4e Greyhawk (coming earliest 2010, latest 2012) will restart the setting in circa 576CY.
There will be no timeline advance. Rather, there will be a timeline retrograde.
In the restart, the Flanaess will be reimagined. Everything that has “happened” in published products will “never have happened” unless it is specifically reincorporated in the restarted setting.
The Greyhawk Wars will never have occurred. There will never have been demon armies rampaging all over. However, Iuz will be on the march and the “bad guy of the North.”
The Scarlet Brotherhood will never have been “outed” by going for an empire. It will be a “general” bad guy found everywhere - sneaky, silent, unseen.
The Great Kingdom will be caught in a quasi-civil war with lots of politics, magic and religion. No undead animus rulers. No United Kingdom of Ahlissa. No Great Kingdom of the North. Medegia is not a wasteland. The Iron League and Nyrond stand opposed. Its “old school” 83Greyhawk in this area with the volume turned up to 11.
The Sheldomar Valley (Keoland and smaller states) will be “monster central” as monsters (giants, dragons, drow etc.) attack civilization relentlessly. Think Points of Light dialed all the way up.
The City of Greyhawk will be the “center of it all” where things start or come together. Everything in D&D will fit somewhere in the central region of the Flanaess around Greyhawk to include the Wild Coast (Turrosh-Mak and the Empire of the Pomarj will never have happened). The Circle of Eight will function as a premade “mission control.”
Celene will be moved into the Feywild with the addition of Eladrins. Celene will be sort of like a “fortress” from which fey forces sally forth to fight evil.
The Bandit Kingdoms and the Rift Canyon will be “dungeon-land” where all things dungeony can be readily found. Lots of dragons too. Speaking of which.
Dragonborn will be incorporated. They will be from “off the map” to the south in the Amedio/Hepmonaland.
The Tieflings will be incorporated. They will not be monolithic, as in a nation. Rather, they will have origins in the Horned Society, the Sea of Dust, the Lands of Iuz, the Land of Black Ice etc. Essentially, where there are evil planar influences, there will be Tieflings. More on this below.
The idea is to compartmentalize Greyhawk into the ultimate “classic play” menu of a setting with “zones”:
What to kill monsters? Play in the Sheldomar.
Want heroics and politics with evil wizards and evil high priests oppressing people who must be stopped? Play in the Great Kingdom, Nyrond or the Iron League.
Want to oppose the One Big Evil Guy? Play in the north against Iuz.
Want to go exploring ancient ruins and dugeons, see the BK and the Rift Canyon.
Want everything in one spot? One organizing principle? Play in the City of Greyhawk/Central Flanaess - adventure-in-can-land.
This split will essentially “define” Greyhawk as the Flanaess. Other areas will be marginalized (the Baklunish West as “genie-land” the exception). There will also be some geographical changes to Oerth (but I have no sense of the extent or details at this moment).
The cosmology of Greyhawk will not be the Great Wheel. Given the premise of the restart, Greyhawk’s cosmology will be 4e standard and will have “always been that way.”
The new cosmology will also be the restarted Greyhawk’s “McGuffin” or new animating force. The restart described above is intended to “keep Greyhawk as Greyhawk.” On top of that will be “the hook” that can neatly summarize the setting - why do you play here?
Tharizdun will be name to conjure with - The Fight Against the Dark God! But in the process, Tharizdun will function almost as a convenient means to introduce numerous other planar elements, in the sense that PCs must traverse the planes and deal with planar incursions into Greyhawk as a necessary part of - The Fight Against the Dark God! Its almost Greyhawk meets Planescape. Sort of. Maybe better to say Planescape (but not 2e Planescape in any pure sense, rather The PLANES) within a Greyhawk context or frame. The idea is that the planar aspect will not be so pronounced (more subtle) as to overpower the Greyhawk elements; the Greyhawk elements are to remain the focus but with a very strong planar theme. However, individual designs are unpredictable, naturally.
So saying, the above is only what I have been able to suss out post-Con Season (and I’m not infallable by any means) and is waaaaay in advance of the range of release dates. Stuff could change. However, I feel comfortable posting the foregoing and saying at this time “Remember, you heard it here first.”
I’m not altogether sanguine about this 4eHawk, largely because it trashes the idea of established “canon,” intentionally just as the 100 year timeline advance did in the Realms. I get the “logic” but as a long time fan I can only think of this as “OtherHawk.” Still, I will admit I see some cool possibilities here. I just wish I knew about potential geographical changes to make the map of the Flanaess appear “cooler” and immediately “new.”
And if you want to say I’m off my rocker. That I’m speculating or delusional. That I don’t know jack. Or worse. (Well, maybe not worse) Go ahead. Please just remember all that when we are discussing “OtherHawk” in a few years and recall, “You heard it here first.” Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly. _________________ GVD
4e Greyhawk (coming earliest 2010, latest 2012) will restart the setting in circa 576CY.
I’m not altogether sanguine about this 4eHawk, largely because it trashes the idea of established “canon,” intentionally just as the 100 year timeline advance did in the Realms. I get the “logic” but as a long time fan I can only think of this as “OtherHawk.” Still, I will admit I see some cool possibilities here. I just wish I knew about potential geographical changes to make the map of the Flanaess appear “cooler” and immediately “new.”
And if you want to say I’m off my rocker. That I’m speculating or delusional. That I don’t know jack. Or worse. (Well, maybe not worse) Go ahead. Please just remember all that when we are discussing “OtherHawk” in a few years and recall, “You heard it here first.” Who knows? It could be cool. Possibly.
Please, please, PLEASE tell me gnomes and halflings, as well as bards and all the other traditional D&D classes are still part of the Flanaess, and that dragonborn and eladrin are not!
Hi all -
I first saw Star Wars in 1979. In 1979 I first played D&D and fell in love with the Flanaess. But with the release of The Clone Wars I've begun to realize that Star Wars has died for me as a fan. Greyhawk has been dying as well. With the loss of D&D as a property that supports Greyhawk, and with the loss of D&D itself for a more organic and realized game in Pathfinder, I feel that Greyhawk is also dying. For me, that is.
So maybe Greyhawk isn't yet dead, but it will be even more fragmented than ever before if what GVD states comes to pass. _________________ Theocrat Issak
Well, as long as this site remains true to the Greyhawk as I have grown with and accept , then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
However, should this site turn its material to this "proposed" 4th Ed devastation, then it will be the end of it for me, for I wish to remember GH as it has developed up to now...
My second reaction was a little more along the lines of, oh cool, this may mean that they are going to doing a streamlined series of canon events ala Dragonlance as opposed to the haphazard way its' been handled in the past. So I may be able to actually go through all of those things I missed growing up as opposed to running the retrograde 10-20 years after the fact like I have been.
Also, it may give me the opportunity to run this mirrorland game I've dreamed about doing for years. You know those Star Trek episodes where the evil twin from the alternate dimension were everythng is the exact opposite comes through. Kinda like Rolibilars alter ego Rolyball or Balero, or Valero what ever the **** his name is in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk is called.
So, my reaction is a bit mixed. On one hand I am hoping that they make a re-releaase of the earlier Against the Giants series, but on the otherhand those were classics and I am afraind they'll just muck it up like they did with Expedition to the DemonWebPits
Interesting to say the least -- not sure I like the idea of retrograding Greyhawk, though. I could certainly see other, more natural ways to bring Greyhawk to 4E.
I'd alos like to at least have a hint of the source or sources of this info, at least some idea that there is a kernal of truth in there somewhere, not just fanciful imaginaries.
Maybe this is an opportunity for input, rather than hair pulling?
Am thinking this Site represents a vocal, if not statistical, majority of the current Greyhawk fan base, and maybe a constructive submission to WotC might hit a (hip-pocket) nerve?
Clearly, they're not going to republish the LGG with 4E stats in it, and are looking for a new audience for GH - but maybe we can help curb some of the more sweeping changes that we think might make GH 4E so unusable to us stalwarts of the milieu?
Perhaps if those Sages with closer connections to the folks at WotC can find an avenue for input, and we generate enough activity on this and other fan sites, we could keep it cool, rather hoping they see the light...
So saying, the above is only what I have been able to suss out post-Con Season (and I’m not infallable by any means) and is waaaaay in advance of the range of release dates. Stuff could change. However, I feel comfortable posting the foregoing and saying at this time “Remember, you heard it here first.”
