I need your help. I am an older gamer (sigh) that is hoping to return to playing AD&D. I have always enjoyed the Greyhawk setting far more than any other setting. Should I stay with my vintage 1st and 2nd ed rules, or should I take the plunge and collect the 3.5 edition? In short, do the new rules translate over well, or should this old dog stay with what he knows. I will be using the Greyhawk setting, but didn't know if playing older modules with the new rules would work. Thanks for your time.
Well, I haven't switched to 3e and still play 2e, though there are quite a few 3E'ers here that could better explain module conversions to 3e. I hear tell of older edition module conversions that are available here and there like at ENWorld I think? I would say it's more a matter of what makes you comfortable. Such as, if you feel the urge to learn a new system or not. I think that's one of the main reasons I haven't changed. I just don't have the strength to learn a new set of rules and I'm comfortable with 2e.
Reasons to get 3E are if you're dissatisfied with AD&D, feel like trying something new, think you'd like a more complex and unified system better, or want to play with 3E players. Otherwise, 1st edition has the best synergy with the original World of Greyhawk, while 3E is built on a different sensibility.
I first played ADD in 1981. I played regularly until my military career began interfering with my gaming. In May I discovered the DnD3.5 Core rulebooks. I have been completely enchanted by the 3.5, and I have just(literally yesterday) found this sight.
Greyhawk was always a favorite, and I would recommend that any others like myself that have recently wandered out of the wilderness to give the 3.5 a Go.
Having played all three editions, I prefer 1st Edition with a bit of 2nd thrown in for colour. 3rd is fine, although I wouldn't fancy DMing it, but IMO it doesn't have the original flavour that I suspect you're craving in playing in Greyhawk. If you are going to be doing the conversions yourself, I'd stick to 1st/2nd, otherwise, as already mentioned, there are plenty of conversions posted in various places on the net if you look around.
I've played and DM'd 1e and 3e/3.5e and have found Greyhawk to be a perfectly wonderful setting in both.
If you're looking to pick up the new edition on the cheap, you should be able to find many copies of the 3.0 MM, PHB, and DMG in used gaming/book stores all over the place. You can save a substantial amount of money by purchasing those versions, then working from the 3.5 SRD if you want the most-current rules revisions (the SRD is free on the WOTC d20 site). _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
I would say, if you are comfortable w/ 1st or 2nd Ed. stick with them. There is no 3rd Ed. product support for Greyhawk, so why bother converting everything... (excluding DUNGEON mag, ofcourse)
Furthermore, why spend another $100+ for the same books with different rules? _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
I'm with Abysslin on this one stay with what your comfortable with. Regardless of edition. After all if the rules worked for you then then they should still work for you now! Me I use the 2nd edition rules with many of my own house rules thrown in of course. But that's my preference, and then like Abysslin stated you pay over $100.00 for rules you don't need and don't support the Greyhawk setting specifically. Now Dungeon magazine is the place where Greyhawk gets most of it's published support.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my message. I believe that I will stick with the 2ed books. I too find that the 3ed books have less of a Greyhawk feel (which is a darn shame!). I looked through the 3ed books and found them to be more directed towards the video game generation. This isn't a slam, just an observation. The 1st and 2nd ed books focused on you using your imagination more, imho.
I believe that I will stick with the 2ed books. I too find that the 3ed books have less of a Greyhawk feel (which is a darn shame!). I looked through the 3ed books and found them to be more directed towards the video game generation. This isn't a slam, just an observation. The 1st and 2nd ed books focused on you using your imagination more, imho.
Great! I think the posters above that make the point that Greyhawk doesn't have 3E support make a good point. Why make the change -- when you know there is little or no 3E support. Stick with what is working for you and your group.
I was really resistant to making the change to 3E a few years ago when Wizards made the announcement. In fact, I didn't make the change for nearly a year. Primary reason I changed was my new players were unable to locate 2E source material and rule books. After some discussion, I switched over.
