I have made a critical decision in regards to indulging in my favorite childhood pastime/hobby. Originally, I believed that I would stay with 2ed material. I have decided I will change with the times and begin anew with 3E v3.5 My concern is simple: how do I prevent my players from min/max their characters?
I had played one game before in 3E and my 5th lvl (sigh) Rogue...no, thief, darn it! Yes, my 5th lvl Thief had a magic shortsword +1. On average I was doing 6 hp's of damage. The 6th lvl Barbarian in the group was averaging damage on the magnitude of 75 hp's and missed only on a three or less. Now obviously something was not kosher. I was shocked and asked the DM about this after the game. He assured me that everything was legal and that causing massive damage was a benefit of being a barbarian.
You can see my concern. I think the first part in providing for an enjoyable game is to prevent this type of rules abuse, if it was rules abuse. I am reading over the rules right now. Any advice would be *greatly* appreciated.
My concern is simple: how do I prevent my players from min/max their characters?
The 6th lvl Barbarian in the group was averaging damage on the magnitude of 75 hp's and missed only on a three or less. He assured me that everything was legal and that causing massive damage was a benefit of being a barbarian.
I'm using 3E (haven't moved up to 3.5 yet) -- and I think you had a bad DM. 75hp dmg in ONE hit from a 6th lvl character??? NOT legal. At least not in any kind of 3E/3.5E game I've heard of. Unless the Barbarian had massive STR and magical weapons I'm not sure how a 6th lvl character was doing this kind of damage with that kind of attack bonus.
This isn't typical DwarffromNyrond.
The whole min/max thing happens in ANY version of D&D -- it isn't something unique to 3E / 3.5E. It is one of the jobs (and an important one at that) of a good DM -- to maintain the balance of the game by ensuring that such things do not occur. The DMG makes several good suggestions on how to deal with out of control PCs and players. You should read over those -- 1st Chapter.
Couple of things I've found helpful:
1. Use the Standard Point Buy system when your PCs create their characters.
2. Limit Prestige classes to only the most essential ones -- and demand that players have good role-playing reasons for taking on such prestige classes -- not just "It's so cool!". I ask my players to submit a 1 page summary of their reasons / background for the prestige class and then use that in encounters etc to keep them honest.
3. Limit monster races. Believe it or not, I had a player try to convince me that a Drider/Rogue/Barbarian was a good choice for my low-magic middle-ages urban campaign. Uh, no. (But new or bad DMs get caught, and give in -- next thing you know, you have a very unbalanced game world and party).
4. Limit alignment choices. Normally I ask for GOOD (at a minimum) and lawful or neutral good from characters that I think might be a bit advanced or too powerful as compared to other PCs. This way I have an in game tool readily available to question any "immoral" or questionable tactics.
5. Advance your monsters! 3E is great for this. Orcs are NOT cannon-fodder in 3E. If you advance the class (usually warrior) of the typical orc (or whatever), you soon have a very deadly monster that is equal to any min/maxed out party. Hey, if the PCs are doing it, your monsters should be doing it too! All of a sudden your players realize that lone orc in the room isn't going to be all that easy to deal with!
75 points of damage at 6th level isn't that unusual if it's the occasional max damage critical hit, but 75 points for an average doesn't seem right. In one of the first 3E games I played in a 1st level barbarian in our party scored 57 points of damage on one of his first attack rolls. It was the first indication of how different the power level for 3E was compared to the games I was used to.
Scott
75 points of damage at 6th level isn't that unusual if it's the occasional max damage critical hit, but 75 points for an average doesn't seem right. In one of the first 3E games I played in a 1st level barbarian in our party scored 57 points of damage on one of his first attack rolls. It was the first indication of how different the power level for 3E was compared to the games I was used to.
Scott
This would only be when the Barbarian is in a "rage" and the Barbarian Rage ability is only useable once per day at 1st level and only last for approx. 7 rounds (given an average CON of 14 increased to 18 in the rage). But then the barbarian character is "fatigued" (-2STR; -2DEX) for the same number of rounds he was in a rage. That balances out IMO.