So GVD, is this pure speculation on your part or are parts of what you stated from seminars @ GenCon, or from insider sources, etc., etc.? Just curious! :D _________________ Allan Grohe<br />https://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html<br />https://grodog.blogspot.com/
Well, as long as this site remains true to the Greyhawk as I have grown with and accept , then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
However, should this site turn its material to this "proposed" 4th Ed devastation, then it will be the end of it for me, for I wish to remember GH as it has developed up to now...
AG
Nah, we are going “4e. All the time. All your previous editions are belong to us!”, and we will be deleting ALL of the other non-4e forums and their content, as well as every non-4e article. So, only about 99% of the site’s content will be gone. It’s gonna rock!
Yeah, right! There may be some restructuring of the site in the near future, but that has nothing to do with 4e. These plans have been under discussion for a long, long time(nothing too drastic mind you). Canonfire! will remain pretty much the same. There will simply, and inevitably, be more 4e content posted to the site as people write it. The only way it will drown out other non-4e material is if those people with an interest in non-4e material don’t step up to the plate and write something for the non-4e stuff themselves. Yes, everyone has to put up or shut up basically(yes, I’m looking at you “Greyhawk- Other Game Systems” people who have yet to "ROCK!" their newly established forum).
vestcoat wrote:
Hmmm...can someone move this thread to the GH 4e board so I don't have to look at it?
BusterBudd wrote:
I'll second that request!
AG
I’ll leave the thread here for now as this is general information worthy of discussion by all parties. I may move it along to the 4e forum after a suitable period of discussion. People really ought to look at this info and see what possible *good* things it might hold with regards to the possible development of the World of Greyhawk. Ideas can always be plundered piecemeal, regardless of what era you play in or rules system you use.
As to the original post, that actually all sounds like a very good way of fitting 4e into Greyhawk. I much prefer this to the "We just meteor swarmed your campaign world. Roll a saviing thow. D'oh! You failed! Now roll your item saving throws!(hehehe!) D'oh! All your items are GONE!!!" method used to re-set the Forgotten Realms. If you want to make use of the material from later events like FtA and so on, just apply the results of those later events to the revamped 4e Greyhawk(if you want to). Those later events are not being wiped out of existence- they just haven’t happened yet(and may or may not ever happen depending on how you as a DM want to run things). The new material not being specifically dependent on what has come before is not a bad idea at all. I just hope that this new start doesn’t just re-hash every single thing for yet another time, but also makes a point of expanding upon areas of the Flanaess(and beyond) that have received little or no attention whatsoever(and anybody could use that). You know, actual *new* material? Sounds crazy I know…
Maybe this is an opportunity for input, rather than hair pulling?
I deleted my first attempt at this post (top of thread) a day ago because when I read it over I felt like I was coming across way too negative. I did not want to rant.
Yes. You are correct. This is an opportunity for input but I'm torn. I'm not sure which I'd prefer - try to make the best of things or hope for corporate inertia, 4e overheating and GH's rep to lead to nothing. Personally, I'm not one for GH seeing print just to see it in print - IMO, GH has to maintain its sense of self to be worth seeing print. Of course, different people will define this differently.
The real "opportunity," if you want to call it that, for input lies in the present situation whereby the "usual" GH suspects will not be involved in the 4e GH design. They have taken other "paths," so to speak. There will be new blood.
grodog wrote:
So GVD, is this pure speculation on your part or are parts of what you stated from seminars @ GenCon, or from insider sources, etc., etc.? Just curious! :D
I did not attend Gencon. However, I have friends who did. So, up front, my "information" is second hand. That said, the information is derived from seminars and conversations had with individuals who ostensibly are in positions to know or hear things and my own reading of the resulting tea leaves. Like a weather forecast, there is an inevitable "bust" factor. If you asked me to put a percentage on my level of confidence I'd say:
70% chance there is a GH 4e as of today; and
75% chance it will look pretty much as described.
I feel very comfortable with my "forecast." In one forum or another, I called the year of 4e's launch. I called the Realms changes. I called the terms of the GSL Mk I. I called Paizo sticking with 3.5 (actually I publically advocated for it back last September on CF and the Paizo boards).
That said, after calming myself down, I find I am not really certain what to think. I'm not sure I want to be right or wrong. I like parts of what is described, particularly the reset of the Great Kingdom and the Scarlet Brotherhood, both of which I felt were handled poorly circa FtA. Other parts are in my mind open to much more question. I'll leave it that I remain to be convinced on other scores.
More info should be forthcoming at the DDX and next Con Season. Like a hog looking for truffles, I will be keeping my nose to the ground.
I am definitely going to the Cons next year. Triple20 spoke of influence - putting on some type of GH seminar might be just what the doctor ordered. Word to the wise. It could also be fun. Rattle those bushes and see what comes out. _________________ GVD
To be honest, I don't like this much. Some setting development is nice and going all the way back to original box is pretty much a middle finger to large set of the fanbase.
We were talking about this in Greychat Thursday night. I think it's the best way to handle a new edition, I don't like shoe-horning new races/classes and whatnot into the setting in a cataclysmic manner. A Greyhawk reboot would make the changes fluid with the setting, we'd get all the new material added into Greyhawk's history. I think the changes will make more sense in the context of the setting this way.
Well, a reboot back to 576 CY is one of the least offensive possibilities. I never liked how integrated 3e LG had become with reclusive wood elves living in human cities and halflings spread in great numbers all over the place.
I was quite happy with a few renowned wizard schools scattered across the Flanaess in 1e and with the Baklunish West and Scarlet Brotherhood as the main enclaves of martial arts monks. I loathed turning the Silent Ones of Keoland into sorcerers in particular.
I expect I will approve and disapprove of the 4e changes in equal measure. One good thing is that the npcs will all be far more individual now. I'm looking forward to seeing the Elminster write up as it may foreshadow 4e versions of the Circle of Eight and old Mordy.
I'm still ambivalent about rituals in 4e but when creating npcs, I can give them whatever rituals they need flavourwise so the druids will still be contacting elemental wierds and the high priest at the Temple of Wee Jas will still be raising the dead.
First of all I am genuinely (I really mean it) pleased that those who have decided to go ahead with 4e will receive some GH support. And a special good luck to those who try to break into having some say over its development.
This news about 4e GH is entirely predictable. Wotc have waited, listened to a lot of the negative things expressed by long time gamers and now decided to go for the option that the majority of GH players would like; A return to the old feel of the campaign but in a way that will allow incorporation of the 4e concepts. Sound business sense. Good corporate planning. From the company that answered a question nobody was asking; Can we have an entirely new, non-backwards compatible game please 'cause I've got a whole heap of disposable income that's just burning a hole in my pocket?
That's it. I'll not offer any more negative opinions. I promise.
Cebrion; I realise you've created a fun new sport by shooting at those that wanted an Alternate Game Systems Forum, but you gave them their wish, so now give them time. They've only just got going, after all. And please, spare us the words "Rock" and "Cool".
Sounds like a Wotc development meeting.
You know, I remember ten years or so ago when FtA was released. Man were people pissed. It was understandable too. There were a lot of really strange things WoTC or TSR or who ever the hell was at the helm when FtA did to the world.
We want the old feel. They've already soured their relations with their largest fan base by their mishandling of the Realms. They didn't listen to what the players wanted, they acted unilaterally and may end up losing market share because of it. Maybe not a lot, the majority of players will get over it, however there will be a lot of people that go, "**** this, I'm going to go play Vampire (or Rifts or Shadowrun, what ever). Maybe I'll get the 4th ed. stuff off of eBay in a few years when it is cheap."
Thats what I did with 3.x. It took me years to get back into D&D because I was so ticked off about the way the switch over from 2nd to 3rd was handled. Did I come back to the game? Yes, but WoTC didn't make a dime off of me in the process. They don't care if we play the game, they care if we buy the books. Now that they have begun to alienate their biggest fan base they probably want to avoid alienating their most stable one as well. Hence, taking the story arch back to the beginning.
Can they screw it up? Of course, but not so seriously as they screwed up the Realms. WotC can't go about pissing off their customers. Gamers have shown in the past that they have absolutely no problem picking up and going over to someone else's product. After the mishandling of the FR material, they are not leaving a lot of wiggle room for mistakes in GH.
And its about god damned time someone did something with something on Oerik other then the Flaness.
Cebrion; I realise you've created a fun new sport by shooting at those that wanted an Alternate Game Systems Forum, but you gave them their wish, so now give them time. They've only just got going, after all. And please, spare us the words "Rock" and "Cool".
