Canonfire!

Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:39 am Thornward

What information is there available on Thornward. Cannon or not.

Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:41 am Thornward

Canonfire! hosts two articles specifically about Thornward. The first is HERE with a link to the second.

The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has a few bits of information, too. If you follow the Living Greyhawk campaign, it assumes Ket left Thornward in 594 CY.

Don (Greyson)
Nyrond Triad

Sat Nov 24, 2007 12:56 pm

I can work with it; but I would like some convincing rationale why the other powers left thornward.

Veluna wants stability and peace, fine but a regionally powerful Gran March and Ket; what reason do they have to hand the strategic and economic plum back to bissel.

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:09 am

Well for a campaign I'm wanting to run I am keeping Thornward as a free city. None of the powers who are there would want to give it up or give it away to anyone else. I also have a very powerful NPC who is essentially the Boss Tweed of Thornward and has his fingers dipped into most of the pies there. He is also the power keeping it a Free City by playing one power group of of another while he builds a power base for other purposes.

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:15 am

I wasn't completely happy with that Canonfire write up. There was just too much corruption to make enough sense. I don't see why anyone would bother running any merchandise through there if you were going to lose half or even more of the profit just trying to get through the city. Not very cost effective. What I would do as far as corruption goes is more on the Illegal trade level. Basically it being a new Free city and having access to essentially all the markets of Greyhawk would draw quite a lot of parties that would want to move illegal goods in or out of the bordering countries. I could also see the other Free Cities in the Central Flaeness working behind the scenes to make things more difficult for Thornward by exerting influence through trade organizations and governments.

Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:55 pm

I agree; some cronism and graft is proable but the corrupt was excessive, although the merchant houses were well done, no mention of The Mouqollad Consortium.

If anything Ket has a real reason to maintain strict honest trade and show a disciplined face to the easterners for propaganda purposes if nothing else.

Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:26 pm I Agree

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:31 am

Yeah the city being divided would not only benefit the 4 main powers but other nations would find it beneficial too. Lets face it, Nyrond and both the North and Ahlissa would want to see Furyondy having to pay more attention to the west than looking back their way. Keoland would have some interest in that too with the rise of their old Satellite Gran March flexing it's muscles. Better to keep them looking North and Westwards. Iuz probably benefits the most from it with it's biggest threat having a political and potential military problem at it's back door. There was an old GURPS fantasy product called Tredroy which was city held in a three way power struggle between two Mid eastern type countries and a Western Styled one. It's good reading for anyone looking to do something here and gives a lot of good ideas for plots between power groups. Also taking a cue from the Al-Qadim books and Baklunish history, there would be more of a prevalence of Humanoids walking around openly as part of the one Faith's tenents could be the idea of tolerance and the desrie to bring all sentients into the light of the true faith. Especially with Hoblgoblin gurads walking around the Kettite quarter which is a touch I really liked. So I think it adds another layer to the mix.

Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 pm

I would disagree since Greyhawk does not have modern transportation.

IMO Furyondy's primary concern would be Iuz, rebuilding the northern borders and maintaing diplomatic ties with Furyondy's ally nations from the last war which included Greyhawk and Veluna. Most of the nations you are listing are several hundred or more miles away from the Furyondy borders and did not provide any meaningful war support. Moving a sizeable conventional force overland will be an involved process using Greyhawk mechanics.

Even with magic in Greyhawk "most" trade is slow since it is conducted by conventional means: animal laden or animal driven wagons and sailing ships.

Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:24 pm

When I read that description of Thornward, the first thing that pop into my mind is... CASABLANCA. This sounds exactly like wartime Morrocco, minus the Nazis and with more swords.

Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:16 pm

Exactly I saw a GH Casablanca; full of trade, information and spies. From a game pov a divided thornward makes an attractive breeding ground for adventure plot hooks.

As for the the four powers; Thornward is the major international trade hub. Veluna could leave thornward to concentrate on the north but even that is questionable, eternal crusades cost money. Gran March interests lie in a weakened bissel focused on the north; so they can flex there new found muscle in the region. Bissel is even less interesting because the KoW lose a rationale for its heavy handed treatment and icy hatred of the Bakluni which adds another layer to the mix. Finally Ket; once again the wars mean nothing besides it closes a convenient place to expose players to the exotic baklunish west.

Why would the bissel triad throw away an endless gold mine of adventure possibilities. Some things were overdone in the wars and had to be toned back for a sense of belief; IMO the Bissel invasion and sunsequent Thornward solution made sense and should have been used not abandoned.

Btw, loved the Ket hobgoblins - imagine the player reactions when the have to be polite and are ordered about by "monsters".

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:04 pm A Good Idea

Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:56 pm

I divided it a little differently with a section across the river from the main city and a "neutral" Island in the river. But that's just the way it worked out good for me. As far as tone, I see that part of Greyhawk being a lot like Eastern Europe. Especially Ket which would be like Romania and Yugoslavia under Turkish rule and making Thornward a lot like Budapest or even Prague. And with the opening up of the trade routes once again I see it almost having an Old West Boom town feel too with more and more people moving in to take advantage off the obvious opportunities. And with the Military camps outside there is an ever present need to take care of the troops. Also a lot of soldiers who muster out there might want to stay and join the civilian population. As far as the corruption is concerned there would definitly be a lot of greasing of palms but If it took a week for a caravan to make it through the city and losing a bunch of money from tariffs and bribes, why would you even bother stopping there? There would probably be one of the best black markets however with a lot of goods that are Illegal elsewhere being sold openly in a lot of cases or at least in the right district.

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:20 am

If your payday at the end of the caravan is big enough - it'd be worth the pain of the bribes they'd need to pay in Thornward. The kind of goods that would be transported along the Great Western Road are likely to be high value items like spices, silks and other luxuries.

Merchants can afford to take the hit because they can pass the expenses on to the rich nobles and urban elites who are their customers. The nobles pay for it by raising taxes - so ultimately, the ones paying for the corruption are the poor bloody peasants, as usual.

All that said - Thornward isn't the only route into the Flanaess. If the bribes get too bad, you'll start to see more and more traffic start to divert north through Perrenland. It's a risky business though, given the wildness of the mountains. Better to risk losing a percentage of your margin and a week in Thornward than your entire caravan to an ogre attack in the Yatils or Clatspurs.

P.

Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:10 pm

IIRC I heard somewhere that Thornward was off limits for each Triad and the area was like a "core" region. I admit it would have been great for at least Living Greyhawk Sheldomar metaregionals to be set there.

Mike