I attended the 2007 Gencon Convention in Indianapolis and have just returned home. There was much at the con that concerns GH. For those who did not attend, I offer this synopsis.
First off, it was a great con. I had more fun than at any convention I have attended in certainly the last decade.
Just so folks know from where I am drawing my comments, I attended five seminars at Gencon that are germain to this discussion -
The Big Announcement (4E)
D&D Q&A No. 1
D&D Q&A No. 2
D&D and the OGL
The RPGA Members Meeting.
I also spoke at length with several Wotc folks, who were festooned with badges declaring them "D&D Insiders" and answer persons.
1) Fourth Edition
As everyone knows, Fourth Edition was announced.
It will not be compatible with 3E or 3.5E. To quote, "the math behind the mechancics is totally different" and "direct conversion is not possible." A 20th Level 4E fighter, by one example given, will not be comparable to a 20th Level 3E or 3.5E fighter. No conversion guide will be offered.
4E will support play from Levels 1 to 30. Epic will not be a special sort of high level play as in 3E and 3.5E.
All 4E classes will be designed to fill specific roles in a party. There will be "something cool" for every class to do at every level. These two features work to provide stability and variety - every class will excell at its designated role but then, on top of that will have suites of additional abilities to choose from in a new sort of multiclass or in lieu of a multiclass. PrCs are a thing of the past. NB - To me this sounds like a big powerup of PCs.
Vancian magic, spell slots, are gone in 4e. What exactly replaces them was not made clear but Vancian magic was said to be a thing of the past.
2) The New Support Model
4e will be supported in a new way. In May - July of 2008, the 4E PH, MM and DMG debut. Every year thereafter a new PH, MM and DMG will be issued. The yearly PHs will be designed to all work together, while each yearly DMG will be themeatically distinguished, the first being generic but later ones covering, for example, horror campaigns, swashbuckling campaigns etc. What this practically means, it seems, is that Wotc will be able to resell a PH, MM and DMG every year.
3) D&D Insider
The official name of the Digital Initiative is the D&D Insider or DDI. This should not be confused with Gleemax, which will be a parallel social networking site for gamers. There are three main components to the DDI- Content formerly published in Dragon Magazine; Content formerly published in Dungeon Magazine; and a Virtual Tabletop where you can play D&D over the net with graphics and maps.
The cost for the DDI is not firmly set but will be between $8 and $12 per month.
You must subscribe to the DDI to use any of its features after an intial trial period. If your subscription lapses or starts late, you will not get the prior content free upon your subscription but will have to pay for "back issues."
Interestingly, material published on the DDI will be considered "canon" to the settings in question.
4) The GH Default
There will be no default setting for 4E. The GH default is over. Some very familiar GH names attached to spells (Mordy, Bigby, Tenser, etc.) or relics (Vecna) or very rarely gods, will be used in a completely generic manner. This is not a slight of GH nor a attempt to cannibalize it but rather a recognition that these GH associations have become so wide spread in D&D as to be nearly universal.
5) Living Greyhawk
Living Greyhawk will be concluded at Origins 2008. It will be replaced with the Living Realms. Three reasons were given for the change -a) 4e is not compatable or convertible with/to 3e so LGH had to end, b) FR has more bells and whistles that the Living Realms can and will take advantage of; and c) FR is more popular than GH.
6) 4e OGL
There will be a 4e OGL and there may be a 4e d20 license. The details are still being worked out.
7) Canonfire Meetup
On Saturday night, Duicarthan, Rob Bastard and myself met up and spoke of about an hour. There were supposed to be more people showing up but their con schedules got in the way.
8) Gygax and Ghul Complete the Oerthly Pentiad.
In Polyhedron 21, EGG set forth five parallel worlds - Earth, Aerth, Yarth, Urth and Oerth. Of these, Earth is our own world. Aerth was detailed in the Dangerous Journeys game from GDW and in the Gord the Rogue books. Yarth was described in the Sagard the Barbarian books. Oerth is of course home to the Flanaess. Urth remained, however, undocumented.
Urth is now described as the home of Castle Zagig from Troll Lords. The Eastmark Gazatteer that debuted at Gencon and which was written by EGG and Canonfire's own Ghul (both of whom I had the pleasure of meeting and speaking with ) directly makes this connection.
This completes Oerth's dimensional pentiad! As someone who is in the process of mapping Oerths planar and dimensional connections, I was and am nothing less than thrilled at this development!
Conclusion
I'm certain I'm forgetting some things but I think the above hits the big points. It was a truly fun and eventful con and I enjoyed the opportunity to meet in person some of my fellow Canonfirees. _________________ GVD
The other world is actually "Uerth," which appeared in Expedition to Castle Greyhawk as an "evil mirror universe" version of Oerth. "Urth" wasn't part of the pentad.