Sounds like a Wotc development meeting.
Nearly fell off my chair I was laughing so hard. I really am surprised somebody got the veiled reference. I thought that saying "This newer version of Canonfire! will be soooo much better and much more fun than any previous version of Canonfire! ever was! It's gonna ROCK!" would be a bit much though.
And yes, I'm putting a bit of a bullseye on that particular forum, but that is just me and nobody else should. More effort was put into complaining about it not being there than has been put into the forum since it has actually been there(and it has been there for over 2 months). And don't tell me there aren't plenty of topics to discuss regarding how other game sytem content can be fit into Greyhawk, particulary all of the stuff written under the C&C rules. Yes, I know, Yggsbugh will be an unimaginably hard fit for Greyhawk, but somebody could at least try. However, all of that material gets more disucssion on other forums. After two months, one would think that the loudest proponents of having this forum could post something with a bit more meat to it than "I like C&C. Do you?" "I do too!" "Me too!" "Yay C&C!". There are 16 posts there, 4 of which are mine, so that leaves 12 posts in over 60 days on a new forum that was being clamoured for. I'm somewhat disappointed in the level of activity to say the least. After all, it doesn't take lengthy articles to make a forum, just discussion of relevant topics. Somebody needs to work on posting some. Anybody can PM me regarding this topic if they want to, but let's drop it for now and have the discussion go back to the point of this thread.
So, just to alleviate anybody's fears- there will be no massive edition-specific changes made to the website.
Nah, we are going “4e. All the time. All your previous editions are belong to us!”, and we will be deleting ALL of the other non-4e forums and their content, as well as every non-4e article. So, only about 99% of the site’s content will be gone. It’s gonna rock!
Or you could just lump all the non-4e forums into one forum. I'm sure nobody else has ever tried anything similar and it would work perfectly.
Sounds neat, but why reboot? Couldn't all of the 'meta' effects necessary for 4e be incorporated into GH per its standard current timeline? Or better yet, why not just advance the timeline like they did in Forgotten Realms, use a similar device like the spell plague and say it was a cosmological disaster (thus allowing for cross planar adventures in the future).
That way, when they revive Spelljammer and all the other 'brilliant' marketing driven worlds from 2e that were sooooooo successful, in yet another vainglorious attempt to rake in nostalgia dollars they can have something for the Wizards 3 to discuss online in their Gleemax forums.
The funny thing about this? I was thinking that when I switch over fully to Pathfinder I would restart Greyhawk in 576 CY... _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Greets Katerek, I agree, a forward move similar to the FR would better suit the situation, and as GVD has stated its a number of years off and there could be changes yet to come, very likely.
I figure WotC is still firing from their backside on any of this, which may still not come about... and in retrospect, looking at this 4th Ed and what they have done to FR, I, personally, hope it never comes to fruit.
Hey Maldin, I'm back... but I'm off to GenCon UK this week, so we'll have to link up later...when you get back from Mexico!
4E Reboot sounds...meh. I think one of you guys would do a much better job than WotC on this one. Baasically, I'm very skeptical of their ability to be true to the setting, and not turn it into a generic 4E world, with dragonboobs and tieflings shooting out all over the place. I don't like making radical alterations to a setting just because someone decided to print a new official edition. Small, incremental changes are fine. Most of the ''WORLD SHAKING EVENT'' stuff is lame. Fate of Istus was bad enough, can you imagine what they'll do to the official setting to 4E-ize it? Poor old Oerth.
Seriously, I'll just ignore anything not to my liking, which is pretty much how I handle the Greyhawk Wars and aftermath thereof. I don't think all the newer GH stuff is badly written, I just don't care for some of the chnages [ big open SB as naval power, many of my fave little countries wiped out or overrun, Mayaheine , Philidor, etc].
Now, what would work very well, IMO, would be to expand the setting and add an archipelago, with the new races [dragonborn and 4e tieflings] as natives. Instead of messing around with the continuity of the Flaness, just expand the world a bit to make room for new stuff. that way, there is no need for massive retconning.
Last edited by CombatMedic on Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Unfortunately , we can say all we want, in the end this WotC crew will put "their mark" on GH, just like D&D 4th and FR, no second guessing that. It's business, and somewhere's in the marketing scheme core GH fans won't bring enough coin in to justify the cost?
Best thing to hope for is they will seriously consider their actions, when the time comes, for Greyhawk is a Gygax legacy.
Greyhawk always came across to me as a low to mid magic world, unlike the high magic of FR. Dragonborn and Tieflings would, in my opinion, mess it up, that and the fact they made gnomes monsters! I would hate to see it "tooned" out/made a mockery of.
The thing that does make me concerned is exactly what BusterBudd said. That WotC would make it tooned out and watered down. The big problem is nothing that they have put out over the past few years is a particularly difficult challenge. Wait, no scrath that. Nothing they have put out is an actual challenge. Maybe 4th ed changes that I don't know, but there is a reason why the Against the Giants series and Temple of Elemental Evil is so popular. Those modules are meat grinders. Being able to complete them actually meant something.
There was never anything like that put out for FR that I know of. Sure there were settings that implied that level of danger like Undermountain or Myth Drannor but it was left to the DM to create those challenges. "Gee, thanks TSR, like I couldn't do draw a huge map on my own."
That was what made the Gygaxian era modules so great. They taught you, as a DM, how to build those challenge levels and they taught you, as a player, how to handle that level of difficulty. Thats why 2nd ed was a bust. The over all system was better, but the support was crap. Now we have WotC repeating the same mistake that TSR made. They focus on the wrong stuff. Support the settings, support the DM, and support the players and the system will take care of itself. TSR created bogus supplement after bogus supplment The Complete book of Humanoids, the Complete book of Gnomes and Halflings, or my personal favorite bizarrely unusual playing aid, the deck of spell cards. WTF? No seriously, WTF?
Should periodic edition updates be made? Absolutely. No system is perfect and could always be improved but there is a difference between a system revision and a complete overhaul.
Introducing Dragonborn and Tieflings into the setting does not concern me. The death of the world and the product line does. As long as you work to placate your audience instead of captivate them, you will lose out. Get people talking about campeign worlds and make sure that a supplement doesn't come out until its ready and it will sell.
Since Gygax left the company D&D slid into second place in most gamers minds. It became a kids game and experienced gamers moved on to to bigger things. One of those bigger things was Lejendary Journeys and a while later it was Castles and Crusades. Even now, almost twenty years after he was excised from the project Dungeons and Dragons still has yet to grow out of his shadow.
If I could send a message to WotC it would be, study those modules, listen to the people that have made D&D to dynasty it is today and understand why they love it. Greyhawk is about struggle. Always has been, always will be and in Greyhawk the good guys don't always win. Let Forgotten Realms be the high fantasy setting, thats it's role. Magic is common place, but as common as it is it still maintains some element of mystery to it. The common people don't trust it but they don't fear it either. Let Eberron be the Steampunk setting. Thats its role. Magic is so common place so as to render it cheap but the theme there is progress.
Like most DMs I like each different worlds for different reasons and I have tons of 2nd ed stuff from every world except for Mystara and Birthright. If it was a setting book, or supplement I bought it as soon as I could. Setting info is great, tactical discussions (which is essentially what a module should be) are great but we don't need three players handbooks in order to play a freaking Druid.
If they don't watch out they're going to price themselves out of the market and Hasbro is going to sell them off.
The Gygaxian era modules didn't teach much of anything. Most of those modules were made in tournament format, and when they were released for the mass market were not really changed all that much(if at all). Now, they did make a point of saying something like "This module was originally written for tournament play. You may wish to expand on areas X, Y, And Z to make the adventure more interesting.", but that is just a suggestion, not teaching. Compare those classic modules with those that came just after them. The main distinction between Gygax era modules and later modules is that the later modules were(mostly) not written with tournament play in mind, but with the aim of just fully developing a cohesive adventure. There was no consideration of how long it would take to go through the adventure(tournament rounds are limited by time), and how many tournament points would be scored depending on what goals were achieved and how few hit points/party members were lost. The later modules were merely designed to be ready to play "out of the box", with little or no additional effort required on the part of the DM.