While I can see how at 6th lvl this ability would give the barbarian character a significant damage ability -- ROUTINE hits for 75hp dmg at 6th lvl still indicates "un-sound" adjudicating by the DM somewhere IMO.
And I think a review of the character classes by the DM would highlight these abilities, and a good DM could then provide some balancing measure in game -- such as barbarian monsters. Sure, a PCs gonna give out 75hp dmg, but when that is coming back at him, I find that most PCs begin to play a lot more cautiously. Advance your monsters by a level or two into thier respective classes -- but I would stress the need to review character classes, ability scores and their effects on your campaign as the first step before agreeing to having that character in your game. _________________ "Hordes of Dragons!" d|~|b D&D 3.5E Greyhawk Campaign: http://ca.geocities.com/thewave@rogers.com/ D&D 3.5E Dragonlance Campaign: http://www.geocities.com/da_wav/
There was no rage involved, or else it would have been more damage. It was a barbarian using a great axe two-handed that scored max damage on a critical hit with the power attack feat.
Scott
And this is the crux of my problem. In my Greyhawk campaign, I always felt that the characters should be concerned with the monsters in caves, dungeons and tombs. Take Ogres for example. Dumb? Maybe. Ferocious? You bet. So when the party comes to the adventure climax and face off against the Ogre, it's one big swipe and Mr. Ogre is dead b/c there is a character that can deal out an unimaginable amount of damage at a low level.
I don't want to take on the "Me vs. Them" attitude, but I *almost* have to if I want to provide a challanging adventure or campaign. Obviously I can place more focus on role playing, but sometimes the group may just want to do a good old dungeon crawl. I simply see an inconsistency in the game mechanics at lower levels. To counter things, I could make advanced monsters (sound idea). But wouldn't the WoG be overrun with big nasty brutes?
Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but I want my players to have as much fun in my WoG as I did. They don't have to have the same fun, but I want it to be challanging for them. I guess I'll just have to carfully review everything beforehand. Plan on me coming to you folks for plenty of advice
Yup power attack getting increased with a critical is bad enough but in 3.5 Power attack got even more powerful when two handed I believe. Why they did this is beyond me.
Even with these seemingly crazy abilities don't worry about providing a challenge for you party. Characters may be "bigger, faster, stronger" but so are the critters.
Sure, the barbaraian *might* be able to tople that ogre with a lucky strike but that ogre has reach and could very well pound the barbarian into the ground before the guy even got close enough to take a swing at him.
There's no need to take a "Me against them" approach to the game. Just learn a critter's capabilities and be sure to use them, otherwise they're just fodder.
There's no need to take a "Me against them" approach to the game. Just learn a critter's capabilities and be sure to use them, otherwise they're just fodder.
Heya DangerDwarf,
The old ways are the best ways. Old advice is good advice. I will certainly do what you suggest. I completely overlooked reach (d'oh!). Suddenly, a group of goblins using poisoned weapons are all very very dangerous again....and so is that ogre toting the club made from a small oak tree and a tombstone. Thanks for your help!
As a side note. I remember after my group first made the switch to 3e they had grown a bit overconfident with all their nifty feats. So, when they first came across an ogre (they had just made 2nd lvl) they went charging in, they had forgotten about reach as well and the ogre managed to brutalize them.
To this day they still remember getting their rear handed to them by that ogre and in campaigns since it's been funny to see them come across another one.
Figther #1: Ok, you charge the ogre and I'll follow you in.
Fighter #2: I don't think so, I'm pretty sure I went last time.
Fighter #1: No, that one didn't count, little sneak thief there poked him in the back and got his attention that time. It's still your turn.
Fighter #2: You know, there's probably not much of interest in that cave anyways...
Fighter #1: Yeah, you're right. How about we go track down those goblin's who've been hassling the village.
There's no need to take a "Me against them" approach to the game.