Great report GVD. I'm afraid my gencon experience was miserable in comparison and having only went Thursday I had no time to find out anything nor did I have a chance to meet anyone. I vow to try better next year.
Thanks for the report. Sadly, this shows me that 4E is even less interesting than I'd first thought. Every new detail I read makes me less and less inclined to buy it and make the switch. And it seems fairly obvious that at best we might a "setting update" at some point for WoG, and that'll be it for us from WotC. In short, for the first time in my 28 year history of gaming, I am not planning on buying any new D&D material. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Good stuff, bad stuff and stuff I'm not so sure on.
Good stuff:
The DDI isn't as expensive as I thought it was going to be, but I'll wait and see if the price fluxuates between now and the launch.
And the vitual table top has my interest, but again, I'll have to see how it compares to pen and pencil gaming.
Bad stuff:
No prestige classes? That was one of the best things about third edition!
.
Stuff I'm not so sure on:
A new PHB every year? Are these going to be rules updates, or a suplamentry like the current PHBII?
New magic system? Could work. Wizards to tend to become rather less powerful once they've fired off most of their spells, but I hope this doesn't turn them into a sorcerer by another name.
New class system? All this talk of multiclassing with classes does make it seam like the the class system is about to become a lot more complex.
So far, I'm cautiously optimistic. I'll just wait and see if this sinks or swims for me.[/b]
I too was seriously dismayed by the Gen Con report. I have complained just as much as anyone else about the idea of 4th edition. Sure I knew it was coming (it was inevitable), but after buying 55+ hardcover rule books for myself and family, along with all of the softbound books, softbound and hardcover modules, miniatures, and a few other odds and ends, not to mention all of the 1st and 2nd edition modules I re-purchased to get back into D&D I think I have supported the company enough.
I understand their need and desire to make money and I don't fault them for this. It is their business practices (morals) I have a problem with. It is to soon for 4th edition and when the time came, it should have been compatible with all of the other books I purchased. But clearly that is not the case.
My answer is this:
Because I am a gamer and have associated myself with D&D for 26 years I will purchase the new Players Handbook simply to read and see where the game ended up going. Regardless of how good it is, my purchases will then end with the exception of modules if they are somewhat functional for me to use. I will continue to play 3.5 because of the money I have invested. I am not willing to restart my library of D&D books all over again or to set it to the wayside and purchase just the basics of 4th edition. I fully intend on using the books I bought. With WOTC's extremely aggressive book releases of 3.5, I have a lot of catching up to do in order to get the material of these books into the World of Greyhawk the way I envisioned from the beginning. Now I will have time to catch up.
I'l probably keep up Dragon and Dungeon since I have a complete collection going back to the mid 30's of Dragon (and scattered older issues after that). If they prove to show no Greyhawk I will discontinue that as well. (At least the first electronic Dragon has a redo of The Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth to offer).
I'll hope to continue writing, making any articles written editionless so that as many people can use them as possible. All will fully support Greyhawk.
Honestly, D&D isn't even my favorite game....I came back to it for three reasons.....
1. My daughter, I wanted her to experience the same roleplaying excitement I did when I was a teen.
2. I want to get more involved in writing gaming articles. D&D offers the
best opportunity (not much of a demand for Top Secret/S.I. unfortunetly).
3. I miss Greyhawk. To me, Greyhawk is the best part of D&D, regardless of which edition I play.
I suspect 4th edition will not even feel like D&D, instead it will feel like I'm playing a computer game without the screen, something which just isn't for me. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
The other world is actually "Uerth," which appeared in Expedition to Castle Greyhawk as an "evil mirror universe" version of Oerth. "Urth" wasn't part of the pentad.
Urth is a term associated with the goddess of fate -- a giantess whose name is synonymous with Urd and Wyrd, which has been defined as "that which becomes." As the people of the East Mark largely worship the pantheon of deities known as the Tenoric (a mix of Norse and Germanic-style divine beings), the term "Urth" for use as a reference to the whole world works well. The term "Uerth" is the IP of WotC.
With the above in mind, one of the strengths of the East Mark setting is its portability, meaning it can be dropped into any setting (published or homebrew), as it is comprised of about a 1,500 mile area. That's about all I'll say, because I don't frequent CF to promote products I'm associated with. I come here because I'm a huge GH fan. I'll answer questions when (and if) I can, but I'm not going to "plug" products. But I do appreciate the kindly nod from GVD, and it was a pleasure to meet you, dude!
The other world is actually "Uerth," which appeared in Expedition to Castle Greyhawk as an "evil mirror universe" version of Oerth. "Urth" wasn't part of the pentad.