Reason I've stayed? 3E offers a lot of customization. Monsters and characters both can be easily altered, added to or otherwise modified to fit DM needs. The character options especially (i.e. monster races, prestige classes etc..) fit well into my Greyhawk campaign.
Greyhawk doesn't have 3E support... Why make the change -- when you know there is little or no 3E support.
Actually, there is support for Greyhawk, but it's nowhere near concentrated. There's the Living Greyhawk campaign (though people's opinions of it vary), then there are various prestige classes and deity descriptions/domains that link up with Greyhawk.
Personally, I've always found Greyhawk to be what you make it, rather than a setting where you're spoonfed details. So, my Great Kingdom is progressing very nicely with the 3.5E rules, and I haven't ever regretted changing to 3E/3.5E.
DwarffromNyrond, at some point see if you can play or watch a 3.5E game. You might well not like it - plenty of 1E/2E players of AD&D haven't made the change. OTOH, you might find it superior, as I did. :)
Hackmaster is basically 1E + 2E + a bunch of other stuff to make rules lawyers jump with joy. :)
In design, it's very similar indeed (the rulebooks using great slabs of text from the 1E and 2E rulesbooks). However, it has a bunch of parody material in it that you have to ignore, and I find it overcomplex (and I have no problems with 3.5E!)
Generally, I don't recommend Hackmaster to anyone not familiar with the basic concept of the parody AD&D game.
Castles and Crusades will be very interesting when it comes out, but suffers from not being D&D and because AD&D is already there for existing players - though I dare say it will be a good system.
There are a lot of hardcore, old-school gamers out there who are playing Greyhawk with 1E or 2E or OD&D or Hackmaster. So . . . I was wondering if there is a similar number of hardcore gamers out there playing the old-school way but with other TSR settings from 1st Ed. I'm specifically thinking of Forgotten Realms.
Is there a Forgotten Realms version of Canonfire out there? With a whole mob of 1E gamers clutching there 1st Ed. FR greybox?
Somehow I don't think there is. Why would this be? Because FR has received lots of support? Or, because FR was not the original and the "real EGGy deal"?
Is there a Forgotten Realms version of Canonfire out there? With a whole mob of 1E gamers clutching there 1st Ed. FR greybox?
Somehow I don't think there is. Why would this be? Because FR has received lots of support? Or, because FR was not the original and the "real EGGy deal"?
Very interesting thought. GH is quite divided on editions, whereas to my knowledge FR fans seem to go with the flow. I know what little FR I played was grey box and 'd likely go back to it if I ever played again.
Actually, there is support for Greyhawk, but it's nowhere near concentrated. There's the Living Greyhawk campaign (though people's opinions of it vary), then there are various prestige classes and deity descriptions/domains that link up with Greyhawk. - Merric
If you'll check this original distinction I had said...
Quote:
There is no 3rd Ed. product support for Greyhawk
When's the last time the RPGA has put out any published (non-ebook) material for their living campaign open for the public to buy? Yeah...
Even if they were to publish the Living Campaign's content monthly, I would not buy it. I want official product, not other people's campaign material.
There's absolutely no reason for a Greyhawk group (not solo player looking to go to conventions, blah..blah..) happy with an 1st/2nd Ed (which are compatible, unlike 3rd) to switch to 3rd Ed. other than Dungeon Magazine. That's all there is to it... _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
Is there a Forgotten Realms version of Canonfire out there? With a whole mob of 1E gamers clutching there 1st Ed. FR greybox?
Whoa.. let's get one thing straight right away here... Canonfire is open for all editions and supporters of any product that is Greyhawk. _________________ Kneel before me, or you shall be KNELT!
