Canonfire!

Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:02 pm Heironeous and Hextor

I had a discussion about them late in chat Thursday. I am fuzzy, who were their fathers reputedly?

Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:21 pm

I don't think we know, Mort. You and I [and somebody else] discussed possibilities.

Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:35 am

Wasn't me... I had a few, she was looking good, one thing led to another... it wasn't me Wink

Sorry couldn't help myself. Laughing

AG

Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:20 am

I did a lot of history for the two in my campaign. Heironeous was a Charlemagne-type figure for the ancient Oeridians. They had the same father, but different mothers. Their father had united many of the Oeridian tribes, but upon his death, the tribes were split between the two brothers, which led to a series of wars. Eventually Heironeous united all of the tribes, and his reign was the high point of pre-migration Oeridian history.

Scott

Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:45 am

I don't think there's any official hint about who their fathers might have been. Their mother is Stern Alia.

I like the idea that their fathers were Erythnul and Velnius, personally, though it's also tempting to have them as the sons of an archdevil and a powerful celestial.

Sat Aug 02, 2008 1:54 pm

Velnius seems like a good fit. That would tie them in to teh wind gods- speaking of which- do the wind/seasonal deities have a mother?

Should Hextor's father have been evil? Hextor turned to evil after his falling out with his brother,right? Maybe then we don't need an evil father at all- his becoming evil was entirely by choice and not inheritance. I dunno. I do like the archdevil idea [which I've supported in the past].

Are we sure they are half-brothers, and not just brothers? Canon source for this?

Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:45 pm

Erythnul is the more ancient war deity; I like the idea he has a grudge against both heironeous and hextor for supplanting his position with the oeridians without adding an "edipus complex" to the situation. If their parentage is important I would suggest it is known to the brothers. Velnius for Heironeous and Erythnul for Hextor. Although given the convoluted divine bloodlines does a parent-offspring relationship mean anything in GH.

I just don't want a moment like this:
You killed my father Erythnul;
No Hextor - I am your father

Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:49 pm

Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:50 pm

Who says they need a father?

Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:53 pm

Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:19 pm

Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:27 pm

Eww? That's almost de rigeur in divine circles :P Though if you mean She's actually a hermaphrodite who literally self impregnated, then you would be a little out there....

Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:13 pm

Case in point: Zeus broght forth Athena (or was it Artemis? I keep forgetting) by splitting his head open when he had a migrane. Not your standard way of giving birth, but she always refers to him as 'father' in the mythology. Confused

No reason something similar couldn't have happened in Greyhawk.

Sat Aug 02, 2008 10:51 pm

Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:59 am

...just for the record....

Shocked

"If" I was the father, not saying that I am, but if I was... Wink

...I am not evil...maybe mildly derranged, but not evil. A couple of beers make people do the darnest things Happy

AG

Sun Aug 03, 2008 2:30 am

...ok, a more mature approach to the issue at hand Wink

, my two pence worth would be to try and remain relevant to the kind of mythology Heir & Hex follow, which by some impressions, is Greek or Roman in base principle, hence "Charlemagne-type figure for the ancient Oeridians", very Byzantium.

Gods sired God-lings, like Apollo (Heironeous) is the son of Zeus and Leto, while Dionysus (Hextor) is made to be a son of Zeus and Semele. This is just a comparison, so nobody go and flip out on this being an insinuation or such, it’s just an example.

Cebrion, I disagree, I feel there needs to be a father or fathers, so keeping with the idea of two different fathers, one mother (Stern Alia) or reverse it, my point being, however it gets established, it should make practical biological sense, gamers/people identify/relate better with this.

How one son becomes evil or is inherently evil should be established in canon of that particular deity, is there not already material out there that supports this for Hextor... a very early “The Dragon” mag article comes to mind, I’ll search it out and come back to this.

Lots of great approaches, but I like the idea of a more identifiable and Byzantium mythological approach.

My two pence worth.

I'll be back!