Gygax didn't teach me how to develop those early adventures- I taught myself. Gygax and the other authors of those early tournament modules only provided the suggestion that I do so. I do like the feel of those older modules, but I think that has a lot to do with the extra work I put into them which made them my own. That sentiment surely has leaked over to how I feel about the modules themselves. WotC should stick with making adventures that are fully developed and self-contained in so far as they are not part of a adventure series(which is made up of "modules"). The one thing WotC(and a few other companies) could learn to do is to cut down the fluff content by about half, which leads to adventures being less pigeon-holed with regards to specific things. People can always change anything they want to of course, but super-detailing everything sort of plants the suggestion that they shouldn't.
Things surely have been made simpler for DMs over time, which I think undervalues the creativity of the people who seek out games like D&D in the first place. It is a tough balance to get right though, so it is hard to justify being overly critical.
I cannot agree strongly enough that WotC needs to quit jumping around and focus on a few proven things and do them very, very well. Instead, it looks like they are going back to the "bazillion campaign worlds with crappy support for all" model that is already a proven failure because it leads to everyone wanting attention and a lack of time and resources to give it to any single one of them without pissing off all of the others. What is proven? Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms. Ebberon has done OK too, but it is pretty telling when an actively supported campaign world only gets an many web hits as one that hasn't truly been supported with product releases for nearly 6 years(fact based on a comparison of "Greyhawk" to "Eberron" web searches about 2 years ago).
I guess they'll just have to put their hand in the fire one more time, just to see if it burns them *again*. Good thing they have the monolithic resources of Hasbro to fall back on.
First off, manus-nigrum, you "parted the mist" for me... that being one of the early aspects of D&D/AD&D was the adultness of it (to a me at least as a twelve yr old). It was the complexity and maturity (learning and playing by the rules) that drew me to the game. It was "the older brother" and his buddies game, which was "cool" and to be cool (in a nerdy fashion ), I wanted a piece of it, that and I was “told by the 14 yr old” I wouldn’t understand it, I was too young.
Greyhawk and the mods of the time, with the “reality” tourney mods (your meat grinders) shaped the feel for me of the game. Greyhawk had “magic”, but the theme wasn’t overly imbued by it, the monsters were mythic (for the most part) and it was like a “Jason and the Argonauts” adventure . And I also felt more challenged, though it was partially from my inexperience with the game at the time.
The direction 4th Ed has taken, in my opinion, is “toon’ing” the game, and I would really be disappointed and frustrated if GVD's 3rd-word prediction came to fruit. Such material would loose my support and interest.
The complexity of AD&D (mind you, looking back I had a few choice words then about that sometimes) was what separated the gamers from the boys... ...and the lack of this in today’s rendition of D&D is reflective of the business/money making scheme, trying to make the game lovable and playable by everyone... like Monopoly or Clue...gee Hasbro really sunk there fangs in well.
But not to go totally off on a tangent, as mentioned before a few times by gamers from all corners of this Oerth... ...the system was not in need of “replacement”, some slight adjustments, sure. No matter how many good rules get established, GM/DM’s always get particular and create their own “House Rules”, regardless of how many Editions come out.
Build upon the supplements, leave the rules alone for the most part, that’s the game system... it’s how it’s played (RoleMaster, HarnMaster, Cthuhulu, etc are somewhat reflective of this).
As I have said for years, add more to the worlds created, like say, FR... Granted, some may disagree, but imagine if there was a hardback on Nyrond, with detailed poster maps and adventure mods akin to the region similar to the amount of work and material support provided for FR’s Waterdeep. Now think about all of the other nations developed as such...
You could even ”time line” it with annual journals to reflect changes (wars, alliances, disasters, births, deaths, etc...).
I think Greyhawk may still have this potential still to acquire this. Don’t allow Dragonborn or Tieflings... or make it optional or as otherworld creatures not native to GH... introduce the gnome back as a PC option for the GH World only... maybe? (sorry...I appreciate the gnome ) Keep true to the Greyhawk as it has developed up till now and do some research work, take the time to “get it right”, make this the “new phoenix”, the new standard for other Game companies to follow by. Sit on the production and produce the material needed, source out authors to assist in the development ... I know a few from this site would love that, even if it was for peanuts and pocket lint, just to have their name to an “official” piece of GH history would be satisfying.
This is my view, my opinion, but hopefully shared to some extent with most of you fellow Greysages. If WotC has a set of eyes/ears here .... then I hope they do hear this and every other opinionated gamer from this particular fan site which supports the core GH as it has developed over the years.
Gygax didn't teach me how to develop those early adventures- I taught myself. Gygax and the other authors of those early tournament modules only provided the suggestion that I do so.
Cebrion, please do not take this the wrong way, I appreciate your work and contributions greatly, but if you didn't have the mods to refer too, then you would not have learned how to do it, so in principle, you were taught by Gygax... I like to believe I was indirectly .
I believe a lot of us are on the same page as you...
Quote:
Things surely have been made simpler for DMs over time, which I think undervalues the creativity of the people who seek out games like D&D in the first place. It is a tough balance to get right though, so it is hard to justify being overly critical.
I cannot agree strongly enough that WotC needs to quit jumping around and focus on a few proven things and do them very, very well. Instead,
I really feel/get the impression that WotC has been all over the board and reaching all over the place in the last few years... the whole loss of control over 3.5, the new system of 4th Ed/FR forward and rewritten/this GH backward proposal, almost seems like a panic move to appease the Hasbro overlords while suppressing the core gamers (core =ing the gamers in for the long haul, who have a genuine interest/concern in their hobby) from going into a rage and boycotting the material all together by giving out false hope that campaigns of old will continue...just not the way we would believe. A merging of WoW with D&D with table top game rules...ok, it looks good and works, but its not D&D, its a new system so call it something else already.
Why couldn’t things have been left well enough alone... why even put out a “she said, he said” rumour out there on something dear to allot of us here.
Meh as long as a reboot doesn't involve inserting a nation of dragonborn or tieflings or re-write the histories or indentities of the rulers in the Flanaess it will be no different. In fact a points of light cast to the original concept might even be cooler. Npcs may be more flavourful than if they're built as pc classes. Prince Thrommel v Prince Avras - we've had a certain amount of dodgy 'official' editing already.
My campaign was set it 581 CY and after 18 years we'eve only just reached 588 CY. I won't be changing my campaign and I will work in any reboot stuff as seamlessly as I can.
I have been thinking about the potential reboot. My first, deleted, reaction was negative. My second reaction was, I hope, moderate if skeptical. And I have now come full circle.
Would I buy a reboot as described? Sure, I would. I buy everything Greyhawk. Would I give it a chance? Sure, I would; I gave 4e a chance. Could a reboot turn out to be cool? Sure, it could; anything is possible. Am I enthused at the prospects? No.
For me the stumbling block is the loss of canon, the idea that practically everything published "never happened." Of course, I can still use all that material, and I would. That is not the loss I fear. Rather, I fear a loss of depth of setting characterization.
Presently, GH has a story arc through multiple iterations (83Box, FtA, GH98, LGG, PaizoHawk etc.) that, like any particular or dislike it, gives GH a depth unrivaled by any other setting, even the much published Realms. Call this loosely "canon." That this canon is loose, is contradictory, is arguable, only adds to the depth and richness of GH. In GH, there is something to talk about in a way no Realms conversation can come close to because the Realms has been, more or less, consistently developed whereas GH's development has been highly inconsistent, proceeding in fits and starts. What seems like a negative is, in fact, a positive.
All this will be lost in a restart to the degree a restart says "this is it, this is how we play GH." Of course, no one will confiscate my old material but major setting treatments tend to be definitional in that they establish a frame of reference for play or for conversation. In the event of a reboot, every discussion will by almost necessity have to deal with the restart if it is to be at all comprehensive. Is this so horrible? Well, have you read the 4e Realms setting book?
The 4e Realms is essentially a reboot, even though the timeline goes forward and acknowledges everything that came before - technically. I say "technically" because 100 years renders a nullity much of what came before in the Realms or at the least it puts any continued viability in question. Thus, the 4e Realms is in these ways closely akin to a reboot.
Turning then to the content of the 4e Realms product, one finds it "thin." The 4e Realms come across as a mile wide and an inch deep. Admitting the the Realms has always been a much "wider" or a larger setting that Greyhawk (that has pretty much been just the Flanaess) and has seen a ton more published support, what does this portend for a rebooted 4e GH? A quarter mile wide and half an inch deep? That is my fear. Its not the end of the world but that is not the question. The question is whether I see such an abbreviated GH as a "good thing?" I don't. Why would anyone?