The World of Greyhawk was created for D&D, and until the mid-1980s at least, AD&D and the World of Greyhawk were two sides of the same coin, complementary parts of the complete world. Whereas Ed Greenwood created the Realms before D&D and partially adapted it to D&D, then to AD&D 1st and 2nd, so it isn't as strongly tied to any ruleset. But there are certainly people who like the 1987-2000 published Realms better than the WotC version and use the AD&D rules (as Ed does) -- they're not all in one place but many post to REALMS-L and the canonfire.com boards.
Me and my group made the change to 3.5e. Like anything else it has it's good and bad points.
My players have enjoyed the change because of the amount of customization they are able to use when creating their characters. It allows for some things you wouldn't think about doing in previous editions (one player of mine was a rogue knifefighter type and actually didn't suck in combat) Overall I don't have to many problems with the system and it's nowhere near as cumbersome as it seemed upon first glancing at it.
However, it's a power gamer's fantasy. They can min/max to their heart's content. If I didn't have a good group of players who don't do the math and figure every maximum benefit for every small thing then I'd still be playing 2e. There's just alot of room for abuse as, like you said, it caters to the video game age.
Another thing, I only own the core books for 3.5e. I have no plans on purchasing any of the 3.5 crud that WotC churns out. Alot of it is...less than impressive to me. I don't play or DM in settings other than Greyhawk so their world specific stuff is a waste of money for me as well.
I do purchase stuff fom other D20 publishers however. And I've found a good deal of Necromancer Games modules work great for GH with some world specific adaptation thrown in and have used a number of their works in my campaigns.
Anyways, like everyone else said. Stick with 2e. 3.5e is alot of fun, but why change if you are still having s blast with what you know.
I am glad you are back playing. Greyhawk is a great setting... Greyhawk is a story and a place, rules are just that. Regardless of the rules editions there are some settings that have always been fundamentally flawed, because their story was flawed.
The subject of edition you use I find intriguing only for its silliness. Like many of you, I began playing when dwarf was a class. Each edition has its charm, but to be honest, in AD&D and 2nd Ed., our house rules were so voluminous, they made up another core book. Most of what we worked to correct was fixed in 3rd. I hated that all of that work went to waste, but in many ways I was happier with the 3rd ed., fixes.
The old system was fundamentally flawed from the very beginning. The creators were great story tellers, and had a great idea for letting a group of people sit down and participate in a wonderful tale, but their system was broken.
Dwarf, in answer to your original post, I and my group find that in 3rd edition, the rules are less present in the play. We can concentrate on the story at hand, and on what the characters are doing in that story, rather than finding the chart on pg. xyz of the DMG., and cross referencing that with the latest issue of Dragon and the house rule made three years ago. If you are still fluent in the old rules, you can save a few bucks, but there are many things that are improved in the new system. I for one do not know of anything lost with the change that cannot be fixed with the wave of the Magic DM wand. I have heard many people say that 3rd ed is terrible, but that is about as eloquent or detailed as their critiques have been. Oh, yeah, they don't want to buy the books.
There's absolutely no reason for a Greyhawk group (not solo player looking to go to conventions, blah..blah..) happy with an 1st/2nd Ed (which are compatible, unlike 3rd) to switch to 3rd Ed. other than Dungeon Magazine. That's all there is to it...
Hmm . . . I'm not so sure.
I was happy with 1E but updated to 2E.
Similarly, I was happy with 2E but updated to 3E.
I don't play in conventions either. Never have in my life.
So why did I update? Well, I think because I'm fascinated with how the game of Dungeons & Dragons is evolving with the times and how it is "advancing" with the new trends of RPG gaming as a whole. Sure, if 3E sucked I wouldn't be playing it. It didn't suck, however; and my group is having loads of fun.
Are we having more fun than we had in 1E or 2E? Hmm . . . I don't think so, but we're definitely enjoying the consistency of the 3E rules.
Last edited by dead on Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
I do purchase stuff fom other D20 publishers however. And I've found a good deal of Necromancer Games modules work great for GH with some world specific adaptation thrown in and have used a number of their works in my campaigns.