Trees. Forest. Dots. More dots.
Uerth is Wotc IP, as Ghul points out. So, EGG and Ghul give us Urth. The forest may have a different name but the trees look awfully familiar. Connect the dots.
Your point, however, remains well taken. So, we get a ERGH Uerth and it is by necessity is "canon" as it comes from the IP holder. Greyhawk canon, however, admits of more than one strain, particularly when the pen of EGG is doing the writing.
The later Gord books are New Infinities, not TSR or Wotc, but being penned by EGG have a status all but IP holder "canon." The same may be said for GDW's Epic of Aerth. Castle Zagig, by its simple name invokes canon GH, even if we say nothing of its authorship. How then to look at Urth?
"The quality of mercy is not strained," nor the quality of "canon." When it is EGG and its is touching on GH and a parallel is explicit, as it is between Urth and Uerth, I believe we have a species of GH "canon." Now, reconciling Urth of the Eastmark and Uerth of ERGH may be called for but the mere existence of one does not, IMO, render the other a nullity with respect to GH. Of course, YMMV and every Greyhawker may choose how to read this or that for themselves.
For me Urth of Castle Zagig is closer to EGG's Uerth than ERGH because it is written by EGG (and Ghul). At the same time, I will not dismiss Uerth in ERGH either. Contrary to some who seek a zero-sum, one truth, version of GH, I personally love the conflicts and puzzling over them.
My first take, without have fully digested either the Eastmark Gazateer or ERGH, is that Urth and Uerth are doppleganers. Mirrors of mirrors. Why the other pentiad dimensions don't have such mirrors of mirrors remains to be seen. Perhaps they do or perhaps there is something special about Uerth/Urth. I see lots of fun puzzling ahead!
While I tip my hat to Erik Mona and company for Uerth, I do the same for EGG and Ghul. While Uerth has the benifit of the IP holder's imprimature, Urth has the benefit of the imprimature of the EGG, the co-founder of the game and of Greyhawk. I see no reason to have to choose between the two. I'll have my cake and eat it! _________________ GVD
GVD, first thanks for the report. But, I am a bit confused. It sounds more like a totally new game system than a revision. If the changes are so sweeping that one cannot "convert" old characters to new, then it is a new system and not D&D.
An airplane converted into a submarine is no longer an air vehicle even though it remains a means of conveyance.
Old monsters will have a new feel when encountered for certain. "Wow, that monster was tougher than I recalled." "Hey, that went a lot easier than it did in the past; it's not so tough anymore." I've tried converting D&D monsters to other systems and the flavor is never fully captured; some get tougher and some weaken or loose abilities dependent on the system. Surely some of you have tried this and discovered the same.
If its a new system, label it as such. What should WoTC call it? D&D-OS (operating system)? World of D&D? D&D Variant 1.0? D&D:TNG? D&D, the Gathering? Hey, you gotta keep your sense of humor.
Remember, history tends to repeat itself. As with 1st and 2nd Edition protesters, many players moved on to 3.0 & 3.5. Of course it was still somewhat similiar to the earlier editions. I suspect that the majority will once again move on to the new 4th Ed. System. But what if it is too different? Hmm? Would you be willing to play GURPS or HERO instead? The changes could be that dramatic, and the transition might be just that but with the D&D logo in place.
Vancian magic, spell slots, are gone in 4e. What exactly replaces them was not made clear but Vancian magic was said to be a thing of the past.
This I don't care for. So much of that post disturbs me, I'm not even sure what else to say at this point, but thank you for posting what you have heard. _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
Because I am a gamer and have associated myself with D&D for 26 years I will purchase the new Players Handbook simply to read and see where the game ended up going. Regardless of how good it is, my purchases will then end with the exception of modules if they are somewhat functional for me to use. I will continue to play 3.5 because of the money I have invested. I am not willing to restart my library of D&D books all over again or to set it to the wayside and purchase just the basics of 4th edition. I fully intend on using the books I bought. With WOTC's extremely aggressive book releases of 3.5, I have a lot of catching up to do in order to get the material of these books into the World of Greyhawk the way I envisioned from the beginning. Now I will have time to catch up.
This is my opinion also.
I am sure 4e will be a great, playable and fun game. I am just as sure that I will not be picking it up beyond the PH (out of curiousity) because 3x is a great, playable and fun game and I have invested a great deal in 3x material, both from Wotc and 3rd parties. Moreover, it is possible to covert 1E and 2E material, of which I also have quite a bit, to 3x, either directly or through the intermediation of a Castles and Crusades approach. 4e is stated not to allow a similar conversion of 3x material to 4e and this suggests it is even less possible to convert 1e or 2e material to 4e use. 4e becomes for me then increasingly problematic.
