpent Skirted"
Xipe (Olman) n "Our Lord of the Flayed Skins"
Xilonen (Olman) n "The Hairy Mother Goddess of Corn"
Kukulkan (Olman) n "The Feathered Serpent"
Tezcatlipocas (Olman) n "The Smoking Mirrors"
Mictlan (Olman) n "Land of the Dead"
Tlazoteotl (Olman) n "Mother Goddess of the Earth"
Chitza-Atlan (Olman) n "The Guardian of the Gateway to the Underworld"
Nahual (Olman) n "Alter Ego"
Guesa (Olman) n "Chosen of the Sky Gods"
Dungeon Issue 141 - Savage Tide - The Sea Wyvern's Wake
Defined Words:
Tchechiwhani (Olman) n "Basilisk"
Dungeon Issue 142 - Savage Tide - Tides of Dread
Defined Words:
Nextepeua (Olman) n "He Who Rains Ashes"
Dungeon Issue 145 - Savage Tide - City of Broken Idols
Defined Words:
Thanaclan (Olman) n "Land of the Pearl"
Dragon 351 - The Ecology of the Isle of Dread
Defined Words:
Cualoco Zacatl (Olman) n "Angry Grass"
Dragon 352 - Savage Tidings - Braving the Isle of Dread
Defined Words:
Kahiko (Olman) n An Olman Martial Art Style Combining Armed and Unarmed attack and defense forms
Dragon 353 - Savage Tidings - Advancing the Wyvern
Defined Words:
Samatir (Olman) n A tree native to the Isle of Dread that yields a strong but extremely light wood _________________ Paz y luz,
Lupe
Defined Words:
Xamolatatl (Olman & Tlaman) n "Home of the People". A local name for Hepmonaland
Etli (Olman) v "Powerful"
Chetanicatla (Olman) n "Land of the Eye God". A nation-state in the Amedio.
Tlokasazotz (olman) n "Bat-Vampire (Unique Creature)"
C1 - The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan
Defined Words:
Tamoachan (Olman) n "The Home Sought After"
Chicomoztoc (Olman) n "The Place of Seven Caves"
Tloques-Popolicas (Olman) n "Master of the Outsiders"
Yohualli-Ehecatl (Olman) n "He who is Like the Wind and the Night"
Cemanahuac (Olman) n "The Place Entirely Surrounded by Water"
Tecuziztecatl (Olman) n "The Lord of Snails"
Hurakan (Olman) n "God of the Flood"
Zotzilaha (Olman) n "Bat-God of the Underworld"
Nacehual (Olman) n "The Achieved Ones"
Nanhuatcin (Olman) n "The Pimply One" or "The Sun"
Pelota (Olman) n "Ball Game"
Coatlicue (Olman) n "The Serpent Skirted"
Xipe (Olman) n "Our Lord of the Flayed Skins"
Xilonen (Olman) n "The Hairy Mother Goddess of Corn"
Kukulkan (Olman) n "The Feathered Serpent"
Tezcatlipocas (Olman) n "The Smoking Mirrors"
Mictlan (Olman) n "Land of the Dead"
Tlazoteotl (Olman) n "Mother Goddess of the Earth"
Chitza-Atlan (Olman) n "The Guardian of the Gateway to the Underworld"
Nahual (Olman) n "Alter Ego"
Guesa (Olman) n "Chosen of the Sky Gods"
Dungeon Issue 141 - Savage Tide - The Sea Wyvern's Wake
Defined Words:
Tchechiwhani (Olman) n "Basilisk"
Dungeon Issue 142 - Savage Tide - Tides of Dread
Defined Words:
Nextepeua (Olman) n "He Who Rains Ashes"
Dungeon Issue 145 - Savage Tide - City of Broken Idols
Defined Words:
Thanaclan (Olman) n "Land of the Pearl"
Dragon 351 - The Ecology of the Isle of Dread
Defined Words:
Cualoco Zacatl (Olman) n "Angry Grass"
Dragon 352 - Savage Tidings - Braving the Isle of Dread
Defined Words:
Kahiko (Olman) n An Olman Martial Art Style Combining Armed and Unarmed attack and defense forms
Dragon 353 - Savage Tidings - Advancing the Wyvern
Defined Words:
Samatir (Olman) n A tree native to the Isle of Dread that yields a strong but extremely light wood
For my study of the Olman culture in Greyhawk World, I collected all official Olman language words. For aid to your research, here are those words which have provided a definition.
Very nice work, Lupe! Also, welcome to Canonfire!
If you're interested in the Olman, and haven't found it already, you should check out the Olmanifesto website of the too-soon-departed Maria Oliva Deltorre. There's some really good stuff there.
If you're interested in the Olman, and haven't found it already, you should check out the Olmanifesto website of the too-soon-departed Maria Oliva Deltorre. There's some really good stuff there.
Yes, Maria was my aunt, and one who teach me D&D and Greyhawk :) _________________ Paz y luz,
Lupe
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