I agree. Knowing your critters is key. But do not mistake my style for "me against them". DMs need to be fully aware of game balance and ALL the tools available to them to maintain it. The DMG makes this very clear -- the DM needs to be fully aware of game balance and keep tweeking things to ensure balance is maintained. Run-away players/PCs or over powerful monsters is no fun for anyone. Characters who are fully developed (i.e. min/maxed) demand monsters who are just as developed. Players and DMs in my experience tend to "dumb-down" monsters -- not taking as much time on them as players do on PCs. I put just as much time into figuring out the best options for my monsters as my players do for their PCs. This often results in surprising encounters for my PCs as they tend to encounter well prepared monsters and NPCs.
My understanding of the 3.5 MM is that it details tactics and "best options" for monsters -- that may help a lot too DwarffromNyrond. _________________ "Hordes of Dragons!" d|~|b D&D 3.5E Greyhawk Campaign: http://ca.geocities.com/thewave@rogers.com/ D&D 3.5E Dragonlance Campaign: http://www.geocities.com/da_wav/
It's nice to see someone from the old guard actually making the effort to understand the new edition before turning into a total grognard and displaying signs of Gene Weigelism :)
d20 is both much simpler (everything is based on a simple mechanic, roll vs. DC) and much more complex (far more options leads to greater complexity). So you get the good with the bad.
Personally, I feel that as long as you don't get bogged down in the mechanics, and remember to use the rules to have fun, rather than prevent fun, then d20 is a much richer game experience than previous editions, because it gives much greater variety, especially in combat situations.
I highly recommend adopting miniatures and a square battle grid, and maybe even some Dwarven Forge (or if on a budget, World Works) as combined with the d20 tactical rules, it makes for a lot of fun at the table. You get all the fun of a regular D&D game, plus all the fun of a wargame, at one sitting :) _________________ In more modern times, only Delglath of Rinloru is known to have crafted any items from the stone of this atrocious place. Even masters of the dark arts such as Xaene and Karoolck would hesitate to follow.
Just a quick caution... I too was worried about the conversion, and had heard horror stories about overpowered characters. I was terribly wrong!!! I started a campaign, and was skeptical. By third level, the party had done well against every encounter, and was dealing out significant amounts of damage.
I decided that I wasn't challenging my players, and that they were overpowered. I added 30 hp to an ettin in a side trek of a published mod, giving him a total of 95 hp (el 5 normally). My party was freshly rested and fully healed, and actually had a fair amount of magic and potions because they had just finished the climactic ending ending of the module. This was just supposed to be a diversion as they went back to sell and tell the town how they had saved it from death and destruction.
Result... near Total Party Kill. Six of seven 3rd & 4th level characters dead in a very short gaming session. The seventh character escaped with 3 hps, thanks to invisibility.
I am rather thick skulled, and have done this not once, but twice. My party wades through endless hordes of huminoids and undead, then are wiped out by a goblin cleric!!
My suggestion is, do not worry too much about the super characters. The system is well balanced, and always knocks them down a notch, without the DM ever being vindictive. If they seem to be consistently destroying all opposition, then change it up some: add ethereal, damage resistant, or really smart monsters. My characters always seem happiest when they have out fought something with good tactics and brilliant strategy; rather than waded through or outlasted something (well, most of them anyway).
I play a barbarian in another campaign (must've forgotten the name of the setting), and extreme damage with a greataxe is inded a possibility, but not a probability.
However the Barb is a one-trick pony. Put him up against a lot of Orcs with spears and see what happens (charge = pincushion). If he's Power Attacking, he's losing AC, which he doesn't have a lot of to begin with.
If you really want to frustrate a barbarian, Charm him and turn him on the party. How's that Will save, Sven?
Finally, take advantage of the terrain. One of the most aggravating fights in my life was charging up a scree slope (quarter move, Dex save vs. sliding each round) with Kobolds slinging at us. Once we got past halfway, a Shaman Webbed us. Check the Web definition if you want to see 3.5's version of "pain in the butt".
Oh, and we didn't even land a single HP of damage on the Kobolds. They retreated (laughing) when we got there. Remember, monsters may not be smart, but they are clever.
It is possible to min/max anything. Remember the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and Darts? Or everyone in a party of six getting a melee shot at the bad guys, even though it's only a ten-foot corridor? The cure for cheating is good DMing, and once you get used to it, 3.5 isn't as bad as the horror stories say.
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