The one exception I would draw would be should GH be supported in 4e. Then, I would likely get those products, but only those products.
Starting in 2008, with the advent of 4e however, GH is as dead a world as it was in 1995-1996. I think there is some benefit to this. While attracting new GHers will be increasingly difficult, the setting will not be subject to the vissisitudes of the various "uses" to which it was put to in 3x. That is for me some relief.
I will under no set of foreseeable circumstances be participating in the DDI for $8 to $12 per month. I don't buy PDF products and digital Dungeon and Dragon leave me cold for similar reasons. I actually have a small collection of 3x PDFs that were made available for free by various companies. I dutifully downloaded them but find I make little to no regular use of them. I suspect the same would be true of digital Dungeon and Dragon. I'll go out on a limb and suggest that I think a similar reaction on the part of others will sharply limit the success of the DDI. It is too easy to download and ignore a PDF, whereas a book reminds you of its existence by its physical presence. Time will tell.
With respect to Gleemax, the DDI's mutant twin, I remain undecided. At least it is free.
Ultimately, I have found, for Greyhawk, Canonfire to be in all ways superior to any other creative outlet in 3x. I can't see that changing with the advent of 4e. I do wish, however, that more people would take the time and the opportunity to share their creations on Canonfire. With GH dead, Canonfire is both all there is and needs the creative inputs. _________________ GVD
A new PHB every year? Are these going to be rules updates, or a suplamentry like the current PHBII?
My sense is that it will be both. There will be both supplementary material as well as new material. It was repeatedly stressed that D&D is a "living" game that continually "grows" and "evolves." 4e is actually tagged as "an evolution in gaming."
Skech wrote:
It sounds more like a totally new game system than a revision. If the changes are so sweeping that one cannot "convert" old characters to new, then it is a new system and not D&D.
An airplane converted into a submarine is no longer an air vehicle even though it remains a means of conveyance. . . .
If its a new system, label it as such. What should WoTC call it? D&D-OS (operating system)? World of D&D? D&D Variant 1.0? D&D:TNG? D&D, the Gathering? Hey, you gotta keep your sense of humor.
You hit the nail on the head, Skech.
The system is grounded on the d20 system of 3x such that "if you know how to play 3x, you will know how to play 4e," which is a direct quote as close as I can come. Other than this surface similarity, much of everything else is different. It will play different - supposedly faster and cleaner with better definition in the "roles" assigned to the PC classes and the monsters and better enabled high level play - said to be smooth to 30th level. But it will be different. Just as 3x was ultimately a different experience from 2e, 4e will likely be a different experience from 3x. It will be identifiable as D&D but a different presentation/variety of D&D. Lots of sames but just as many differents. _________________ GVD
Great report GVD. I'm afraid my gencon experience was miserable in comparison and having only went Thursday I had no time to find out anything nor did I have a chance to meet anyone. I vow to try better next year.
You were at the con and I missed you. I also kept missing Grodog, who was there. I'd love the opportunity to meet both of you next year, as well as other Canonfirees. I suggested to Duicarthan that perhaps putting something on the official Gencon schedule - in the program book - might facilitate things. An "official" Canonfire seminar? In this vein I note that the Planescape fans from Planewalker.com had TWO such seminars at this Gencon, so such is certainly doable. Interest? _________________ GVD
It certainly couldn't hurt, and it would attract more new members than current I would wager. Also Planewalker usually gets voted in those damned Ennies every year, so they have that set going for them at the con.
I am sure 4e will be a great, playable and fun game. I am just as sure that I will not be picking it up beyond the PH (out of curiousity) because 3x is a great, playable and fun game and I have invested a great deal in 3x material, both from Wotc and 3rd parties.
You might surprise yourself. :)
My collection of 3e stuff is rather large - even if mostly only Wizards material - but there are certain things in 4e that would persuade me to change. Flattening the powercurve somewhat would help. (I don't like it that you get to 3rd or 4th level and vanilla orcs are no longer a credible threat). I have hopes.
Quote:
Ultimately, I have found, for Greyhawk, Canonfire to be in all ways superior to any other creative outlet in 3x. I can't see that changing with the advent of 4e. I do wish, however, that more people would take the time and the opportunity to share their creations on Canonfire. With GH dead, Canonfire is both all there is and needs the creative inputs.
Definitely agree. The trouble I have with posting to Canonfire is that my creation of new material is erratic. I've already posted most of the information I created for my Ulek campaign, and that game relies on variations on that material. So, until the campaign winds up - just in time for 4e! - I'm not creating all that much that is new.
