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Master Greytalker
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Posts: 725
From: Montevideo, Minnesota, US
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:59 pm
GSL has finally been Posted
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WOTC has finally produced the GSL many people have been waiting for. It is in PDF form. Here is the necessary link to get you there.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/welcome
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Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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Joined: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 2592
From: Ullinois
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:57 pm
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At best I think this belongs in the 4E GH forum. Carry on folks.
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Black Hand of Oblivion
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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From: So. Cal
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:10 pm
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Generic complaints deleted. Please keep the discussion on the apsects of the 4e GSL/SRD. Constructive discussion seems to the be the point of the thread, so let's keep it to that.
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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From: SW Missouri
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:17 pm
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In that case, as I have said on the TLG forums I worry what this is going to do for 3rd party companies. There is wording there that seems to have been intentionally left ambiguous for the sake of WOTC coming in and stopping any line it feels like. The following especially:
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| 6.1 OGL Product Conversion. If Licensee has entered into the “Open Gaming License version 1.0” with Wizards (“OGL”), and Licensee has previously published a product under the OGL (each an “OGL Product”), Licensee may publish a Licensed Product subject to this License that features the same or similar title, product line trademark, or contents as such OGL Product (each such OGL Product, a “Converted OGL Product”, and each such Licensed Product, a “Conversion”). Upon the first publication date of a Conversion, Licensee will cease all manufacturing and publication of the corresponding Converted OGL Product and all other OGL Products which are part of the same product line as the Converted OGL Product, as reasonably determined by Wizards (“Converted OGL Product Line”). Licensee explicitly agrees that it will not thereafter manufacture or publish any portion of the Converted OGL Product Line, or any products that would be considered part of a Converted OGL Product Line (as reasonably determined by Wizards) pursuant to the OGL. Licensee may continue to distribute and sell-off all remaining physical inventory of a Converted OGL Product Line after the corresponding Conversion is published, but will, as of such date, cease all publication, distribution and sale (and ensure that third party affiliates of Licensee cease their publication, distribution and sale) of any element of a Converted OGL Product Line in any electronic downloadable format. For the avoidance of doubt, (a) any OGL Product that is not part of a Converted OGL Product Line may continue to be manufactured, published, sold and distributed pursuant to the OGL; and (b) this Section 6.1 will survive termination of this Agreement. |
Emphasis mine.
What does this do for fan material like the Oerth Journal? Will it have to choose between 4e and other editions? Will a new publication be needed? I'm not liking the looks of this.
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Julian<div><br /></div><div><br /></div>
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Black Hand of Oblivion
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:54 pm
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It affects The Oerth Journal not at all. Can WotC force you not to write a story about D&D and post in on the intarweb? No, they cannot. It is pretty much the same thing with The Oerth Journal. The Oerth Journal staff is not paid, and neither are the contribuing authors. It is a purely philanthropic, fan-driven project done out of the kindness of our tiny stone-like hearts. Consequently, we have no worries about the 4e GSL. 
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Aug 14, 2005
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From: SW Missouri
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:57 pm
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I hope for it's sake you're right. As soon as stats go in there is alot they may try. I however, don't have such a goody goody feeling about it.
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Julian<div><br /></div><div><br /></div>
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Black Hand of Oblivion
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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From: So. Cal
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:18 am
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The Oerth Journal has contained stats on all manner of things for many years prior to the release of 4e, as have all manner of D&D fan sites. All of these things have supported TSR/WotC products over the years, and their value in promoting the game is obvious to anyone. That is why they have been "allowed" to operate so long as they don't blatantly violate WotC's IP.
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Apprentice Greytalker
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:51 pm
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| Cebrion wrote: |
| The Oerth Journal has contained stats on all manner of things for many years prior to the release of 4e, as have all manner of D&D fan sites. All of these things have supported TSR/WotC products over the years, and their value in promoting the game is obvious to anyone. That is why they have been "allowed" to operate so long as they don't blatantly violate WotC's IP. |
"...have been allowed..."
From the GSL FAQ:
Q. What do I do on my website if I can not use the GSL?
A. Wizards will release a fansite policy in the future that will offer a limited license for specified uses. Websites are not licensed under the GSL.
I would wager that the more likely a website is to compete with their online content, the less likely they are to allow it.
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Apprentice Greytalker
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From: SW Missouri
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:49 pm
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Exactly my point. They have pretty much been trying to kill openness with this new license. I'd say fansites where the proverbial 'milk' is gotten for free will be clamped down on as well.
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Julian<div><br /></div><div><br /></div>
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:03 pm
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I'm not worried about it, as it is just the distribution and use of the 4e rules content that is being clamped down upon, and that makes total sense. Lucas didn't try to shut down Star Wars fan sites as he is not an idiot and could see that fan sites are a free, self-perpetuating support platform for his creations. I have enough faith in the people at WotC that they realize this as well. It is not in their best interest to be drop the hammer on the fan community so to speak. It's not like they are selling a needed commodity after all. Everyone can easily do without anything WotC makes. Besides, considering the mess that is Gleemax(the D&D section of the site was down *yet again* today), it looks like they need all the help they can get.
