I don't understand about the banning of Heironeous' worship, particularly in Blackmoor.
I can see his worship being marginalized or even discouraged in the other regions, but if you ban the deity -- and by banning, mean supress all knowledge of -- then the followers of Hextor in those regions do not get to hear about Hextor's "stupid" brother and, by example, why evil is so much smarter...
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
Yak-Men always talk about their stupid siblings behind their backs...
The lack of open Heironean worship does nothing to downplay Hextor. It just means that the only perspective given on the matter is that of the church of Hextor(which probably has all kinds of stories in their books of faith regarding Heironeous, who likely is portrayed as an overly righteous and naively idealistic fool who always loses). The banning of the religion simply means that Heironeous is relegated to the status of "undesirable and illegal cult", similar to how the faithful of most evil faiths are forced to operate in good lands. It must also be apparent to some of those folks that Heironeous has some power (which might cause some folks to become curious about him) as he openly opposes Hextor and yet has not been destroyed.
I don't understand about the banning of Heironeous' worship, particularly in Blackmoor.
I can see his worship being marginalized or even discouraged in the other regions, but if you ban the deity -- and by banning, mean supress all knowledge of -- then the followers of Hextor in those regions do not get to hear about Hextor's "stupid" brother and, by example, why evil is so much smarter...
~Scott "-enkainen" Casper
Yak-Men always talk about their stupid siblings behind their backs...
Hextorians can just as easily tell their own tales of Hieroneous' arrogance and stupidity, and don't need to encourage people to think of themselves by letting them get their own knowledge of Hieroneous through his own teachings!
The religious bannings tie into one the larger goals I have with this series of articles. Many canon D&D priesthoods have their clerics acting less as actual clergy and priests, than as activists who pursue goals related to their god's activities. The only difference between a cleric and a lay person doing these things is that the cleric has spell powers. All that differs the cleric from a layperson is their spell power.
That's why I tried to make the religions deeper and extrapolate teachings about life in general, traits and actions that the god favors or views as sins, and things like that from the portfolios. I also added in variant sects and debates within the clergy itself for spice and RPing opportunities-after all, historically the Christian faith has been divided into many sects, with Catholics and Protestants being just two of them. Islam, for its part, is divided among Sunni and Shiite factions. Various dissident sects and orders, such as the Dominicans or the Franciscans, also popped up in the medieval church.
I wanted clerics to have special places in society-educating people, feeding the poor and sick, help them give birth, look after their health, perform marriages and funerals, do exorcisms, offer spiritual guidance to penitents, and everything in between. Most priestly roles as described in books like "Faiths and Avatars" and the LGG are jobs that laypersons could do perfectly well, and do not require a cleric's spell powers to carry out. There is, of course, also a section on adventuring clerics-who they can associate with, what kind of weapons and armor they can use, where they can travel, what actions are viewed as virtues or sins, what they must do with their treasure, etc.
I must say I am rather disappointed to see my Nerull article only got two stars. What was wrong with it? _________________ <div align="left">Going to war without Keoland is like going to war without a pipe organ. They both make a lot of noise and they're both a lot of dead weight, so what's the point in taking them along? </div>
Personally I'd just ignore the rating system. I know I do as a reader. I don't even know if my article got a rating.... Someone's bound to dislike what you wrote, there's far too many people at canonfire to not have that happen.
On the topics mentioned, I'm generally of the view that unless the god is utterly inimical and already destined to oppose your community, its a bad idea to ban the god's faith in an active way. Its just going to bring you the attention of the god (and followers) you want to avoid... Though I'd say the "evil" communities would be more likely to ban 'good' gods than the reverse.
I fully agree that clergy should have extensive civic involvement. The trick, imho, is not to fall into the trap of thinking each temple is a full service shop the way a monotheistic church is. (Which I haven't seen in your articles, but occurred to me reading the comments in your post above.) The temples of the gods aren't in the business of saving souls they way the Christian church is. They are in the business of honoring the gods. D&D is generally poor at making religions as opposed to collections of gods. GH at least has multiple pantheons as a natural part of its cosmology, even if it doesn't do much with them.
The one thing I disagree with your comment about the functions described being layperson stuff because they don't require the spellcasting powers of the clerics. IMHO, hardly any priests are clerics or other spell casting classes. Most are Commoners, experts, or aristocrats. The temple sorcerors (aka clerics) would be a special subset. They might or might not be the public leaders, though obviously they'd have a lot of influence behind the scenes at the very least.