4e will be supported in a new way. In May - July of 2008, the 4E PH, MM and DMG debut. Every year thereafter a new PH, MM and DMG will be issued. The yearly PHs will be designed to all work together, while each yearly DMG will be themeatically distinguished, the first being generic but later ones covering, for example, horror campaigns, swashbuckling campaigns etc. What this practically means, it seems, is that Wotc will be able to resell a PH, MM and DMG every year.
I sure don´t like the sound of this. IT sounds like "yeah, we will continue to sell splatbooks to you, but we call them PH 20xx and DMG 20xx now." I haven´t used or even read all the 3.x optional rules and stuff now, and yet the same madness starts all over again?
With the DI, it might actually be helpful if transition from 3.x or older games to 4 is impossible - it might allow you to rebuild some stuff.
If the contents of Dragon and Dungeon are not downloadable in some way, (say, a watermarked pdf), then I won´t buy it. I still would like a printed version best, space restraints notwithstanding. Barring that, I want to have a file on my hard drive, not some content subject to change and only accessible as long as I pay a fee.
As Erik said various times, at the moment, WotC won´t give their licences to third parties. I guess that they want to keep control while 4e starts. AFAIK, the numerous settings were one reason for the crash of TSR ten years ago, so I can´t blame them for being cautious.
It just occured to me the reasons for recalling the liscence! With the release of 4.0, WOTC has a vested interest in the death of 3.5/OGL. While they cannot kill OGL, they are the dominant force in the industry. If they recall their IP, then this goes a long way to forcing many (not all but many) to 4.0.
I think it's a great idea to get the Greyhawk meetup in the program book. I would have really liked to have attended this year's, but by the time I found out about it I already had other plans. The sooner I could block out that time, the easier it would be to make it.
For that matter, why not do a Canonfire Greyhawk seminar? We used to do official ones every year and they were always well attended.
I think it's a great idea to get the Greyhawk meetup in the program book. I would have really liked to have attended this year's, but by the time I found out about it I already had other plans. The sooner I could block out that time, the easier it would be to make it.
For that matter, why not do a Canonfire Greyhawk seminar? We used to do official ones every year and they were always well attended.
--Erik
I think it's a great idea, too. I was intending on meeting up with you guys, but I got another offer I could not refuse: dinner with the Gygax's at The Ram (party of 20 for dinner), followed by a private party in their 20th floor suite at the Hyatt. These are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities that one can't turn down! LOL.
But it was cool to meet Samwise (even if it was brief), and GVD (we got to talk a bit longer), had breakfast with grodog and RJK, and spoke briefly with Mr. Mona at the Paizo booth (I wanted to give you a copy of the Castle Zagyg East Mark folio and also get you to sign my Greyhawk Ruins hardback, but alas, I was so busy and our booths were at extreme opposites at the con).
I think it's a great idea to get the Greyhawk meetup in the program book. I would have really liked to have attended this year's, but by the time I found out about it I already had other plans. The sooner I could block out that time, the easier it would be to make it.
For that matter, why not do a Canonfire Greyhawk seminar? We used to do official ones every year and they were always well attended.
--Erik
Agreed.
A couple of notes -
1) Unless the intention is purely to meet in person, an agenda of some sort for the seminar would be in order, I'd think.
I'd think this would be particularly important if there is an expectation that, the seminar being in the program book, the seminar would attract those interested in GH generally and not just CF members. Attracting new participants or interest in GH would, IMO, be a very good thing.
2) Canonfire is not the Oerth Journal and vice versa. A Canonfire seminar should stick to Canonfire/GH in the main, with an OJ sidebar certainly, but the focus should be on CF and GH. This is, of course, my opinion and preference. YMMV.
If there is a desire to strongly promote the OJ, I think another seminar, distinct from CF, would be in order. Of note, the Planescape fans from Planewalker.com hosted TWO seminars. GH fans could do the same - one CF, one OJ. _________________ GVD
. . . These are once-in-a-lifetime opportunities that one can't turn down! LOL. . . .
--Jeff T.
No kidding! Sounds like you had a memorable time even with working a booth!
Hopefully, there can be opportunities for more people to get together at Gencon. I certainly enjoyed meeting up with yourself, Duicarthan and Rob Bastard.
It strikes me that 1) with Paizo-Hawk flown the coup; 2) Living Greyhawk dead; and 3) the GH default of 3rd Edition done away with for 4th Edition, Greyhawk is down to its fans - again. If there was ever a time for GH's fans to get together (Irish wake? ), the next years would seem to be the time. _________________ GVD
All it really takes is for someone to register the event at the appropriate time, which seems to be about 4-6 months before the convention. Gen Con isn't shy about spreading the word on this deadline, so if a bunch of us are looking out for it it won't be difficult to catch.