AG Cool

Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:45 am

Whoever their fathers are, for some reason they aren't telling for sure. With Erythnul as Hextor's father (which I favor) I don't doubt that he wouldn't want to claim responsibility since his son later supplanted him. Heironeous father is tougher. Velnius makes a good choice for me because of the lightning bolt thing, although that gives the impression that Heironeous, or at least his priesthood, knows who his father is. The same argument could be made for Procan though since he is a storm god and I assume in ancient days didn't have his sea aspect. We can assume that Stern Alia was a mortal at some point so I'd favor a Romulus and Remus type deal except instead of having one father (Mars) the half-brothers had two. Maybe Procan was smitten by the mortal Stern Alia, seduced her in disguise, and unlike bigmouth Zeus, didn't go bragging about it to everyone. Erythnul (whom I've pegged as Procan's brother), also in disguise, got jealous and *ahem* ravished Stern Alia. Through some divine mojo she ended up pregnant at the same time. I go with that since there is no real hint that I've seen which of the brothers is eldest. Stern Alia could tell by their features and characters that the fathers were different, but she doesn't know for sure who the two gods were even to this day. She probably has her suspicions though.

Sun Aug 03, 2008 8:49 am

Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:20 am

Since the original descriptions have Heironeous choosing good and Hextor choosing evil, doesn’t the Heironeous being sired by a good god and Hextor an evil one angle seem a little trite? If that were the case it would seem that those alignments would be, nearly, preordained.
I don’t like the divine parentage option with these guys. I see them as both being ascended mortals who chose different paths.

Scott

Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:34 am

Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:51 am

I wouldn't say most of the Oeridian pantheon was made up of ascended mortals, but it works for these two, IMO.
And I would definitely say that the Oeridian pantheon needs a lot if filling in. See the "Conflict between the Ethnic Pantheons" thread for my opinion on the ancient pantheons.

Scott

Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:42 pm

Dang half brothers. Mortal fathers would be good, so they would be demi-gods that didn't live on the prime(Alia didn't squeeze them out as meteors that fell to Oerth or anything Wink

) and that were reared as godlings(receiving various blessings from the Lords of Light and Darkness respectively) from the get-go.

Sun Aug 03, 2008 7:16 pm

I suppose another possibility could be that one of them has a father and the other was conceived through parthenogenesis (in the way that Ares was supposed to be Hera's son alone). That would make them half-brothers too.

Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:52 am

I always got the sense that Hextor chose an evil nature out of jealousy and as a challenge to heironeous. Even their doctrines oppose each other. Of course Hextor can rationaize, he isn't evil he is practical war is about victory and destroying the enemy not intellectual concepts like honour.

For a group of tribes traveling into unknown hostile lands the idea that victory and survival are more important then honour and chivalric combat must have been very appealing to the realists among the oeridian warriors. No wonder Hextor attracted a faithful following.

Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:01 am

Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:25 am

I am not rationalizing away evil acts but few people who commit evil acts consider themselves evil. Most view themselves through their own rationales so they can live with themselves. The rationale of Hextor; he is a realist and protecting his people from the chivalric warfare nonsense his brother espouses.

Not every follower of Hextor is a blood crazed sociopath; no doubt they also view themselves and the faith as being honest about the horrors of war. Without the need to soften the truth with heroic traditions simply because some lack the courage to accept the brutal truth of combat.

Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:33 am

With a person, I would say that was true, but since we're discussing an evil god, that lives on an evil plane, has titles that include Champion of Evil and Herald of Hell, my opinion is that he's fairly comfortable with his evilness.

Scott

Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:17 pm Re: Heironeous and Hextor

Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:46 pm

Fair enough ScottG in his desire to one up his rival half-brother Hextor became a champion of evil but the majority of his folloewers could still find professional value within his teaching without being blood crazed lunatics.

Sorry GVD; personally I like Zarus and he works well in the far west as you've described him adds some needed uniqueness. However from the beginning an error; Zarus a pale imitator of Zeus - Zarus deserves better. The whole Hextor and Hieroneous rivalry is an early cornerstones of the divine pantheons within GH. Things can be twisted so far especially when their are other acceptable explainations - The simplest answer is sometimes the best.

Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:41 am

Did this go anywhere?

Sat Jul 11, 2009 3:22 pm

Apparently not on this thread. There are many threads on Hextor/Heironeous in the various forums, and most of them are not wholly embedded in game edition discussion, even if the thread shows up in a game edition specific forum. Sometimes threads develop into articles, so try searching the site for articles related to the topic you are interested in by using the left margin Search CF! function. Use the *NEW* Search the Forums link at the top left of the center box of any forum page to search *just the forums* for your topic of interest.

Lastly, threadomancy with no posting of relevance is frowned upon. Apparently the thread petered out at this point, as people had said all they wanted to say about it.
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Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:46 am