... and a head of state (at some point) who was able to rally the populace behind the cause of bigotry - something that survived the fall of the glorious empirium.
uhh, no not really. The Scarlet Brotherhood is a supremacist organization, obviously. But there's nothing really to indicate the rest of the Suel are bigoted per se. They are often deceitful, corrupt, nasty, overbearing, and so on. The Scarlet Brotherhood bailed on the Empire before its destruction. There is certainly nothing to indicate its views dominated the Empire.
As far as governance goes, not much is said anywhere that could be termed "official". There seems to be a pretty solid structure of "houses" or clans. But its not clear what extent they mattered politically.
Derfelca, there really isn't that much. While researching the Baklunish Empire, I came across some hints as to the structure of the Suel Imperium. However, they weren't my focus so I didn't... well, focus on them.
If you really want to know about them I'd suggest using Zavoda's index to look up everything you can about the Imperium. Once you have all the quotes, put them all together in a usable format. My guess is that you'll have precious little about the government itself.
But, if you accept my challenge make sure you post what you find in here so we can all share in your glory!
Little has been done on the actual system of governance in the Suel Imperium. Some info is hinted at by gygax in Sea of Death, but not much. From what I recall, and as rasgon suggested, there is an emperor/empress and a governing body beneath them- a senate or council. From what else has been written, the mages of power certainly lived up to their name not only in regard to their magical might but in regard to their political influence. The council/senate seems to have been made up at least in part by the Mages of Power, while some of the clergy might also have held seats in the senate/council. This is in addition to other citizens of prominence such as heads of noble houses, guilds, etc.- you know, all those folks who's main goal is to look out for all of the little people. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The Imperium didn't hold much love in its heart for the people to the north.
Yeah, but so what? Its perfectly possible to have long lasting feuds and hatreds without it being motivated by racism. Unless you stretch the usage of bigotry to the point of irrelevance, where it defines pretty much all human interrelations...
THere is nothing to support the idea that the Suel were more bigoted than any other group of humans.
While every society sadly has some racist members; it is clear that "suel superiority" was an accepted belief within the imperium. The SB maybe the exterme example of the doctrine but their was a lesser general xenophobia among the nobles and populace about the barbarians polluting the impressive culture of the suel.
The facts give the impression of an advanced stagnant but decaying empire convined of its own superiority but determined to exclude the outside to defend its accomplishments.
I think some are too quick to throw down the "racist card" on a society. (Both in game, and in the out of game world, but I'll stick with in game here, but I will be using out of game examples to illustrate my point.)
Isn't it possible that the "Suel Superiority" attitude attribute to the old Imperium was simply national pride? The Romans thought they were better than everyone; to them everyone else were just barbarians. The Chinese and Japanese held that attitude too. The British, the French, the Americans...all hold that attitude. (I'm using a generalization here, but for a game, it works.) Most people think their nation is the best. Does than mean they are all racists by default?
As for the Scarlet Brotherhood, I don't see them as necessarily representing the will of the whole Suel nation. After all, they LEFT the Imperium for a reason, didn't they? And who says everyone in the Brotherhood is necessarily a Suloise supremacist? To use a real world example, many Germans in the 1930s and 40s didn't really believe in all of Hitler's claptrap; they just talked the talked because it was the only way to avoid persecution and/or other reprisals.
I realize this doesn't answer the topic question, about the government of the Suel Imperium, but since others set the precedent of talking about the culture, I decided to add my thoughts.
Now, as someone else posted, I can see them as somewhat like the Roman Empire in government. And then, possibly they also had the same mindset of "We are civilized; all others are barbarians." the Romans had.
The LGG has some info on the ruling system, which is mainly composed of powerful noble families usually ruled by powerful wizards(Mages of Power). The Arcanamach entry in Complete Arcane also states this, as these PrC's were trained in secret guilds sponsored by each family to produce guardians/protectors/assassins to use against the other noble houses.
FTA: AotF(p. 12)- "The Suloise are the most jealous of their pure bloodedness,..."
There is the Scarlet Brotherhood tendency for racism. The Suel still retain a level of aloofness and tend to be opinionated. The Suel Imperium is characterized as cruel, with a definite superiority complex. There certainly is at the very least a sense of racial superiority.
