Sometimes I hear from netizens about the Greyhawk Overgod*.
I have read many 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition GH accessories and I've never found anything about this subject. Does he exist or it's some kind of joke? Have you found any references to him in GH products?
* I know that some supossed Tharizdun to be the Overgod, but I suppose it's only loose speculation. _________________ http://dnd.pl | Polish Dungeons and Dragons forum
That's an interesting question. I too, have never read anything in overt publications about a Greyhawk Overgod. That would be an issue of profound value and effect in Greyhawk at large. But, it might have little to bear against the myriad of personal campaigns being played out there.
It is an intersting subject, however. An overgod, like Illuvatar in Middle Earth or a Cronos/Zeus in Greek mythology.
Have you searched the Greytalk lists on the subject?
That would be an issue of profound value and effect in Greyhawk at large.
I have to admit that I am quite content without overgod in Greyhawk. I don't like some kind of supremely powerful Ao in my campaign. ;-)
But there's interesting idea in having an overgod without the real actual power - for example overgod in prison. A god which want to destroy his creation, for example. A god who was imprisoned by other gods to prevent absolute destruction. :twisted:
Tharizdun is obvious choice and I want to portray him in my campaign as such kind of supreme force of destruction. In my Greyhawk he's is beyond good and evil - he creates worlds and annihilates them to give life to another universes.... (One could think of Shiva the Destroyer for example)
I read some of the articles in Greytalk and found people suggesting that Forgotten One could be the Ubergod. But there were no references to GH books. _________________ http://dnd.pl | Polish Dungeons and Dragons forum
There are figures in Gygax's novels that may be analogous to the concept of an Overgod. Who are they? Lady Tolerance, Master Entropy, and Proctor Chronos are some. For summaries of these figures and much more, see Gord's Greyhawk, at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/gordmain.html.
First things first, Storm, bukwa, welcome to the forums :)
Secondly, I seem to recall something in the interview/article with Gary Gygax in the Oerth Journal (IIRC, #9) about the Elder Elemental Eye that suggested an overgod.
I'm too tired now to find the reference but I'll have a look tomorrow and get back to you... meanwhile, feel free to download the OJ's and find it yourself :) _________________ In more modern times, only Delglath of Rinloru is known to have crafted any items from the stone of this atrocious place. Even masters of the dark arts such as Xaene and Karoolck would hesitate to follow.
This reallly is a good idea. I have seen it used a bit differently than a true overgod. In one campaign I was in our DM along with one of the PC's started a religion/cult devoted to one of our assended PC's. This religion beleived that thier god was the one true god. The best twist in this story line was that a demon that had been a constant menace and villan in our caimpaign disguised herself and currupted the religion. During the trubles of the Greyhawk wars this religon gained quite a bit of influence. The really good bit was when the war ended and the established religions realised the power of the new Gods they moved to stop its spread. This made a lot on intruige and adventure as agents of the other gods moved to oppose this upstart.
In the end there obviously wasnt one overgod but this shows how well the idea could be used.
Cutter the Protector
Grugach God of Protection and Freedom
Personally, I favor coalitions of gods.....no one Overpower. Monotheism and D&D tend not to mix.
There are precedents for evolving from monotheism to a polytheistic system more compatible with D&D, however. The Greek pantheon was descended from a single entity, Gaia, who herself sprang from Chaos. Other accounts offer a different family tree, though most follow the path of one "divine" being yielding to many.
It doesn't seem that inappropriate to have something similar in a Greyhawk world -- as bukwa suggested, have Tharizdun represent the chaos that spawned existence, and wants to take it back.
I read on some forum that there's an FR source that claims Ao (the FR overgod) is responsible nor only for creating the realms & its deities, but also Krynn's, & Greyhawk's.
I find that hard to beleive but I personally like the idea. Its a good way to link the three worlds. _________________ Cutter the Protector
Grugach God of Protection and Freedom
I read on some forum that there's an FR source that claims Ao (the FR overgod) is responsible nor only for creating the realms & its deities, but also Krynn's, & Greyhawk's.
A FR source that claims what!?