I'd suggest a fairly wide-open "agenda" for the seminar that attempts to bring in all factions of Greyhawk fandom. With enough planning it would probably be possible to get GH-related "guests" for the panel or whatever, but since the point of said seminar would be getting people to visit and post on Canonfire, you'd definitely want to make the panel an ecclectic group, perhaps including CF moderators or something.
Randy Richards did a Greyhawk trivia contest at Gen Con one year that was pretty fun. Something like that might make for a good time, but I'd suggest keeping it relatively short.
In the spirit of Canonfire, I think an "open" discussion is in order, with DMs sharing ideas with one another rather than sitting in the audience listening to someone with "authority" talk about official Greyhawk.
At least for the time being, "official Greyhawk" doesn't really mean anything, and Canonfire will be carrying the torch.
I'd also suggest trying to schedule it at night so that interested parties could alight to a watering hole for food and beverage after the formal seminar is concluded.
Thanks of the report! I am very surprised that 4e will not be based on any previous D&D system whatsoever. Converting 1e/2e to 3.x is not that much of a hassle, but converting any of this to a game system that has nothing to do with them will be an annoyance. I'll look over the 4e PHB, but I highly doubt I'll buy it.
While the Oerth Journal and Canonfire! are not the same thing, they are both perused by mostly the same people. It would be better to have a generic "Greyhawk" panel at any CON as many people know of Greyhawk, but not necessarily know of the Oerth Journal or Canonfire!. Let it be as open to the Greyhawk community as whole as it can be. A great hand-out for such a meeting would be a list of Greyhawk resources on the web, and a list of all Greyhawk related products(past and present). _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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A great hand-out for such a meeting would be a list of Greyhawk resources on the web, and a list of all Greyhawk related products(past and present).
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While I have not had the pleasure of attending Gen Con I been reading the posts with interest. I may be new to the internet aspect of Greyhawk but here's my input anyway.
People are going to be familiar with the name Greyhawk and those who are interested will stop by and ask questions about their favorite setting, what ever happened to it, as well as offer support for it when they see a booth or banner.
A list of internet sites featuring Greyhawk (such as Canonfire and Oerth Journal) should be printed on business cards so that people can take it home and check it out after the Con.
Since we can't do anything "official" and assuming that somehow WOTC doesn't close down such a booth (CAN THEY?) I would have a list of articles printed from these websites (as things to offer visitors at no cost to them). These shouldn't be flashy ads, but actually something they can use in their campaign to realize we offer Greyhawk material that is free for them to read and use within their home campaigns. I don't know if this is possible considering legal aspects, I'll let someone else make that decision.
I would suggest a speaker or two if it is feasible, both someone from the past with deep roots to Greyhawk who is willing to talk about the old TSR days, maybe tell some funny stories, answer questions, that sort of thing. In addition, I would have one or two people who are newer and strongly tied to the websites being promoted for questions and answers, as well as a vision of the future. "THE FANS ARE GREYHAWK, AND THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO!" type of approach.
I would avoid any type of approach which makes Greyhawk look like it got dumped by WOTC and anything that imposes a negative light upon them. This could cause problems and is not in the spirit of gaming nor Greyhawk in the first place. Old school players have been around for awhile and hopefully will be able to maintain a greater level of professionalism than WOTC did this year. The primary objective is to shed a bright light on Greyhawk so people use it, come back to it, and fall in love with it.
All of this of coarse keeping in mind any legal issues with WOTC in regards of Greyhawk licensing.
Just thoughts from someone who plays D&D for Greyhawk and would like to offer what I would like to see. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I'd suggest a fairly wide-open "agenda" for the seminar that attempts to bring in all factions of Greyhawk fandom.
. . .
In the spirit of Canonfire, I think an "open" discussion is in order, with DMs sharing ideas with one another rather than sitting in the audience listening to someone with "authority" talk about official Greyhawk.
. . .
I'd also suggest trying to schedule it at night so that interested parties could alight to a watering hole for food and beverage after the formal seminar is concluded.
--Erik
I completely agree with all of the above - a wide ranging "roundtable" after which interested parties may adjourn to a local establishment to fortify themselves - rather than the traditional panel seminar. There would need to be a "lead" to get the meeting in the program book and to open, close and perhaps get the proceedings rolling but other than that I like the above described approach.
Given that GH is "dead" again, there is probably not much point in hearing from "experts" or gaming "professionals" strictly from behind a podium or table. The fans are once again each charged with maintaining the setting and interest in it.
I second Erik's suggested course of proceeding. Other thoughts? _________________ GVD
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A great hand-out for such a meeting would be a list of Greyhawk resources on the web, and a list of all Greyhawk related products(past and present).
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That's an excellent idea!
