Let me preface this post by saying that I am exceptionally grateful for all of your support, time, energy and effort in both helping guide me in previous posts and keeping the wonderful world of Greyhawk alive. It is certainly a testament to the character of the participants, both individually and as a community, concerning the setting that we all enjoy. With that being said, I need your valuable perspective(s) and support once more.
I am creating a new 3E 3.5v campaign set in the World of Greyhawk. At this moment, I have a minor adventure planned out to see how the PC's work together and to get a more firm grip on the rules. I believe in KISS. I am working on the larger scope of things, from a political standpoint too. I am planning this campaign to be after the Greyhwak Wars. Things have stablized, but nations have lost much of their ability to wage control in their lands. Yes, on paper, Ulek is the ruling authority in this neck of the woods. I don't think that the inhabitants of the Orc town/outpost overthere (points to the left) care.
The Elves iirc were vaguely silent during the Greyhawk Wars. To this end, I will have the Elves be far less common then perhaps they once were before the Greyhawk Wars. The court at Celene has sealed it's borders and Elves are less.....accepting of other non elven folks as they once were too. My question is, what has the elves of Celene been up to? I'm sure this question has already been asked, but I'm trying to catch up.
Thanks for your input and help.
I believe the 'official' answer is that the elves, with their long memories, are still recovering emotionally from the Hateful Wars, with occured roughly a century ago and led to the humanoids that now inhabit the pomarj being driven from the lortmils.
There's two facets to this: One, the elves and their dwarven and human allies suffered great losses. Yolande personally lost her beloved (not sure if he was her husband, or just a lover). The elves, with their dwindling numbers, are reluctant to engage in futher wars that will sacrifice great numbers of their young men and women.
Secondly, the elves commited some rather atrocious acts, not the least of which included slaughtering an entire city (the lost city of the suss) of degenerate humans. While the savage nature of the Hateful Wars probably justified these acts, the elves are not comfortable with being driven to such brutality, which they had not seen awakened in themselves since their own schism wars aeons ago that led to the creation of the drow and the unseelie court of gods.
So it's most likely that the elves are involved in heavy internal debate. Turrosh Mak is no small threat, and the elven dislike of orcs makes him even harder to ignore, but the older, more conservative elves argue that planning the path of least risk is important.
Unless Turrosh suddenly turns his focus away from the Principality of Ulek and mounts a major offensive directly into Celene (which he hasn't done yet), it's not likely that the elves will change their nuetral stance any time soon.
Keep in mind though, according to the LGG, the Knights of Luna, an elven knighthood lede by Prince (Melf) Brightflame, cousin of Yolande herself, are very active in the post wars international arena, lending aid to Prince Corond of Ulek and other needy neighbors. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
Unless Turrosh suddenly turns his focus away from the Principality of Ulek and mounts a major offensive directly into Celene (which he hasn't done yet), it's not likely that the elves will change their nuetral stance any time soon.
*chuckles*
In my last campaign the characters had heard rumors of the Ring of the Pomarj. They toyed with the idea of seeking it out and (not knowing that it only works for evil types) raising up a horde of humanoids to fling at Celene and hopefully provoke them into action.
I was intrigued by the idea but alas...the elf punk in the party was set against it.
IMO, Turrosh has the ring of the pomarj, that's how he assembled his horde so quickly and began conquering the other tribes. His leadership and success has kept the horde assembled beyond the ring's duration. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
I agree with you there and it makes far better sense than the whole Slaver debacle. Seriously, reynolds took one of the, in my opinion, coolest rising villains and made him a joke.
The most common touted reason for Celene's lack of action in my campaign is,
"They're a bunch of limp wristed, leaf eatin', prettied up sissies who are skeered to lift an arm for any reason other than pattin' themselves on their no good yeller backs!"
Albeit this is the standard tirade of dwarves from Ulek. For those needing a bit more insight than that my reasons fairly resemble those given by Chat above. Though in my campaign it is slightly more sinister.
I have a group of ultra-conservative elves who have been counciling the Queen for quite some time about the increasing need of elven isolationism. While opposed on some levels to the extent of what they claim is needed Yolande does see merit in some of their proposals and has put into motion some of their plans.