BusterBudd wrote:
First off, manus-nigrum, you "parted the mist" for me... that being one of the early aspects of D&D/AD&D was the adultness of it . . .
The complexity of AD&D (mind you, looking back I had a few choice words then about that sometimes) was what separated the gamers from the boys... ...and the lack of this in today’s rendition of D&D is reflective of the business/money making scheme, trying to make the game lovable and playable by everyone... like Monopoly or Clue...
BusterBudd is dead on target here, IMO. D&D's complexity was a feature not a problem. As editions of D&D have attempted to remove this complexity by simplification or streamlining, D&D has lost a lot of heart and soul, IMO. Complexity, as in the case of GH canon as I described above, is conducive to the development of character, of soul. A prefab setting where everything is consistent, everything is explained and everything is simple is no setting I want any part of as it has no character or soul - it is a dead thing from the first moment it rolls off the presses.
Life is about complexity and verisimiltude demands some degree of it. GH is famous for the unanswered question, the question no one thought to ask and the question to which there is more than one answer. This is complexity. This is character. This resembles real life (which is rarely simple) and thus gives GH an unrivaled verisimiltude. Of course, the game should be playable and approachable but should be so in a way that does not sacrifice complexity. Making demands on players of a game is not a bad thing and as early D&D's history demonstrates - it can still sell and sell very well.
BusterBudd wrote:
. . . You could even ”time line” it with annual journals to reflect changes (wars, alliances, disasters, births, deaths, etc...).
This a fascinating idea! Call it "The Comic Book Model." A setting where there would be a baseline treatment that was enhanced with "annuals." With modules as "issues," that presented certain story arcs.
So one would have potentially:
1) Boxed set or Big Hardback;
2) Adventures story arcs and stand alones throughout the year; and
3) End or beginning of the year "annuals" that advanced the setting.
1 and 2 have been done but 3 strikes me as somethying entirely new. Rather than reissue the setting setting after so many years, it would be annualized. Of course, this would require a change in design approach so one could come into the setting new with every annual ie so one would not necessarily need every annual, but I think that could be worked out.
Not saying this is the way to go with any setting but I do think the idea is novel and quite intriguing! Pardon the digression. _________________ GVD
Here's the deal with a WotC 4e Greyhawk reboot. It would be designed as an overview of the setting. The current model is Campaign Guide (Fluff) for the DM, Campaign Player's Guide (Crunch), and Campaign Adventure Series (to quickly get the game going).
Having browsed the FR Campaign guide, the GH Campaign Setting it would be like getting the WoG Box Set (only fatter) with a lot of concise listings for the realms and locations of the Flanaess. There would also be adventure hooks galore.
One area would be developed further (a town or a city) to help start new users to the setting and rest would up to the DM and players flesh out and develop.
As for what races would be present, if its in the PH, DMG or MM, it would be present in the setting. The directive from on high, if its in the core books it exists for the campaign. This only makes sense from WotC perspective because it supports the sale of their core materials.
Once these three products (adventures might be more than one but they link up for the setting) are done, they are out and off to the next setting. Any additional official GH content would be on DDI.
Anyway, a reboot would put the setting back at the beginning and to me would make the setting more accessible to new players. It would also have plenty of room for me to do my own thing with it. Which is after all the most you can expect from Greyhawk, make it your own.
The description above of the reboot makes it sound like WotC is throwing away decades of work to incorperate some of their new races. Sure these races seem nice, they all seem tough and cool. Unlike the silly gnomes and bards. But personally I like the gnomes and bards, that seem to have little combat utility, they help provide a relief to the dark parts of the campaign setting. I know that gnomes and bards will not be fully eliminated from the game, but they are obviously taking a step down.
Although my opinion has been thus far fairly negative, that is only because of my love of GH. They could do a bang up job that is able to incorperate the old and complement it with new intrigues. Who knows? Although I would like to throw in a worst case senario...
Wizards rewrites the setting, paving the way for their new races, basing most of their decissions on the popular trends of the day that then capturing the original spirit of the setting. Eventually dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings are no longer considered cool and Wizards is left with a bastardized campaign setting. Everyone starts playing Birthright.
My main concern is the loss of canon which has been the lifeblood of GH. Although granted technically the canon can be used as the timeline advances. The depth of the gameworld that makes GH stand out could be lost which would be a real shame.
I disagree with the loss of certain races and classes for exciting ones. Each race or class is only as exciting as played and each has its stereotypes. I am sure races like dragonborn can be played just as badly as gnomes.
GH has always had an internal societal realism for lack of a better word. GH was humancentric and tried to play fantasy straight. Granted spellcasters and half-orcs wandered into a tavern but the human society within the gameworld accepted this as normal and because it echo historic touchstones so did the PCs but how is GH suppose to maintain its realism.
Dragonborn and tieflings become popular within GH so how does the gamers react that want the suspension of belief. How does the gameworld retain its internal sense of realism without losing its depth and sense of being a functioning fantasy world.
What I liked about GH is their seemed to be consequences; the society and history of the world evolved. If a dragon flew by I as a player wanted to know how the villagers reacted. Some players really didn't care and were concermed only about the next adventure location but I did and still do care; for me GH has become a story that I want to continue reading.
Last edited by Crag on Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Wizards rewrites the setting, paving the way for their new races, basing most of their decissions on the popular trends of the day that then capturing the original spirit of the setting. Eventually dragonborn, eladrin, and tieflings are no longer considered cool . . .
Exactly. What happens if there's drastic changes to rules, cosmology, etc. in the future. Do you reboot again?
I don't think the new FR is a reboot. It's blow up the world and create a clean slate to introduce the new rules and races etc. but not a reboot. It's a change but one that's moving forward with the new game.
If they do reboot GH, it begs the question if they'll redo the City of Greyhawk also. I'm not sure if WotC owns the Gord the Rogue novel line? Maybe they'll base it on Gygax's model of Greyhawk in these novels instead of the 2E boxed set?
It also begs the question, do they blow up the current GH campaign to give it some closure?
…but if you didn't have the mods to refer too, then you would not have learned how to do it, so in principle, you were taught by Gygax... I like to believe I was indirectly.
I believe a lot of us are on the same page as you...
Well, surely those old modules acted as a reference/guide, but they didn’t teach me how to write. They showed me a format to use for adventures but not much more than that. You can say that about almost any D&D material though. I surely learned much indirectly by studying the master’s blueprints though. ;) But, all of the material I have contributed so far has little or nothing to do with adventures(yet ), so I really haven't had to draw on much of those Gygaxian guidelines up until now. He was a fun guy to chat with about things for hours on end, and he will be missed by many, but he didn't teach me how to write. Many teachers, the writing and correcting of many, many bad papers(and reviewing them so as to understand why they were crap to begin with), and the reading of many, many books taught me that. You gotta do the work to learn how to write.
GVDammerung wrote:
For me the stumbling block is the loss of canon, the idea that practically everything published "never happened." Of course, I can still use all that material, and I would. That is not the loss I fear. Rather, I fear a loss of depth of setting characterization.
I think this concerns many people, but it shouldn't. A 576 reboot does nothing to later works. It’s not that the later material "never happened', it just "hasn't happened yet", and it is of course up to everyone to decide if it will or did happen. Feywild-ing Celene would be an oddity, but the Fey Realm won't really suffer for it. Any drastic changes would be annoying, but we don't know if that will happen at all.
Also, I don't see how anybody having to do with Living Greyhawk can be threatened by this at all. It has nothing to do with Living Greyhawk and does nothing to devalue any of the effort that was put into Living Greyhawk. Besides, the Living Greyhawk material for the most part is the property of its respective authors, so you can't be surprised when WotC doesn't use it. They have already said they won't pay for it, so don't expect them to use it. Do you think WotC will use the material anyways just so they can be sued for plagiarism later on? I can guarantee that the answer to that will be a firm NO.
A 4e reboot of Greyhawk only adds in the 4e oddities. I think most people will agree that Tieflings can already be found in the lands of Iuz and the Great Kingdom(though not in any great abundance). The only change here is that Tieflings are now a Player Character race. Big whoop. And Dragonborn being from "off the map" is no big deal to me either. That gives you carte blanche to either begin including them in your campaign(and other things from "off the map") or simply ignore them altogether. That isn't exactly shoving anything 4e down our throats.
