Hey! Everyone!
I just finished coming out of a money grabbing mind altered state imposed by myself... and discovered a really cool game. It has it all...dungeons, castles, huge worlds to explore... tones and tones of fan supported sites (much like this one) its called... by some... Dungeons & Dragons or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons... wow!
My point is ladies and gents is that these games systems of 1st Ed or 2nd Ed or even 3/3.5 Ed, but most pointedly
is the game we have all come to appreciate so much, is still there. Why do we have to buy! into this new version of the game?
Really. If its new product we wish to spend our money on...well, given enough incentive, I'll sell ya some stuff...well questionable stuff... via d20 Lic....gee, or you could buy from one of the many d20 mini-D&D like Co's that have sprouted. I.E.: Pazio, Necromancer Games, Kenzer Co, Goodman Games, Troll Lords, Green Ronin, Malhavoc Press, Judges Guild, on and on and on... As long as our intensions are conveyed in an informative and "lucrative" manner (money still talks)... then who needs WotC with their Hasbro infected need for greed by putting out the newer MORE fantastic than even D&D game. Ok, if I was 11 or 12... again... that might entice me, but I'm NOT!
A few of these above mentioned companies even make reference and try to curve the appeal of their product by giving it the 1st Edition FEEL. Clearly, the majority of mature gamers look to sustain and keep alive the game...AD&D or D&D, however you wish to address it. Let the game as we know it stay alive, if WotC wishes to destroy that, all they really destroy is there ability to remain true and keep our dollars in their coffers!
I seriously propose we look at the past, at games that clearly played well for us then, some of us still playing them today! Guess what...its still a fun game.
Truly...can it really be justified that a newer Edition with the rules “play tested” (umm...wasn’t 3.0 play tested before it was released? ...3.5 cleared that up eh?). How many DAMMED! Books does it take to play the game, how many more rules does it take to make it better ??? Hmmmm???
... lets get back to the grass roots of gaming, enjoy it for how it was meant to be played, using our imagination and creativity to fill in the blanks vice buying a book for every conceived idea. In the attempt to make it better... which has its merits, it became a money monster (CR55) controlled by the Hasbro Gods!
I’m torched and burning with frustration and disgust over how the game has not evolved, but mutated into what it is now... with a future just as bleak. Yes, sarcasm drips like venom thru this forum. I only know I’ve had it. The cancellations of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines, successful magazines I might add, are the proverbial straws that has broken this back! I look forward to supporting Pazio’s new Pathfinder, after an issue or two... or any other Game company that’ll make the effort to remain true, in general perspective, to the D&D game I remember.
...ummm...can someone hand me a ladder... my soap box is pretty tall...
..further, I maybe an Apprentice Grey"Talker", because I "generally" only post something unless I feel it completely necessary or completely NOT necessary, like when I go about jesting at stuff in general.
This moment, be assured... I feel it completely Necessary!
How many DAMMED! Books does it take to play the game, how many more rules does it take to make it better ??? Hmmmm???
... lets get back to the grass roots of gaming, enjoy it for how it was meant to be played, using our imagination and creativity to fill in the blanks vice buying a book for every conceived idea. In the attempt to make it better... which has its merits, it became a money monster (CR55) controlled by the Hasbro Gods!
then you come back and say
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I look forward to supporting Pazio’s new Pathfinder, after an issue or two... or any other Game company that’ll make the effort to remain true, in general perspective, to the D&D game I remember
not to be an ****, but.............
MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!
either you dont need/want any new source material because your imagination is good enough to come up with it all yourself,
or you want new material made by some one else, but you are just miffed at WotC for some percieved slight that they dealt to you.
ever since WotC and Paizo had said that Dragon and Dungeon would no longer be transmitted in its current form, everyone and their mother has been in an uproar. you do realize that just because they are canceling the mags (for now- dont know what the next incarnation wil actually be) does not mean that one cannot still play the game?!?!?
all it means is that the stream of fluff, crunch, art, stories, modules and everything else that those magazines gave us is going to dry up a bit- until they are resurrected in their newest form.
pretty much every post on every web-board has everyone screaming and crying that they will never buy another WotC product and that Paizo is gonna get all their money.
granted, im kinda sad that i wont get the magazines after a few more months, but that doesnt mean i will stop buying WotC products just because the creative stream has dried up a bit- for now. i dont buy a lot of 3rd party stuff other than dragon and dungeon anyways.
its almost the same as saying your gonna stop watching porn just because Penthouse is stopping their publication and going to an online form. isnt that where a lot of people get their porn from anyways???? :)
the great part about the OGL is that if they would like to, Paizo can create as much material as they wish. hell, they can even continue to make the SAME EXACT magazine, only with a different name and post it on their website or even send it out in a magazine. the only thing it wouldnt have is the "100% offcial D&D material" tag on the cover.
and since they wont have to send EVERYTHING they create to WotC for approval first, they can make ANY rules they wish, which could easily get out of hand.....