I could see the Elder Elemental God but Ao! That's just too bizarre. Next thing you know, players will want to play LCerics of Cyric in Greyhawk.
I find that hard to beleive but I personally like the idea. Its a good way to link the three worlds.
Honestly, I'd prefer them left distinct.
Makes it easier to borrow stuff from another setting, you don't have to worry about the party going to that world and getting a massive deja-vu. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
Thats true but one of the best experiences I have had gaming is when character world hop. To me that is a heap of fun, and if there is an official link then all the better. _________________ Cutter the Protector
Grugach God of Protection and Freedom
I would like to direct you to a GreyTalk post I did a while ago. Search the archives for my post on Gygaxian Cosmogony, oops it has been deleted? _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
Well it seems silly in the way that it seems paradoxical. Be open to wisdom, and admit that you do not know everything. I will prove to you that the concept of the Overgod is not absurd, and even more that it is inherent of Greyhawk.
It is essential that we pass first through Cantor's axiomatic system for creating the natural numbers. George Cantor, one of the greatest mathematicians of the 19th century and founder of set theory, devised the axiomatic system that generates the natural numbers. Only the first three axioms are presented to understand the creation of finite numbers, metaphorically our universe. Three more axioms, not presented here, will be needed to understand the mysteries of infinity.
1. Axiom of Existence
There exists a set that has no elements.
2. Axiom of Equality
Two sets are equal if and only if they have the same elements.
3. Pair Axiom
There exists a set with elements two sets.
The first axiom, postulating the existence of the empty or null set, is the most important of all axioms. It provides all necessary ground to build our arithmetic system, and is considered to be the big-bang of set theory. Axioms 2 and 3 create the monad out of nothingness.
In the beginning was the empty set. Let's denote it by 0 or {}.
0 = {}
With the pair axiom we construct the set {0,0}, which by equality axiom is
{0}. Let's denote it by 1.
1 = {0}
With the pair axiom we construct the set {0,1}. Let's denote it by 2.
2 = {0, 1}
To construct number 3 we need a fourth axiom, the union axiom, thus 3 = {0, 1, 2}, and so on.
Cantor admitted that his intriguing theory is "rooted to the first infallible cause of all created things."
Now let us go through the Gygaxian Cosmogony! In the beginning, prior to the existence of time and space, was Iggwilv's Null Space! The non-place is defined in the Sea of Death novel. Visitors perceive it as shape without form, illumination without light, existing in timelessness. Inside it there exist no directions, places or discernible order. Iggwilv is not the creator of the Null Space. She can only access it by the means of a 10th level spell bearing her name. The spell enables her to tailor the "place" for 5 more occupants, capable to communicate with each other, plus few spectators, unable to decipher conversations. Master Entropy, a.k.a. All and Nothing, with his aspect of nothingness, is the sole and absolute ruler of the realm. No act of aggression is allowed to occur in the Null Space, as it will collapse at the second combat round, nullifying all occupants.
Laws of the Multiverse, analogue to Cantor's equality and pair axioms enabled Master Entropy of existence awareness, by identifying/equalizing himself with his double/pair, the Null Space. Nothing justly recognized what he really was, thus All was created! Thus, World of Greyhawk was created!
References
Sea of Death, by E. Gary Gygax
Learning to Reason: An Introduction to Logic, Sets, and Relations, by Nancy Rodgers
Creation Myths posted at greytalk by Samuel Weiss, Denis Tetreault, et al. _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
Except Magic defys logic and were right back to where we started from in the begining.
If you wnat to move beyond that. There a very coomon elements that don't work the same in our world as they do in Greyhawk and vice-versa. i.e gunpowder, no matter how you create it doesn't work, at all.
If the laws of the universe (our universe) cannot apply to the other, laws of logic shouldn't be assumed to apply equally as well.
Well it seems silly in the way that it seems paradoxical. Be open to wisdom, and admit that you do not know everything. I will prove to you that the concept of the Overgod is not absurd, and even more that it is inherent of Greyhawk.
It's absurd for there to be an OG anywhere. All the bamboozlement you tried pulling proves nothing.