"We want Greyhawk material, but not with any added material that supports the currently supported rules system." If anybody wants that then they will surely be disappointed. You might as well ask somebody "Do you have chocolate chip ice cream? Yes?. Great! I'd like two scoops of that without the chocolate chips." Imagine the look you are going to get if you asked for that, and that is the same look WotC is going to give you if you ask for Greyhawk but without any 4e influence in it. What more can you realistically expect?
The main factor regarding anything new that is made for Greyhawk will be what extra stuff it has in it. Does it add to the setting in ways that you can use; mainly in regards to adding something new to the campaign world or developing something that has yet to be developed? If so, then the products will likely be of use to you(this is about the only thing I would be looking forward to by the way). If they don't then yes, it sucks to be you(and me) because you(and me) have waited for something which has turned out to not be that useful to you(and me), but you(and me) really don't need them and you(and me) shouldn't buy them. It's as simple as that.
Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:50 am; edited 2 times in total
Just a few things to keep in mind when you are thinking about Greyhawk Rebooted (GR).
1) The soonest GR comes out is 2010. FR is this year, Eberron is next year. This means there are a lot of books besides the current 3 core books that will flesh out Powers, Classes, Races, Feats, Rituals, etc.
2) We know from EN World that the PH2 due out next year will have the following:
Power Sources: Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes
Classes: Barbarians, Bards, Druids, and Sorcerers
Races: Gnomes, Half-Orcs, Goliaths, and Shifters
This is no means complete but you will notice that with the publication of the PH2 the only class and race missing from core Greyhawk is the Monk. That might come out in the PH3 or be part of the crunch in the Greyhawk Player's Guide.
3) The way gods are handled in 4e will prolly mean that the endless list of gods will be chopped down. If FR is a guide, some will be Greater Gods, some will be just Gods, others will be Exarchs (powerful, read epic level, servants of deities, devils, and demons), while finally some will be discarded as redundant.
Here is the thing, if they reboot to say 576 CY, they can distill the campaign down to the essence of what makes Greyhawk, Greyhawk. They can thoughtfully integrate the new races and classes into the setting.
For the minority of us that cling to the long and storied history of Greyhawk do not loose anything in this. We can advance the timeline with what we liked from the material that stretches to 598 CY today. Or we can go our own way and create our own stories. To me that is win win.
If FR is a guide, some will be Greater Gods, some will be just Gods, others will be Exarchs (powerful, read epic level, servants of deities, devils, and demons), while finally some will be discarded as redundant.
which gods would you or do you think they would chop off?
which gods would you or do you think they would chop off?
Truth be told, I haven't a clue. It would depend on the goals of the story and design teams. Lets face it there are nearly 200 gods on the Living Greyhawk Deities document (granted it includes savage humanoid and monster deities). That is a huge number deities to cut down to size.
4e FR has 19 Greater Gods and about the same number of deities. Remember how large their pantheons where.
From a design perspective there a couple of givens of deities in 4e:
1) Gods are an extension of the Astral sea and truly beyond the ken of mere mortals. They are distant and are not one race or another but are worshiped by all beings. Some gods may be favored by a race but that is mortal preference not a function of the god's make-up.
2) They battled the Primordials at dawn of creation beings of the Elemental Chaos. Essentially Order vs. Chaos. Tharzudin attempted to use the Elemental Chaos (EC) to take over and used a shard of true evil to corrupt the EC to his purposes and created Demons and the Abyss. They rebelled.
3) Alignment is on this line instead of the nine alignment axis:
Lawful Good - Good - Unaligned - Evil - Chaotic Evil
With these points in mind and what happened with the FR pantheon (mind you they destroyed a number of gods during their Spellplague, GH evidently will just reboot) I would say:
1) The savage humanoid, monster and "demihuman" pantheons would get the axe. Some of them would be retained as exarchs (the new demi/hero gods, reduced to epic level servants of deities) of deities like Mordain and Corelleon but the vast majority would be redundant.
2) Bahamut has Heironeous' role in the Core pantheon. Either he would replace or wind up an exarch of him. Hextor has the same issue with Bane. I would say that Hextor would prolly replace Bane.
3) St. Cuthbert and Iuz would become exarchs and their presence on Oerth would be make more sense. Also, Iuz would be killable at Epic level of play. No sure who The Cudgel would serve but Iuz would serve his father Graz'zt.
4) Basically any demigods and hero-gods would be made exarchs or removed.
First off, I have to say I actually like the approach given in the OP, and I am a bit surprised by the rancor about it. Given the generally poor reception I have heard about the Greyhawk Wars, it would seem like this sort of idea would be hailed as one that was full of promise, and lots of folks hoping WotC doesn't screw it up. I realize eventually WotC will rewrite certain events, but certain events could use a rewrite (Vecna anyone?).
Secondly, on the races/classes to be included: Monk will likely be introduced when Ebberon comes out, because of its many monk traditions. Gnome, Half-orc, Druid, bard and barbarian will be out before then, as Saracenus already said. Hopefully we'll get a "Old Lore" build/flavor for the Bard and Druid in the Greyhawk Player's Guide (although that is just a hope on my part).
I haven't had a chance to look at the Forgotten Realms book, am I right that they redid the flavor text (such as was there) for the existing races/classes? Not the stats, just the flavor? I ask because gnomes in Forgotten Realms would be vastly different from the feywild dwelling gnomes of the new Core world. While it may be argued that they have roots in the feywild, the FR gnomes long ago left aside such primitive notions and are now an industrialized (on a quaint scale) nation with invention and artifice being prime among their achievements, or did Lantan get blasted into the stone age? The reason I ask, is because how they handled the very different assumptions for gnomes in FR will give us a preview of which has precedence - Core or the world being described. I know how it should be, but I'm curious which it is.
Thirdly - the gods: That new direction actually sounds kinda cool. Defeating Iuz could be the culmination of a long campaign (say from 1-30), or even two seperate campaigns. I know I once played in a campaign where the more experienced characters beat one menace, and it was the people they helped along the way (who became the new PCs) who defeated the main guy's next itteration (the other ones were burdened with running a planet wide empire that they had overthrown). It also makes Acerak's story make a but more sense, and makes him defeatable, even if he manages (demi-)godhood. Of course, I freely admit I only know what I'm talking about a little less than half the time, and that's on a good day. I'm not sure its a good day yet. But then again, Dragoncon is this weekend, so its not a bad one either.
Yes, at this point is all speculation. I'm sure WotC will try to make it as appealing to the largest audience they can.
But I like the idea of the racial pantheons. I felt like these gave a good feel on the human subraces and helped provide ideas about a certain races society and values. I'm sure you could still make this work, with the new way described above; certain races and subraces worship perticular gods but the gods are not of a perticular race or subrace. This makes it work, but it is not quite the same feel.
It's not like this really matters though. People will DM their games in from whatever persepctive they like.
All this talk of removing lots of gods sounds like a bad idea to me. Lots of gods makes perfect sense in a big world with many peoples and species, and a base assumption of polytheism. GH has far fewer gods than I'd expect, if anything. After all, our world, with but a single intelligent species, has thousands of gods! A mere couple of hundred seems modest in comparison with that. Besides, GH gods are a big part of what makes the setting distinct and fun, IMO. I'd hate to see them downsized and genericized.
Yeah, I'd have to agree on this one. Each campaign I run I pick a new God to tear the religous groups into factions and have lots of infighting. I love cultural conflict and I love even better to have people that venerate the same gods killing each other.
Catholic/Protestant
Blinding Light/One True Path
I love having Paladins as bad guys. It makes it even better when the players are constantly referring to them as Black Guards of Pholtus.
Religious conflict is a pretty constant state of affairs in the Flaness. I don't think that reducing the deities you have to work with clarifies things, it just reduces reduces the depth of the world.
The standard route in 4e is to turn lesser gods into "exarchs" serving beings who the designers allow to remain gods. So Delleb and Zodal might become exarchs serving Rao instead of gods in their own right, Labelas Enoreth and Fenmarel Mestarine become exarchs serving Corellon Larethian, Zuoken becomes an exarch of Xan Yae, Mayaheine becomes an exarch of Pelor, etc.
I'd personally rather keep Greyhawk's big list of human and nonhuman deities, however.
It could be worse. A Chronomancer from the year 985 sends a superior Iron Golem back in time to assassinate the mother of Zagyg before he was ever born. All of history will change... dunh-Dunh-DUNH!!!