Wow...there is someone who reads my crap out there....
Ok, seems you tunnel visioned on the rant... and my apologies for not being more...Concise.
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MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!
either you dont need/want any new source material because your imagination is good enough to come up with it all yourself,
or you want new material made by some one else, but you are just miffed at WotC for some percieved slight that they dealt to you.
First...no need to yell. Yes it was a rant, but it just wasn't about the loss of the magazines that have been a better part of the game as source material. I appreciated the way D&D/AD&D use to be produced...there was a sense of quality over quanity and quality comparable to price. A level of giving the player what they needed, not so much as what they should need or have to have.
The way current 3.5 D&D rule books have developed has gotten plain stupid, sure I'll buy more goods/materials.... i.e.: modules, campaign source material, speciality books (I like the Devil/Demon Codex set), but ease off of these "additional" rules. How many character classes do you really need. Unfortunately, I bought into this, especialy playing Living Greyhawk. Aside from this, it appears to me it has become too much of a money racket by WotC.
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all it means is that the stream of fluff, crunch, art, stories, modules and everything else that those magazines gave us is going to dry up a bit- until they are resurrected in their newest form.
Very true, they need too, but why throw away two legendary magazines for the game that were doing well, with Dungeon actually doing better than it had in years gone by, just to go digital? I could speculate why, point out some of the obvious, but I'm not going to waste my time. It was a bad business move. Period.
But I digress, it wasn't just about the mags being shut down, its the whole platform on the direction WotC/Hasbro has taken the D&D experience, and still calling it D&D. Its more like "Super Heros D&D", again in my opinion.
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its almost the same as saying your gonna stop watching porn just because Penthouse is stopping their publication and going to an online form. isnt that where a lot of people get their porn from anyways???? :)
oooooo.....porn.....ehm! Ah...No! It is not the same, not in the least...in my opinion. I like the tangable feel and look of a magazine, "specificaly here"... Dungeon or Dragon mags, or any number of magazines that support the hobby. "White Dwarf", although another support mag for another game system, is remaining as it is... most likely taking notes and watching to see where this whole Mag issue goes.
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and since they wont have to send EVERYTHING they create to WotC for approval first, they can make ANY rules they wish, which could easily get out of hand.....
If it did get out of hand... then maybe history would repeat itself on the reaction it would get from its patrons.
I've been a patron, supporter, and life long fan (since 1981...yes there are even older/longer supporters, but they're either venerable or lich status now ). I put thousands of my parents dollars ...ehm, of my coin into the game and games that sprouted around it. I believe my time in contributing to the hobby gives me as much as anyone else a moment to rant when something very "stupid" happens.
Since your done you anti-rant... I don't expect to hear from you
All in all, I'm making a more conscious choice on how I intend to continue my experience with the game... a game I once knew as AD&D/D&D... I'm not sure anymore and what it is now.
sounds to me that your biggest gripe isnt with the cancellation of Dragon or Dungeon, but the fact that D20 D&D is a different game than 1st/2nd Edition AD&D, which was a different game than D&D.
i hear this on many different message boards......
3rd edition is too much like a video game....
3rd edition is made for those with less "intelligence".....
3rd edition is designed for those requiring instant gratification, mostly due to being a part of the video game age....
too all these, i say
No one made you buy the 3rd edition game. just because it isnt supported anymore doesnt mean you cant play any of the older versions of the game. each version has something different and each version works better for different gamers.
i have been playing the game since '79. i have played every edition of this game since. myself, i prefer 3rd edition to 2nd edition. hell, i prefer D&D to 2nd edition. some people prefer to have a decent rulebase that doesnt require everything to be houseruled.
3rd edition does have its issues (and even does need somehouse riules here and there) but for the most part, it has a solid rule base. 2nd edition did not. 2nd edition was a very wide open rulebase that practically REQUIRED houserules to fill in the blanks.