During the Battle of Celene Pass when runners were dispatched to both Ulek and Celene a runner did get word of the plight to the elven Commander Jevrail. Jevrail was going to mobilize his force and go to the League of Right's aid but was intimidated by the ultra-conservatives into ignoring the plea and later claiming that he never recieved word. The ultra-consesrvatives did so because they believed that initial involvement would have stirred something within the Queen and led to Celene joining the war.
I've not fully developed the whole "conservative conspiracy" motive for my campaign or even decided if it is for more sinister reasons or not allthough with my newly started campaign it will likely lead me to do so.
Thanks for the input. I'm sure if I got off my lazy backside I could have done some research and found an answer to my own question Your answers have helped me greatly in providing a strong foundation (in my opinion) for my campaign. I appreciate your help!
I Miss the Wild Coast,
DwarffromNyrond
PS- In your opinion, how do other Elves across the Flaness regard the Court of Yolande?
The most common touted reason for Celene's lack of action in my campaign is,
"They're a bunch of limp wristed, leaf eatin', prettied up sissies who are skeered to lift an arm for any reason other than pattin' themselves on their no good yeller backs!"
Yeah, that sounds like the dwarves of Ulek all right, although I imagine they get on better with the elves of the Duchy than they do with Celene. Needless to say, it's a grossly inaccurate, foolish and stupid generalization, much like a certain country on this side of the Atlantic has for a certain country in Europe.
Sorry-I'm just sick of all the French jokes, given that I'm Canadian and all. :P
DangerDwarf wrote:
I have a group of ultra-conservative elves who have been counciling the Queen for quite some time about the increasing need of elven isolationism. While opposed on some levels to the extent of what they claim is needed Yolande does see merit in some of their proposals and has put into motion some of their plans.
That's an interesting way to go about it, and it begs the question: Do these conservative elves really loathe humans and dwarves, or are they just acting to preserve anything and everything they can for themselves, fearing their eventual disappearance? My own People of the Testing and conservative elves are less concerned with wiping out their "bearded enemies" than with repairing the rifts caused between the many elven peoples by Sehanine Moonbow's foolishness so long ago. They're trying to unite the elven race, and maintain their peoples' ancestral homelands and traditions for the coming generations.
Displacing the humans of Lendore Isle might be regrettable, but it has to be done so that the elves may prosper. The People who instigated the coup probably just assumed the humans would be taken in by their neighbors. The fact that many elves deplored the Peoples' actions both here and during the Hateful Wars illustrates the heart of the dispute.
The elves agree on what they must do to save themselves, but strongly disagree on how to do it. Some elves openly advocate working with humans, gnomes, and halflings, thinking that they can do so without abandoning their heritage. Other elves feel that they have to re-create the ancient ideal that the Seldarine abandoned, and cannot wait for any "promised son" to come along and save their people. They have to do it themselves, and while they bear no ill will to other races except dwarves (for the most part), these conservative elves are willing to resort to extreme actions such as murder and even mass invasions to do it. If the elven peoples are going to have a Renaissance or some sort of Golden Age ahead of them (as I think they should, since IMC they never have), they can't sit around on their duffs waiting for the "High King" prophesied by the last valley elf king and seers from several different elven realms-they have to act now.
(The "High King", for the record, is an idea I have going that one day an elf will be born that will at last unite all his people and heal the rifts between them, bringing them home to the Seldarine, thus ensuring a new golden age of happiness and prosperity. Sort of like any messianic figures IRL, although it's flagrantly obvious that there's no comparison between this and any RL religious figures.)
That's an interesting way to go about it, and it begs the question: Do these conservative elves really loathe humans and dwarves, or are they just acting to preserve anything and everything they can for themselves, fearing their eventual disappearance?
Loathing of the humans or dwarves has nothing to do with it in my campaign. It's more of an agenda of self preservation through any means necessary. Understandable but excessive and ultimately less than noble.
Right now I'm trying to decide to which depths these ultras will sink for their goal of presevervation. In my current game there is a character who is a grey elf with Celene that is abhorred by the seemingly coarse attitude of the royal court and is probably going to seek membership in the Knights of Luna. So as this progresses I'll be filling out more details as to the reasoning of the court.
Quote:
Yeah, that sounds like the dwarves of Ulek all right, although I imagine they get on better with the elves of the Duchy than they do with Celene.