Part of the reason I argue this is that I like to have high proportion of clergy that was historically present. And having that many people with spell casting capability...even if minor.. would really make GH a different place. IMHO, the clerics are to the regular priests the way the Jesuits were to the typical priests of the catholic church.
The one thing I disagree with your comment about the functions described being layperson stuff because they don't require the spellcasting powers of the clerics. IMHO, hardly any priests are clerics or other spell casting classes. Most are Commoners, experts, or aristocrats. The temple sorcerors (aka clerics) would be a special subset. They might or might not be the public leaders, though obviously they'd have a lot of influence behind the scenes at the very least.
Part of the reason I argue this is that I like to have high proportion of clergy that was historically present. And having that many people with spell casting capability...even if minor.. would really make GH a different place. IMHO, the clerics are to the regular priests the way the Jesuits were to the typical priests of the catholic church.
That's something I don't like myself. Although in many cases I try to go for a "medieval" feel in my articles, I have my limits. It's really hard for me to think of a character as "handsome" or "beautiful" when they don't bathe more than once a week, and would smell like a garbage scow if they were real.
I rather like the idea of low-level clerics using their spells to purify food and water so it's safe to drink, heal poor peoples' injuries and help them give birth, and generally serve as doctors helping out the poor. Midwives and barbers take care of a lot of the mundane work, but poor people are more likely to have difficulty, so the clerics of many good religions will act to help them out with their healing and purifying spells.
This has a very tangible benefit for the church-novices gain experience and the chance to put the deity's teachings into practice, and the people have a genuine motivation to convert and believe, since there's fairly obvious proof that the god is real (by granting them spells; it's how Jesus convinced a lot of naysayers that He was the real deal), and they can see the benefits they get if they join the faith. Clerics gain converts by actively being involved in helping the poor!
Well, things like European lack of hygiene don't need to make it into the game. That's a cultural thing, not a technology thing. Plenty of cultures with 'fantasy suituable' technology levels were capable of bathing properly. There's no reason the Oeridians need to have that particular trait.
Anyway... Its just my feeling that if you have that many spell casters around, you have a hard time maintaining the quasi-middle ages feel to Greyhawk. Because I can just see the knock on effects spilling all over the culture.... The single biggest "problem" in fantasy world design is not thinking through the implications of the magic used. It needs to be rare or otherwise limited or it needs to be thoroughly integrated into the world's day to day ways of doing things. That's the biggest turn off about the FR for me: there are spell casters on every corner, yet it doens't matter at all... GH (on the 'relatively rare/limited' side and Ebberon (on the fully integrated side) both appeal to me more.
And yes, I /do/ know that GH isn't low magic on the Harn or Middle Earth pattern. But its a place where you feel like you can name all the archmages in the Flanaess fairly easily and there just isn't enough wizardry around for it to be commoditized...
Well, things like European lack of hygiene don't need to make it into the game. That's a cultural thing, not a technology thing. Plenty of cultures with 'fantasy suituable' technology levels were capable of bathing properly. There's no reason the Oeridians need to have that particular trait.
Anyway... Its just my feeling that if you have that many spell casters around, you have a hard time maintaining the quasi-middle ages feel to Greyhawk. Because I can just see the knock on effects spilling all over the culture.... The single biggest "problem" in fantasy world design is not thinking through the implications of the magic used. It needs to be rare or otherwise limited or it needs to be thoroughly integrated into the world's day to day ways of doing things. That's the biggest turn off about the FR for me: there are spell casters on every corner, yet it doens't matter at all... GH (on the 'relatively rare/limited' side and Ebberon (on the fully integrated side) both appeal to me more.
And yes, I /do/ know that GH isn't low magic on the Harn or Middle Earth pattern. But its a place where you feel like you can name all the archmages in the Flanaess fairly easily and there just isn't enough wizardry around for it to be commoditized...
Oh, I agree, as you'll know from reading my other posts on the subject. I just figure that the clerics who do all the street work are 1st to 3rd-level clerics, powerful enough to help the peasants survive, but not powerful enough to single-handedly defeat an overwhelming army. Most of them will never progress beyond that level, of course!
And, as in real life, there just aren't enough resources, even magical spells, to make life all sunshine and rainbows. Life is still very hard, and not everyone has what it takes to join the clergy...
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