I always viewed fantasy as being polytheistic. Adding on OG almost makes it monotheistic with tough angel types. No thanks! I much prefer polytheism in my games.
It's absurd for there to be an OG anywhere. All the bamboozlement you tried pulling proves nothing.
There is no problem Coplen pal; the OG is called All and Nothing, so if you do not want to see him that is fine, since he is also Nothing. But I really enjoyed the bamboozlement noun you used; I learned a new useful word and thank you for that. And all these disagreements and disputes are interesting, and can be modeled into game. But still the questions linger: Do you know everything? A wiser man than me once said “all I know is that I know nothing,” and another wiser than me man once said that “as I grow I learn more.” Is there anything I can be useful to you? What can I teach you? Do you have teachers, masters?
JCoplen wrote:
I always viewed fantasy as being polytheistic. Adding on OG almost makes it monotheistic with tough angel types. No thanks! I much prefer polytheism in my games.
It is true; as you said, the OG almost makes it monotheistic, which means that it almost keeps it polytheistic. Moreover, this OG, as Pluffet Smedger stated (I guess that you do respect him), is absent in the scholarly texts of Flanaess. It is supposed to be occult knowledge for the game (like Zagig’s occult studies, if you remember occult studies is one of his interests areas) that very few people know about him, and he would definitely be absent from the affairs of most mortals. His only involvement that we happen to know is in the Gord saga, and this you cannot deny. In the Gord saga, the gods plot to save Gord, Gellor, and Leda from the havoc that All and Nothing spread. Even in this unique recorded OG intervention case we have no monotheism, as many gods act in the saga, and in effect, this OG does not seem all powerful if this distracts you.
Herald wrote:
Except Magic defys logic and were right back to where we started from in the begining.
Back to you friend Herald! Your statement cannot be proved. No one yet knows what can be explained by logic and what cannot. There are results such as Godel’s incompleteness theorems (showing that there exist truths that they can neither be proven as true nor can they be proven as not false), but even these results cannot help to see if a proposition is provable. As humanity evolves we tend to know more things about the cosmos, and magic if it exists is part of the cosmos.
Herald wrote:
If you wnat to move beyond that. There a very coomon elements that don't work the same in our world as they do in Greyhawk and vice-versa. i.e gunpowder, no matter how you create it doesn't work, at all.
A clumsy example, the composition of the atmosphere of Oerth does not allow it to explode, read Greyspace and you will see why this happens.
Herald wrote:
If the laws of the universe (our universe) cannot apply to the other, laws of logic shouldn't be assumed to apply equally as well.
Things are a lot simpler than you think, the laws are the same. As far as I have studied the Greyhawk sources and the evolution of the world, the same laws of logic have been used by the designers. The product would not have been marketable if different laws of logic had been adopted, as very few could possibly follow the developmental logic of the world. But even if we have to agree with you, you must define these new laws. Define them, do a treatise based on the canon sources, and I will be the first to defend you, and build on your treatise.
Finally, I would like to communicate to all Greyhawk fans around the world a truth about our game. This truth is self provable from the Greyhawk definition point of view, possibly many have noticed it, and it is as simple as this:
"The commonality between the Earth and the world of Greyhawk are the outer planes, and all the structure beyond the prime material. Therefore, if a god can be justified in Earth, e.g. in occult texts or in some civilization traditions and myths, then this god is justified in Greyhawk also."
If I have the time plus encouragement, I will submit an article to Canonfire, or to whomever will ask me first to do so, regarding All and Nothing, the being that exists everywhere and nowhere.
Warm regards to all,
tzelios _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
I understand what you're saying, but we have a difference of opinion here. I go one way and you go the other. No biggie! You oughtta listen to my group when things turn towards religion in any way ('cept PC's as clerics).
As for the questions lingering - I know very little!
It's absurd for there to be an OG anywhere. All the bamboozlement you tried pulling proves nothing.