Yeah, a lot of 3E companies are churning out material with the full intention to keep the D&D "old school" feeling. Whether they're succeeding or not, I'm not sure.
The World of Greyhawk was created for D&D, and until the mid-1980s at least, AD&D and the World of Greyhawk were two sides of the same coin, complementary parts of the complete world.
Would you say that D&D = Greyhawk; and vice versa?
I've heard that Gary's/Rob Kuntz's home campaign was somewhat different to the published Greyhawk.
Similarly, Ed Greenwood's home campaign was somewhat different to the published Realms.
Perhaps the two are just as guilty of being "re-worked" to suit publication?
Nevertheless, GH's my favorite. I'm just trying to get a grasp of the generally held opinion that GH is the definitive D&D experience while something like FR isn't.
I wouldn't quite say D&D = Greyhawk, even for the Gygaxian Greyhawk I'm talking about. But the World of Greyhawk is where D&D was playtested, and where all the assumptions of the rules, such as huge multi-level dungeons, are exemplified. This is why the publication of the Greyhawk Castle dungeons as Castle Zagyg is so important: that place is the crucible of D&D. When the AD&D books discuss how to run a campaign and how the game's societies work, it's Greyhawk that's being described; the DMG encounter tables are those of Greyhawk dungeons, city, and wilderness.
Yes, the home campaign was different. The geography of the 1980 Folio was worked up by Gary for that product (except the Nyr Dyv region which is much as the original campaign's), but the campaign soon switched to the published map. The pantheon took shape gradually; some details such as accurate PC stats deliberately weren't published. None of this impinges on the essence of Greyhawk or (A)D&D, though; and of course after Gary left, the WoG's direction changed.
Whereas it was TSR who altered Ed's Realms to suit their own purposes, adding Vaasa and Damara and Doug Niles's Moonshaes and Kara-Tur, moving Evermeet closer to the mainland, etc. etc. During 2nd edition, which began two years after the first Realms campaign set, there was no singular AD&D as there'd been under Gary, but multiple philosophies of play and worldbuilding, pretty much one for every campaign world. The Realms certainly influenced the mainstream of D&D, Ed's "Pages from the Mages" and "Ecology" articles for instance, and TSR at some points did use it as an all-purpose world (or you could say a dumping ground), but it was never identified with the ruleset as Greyhawk was.
Whereas it was TSR who altered Ed's Realms to suit their own purposes, adding Vaasa and Damara and Doug Niles's Moonshaes and Kara-Tur, moving Evermeet closer to the mainland, etc. etc. During 2nd edition, which began two years after the first Realms campaign set, there was no singular AD&D as there'd been under Gary, but multiple philosophies of play and worldbuilding, pretty much one for every campaign world.
Ya, the Realms certainly has that "Let's make it up as we go along" feeling. That's why I pretty much only like the 1E Realms box.
It's really interesting reading the history of the game. I played 1st Ed AD&D, and yes, there were some problems (18 str character's best missile weapon was the Dart?).
I tried to play 2nd Ed, but didn't have the books, and too much had changed for me. Yes, there were some neat classes, but it didn't "work" for me. Admittedly, I didnt' give it much of a chance.
Six months ago, I got in a game with a bunch of 3.5 players in a FR campaign. It's not quite what I'm used to (both in rules and campaign setting), but it's close enough.
Having gotten past the learning curve, I really like the 3.5 ruleset. Combat makes much more sense now, and there are less "DM rulings". On the other hand, it is possible to min-max a character into a truly ridiculous being. So a good DM is still the most important element in the game.
As for FR: Personally, I can't stand it. Too many plot threads going on. Too much to learn. Frankly, I like the Greyhawk setting pre-cataclysm (okay, it wasn't a cataclysm, but everything did change). That's why I'm now running a Yeomanry campaign. The Yeo. is one of the few areas that wasn't totally transformed in the wars (and I have a thing for free republics).