Yeah, and even the grouchiest of dwarves who take to the field of battle against Mak's forces admit appreciation for the Knights of Luna's assistance on the front.
Also, the Battle of Celene pass in my campaign is sort of a rallying call for dwarves fighting today (think like "Remember the Alamo!") and it is recognized that some elves from Celene were present during the battle as well (which in the dwarve's minds makes Celene's inaction even worse). Basically the dwarves are hoping that Melf and the Knights can gain control of Celene's military and "get them elves right!"
I've also read somewhere that the elves of Celene, particularly those who worship Sehanine, are investigating a way to make Celene into a Fading Land, thus weakening ties to Oerth and magically preventing the average evil types from posing any threat.
With their longevity encouraging the grey elves to take the 'long view' of political matters, they figure that, once their country is safe, they can take a hand in interfering in the affairs of men and strike back at evil from a safe haven.
In my current game there is a character who is a grey elf with Celene that is abhorred by the seemingly coarse attitude of the royal court and is probably going to seek membership in the Knights of Luna.
Hi,
In a previous game one character (a grey elf Ftr/Wiz) was recruited as a member of the KoL for his deeds fighting the forces of the ToEE. Then his characters became an NPC. Now, some years later, he's back, supporting a party of adventurers fight against the forces of evil in the GH wars.
Saludos,
Gabriel _________________ Discord: @GrillWizard
I too am on old gamer since the chainmail pamphlets. In my world Celene retreated from the wars for pragmatic reasons. My elves take two years to gestate and 10 to walk 100 to mature. Births are rare, a village of 100 males might have 15-20 young. So the death of 200 elves in the 1st year of the wars(my campain) represents the the entire new adult elven warriors of the nation! (20,000 elves). With a SERIOUS threat on the foot of her lands, Celene(the last elven nation in flanaess) rightly closed her borders and increased border securtity.
By comparison, Furyondy lost 28,000 warriors in the wars, over 2 years. By my worlds math this has the nation of 350K, hurt but still growing. Also in my world I have the Ulek nations more understanding of the Queens position.
I also added some gray elven intrigue and political manuvering and had a sighting of drow amongst Maks scouts. I like elves in my campain so am not entertaining the exodus that seems to be in the canon.
I liked a previous posters idea of the fading lands, that would be a superior last resort for me to use in my campain.
Whatever you do I like that you are looking for a flavourful backdrop and political motivations(no wonder you enjoy greyhawk) As you know this provides rationales for actions in the larger campain, enriching the gaming experience. I am off-canon quite a bit in my worlds, but so is every good campain I've been in.
Hope you keep enjoying the world you make,
Thanks for your help. It's interesting b/c I too was going to play the Drow card with Celene. I can only imagine what Celene would do if say maybe 6-7 minor nobles and courtesans showed up dead one day by the hands of the Drow. Can we say...."Lock Down?"
Thanks for your help. It's interesting b/c I too was going to play the Drow card with Celene. I can only imagine what Celene would do if say maybe 6-7 minor nobles and courtesans showed up dead one day by the hands of the Drow. Can we say...."Lock Down?"
No Problem, DwarffromNyrond,
IMHO the dwarves and the drow are far to underdeveloped or supported, as much as I love GH. Think of it, Greyhawk and dungeon crawl are the peanut butter and jellly of gaming, yet the 2 most cavernly societies are rarely mentioned.(except Q series).
Humans dominate GH to a greater extent than a lot of other fantasy settings, especially FR. I can't see human dominance not make the elves extremely concious of the possible repercussions from meddling with human affairs. GH demi-humans are so much in decline as marginal. Power rests with humans and getting involved in their affairs can get you squashed.
If memory serves, Yolande is caught up in the practice of the Fey Mysteries and also doesn't want more elves dying in human wars.
It also can't help that GH elves are oh so Tolkien in their "Testing," "Calling Away," and "Leaving," essentially abandoning the Flaneass in some number, or perhaps "repositioning" themselves on the edges would be a better way of putting it.
In any case, Drawmij apparently has some information on this as he among the Circle of 8 is on good terms with the Court of Celene. Players could use him as a contact or her could employ them perhaps.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
Your answers have helped me greatly in providing a strong foundation (in my opinion) for my campaign. I appreciate your help!