There is no problem Coplen pal; the OG is called All and Nothing, so if you do not want to see him that is fine, since he is also Nothing. But I really enjoyed the bamboozlement noun you used; I learned a new useful word and thank you for that. And all these disagreements and disputes are interesting, and can be modeled into game. But still the questions linger: Do you know everything? A wiser man than me once said “all I know is that I know nothing,” and another wiser than me man once said that “as I grow I learn more.” Is there anything I can be useful to you? What can I teach you? Do you have teachers, masters?
JCoplen wrote:
t your mixing canons. Gary Gygax would have never agreed to say that it's the atmosphere that prevents gunpowder from working. He just flat out said "It just doesn't work."
And therefore I don't have to defend my views.
But lets get back to the point. Science is used to prove what exists, not what doesn't exist. Magic transcends to succeed where science fails.
But wait let me go on, since you quote details of Greyhawk from materials post G.G.'s TSR.
At the end of Die, Vecna Die. Most of the Greyhawk Cosmomology is changed. Whole worlds and planes are wiped out and smome mearly vanish. Some gods and their planes have been moved and are no longer part of the great wheel.
In simple terms this was the writers way of clearing house. Gods that weren't constructed specifically for the Greyhawk Campaign world were stripped from the great wheel where they are, who knows? The Forgotton Realms dieties were all moved together into thier own cosmology. So in otherwords, The have thier own cosmos, we have ours and we don't mingle at all.
The 3e Manual of the Planes and 3e Dieties and Demigods backs this up. DDG gives examples of other panthions, but doesn't place them in Greyhawk.
But having said that, lets look at this from a player and writers standpoint. One overgod for all is a creative nightmare, at best all you have is an unknowing unresponsive diety that mearly sits like a capstone on other dieties.
At worst what you have is a bunch of unanswered questions. Why did the over god do this, why did he make that, ect, ect. I can't possibly imagine one diety making the Aztek panthion, the Viking Panthion, the Greek Panthion, Aboriginal Austrailian, ect, ect and being anything that would have any since of worth. The diety would seemingly be an alknowing bastard that likes to play games with gods as his chessmen and people as his pawns. What a distopian mess.
And just wait to you get to the point of conferming going in one direct or the other, it's going to be a mess.
The beauty of Greyhawk is that is so open ended. there are so many dirrections to take it.
Forgotton Realms and Dragonlance have had very pointed metaplots that have taken the worlds in very specific directions. Greyhawk for the most part has had very little (Greyhawk Wars excluded) in that sort of development. I and many others choose to play it because of that.
So in game reasons alone, your never going to sell me on that. You can get Steven Hawking to drop by and side with you all you want, it just doesn't work. (for me.)
I always viewed fantasy as being polytheistic. Adding on OG almost makes it monotheistic with tough angel types. No thanks! I much prefer polytheism in my games.
It is true; as you said, the OG almost makes it monotheistic, which means that it almost keeps it polytheistic. Moreover, this OG, as Pluffet Smedger stated (I guess that you do respect him), is absent in the scholarly texts of Flanaess. It is supposed to be occult knowledge for the game (like Zagig’s occult studies, if you remember occult studies is one of his interests areas) that very few people know about him, and he would definitely be absent from the affairs of most mortals. His only involvement that we happen to know is in the Gord saga, and this you cannot deny. In the Gord saga, the gods plot to save Gord, Gellor, and Leda from the havoc that All and Nothing spread. Even in this unique recorded OG intervention case we have no monotheism, as many gods act in the saga, and in effect, this OG does not seem all powerful if this distracts you.
Herald wrote:
Except Magic defys logic and were right back to where we started from in the begining.
Back to you friend Herald! Your statement cannot be proved. No one yet knows what can be explained by logic and what cannot. There are results such as Godel’s incompleteness theorems (showing that there exist truths that they can neither be proven as true nor can they be proven as not false), but even these results cannot help to see if a proposition is provable. As humanity evolves we tend to know more things about the cosmos, and magic if it exists is part of the cosmos.
Herald wrote:
If you wnat to move beyond that. There a very coomon elements that don't work the same in our world as they do in Greyhawk and vice-versa. i.e gunpowder, no matter how you create it doesn't work, at all.
A clumsy example, the composition of the atmosphere of Oerth does not allow it to explode, read Greyspace and you will see why this happens.