But seriously, 4e will come and it will be assimilated by us, not the other way around. How many of us use ALL of GH as written. You have surely had your players, or been the players, in events which helped shape the Flanaess in your own way. We don't just follow the story given to us, we write it ourselves in every game we play. Not everything goes as written.
Of course, history as written may not always be accurate either. I would have prefered a reboot of sorts later than CY 576. History has progressed enough in my GH that events from that time are told as stories or sung in ballads. This was a great way to let people argue 'in-game' about fluff inconsisancies. History has been remembered differently in different places. As for gods & pantheons, I must have incorporated all from the old Dieties & Demigods book at one time or another.
Events from players I gamed with 30 years ago have been incorporated into my Oerth's history (now at CY628...and I had steam-punk way before Eberron). I will never reboot all of that. But, I can always adapt new things into my world for new players. For my older players long gone, I now have NPC's that will delight and terrify those who will be meeting them for the first time. It will a time to remember and to boldly look forward.
For me, Greyhawk has been like composing a great symphony. As its Maestro, I may make subtle changes and adaptations for the players I entertain....but the spirit of the song remains. It grows, changes, always becoming more than it was before.
One man's exarch is another's god. That system doesn't bother me. In essence it's always been that way. But 4E does seem to be of the mindset that the only deities worth using(or printing) are ones that would logically have adventuring worshipers. This is bad news for agricultural and other commoner-favored gods. I don't see a need to kill off deities, just let them fade into the background like many many have done in GH eras past.
3) It is my opinion that we are not the target audience for a 4e Greyhawk. We are too invested in what has come before to accept anything from WotC.
...can't argue with the man there.
I believe "almost" anything WotC does to our "precious" will be deemed intrusive, bastardizing, shameful, destructive... look what they did to FR, gee how would we feel if they turned back time, evaporated the Nyr Dyv making into a toxic waste land (lets go DarkSun-ish here), flooded Rift Canyon, devastate the Vesve Forest and have sunk/washed over the Lendore Isles, then have these Tiefling and Dragonborn PC races established as if they have "always" been there, we just never really saw them before... whatever! Sorry, that’s not Greyhawk, that a prelude to "another" world.
Just like they did to 4th Ed D&D, a whole new game system, with only the name as the same. Keeping some familiar elements so as to justify that "it is" still GH related. They are doing the same with FR now, and when they come around to doing it to GH, it will be the same, only in name! ....they do "it" to ya at the drive thru, and they do "it" to ya with taxes, now its our GH
Instead of working and building upon the great, good, not so good, and bad material out there for Greyhawk and because "WotC" owns GH, they are taking the easier route, damming everything else, they don't care, its theirs and they'll do as they want with it, no matter how much we criticize or slammed them for it (though this can be fun for us, they get the last laugh).
As a few CF members have identified, its a change, we can either embrace it for what it will be or leave it and hope continued ideals and developments of the Greyhawk we can identify with stay alive thru sites like CF.
We have a few years to be angry or happy with this before anything comes about, and continue to discuss the pro's and con's of such an action by WotC, with more relevant, non-hypothesised information coming about in time.
Sadly in the end, either way you look at it, it will be the death of Greyhawk as we know it and another kind of GH or "Other Hawk" as referred to by GVD will rise from the ashes. However I do not see a phoenix rising more likely a pigeon or seagull
They know they will get a few dollars out of most of us, just from curiosity to see how bad or surprisingly well they’ve “adjusted” Greyhawk. Time will tell.... till then, lets continue, I really like seeing everyone’s opinions on this... it’s very entertaining and educational
Later, I’m off to get ready for GenCon UK... and have a few pints for me fellow Grey Sages
"We want Greyhawk material, but not with any added material that supports the currently supported rules system." If anybody wants that then they will surely be disappointed. You might as well ask somebody "Do you have chocolate chip ice cream? Yes?. Great! I'd like two scoops of that without the chocolate chips." Imagine the look you are going to get if you asked for that, and that is the same look WotC is going to give you if you ask for Greyhawk but without any 4e influence in it.
This is very well put and logical. Any 4e GH must incorporate 4e! Its after that the things get sticky.
Cebrion wrote:
Imagine the effect if there was a Greyhawk seminar at this year's GENCON, and it was attended by a horde of poeple.
Sometimes you make your own luck(or not).
Maybe a seminar at Gencon (I like the phraseology "Greyhawk Symposium") could look at the question of how 4e can be best incorporated into GH.
I'd say there might be a Moderator who would open and close the proceedings and handle questions along with introducing the panelists.
Panelist No. 1 would present the case for a full 4e inclusion into Greyhawk via an advance of the existing timeline.
Panelist No. 2 would present the case for a full 4e inclusion into Greyhawk via a reboot.
Panelist No. 3 would present the case for only a limited or no inclusion of 4e into Greyhawk.
The above skews toward including 4e in GH on purpose. Any seminar must not, IMO, be an excecise in ranting or Wotc bashing. Polite and professional would need to be the watch words, IMO.
After the presentations, the floor could be opened up to comments or questions. The Moderator would recognize the questioner and then, after making a comment of his or her own, direct the question to the panel, each of whom would respond. The idea would be to get a discussion going, hopefully with more light than heat.
In selecting the moderator and panelists, I would avoid going for "pros" as the question of 4e and GH, as framed, has little to do with those who are "in the industry" and everything to do with what GHs fans think.
Maybe call it - Greyhawk Symposium 2009 - Greyhawk in 4th Edition?
YMMV. The above is just me noodling, obviously there could be other ways to go about things. _________________ GVD
Agreed about keeping the multiple racial faiths. I like the idea of the exarchs though and not just because I am an Eldar 40k player either. It kinda hearkens back to the idea of demi-Gods. It creates a level of somewhat realistically attainable divinity.
Slightly off topic here. Cebrion said;I do like the feel of those older modules, but I think that has a lot to do with the extra work I put into them which made them my own.
Oh wow! You know I've often wondered why I "connect" so much with material from 1e days and that statement sums it up. How long have I been musing on this question? And along comes some smart**** saying "well obviously it's this".
And that's GH for me. Keep your highly detailed, every last thing written out setting. What I want is a hatstand that I can liberally drape with my own ravings. And the ravings of others, especially those here at CF.
So, what will this re-imagined 4e GH be like.? A framework in the spirit of the early years? Or, a fully realised, no work required monster?
And, just so my position is clear, I have absolutely no intention of buying it.
It could be worse. A Chronomancer from the year 985 sends a superior Iron Golem back in time to assassinate the mother of Zagyg before he was ever born. All of history will change... dunh-Dunh-DUNH!!!
Brrr... That made me shiver...
With so much of the world unexplored I don't understand why the new races have to be retconed into existence when they could very well come from some where else. Didn't someone earlier in the thread say that was what they were going to do. And is any of this official at all or just conjecture?
From my skimming of the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide a 4e Greyhawk Campaign would be a hatstand again, fluff galore but you only get one book of it. I would hardly consider this to be completely fleshed out campaign al la 3e FR with a myriad of source books and novels.
I can't speak to the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide because its not out yet. Its supposed to be mostly crunch for both players and DMs, with only light fluff. I can speak to the veracity of that when I finally get to see it.
Personally, I will keep an open mind on a 4e GH. It might be just what I need, or not, depending on the quality of the work. In any case I am going to have to finish up my 3.5 GH campaign before I even consider switching over to 4e.
Exactly the flanaess is largely unexplored rather the force them into an established area - have them originate "off the map."
I say too all those who wish to fight this wholesale - don't try. GH will change if it doesn't it truly is dead. FtA was fought and declared the death knell of GH and yet we remain. Rather then fight the entire process; I say choose your battles and fight for what matters most about GH to you. For me that is the flavour - the authentic feel of the game world.
As for the deities; Exarchs - Hero-Gods whatever cosmetic changes are made to the titles doesn't really shatter GH for me. I am more concerned with the elimination of deities but even that can be handled through allowing them to simply fade away to be rediscovered in the future.
Let us be honest GH does have too many Gods. Even Gygax said GH was a place where divine being ideas were tried out and all the deities were optional - there is an unknown pantheon within GH. Pick your battles; I would like to see the racial and demihuman pantheons and the villians kept to provide context and depth for the players.
Honestly other then the name would anyone really notice if many of the "monster deities" faded away. Rather then the Hruggek Bugbear shaman casting a spell. The encounter was a bugbear shaman casts a spell - for the players is something vital truly lost. Some change has to occur and the list has become rather bloated if some must be lost; I would prefer it be Hruggek and his ilk rather then Hextor or Nerull.