3rd edition needs this in very limited areas, mostly due to the rule base where most things run off the same mechanic. 2nd edition does not have that capability with most every subsystem of the game (attacks, saves, spells, skill, etc) all using a different mechanic. 3rd edition was the first system for the D&D "rules" that simplified the mechanics, making it easier to understand and learn.
back to the cancellation of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, i keep hearing people say "but i like the feel of paper in my hands compared to reading a computer screen, this is so impersonal".
its just a magazine folks. its words, pictures, ideas and for this instance, game mechanics. whether its in a magazine you can hold or on a computer where you read it, you are still getting the same information.
its just a magazine folks. its words, pictures, ideas and for this instance, game mechanics. whether its in a magazine you can hold or on a computer where you read it, you are still getting the same information.
For someone whose experienced the game for as long as you, your lack of "nostalgic" loyalty is questionable.
I do agree with you, about 3/3.5 Ed being a system of rules that were more "simple"...no...more constructive, with a more logical approach/application, esp with the d20 concept. However, its all of the additional books of rules, meal parceled over years, expanded here or there, to capture a percentage of ones pocket book, appealing more to a younger audience, and give a sense of sustainability to the big wigs of Hasbro, thats left a sour taste.
Got to keep it young, keep it "now", change with the times... yup, saw that, tis business for sustainability, commented on that if I was 10 or 12 yrs old again, but I'm not. You see, there is a generation of gamers who don't collapse into the video game era... well, at least not completely. I'd like to consider it the generation I share with the same ideas and principles towards the hobby. It seems apparent to me by the amount of reaction there is concerning current 3.5. Not saying everyone feels that way, but respective of the opinions made about the current state of 3.5... maybe if 3.5 had stayed relative...and not bloated itself so... but, that’s just my opinion. I urge Duicarthan to resubmit this forum to the open/Home page and let others read and comment about this...that is comment, not belittle or judge me for my opinion.
I get the feeling you take offence to my rant and use it as a means to defend your own ideals...as if "personally affronted" by some things I've said. My apologies to you, I never meant such an intention, if it is perceived as such. Try and read what I'm saying, not what you are hearing.
As such, I'm content now on having recognized the WotC/Hasbro greed approach, the mutation of D&D over the past few years and its subtle way of ruining what some consider the better part of the experience (i.e.: Greyhawk, the mags, etc...).
I’ll “fade” away from the LG scene and turn my attentions/coin towards other gaming avenues that will give me a semblance of remaining true to the spirit/original D&D experience. It’s been a slice, I hope you’ll make it out to the “Grey-Talker’s Gathering” if or when it’ll ever get situated. Keep posted. I’d like to meet you and maybe set aside any misconceptions.
I urge Duicarthan to resubmit this forum to the open/Home page and let others read and comment about this...that is comment, not belittle or judge me for my opinion.
Considering the tone and the direction of this thread, the only place its going to get moved to is straight to Purgatory. Play nice 'hawks.
Thanks.
Dethand _________________ Canonfire Community Supporter and Forum Justicar
i was gonna write a huge reply to this but halfway thru it started pissing me off so i decided to not post it. i wont change anyones mind by explaining things so i wont even try.
and just because a person post a rant, doesnt mean they cant come back and reply to others posts.............
:l I urge Duicarthan to resubmit this forum to the open/Home page and let others read and comment about this...that is comment, not belittle or judge me for my opinion.
As stated in the chat, this post got moved b/c its an edition rant not a World of Greyhawk Discussion where any and all "Greyhawk" topics welcome, therefore it belongs in back alley. I don't mind the rant, but this is where it belongs. =) _________________ Cheerz,
-Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
http://www.oerthjournal.comhttp://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
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Hey! Everyone! 
by myself... and discovered a really cool game. It has it all...dungeons, castles, huge worlds to explore... tones and tones of fan supported sites (much like this one) its called... by some... Dungeons & Dragons or Advanced Dungeons & Dragons... wow! 
My point is ladies and gents is that these games systems of 1st Ed or 2nd Ed or even 
3/3.5 Ed, but most pointedly 
I get the feeling you take offence to my rant and use it as a means to defend your own ideals...as if "personally affronted" by some things I've said. My apologies to you, I never meant such an intention, if it is perceived as such. Try and read what I'm saying, not what you are hearing.