I'll start to worry when representatives of Hasbro/WotC show up on the Senate floor trying to stop fan sites from discussing their products or posting derivative content, or bring a case to the Supreme Court. If WotC really wants to kill 4e, they'll try to play hard ball with the fan sites. Everyone will simply move away from 4e in droves to 3.5 OGL, Pathfinder RPG, or some other game system/company altogether that is more than happy to have fans to support what they do at no cost to them.
The new GSL is limiting enough that I will not be surprised if companies choose not to do anything with it. I for one would not be too keen on purchasing a product where every other sentence is something like "Hazard: Treacherous Ice Sheet (see the D&D 4E Dungeon Master’s Guide)." or "Adamantine Strike (Level 27 Fighter Encounter Attack Exploit; see the D&D 4E Player’s Handbook.)" when one considers that the GSL doesn't even allow these quotes to be accompanied by a page number in the core books for easy reference. This is not what I would call a surefire recipe for a user friendly product. There are indeed some very draconian restraints placed upon anyone wishing to actually publish material under the GSL. I'm not expecting to see very much second party 4e material appear on the market because of this.
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Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Black Hand of Oblivion
Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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From: So. Cal
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:15 pm
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| Armitage wrote: |
"...have been allowed..."
From the GSL FAQ:
Q. What do I do on my website if I can not use the GSL?
A. Wizards will release a fansite policy in the future that will offer a limited license for specified uses. Websites are not licensed under the GSL.
I would wager that the more likely a website is to compete with their online content, the less likely they are to allow it. |
I expect this will be geared at maintaining how they want any 4e derivitive material presented, and not geared at curtailing fan sites and their content. Once we actually see what the guidelines for such fan site material is, then we will discuss what will be done.
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:23 am
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| Cebrion wrote: |
| I'll start to worry when representatives of Hasbro/WotC show up on the Senate floor trying to stop fan sites from discussing their products or posting derivative content, or bring a case to the Supreme Court. |
They don't have to do anything so meladramatic. Just send a "cease & decist" letter from one of their dozens of on-staff attorneys. TSR did it back in the day, and you just try to put up anything connected with RIFTS even today.
It all depends on how the fansite licensing document reads, and we haven't seen it yet.
Joe
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My AD&D Greyhawk blog: http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com
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Apprentice Greytalker
Joined: Apr 18, 2005
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From: Adelaide, South Australia
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:15 am
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I really wouldn't be concerned about fansites diappearing - and I seriously doubt Wizards would want that. They are good for the game and I think that they would not view them as competition but free advertising.
EnWorld has a recent post (Thurs 19th June) that really hits the nail on the head when it comes to the GSL. It kills a lot of misconceptions.
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:26 pm
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There are hundreds of posts that have been made on the 19th. It would be best to 1. post a link to the thread that the post is in, and 2. give the number of the post(it is at the top right of every single post). Most poeple aren't going to spend an hour looking about on the site, hoping they will stumble upon what you are referring to. So, please post some links and specific info.
Yes, people have the misconception that the GSL applies to fan-related things. It doesn't. It only applies to companies wishing to produce and sell things that contain 4e content. It's really that simple people.
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Apprentice Greytalker
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Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:00 pm
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I wish I had your optimism in them. I don't trust that the same company that would put out such a restrictive, dominating and limiting license would look at fan sites with no interest. I expect restrictions. These are not people with any interest in Greyhawk or the fans beyond the bottom line. Don't be fooled.
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Julian<div><br /></div><div><br /></div>
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Adept Greytalker
Joined: May 14, 2003
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From: the Free City of Dyvers (Kansas City, MO)
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Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:50 am
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Alright, folks, look at it. WotC is a company; that means they want to make money. The new GSL is a smart way to protect their profit margin while allowing designers to make game product based on their material. The OGL and even the STL were too open, and as a result people were able to make new games that directly competed with D&D using its own system. In hindsight, that was a bad move. So the GSL itself is good, and smart for WotC. They must jealously guard their property. That's business. As to fan material - things should be as they largely have been; don't tread on their copyrights and you're fine. Produce material that adds to the game, distributed for free, and doesn't seek to undermine, damage or infringe upon the WotC intellectual properties, and everyone is happy. I think a lot of people here are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Oh, and 4E sucks.
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Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
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Black Hand of Oblivion
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Sat Jun 21, 2008 3:55 am
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I agree on the over reaction. Julian surely is in the running for the "Obsidian Obex" award for the role of "Doomsayer of the Year".
And anyways, there is always parody- Long live GREYFINCH!
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Grandmaster Greytalker
Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:31 am
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| Cebrion wrote: |
| I agree on the over reaction. Julian surely is in the running for the "Obsidian Obex" award for the role of "Doomsayer of the Year". |
Dang! And I was getting my tux ready for the awards show. Actually I'm probably still in the running for my role of Hypocrite of the Year since I was poo-pooing 4e even at the end of last month, and I just played my first 4e game last week, and I played a tiefling wizard *hangs head in shame*.  AND I had a great time!
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