My take on the Greyhawk Wars era is that the writers who botched the FR got ahold of GH and went to town. "Hey, we could do this, and stir up trouble here, and screw with these folks...." Like a player character really cares about all that. He's just trying to kill a few Orcs, impress the barmaids, and make enough gold to buy that suit of armor in the window at "Armor B Us".
Anyway, this is what happens when you post at 3 AM. Where was I?
Oh, yeah. Get ahold of the 3.5 SRD from Wizards. It's basically all the core rules. Tag along at a game. Hell, try to play in one and see if it makes sense. It took me two sessions to make real heads or tales of the rules, but when I did, it all "clicked".
The big question I have is, can you find 2nd Ed players in your area?
Telas, your suggestion to join a 3.5 game is excellent. I disagree about the Greyhawk wars though, but let me explain why.
I have always wondered what a 20th level elf who is (effectively) in his early 20's does for a living. And where do they go in the WoGH? In every game that I have ever played in, we went from adventure to adventure, to dungeon, to forest, etc. Characters are 12th, 17th or 20th in a few short game years, even if the campaign took longer. This was because we always started at 1st in CY whateverTSRsaiditwas.
Down time was just long enough to heal, tell every one about the guild you just started, and then head back off. This was the scenerio even in the most active role playing games (vs. hack and slash).
In my current Greyhawk campaign, I am slowing it down. But the game is winding down. My next game will begin 100 years ago. And it will end in CY whatever we are at when they hit 20th level. I will use down time to make up the difference, but people will age, time will go on, etc. There will be a place for children in this scenerio, maybe for grandchildren.
My point is, you can go backwards in GH as far as you wish, to your favorite time, and let it roll forward. If you do not like the GH Wars, you never have to roll the calender forward that far. But you could use the rumblings as a hook. Let them prevent the wars, or start them. But, as player and DM, in all my previous GH campaigns (dear god 23 years worth now,) the characters have ended up doing something world changing, from starting wars, to killing demigods, to invading hell. What else do you do at 20th level.
Honestly, the GH Wars is a better overall plot hook that anything that I ever created, and gives IMHO a better playground for high levels than the world in CY 560.
I do use 2e, but when I rarely write I do it on 1e. Since you are an old timer you are certainly pationate with the old stuff. Go ebay and fill the gaps of your collection. You should also buy the LGG and also search for the LGJ's, to see what's going on know. Do not switch to 3e at the moment. The rule system is not important, Greyhawk is important. Find material of the world that you do not have.
Good Luck,
tzelios _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
I can absolutely see what you mean by picking the time that's right. On my last trip home, I found my old 1983 WoGHFS, and I even thought about using it.
Actually, my current campaign starts in the summer of 586 CY. Potential long-term hooks include the Scarlet Brotherhood (seig, Heil!), the discovery of the tunnel in the SW Yeomanry, whatever stirred up the Giants in the Jotuns, exploring the edges of the Hellfurnaces for evidence of Human civilizations from over a century ago (the last time the Yeomanry was mostly overrun), and what kind of corruption the Mayor is up to this week.
Basically, the far-off wars have about as much to do with the PCs (at least until 9th level or so), as the Iraq war has to do with me in Austin, TX. It's there, it's the source of a lot of discussion, but it's Really Not My Problem. (This is neither an attack nor a defense of it, just an observation.)
Which is the "lazy DM" method of handling it, I guess....
Anyway, back to the topic. I, too, always had the rapidfire campaign, where we had saved the world countless times before the age of 30. This one is different. Every day will be accounted for, NPCs will recur and react to the party's actions, and politics will definitely intrude. Frankly, this is one campaign that I'm glad I'm not running a Paladin in.
And that, I think, is the joy to Greyhawk. The detail is scalable, and there is room for material from almost any source.
And you can play it with almost any version of D&D. I'm okay with 3.5, mainly because there's all kinds of software out there to put together stat blocks, etc.
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