BlueWitch brings up the example of the Roman Empire, which quite a few people identify the Suel Imperium with. I tend to identify it with the Byzantine Empire instead (mainly in regard to the modes of dress, and a few other oddball things). Irregardless, the Suel Imperium seems to have been mostly Suel, with only a very small portion of the populace being non-Suel or even non human, other than for humanoid slave troops and servants. The main difference between the Roman Empire and the Suel Imperium is that whereas the Roman Empire was populated by disparate groups of varied peoples, the Suel Imperium does not appear to be so.
The simple tendency of modern Suel to regard their own blood lines as being more superior the more pure they are, and mind you this is after centuries of intermixing with the other human races, its very easy to make the leap to a more archaic and concentrated view, which is of course is racism. Certainly there must have been a high level of nationalism in the Suel Imperium, as in any major state, and when combined with an inborn sense of Suel superiority and a penchant for a level of cruelty that some Suel continue to be known for, it is easy to see how anybody could peg the Suel Imperium as racist, or at the very least have multiple societal levels based on racial purity. And who would enforce this societal norm? Why, all of those noble families who hold power and base their superiority over the other noble families based on the racial purity of their own families. The Scarlet Brotherhood is certainly a fanatical extremist group, but they are probably not too far off from what the original Suel were like to begin with. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The existance of the Scarlet Brotherhood alone is enough to justify that FtA quote. From the Ashes also goes on to say that Suel are more concerned about such things because they are the most obviously different and because of the tendency for them "to have been driven out of the main Flanaess Lands (by the Oeridians in particular)." And it says that while the SB is racist, such opinions are rare except in a very few places. The best modern example being the Tenh's emphasis of Flan-ness.
It seems to me that there is little reason to consider the Suel *more* racist or xenophobic than anyone else. A lot of them (like the Maures) were cruel, conniving, and generally bad news. And they were justly persecuted as a result. They were also a slave based society. But they cross breed as much or more than anyone else. There's references to the Neheli and the elves. The Suel created the derro from human stock as well as other races. Some of the Maures are obviously semi human. With the exception of the Scarlet Brotherhood and those groups driven into the wastes by the Oeridians, the Suel are just as intermingled in the Flanaess as everyone else.
I think that folks are taking the Scarlet Brotherhood and extrapolating backwards to the Suel in general from that, wrongly. The Suel were cruel, selfish, and arrogant. But I don't think there is any reason to believe that the arrogance was attributable to a greater sense of racial pride than that possessed by every other ethnic group in the Flanaess (and the real world, for that matter).
Oerth history rather implies that every ethnic group was monolithic until the Cataclysms forced them to mingle in the Flanaess. That's quite likely total rubbish and a result of vast oversimplification on the part of folks who are, after all, summarizing 5000 years of history in 3-5 pages.
The FtA quote was applied to the Suel in general, and shortly thereafter the racism of the Scarlet Brotherhood is specifically addressed. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
We can all assume that Gygax, Sargent and SKR all have different views on what the Suel and the Scarlet Brotherhood is all about, what makes them tick as it were. We can either pick which version we like, try to mix and blend the material into a coherent wholeness or see it as different truths or views from several times/perspectives. IMO it's best to go with whatever works best for your own campaign.
IMO there must be something that makes the magic-heavy ancient empire of the Suel unable to defeat the Baklunish, perhaps even being bested by the dark-skinned northerners. Rather than giving the Baklunish even more awesome and kewl powers I find it more appealing to find an internal flaw that undoes the evil/tyranny of the Suel. Therefore in my campaign the Suel have grown complacent, insular, lethargic and bound up in rituals, ceremony and strict hierarchies. They haven't discovered or conquered any new lands for centuries, deeming all other territories as inherently inferior. They have slowed down magical and technical progress to a standstill. There probably hasn't come a new Mage of Power for a long time and they are the product of an age long past. In contrast to this empire in decline the Baklunish is spreading around the Suloise empire gaining new lands, new people, new magic and more power. The Suel are stagnant and the Baklunish are on the rise.
Perhaps it is the bleak knowledge that the Suel cannot beat the Baklunish that drive them to resort to cataclysmic weaponry?
Finally, believing one's own people to be better than all others as a matter of truth and principle is racist in effect. Being racist doesn't mean that you have to enslave others or treat them worse than others. Racism is a matter of opinon not action even though the former may lead to the latter. _________________ Never say blip-blip to a kuo-tua
The point is that the quote does not say that the Suel are the racists of GH. It says that they were the most concerned about such things *probably because they suffered race based oppression and forcible expulsion from most of the Flanaess. So with the exception of the Maure led Urnstans (of ever changing ethnic mixing from book to book), the vast majority of folks who even think of themselves as Suel are almost exclusively Suel (namely the Thillonrillian barbarians and Sharrans. Plus a few islander groups).