I concur! Fred's wonderful handout from GenCon 2000 (with material that was cut from the LGG) would be a good model to follow: something that all GH fans will wish they'd been present to have (and perhaps print it on parchment or something similar).
I wish I had a chance to spend more time meeting with folks at the show. Other than meeting Ghul, I didn't see any other GH fans outside of Rob's events: I missed Erik, GVD, Samwise, and many others :( :( Hopefully next year.
I'd be happy to help plan the seminar and to enter is as an official seminar, too. Perhaps we should entitle is "After the Ashes" or somesuch? since by then the setting will be officially "dead" (like that's every stopped GH fans before!). _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
I'd be happy to help plan the seminar and to enter is as an official seminar, too. Perhaps we should entitle is "After the Ashes" or somesuch? since by then the setting will be officially "dead" (like that's every stopped GH fans before!).
well...you can be snarky and hold a mock funeral (play lots of jazz music tho, it'll take the sting out of the sarcasm), with all the 3.5 rule books in the casket.
Or you can hold an irish wake at a local pub. If memory serves, there's a rather nice pub within easy staggering distance of the convention center.
Or you can be all corporate and have a nice roundtable discussion about the progression of the product line and where you think it might end up in a few years.
Personally, I'd rather see a mock funeral. Nothing says 'thanks for being stupid WoTC' than a nice funeral for the product line.
If you hold a gathering at an informal location such a pub would it be for certain people or anyone who visits the Canonfire booth? The main reason I ask is that some people who might like to participate could be under age....it would be a shame to leave people out because of this. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
If you hold a gathering at an informal location such a pub would it be for certain people or anyone who visits the Canonfire booth? The main reason I ask is that some people who might like to participate could be under age....it would be a shame to leave people out because of this.
You could always do both - have a mock funeral, have a few well known people come and give eulogies, then a nice procession in the streets (a la New Orleans style) for a send off.
Then have the wind up party at the pub for those who want to down a shot in rememberance of better times.
Maybe we are setting the bar a bit high, lets be careful not to cross over the line from sarcastic to silly.
Remember we should be careful about an elaborate funeral send off, the goal should be to convince people Greyhawk isn't dead not to bury it no matter how tongue in cheek.
Perhaps handing out classic black arm bands or black ribbons along with the proposed sheet so players can mourn LG demise and show support for GH.
Perhaps handing out classic black arm bands or black ribbons along with the proposed sheet so players can mourn LG demise and show support for GH.
Oh sure, if you wanted to be tasteful and understated. My thought was to dress up as Nerull the Reaper and head on down to the WoTC booth with a bunch of gothed out succubus chicks for fire support.
However, I'm more than aware that mixing my hobbies is probably going to freak a few people out, so perhaps black armbands would be for the best.
I dunno Eileen, from what I've seen of previous 'Greyhawker get-togethers' pubs are tradition. However there are plenty of places in the nearby hotels or restaraunts that would cater to all ages.
As mentioned, I have never had the fortune of attending a convention like Gen Con so I pretty much threw the idea out as food for thought. If I went next year I know I would take my teenage daughter with who's big on Greyhawk and I'm sure she would like to attend any meetings. Anyway this is where I was coming from. Wasn't trying to put a damper on anyone elses fun. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Uerth is Wotc IP, as Ghul points out. So, EGG and Ghul give us Urth. The forest may have a different name but the trees look awfully familiar. Connect the dots.
I guess the question is, does Urth look like Uerth? Before this year, Uerth only existed in one sentence, from Polyhedron: "On Earth, magic is virtually non-existent. On Uerth, dweomers are weak, chancy things. Yarth has a sprinkling of things magical, and Oerth is pure magic."
So, is Urth a place where "dweomers are weak, chancy things?" If not, what connection does it really have with Uerth (and the same criticism applies to the Expedition version)? I've no doubt it's a Gygaxian world, and it might well have connections to Oerth, Yarth, Aerth and the others, but if it isn't distinguished from Oerth by its magic level, does it really have anything to do with the original sentence that inspired it? If not, I'd be more likely to count it as a previously-unknown sixth world than as the missing fifth.
Since WotC's "Uerth" hasn't been much detailed, on the other hand, I'd be more than happy to consider it and Urth as one and the same - to say that "Castle Zagig" exists in the counter-Oerth where familiar NPCs have the reverse alignment. Why not? The chaotic neutral Zagig/Xagig won't be expected to change much, in any case. But as it seems unlikely that such a fabulous dungeon could exist on a world where "dweomers are weak, chancy things," I maintain that while Urth may be as officially Gygaxian an Uerth as we're going to get, it isn't the Uerth described in the original Polyhedron article. That remains a separate, still unknown world.