Herald wrote:
If the laws of the universe (our universe) cannot apply to the other, laws of logic shouldn't be assumed to apply equally as well.
Things are a lot simpler than you think, the laws are the same. As far as I have studied the Greyhawk sources and the evolution of the world, the same laws of logic have been used by the designers. The product would not have been marketable if different laws of logic had been adopted, as very few could possibly follow the developmental logic of the world. But even if we have to agree with you, you must define these new laws. Define them, do a treatise based on the canon sources, and I will be the first to defend you, and build on your treatise.
Finally, I would like to communicate to all Greyhawk fans around the world a truth about our game. This truth is self provable from the Greyhawk definition point of view, possibly many have noticed it, and it is as simple as this:
"The commonality between the Earth and the world of Greyhawk are the outer planes, and all the structure beyond the prime material. Therefore, if a god can be justified in Earth, e.g. in occult texts or in some civilization traditions and myths, then this god is justified in Greyhawk also."
If I have the time plus encouragement, I will submit an article to Canonfire, or to whomever will ask me first to do so, regarding All and Nothing, the being that exists everywhere and nowhere.
I have not read of one anywhere, and I have been a Greyhawk fan for many years, but if Tharidun was an aspect of a father god it would make sense: a duality of creation and entropy. It would also explain the insanity aspect. Tharizdun may not be insane, but from his view carrying out what is inevitable. He may be an ultimate test to determine the worthiness of life itself to exist.
A whole essay plus could be written on this line of Greyhawk/Oerth Philosophy.
As anyone here who has seen the majority of my posts will know, I am a huge fan of Big T. I like the Idea of him being an Over God as it makes a lot more sense as to why the gods felt him a big enough threat to imprison him. And that idea opens up other philosophical questions. If what he does is the natural cycle of creation and destruction, then the other gods stopping him from doing his job would be a bad thing? The gods imprisoning Tharizdun would then be an act of pure selfishness thus turning Tharizdun from the ultimate villain into a good guy or at least the wronged party in the dispute. I think it makes for a very interesting turn of events. Especially in a campaign where that is the overall focus. The players spend all there time foiling the plots of Tharizdun's worshipers only to find out that they are stopping the natural cycle of things. Do they then out the cycle back in motion or do they keep it stopped thus causing eventual stagnation. I think this would really cause a lot of soul searching for Druidic and ranger characters but could also make the paladins out there question if what they do is really for the greater good?
Hey, Cebrion! Do you have other Magic cards like thise one, I like the humor.
I think certain topic subjects are timeless, and other members' opinion worth reading even if they are 4 years old; it is also best that they do not fall into oblivion.
For me, I don't want to start a topic which was already posted earlier (with interesting point of view shared).
WEll he did post more than "I agree" and since his elabotarions are very muich on topic for this thread why not resurrect it instead of duplicating it?
Although no source I would consider canon specifies or states the existence of an OG, careful reading of the Gord books, especially those from Sea of Death onwards, would seem to permit the idea of an OG.
We see in those books that above the normal gods of the campaign world, certain enormously powerful entities embodying cosmological principles exist (ie. Entropy and so on). Reading through the lines we can see the possibility of those entities obeying rules higher than themselves. But the idea is further complicated because this OG postulated might not simply be personalized, he may be closer to some sort of First Principle, which might or not be active in the universe, a sort of Daoist First Tao. Some people do equate the Tao with God, others simply think of it as an impersonal set of principles.
All these discussions have little utility or reason if they do not impact our campaign world and play. If we don't think of them as advancing our game play, we might as well be discussing better things, and take up real world theology if we think that's apt.