Elsewhere it says that the Oeridians were arrogant and overbearing and alienated everyone, but the Suel were just so vile (lying, stealing, murdering, etc) that folks eventually allied with the Oeridians as the lesser evil. And the Tenha are Flan purists.
My point isn't that the Suel are happy bastions of tolerance. That's obviously untrue. But FtA does not support the idea that some sort of racial supremacy theory was widespread amongst the Suel Imperium to a greater degree than similar theories were held by the other ethnic groups. The Suel are intermingled with everyone else in most lands, if you take the various sources seriously on that score.
Once we shift away from 'what the suel were like 1000+ years ago (this thread's topic) to what they are like now, we enter the quagmire that is Oerth's grossly oversimplified ethnic structure for the Flanaess and the 'fact' that there probably next to no one in the core areas of the region who thinks of him or herself as "suel".
Bluewitch noted that the Rome was a culture made up of diverse cultures whereas the Suel Imperium was apparently made up of Suel. I am not sure this is reasonable in light of the events.
Compare - Rome was a culture based on citizenship, but the Senatorial families claimed "Roman," heritage as something more than simple culture. The idea of the superior Roman was an idea certainly held by some. Racism could hardly be called rampant, but on the converse one cannot say it was absent.
The Suel Imperium may or may not have been made up of various races. However, those who escaped were seemingly of noble familes or magical families. It does not seem that a significant portion of the population escaped, at least as I envision the empire.
My point is that the Suel as a whole may or may not have been racist; however, the families who escaped were just that, families. One would assume that origin and race were considered critical to survival. Such has happened many times before: Hasidic Jews, Chinatown, the Scottish Games in Culoden Georgia, St. Patricks day.
The Suel had many bad people... mages and nobles used to power and others doing things for them. It think the Roman or Byzantine model makes the best model for them, and one could imagine that a Keoish Noble, outside of court, retains much of the accoutrements (or what they perceive to be the accoutrements) of a ancient Suel House.
A thousand years is a long time, however. Its certainly possible that that level of superficial cultural continuity exists. It didn't in Europe historically, but Europe was generally in a much higher stated of turmoil than the Flanaess: continuous threats of invasions from the south and East as well as tribal displacements within Europe itself. The Flanaess is sealed off from the far west by the Amedio Jungle/Sea of Dust/Dry Steppes barrier (with the Yatil/Barrier Peaks/Crystalmist/Hellfurnace range to add insult to injury). And Keoland/the Sheldomar has been remarkably stable since its establishment. A comparison with the cultural flow of China may well be better suited than with Europe for those reasons.
I'd be inclined to say 'clans' or something of that sort rather than families, as well. I doubt the entire Neheli migration were a family unit. Either the Suel were organized into clans or the historical record is shortening "The Neheli family, their retainers, and such of their servants and bondsmen as they could arrange" to just "The Neheli". The Migrations were a tiny fraction of the Empire's population, but there were enough to found cities and dominate the Flan within a fairly short period.
Lots of good points here. I think the Suel Imperium was most like Tokugawa Japan - arrogant, caste-bound and stagnant.
Was the process of Lichdom discovered back then? The implications are pretty staggering for a government of immortals, especially if the process weakens one's humanity. The Baklunish might feel entirely justified to "go nuclear" in that case.
Yes, but the Suel had their own version of the lich (known today as the "Suel lich"), different from the standard lich (which seems to have been a process created by the Flan). Some, or conceivably all, Suel liches survived the Rain of Colorless Fire. There's no indication how common they were, though; they might have been a secret known only to a few.
The Suel lich is a creature of black energy that possesses a mortal body and slowly burns it out, having to change bodies periodically. It's a lot more unpleasant than the Flan lich, in my opinion.
I remember the Suel Liches, but didn't know if they were canon or not. Thanks for answering that.
A society covertly (or overtly) run by liches would definitely be ...different, and this may account for much of the extreme culture and actions by the Suel at the end of the Imperium. I imagine Wee Jas may have been taken aback somewhat at what her magic had wrought, and her assumption of the Death portfolio may have been motivated by this to some degree.
But I'm not quoting canon, just thinking out loud...
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