Oh sure, if you wanted to be tasteful and understated. My thought was to dress up as Nerull the Reaper and head on down to the WoTC booth with a bunch of gothed out succubus chicks for fire support.
I would be so there to see that!
Unfortunately I've never attended GENCON but one of these days I will. I'll also have to start hanging around he more often.
Edit: I can't believe that after 6 years this is my 1st post. _________________ Wait... What did I just post?
I guess the question is, does Urth look like Uerth? Before this year, Uerth only existed in one sentence, from Polyhedron: "On Earth, magic is virtually non-existent. On Uerth, dweomers are weak, chancy things. Yarth has a sprinkling of things magical, and Oerth is pure magic."
So, is Urth a place where "dweomers are weak, chancy things?" If not, what connection does it really have with Uerth (and the same criticism applies to the Expedition version)? . . . If not, I'd be more likely to count it as a previously-unknown sixth world than as the missing fifth.
An excellent point.
I rather like the "unknown sixth" idea.
How many different ways can we spell "earth?" Let us count the ways! _________________ GVD
If you hold a gathering at an informal location such a pub would it be for certain people or anyone who visits the Canonfire booth? The main reason I ask is that some people who might like to participate could be under age....it would be a shame to leave people out because of this.
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
As mentioned, I have never had the fortune of attending a convention like Gen Con so I pretty much threw the idea out as food for thought. If I went next year I know I would take my teenage daughter with who's big on Greyhawk and I'm sure she would like to attend any meetings. Anyway this is where I was coming from. Wasn't trying to put a damper on anyone elses fun.
Not to worry, Eileen.
Gencon seminars are not held in booths but in meeting rooms in, connected to or nearby the convention center. Passerby traffic will be almost nonexistent. Anyone wanting to attend will learn of the seminar from the program book alone, unless they heard about it online etc. before arriving at the con.
No alcohol is allowed on the con premises (or smoking). So the seminar itself will be alcohol free. Erik wasn't proposing having the seminar offsite at a pub or bar but scheduling the con late enough in the day so that after the seminar those interested could then retire to a pub or bar. The seminar would come first and any voyage to the pub or bar would come afterwards.
Erik, Ghul, Grodog and perhaps others from CF will likely or may be working booths in the Exhibition Hall, which closes at 6pm each day (except Sunday, the last day of the con, when it closes at 2pm). So the seminar needs to be at that time or later to accompdate their schedules, which also happens to coincide with many peoples dinner hours. So, they and others would attend the seminar and then be up for going to a pub, restaurant or bar thereafter. Seminars generally last for an hour (two hours at the most).
The procession idea is outside either the seminar or pub idea. Gencon has had a number of "events" not really seminars (although they may be called such in the program book) that are similar to the procession idea. Next year, for example, there will doubtless be the "Cthulthu For President" rally, which has included a procession, because it is a presidential election year in the US. Cthulthu's campaign slogan is "No More Years!"
I'm personally not up for parading to the Wotc booth to mourn GH. Could be fun but I've seen such processions in the Exhibition Hall and they just clog up the aisles to the frustration to those not involved. I'd rather go to the seminar and then go out for food and an "adult beverage."
I think your teenage daughter would be entirely safe at a GH seminar. After the seminar, you could judge for yourself if the "after activity" was age appropriate. I doubt anyone would really be looking to get blasted. Gencon to my knowledge does not get rowdy drunk, ever, as most people are there to game and want to game and will get tossed from the convention and loose their entry badges (without refund) if they engage in non-crowd friendly behavior like staggering around drunk. Gencon is really very family friendly.
Thanks of a clearer picture of how things work at Gen Con. Sounds good! I do hope I would be able to attend next year. It would be nice to check things out and even meet a few people one corresoponds with over the next year here on Canonfire.
Appreciate the post.
Have a great day! _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Perhaps handing out classic black arm bands or black ribbons along with the proposed sheet so players can mourn LG demise and show support for GH.
Nice idea Crag! I wonder how cheaply such things could be printed up with the GH logo on them: "1972-2008: 36 years of D&D Gaming, slain by corporate goons" (or somesuch).
Another possible idea would be to run a bonafide Greyhawk Open, multi-round tourney, to help support the "dead" setting. Lots of folks here have participated in LG, and/or run games at home, so we're not short on DMs, and GH events tend to fill well during GenCon preregistration periods. _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Hmmm, if I dressed up as Iuz the Evil could I get a few volunteers from CF to carry me on a litter around Gencon? That would be so good on many levels.
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
) directly makes this connection.
Converting 1e/2e to 3.x is not that much of a hassle, but converting any of this to a game system that has nothing to do with them will be an annoyance. I'll look over the 4e PHB, but I highly doubt I'll buy it.
Let us count the ways! 