In my GH, druids and certain secret societies of the Flanaess, with their counterparts outside the Flanaess in other areas of Oerth, are privy to some secrets which put them in opposition to most other religions and deities. Basically, they hold secrets to the cosmos and the final destination of souls, and tend to think of deities as just another set of beings that have, in this case, even greater abilities. Think of how Buddhists talk about Hindu Gods: yeah, they're powerful beings and may have influence on what's going of after death, but ultimately they're still tied to the wheel of karma. Thus, when souls are sent to the Outer Planes because those beings venerated gods and they claimed those souls, their progress through the reincarnation wheel is delayed, as they will linger on the outer planes for much longer than it would normally take them to reincarnate. This is, from the druids point of view, "not a good thing", and although they have learned for expediency to cooperate and even respect some of those deities, they see themselves as fundamentally different from clerics or other deistic philosophies. In some sense, this would mean that in my GH druids are the true representatives of a monotheistic, or perhaps even atheistic, philosophy, though they do not package their message as such for the "masses", and only some PCs might be privy to this. In addition, they know that some deities that are seen as separate, are in fact the same deity under different aspects. Even if they're of different alignments, such as a LE nd a NG deity.
Your mileage may vary, but mine is 30 per hex, since I still use the 83 boxed set. _________________ Lisbon Portugal<br />
As Maldin exposed it in his GUT, if there was an OverGod, why do peoples have to pray for "lesser" beings ? Why not speak directly to the top ? And in such a case, gods of Oerth are just like messenger with defined portfolio speaking for the OverGod. I do not think there are any references about this in GreyHawk books.
So if such a deity existed, for mere mortals it should be unreachable by whatever means. And this entity would probably not be interested in a little planet lost in the entire universe... So an OverGod looks more like a set of Rules which explains how the universe works. Therefore, it cannot be considered like a god but more like principles.
I must admit that I am a fan of Maldin's theory. It allies simplicity with high sophistication. _________________ What does not kill us, makes us stronger. Friedrich Nietzsche
There are figures in Gygax's novels that may be analogous to the concept of an Overgod. Who are they? Lady Tolerance, Master Entropy, and Proctor Chronos are some. For summaries of these figures and much more, see Gord's Greyhawk, at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze33gpz/gordmain.html.
There is a lock on your link, so what is th out come of these deities?
I'm not totally against thread necromancy, particulalry here at Canonfire! where the material is fairly static, but when people post new messages as if the thread and all of its posters are currently active in their posting(when they are clearly not), you tend to get more than a few irrelevant posts. So, look at who is currently active in their posting(i.e. check the date of their last post on the thread) and respond accordingly.
I haven't seen MtG around for some time, so sending a PM might be your best bet(he may not troll the forums that much currently, if at all). At any rate, here is a more current link to the material mtg was referring to ago in his nearly five year old link:
I'm not totally against thread necromancy, particulalry here at Canonfire! where the material is fairly static, but when people post new messages as if the thread and all of its posters are currently active in their posting(when they are clearly not), you tend to get more than a few irrelevant posts. So, look at who is currently active in their posting(i.e. check the date of their last post on the thread) and respond accordingly.
I haven't seen MtG around for some time, so sending a PM might be your best bet(he may not troll the forums that much currently, if at all). At any rate, here is a more current link to the material mtg was referring to ago in his nearly five year old link:
Thanks for the tips. I find there isn't much in the way to learn how to use anything here. Like how do you find a response to one of your posts if you do not check your email first? Trial and error, I suppose! I am used to people checking a blog they are a member of frequently. I assumed wrong! And as you point out, 2003, "IS" a long time to have posted something! LOL!
Thanks again, for informing me of Necromnacy threads? But it is ok. You do not have to tell me what it really means. I can figure it out!
Thread necromancy will usually be pointed out, but only with the intention of reminding the latest poster of how old a thread actually is(if it didn’t seem obvious they knew the age of the thread in the first place). Besides, even I occasionally forget to look at posting dates. Nobody is infallible.
If anybody does want to raise an an old thread from the dead, it would be best to preface their post with something like...
"I know this thread has been inactive for some time, but I'd like to discuss it, so here goes..."
or...
"Yeah, I know this thread is old, but I wanted to revel in my Necromancer mad skillz and talk about this topic. Anybody got a problem with that?! Yeah, that's what I thought! Now on the the discussion."
So, nobody need worry about threads being locked, posts deleted, or anything like that. Canonfire! is pretty freewheeling in that regard(within the limits of decency that is), so let the discussion continue. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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