With so much of the world unexplored I don't understand why the new races have to be retconed into existence when they could very well come from some where else.
Right now I would say it is complete conjecture. We really don't know if there is even going to be 4e Greyhawk in the next 2 or 3 years let alone what shape of form it will take.
That said, to answer your other question, while you don't see a need to put Dragonborn and Teiflings into the central setting because of all the "Here There Be Dragons" sections of Oerik available, there is one in the eyes of WotC.
Take this from the perspective of the newer DMs and Players who shell out money for the PH, PH2 and PH3, because by time 4e Greyhawk could first see daylight these three books will be out there (plus the splatbooks, oh yes there will be splat books). They are going to have a bunch of toys they want to play with and it makes it harder to sell them a setting that says, "hey, your desire to play these races, clases, paragon levels, etc. is relegated to the fringes of the known playing area."
It is easier for them to write them into the setting rather than shoehorning them into it after the fact. Unsatisfying as this is to those that know and love the setting and its history, but much better at introducing it to those that are to come.
And I will say it again, WotC is more interested in getting those that are to come than pleasing the minority of us (remember we are but a subset of the current customer base) that are invested in the setting not changing because we remember when.
I am not saying this to be dismissive, but to be honest about the chances of 4e Greyhawk catering to us, a group that can't agree amongst ourselves half the time on what Greyhawk is or should be.
We are not popular with Design and Development, trust me. We are seen as one big pain in the **** because we pick apart every little thing that comes out.
If you think that our small numbers in comparison to FR fandom would get us special consideration, just take a look at 4e FR and tell me with a straight face that a fandom's sacred cows matter.
This is why I think we are whistling in the dark if we think that a "symposium" on Greyhawk at GenCon is going to help control 4e Greyhawk's destiny. It will be what WotC want's it to be. We might get some minor pull on a point but really I don't think we will even get that.
I am not saying this to be dismissive, but to be honest about the chances of 4e Greyhawk catering to us, a group that can't agree amongst ourselves half the time on what Greyhawk is or should be.
I don't agree....
Saracenus.... who watered in your cereal bowl?
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Right now I would say it is complete conjecture. We really don't know if there is even going to be 4e Greyhawk in the next 2 or 3 years let alone what shape of form it will take.
You are most likely correct, but something was said to start this. No we don't know, but "if" there was and "if “it was "retro'd" as GVD has gleaned from third party sources, then it’s good to get some grief off the head about such sacrilege against our individual and shared perspectives of Greyhawk.
My apologies if this comes across the wrong way, no insult is intended. I value your opinion and respect your views, and hopefully I perceive your demeanour the wrong way, but did you just "bash" some of us for being interested/concerned in what "may" happen to GH in WotC's 4th Ed manipulative hands? I am no authority to this, do you presume your position Sir as an authority on this?
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while you don't see a need to put Dragonborn and Teiflings into the central setting because of all the "Here There Be Dragons" sections of Oerik available, there is one in the eyes of WotC.
How do you know this?
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We are not popular with Design and Development, trust me. We are seen as one big pain in the **** because we pick apart every little thing that comes out.
I hear what you’re saying, so does everyone else here. It's only understandable that we are going to be opinionated and verbal towards WotC, especially when it comes to Greyhawk matters, it’s one of several reasons we are all apart of this specific forum. I feel you take this affrontage against them too personally for someone who is not a part of them.
I would like to believe that in general no one here is delusional enough to believe that what we say is an authority to be heeded, however I do believe as fans, we are free to express our concerns, ideas, perspectives and opinions on GH and about whoever may do what to it, especially if its WotC. If this site is such an insignificant view, then how is it we are such a large pain in the bum to these guys.
If it wasn't for everyone’s interest here of GH and our combined continued support, I don't believe it would have come as far as it has. The amount of material on this site alone attests to this, and some of the major movers and shakers of GH material, ie> the LGJ were or still are a part of this site. The Oerth Journal and its authors/editors, is a huge collection of fan material and something to be greatly respected as a source for a campaign so easily abandoned by WotC. Mort's cartoons are classical and reflective of "this" GH era.
I appreciate the reality of what a 4e GH may be for us if it should ever come to be, and in all likely hood it will come about. I stand by my earlier posts, as "my" opinion on the subject... be it only an opinion.
In defence of the symposium. If a symposium on Greyhawk at GenCon didn't garnner some level of interest from WotC on wanting to know what the "broader" fan base thinks about a 4e GH, then they do not deserve the patronage.
I wasn't bashing anyone. I was being direct. I include myself amongst the sometimes sloppy, antagonistic, opinionated bunch that makes up CF and Greytalk.
Unless people here are making rhetorical posts about why should anything be changed in Greyhawk I am answering the question(s) being posted.
As for how do I know now that WotC wants all core material available for play in their campaigns?
It started back in 3.5 during the Living Greyhawk campaign. We had all sorts of restrictions on what you could or couldn't use from the avalanche of books published by WotC initially. This lasted for a number of years but then there was a shift in the last 4 years.
Each time there was a LG campaign update more and more stuff was "core" or at least access was attainable. This wasn't because the Circle of Six was beneficent, it was because WotC wanted people to be able to use the material in the splat books. They wanted their stuff to be available no matter what.
One of the design goals in 4e was to make all PC playable classes (those in the PH and to a lesser extent in the MM) would balanced at 1st level, no more Level Adjustments. The balancing of the races and classes was intended so that on an organized play level, the material could seamlessly be integrated into the campaigns.
Sure, some races will be campaign specific (FR will have Genesi) and others will be emphasized over others based upon the campaign world. But, everything is in play. Unless I missed something, the FR campaign guide does not exclude anything from the Core Books which includes Warforged.
I cannot find the interviews where they explicitly state they want core material available to all offical WotC products. But I do remember it being said. If I can stumble back upon it, I will post a link.
This is why I am a bit cynical about 4e Greyhawk being accepted here. It is by WotC design directives going to move beyond what we know and are comfortable with here.
Again, I respect peoples desire to keep Greyhawk the way they want it. But to expect WotC to share these values is a waste of time.
I am trying to be realistic and manage expectations (something WotC has Epic Failed at this last year and half) about what will probably be the result of an official 4e Greyhawk Campaign.
Grendelwulf wrote:
It could be worse. A Chronomancer from the year 985 sends a superior Iron Golem back in time to assassinate the mother of Zagyg before he was ever born. All of history will change... dunh-Dunh-DUNH!!!
Brrr... That made me shiver...
...sorry, I just couldn't resist...
Well, I agree WotC will do as they will do. But, we're talking 2010 or '11, right? Do you know how many games we can have until then? Can you estimate how many newer players we can get involved in 4eGH games by then? Let us embrace 4e & the newer players it brings in. Let us show them how we think GH is meant to be played! They will love it! And those that don't...well, you can't save them all... By the time WotC brings out its GH Campaign stuff, our legions...er...new groups of players will not want to give up on all they have played for a full retcon. They'll accept some elements being brought in and some being discarded. It can be a win-win for all of the players, pre-4e and new.
As for "off the map" Dragonborn, Tieflings, etc...this is the smoothest way to go. For example, Dragonborn may fit in nicely with some of my undeveloped GH-Oriental Adventures areas. Sure, they were a big ol' Empire in their day (hmm, Celestial Imperium & the Dragon Isles from the GH Annual #1 map seems a likely place), but they were eventually defeated (by what!? Another plot hook!) and are a mere shadow of their former selves. They may have helped the OA human areas to develop with all of their martial outlook and sense of honor etc.
Okay, Oerth may be getting set up to be a little stronger in the magical/planar department. Or maybe not, depending on your view. Having had my share of Planescape/GH adventures, it is easily seen how something may have weakened the boundaries between the reals/worlds/multiverses in general. Tieflings could be a side effect. Or a symptom of some greater lurking threat.
When times of change come upon us, I am reminded of what my grandfather used to say,
"Why is it so warm? And what are we all doing in this handbasket?"
For me, some of the possible changes sound interesting enough. Others I'm not so sure about. I am happy GH is on the agenda though. That is a glimmer of hope and maybe, just maybe WOTC will listen to the GH community on this. It will all hinge on how well the FR books are recieved. If by chance FR isn't what they hoped for the other settings may get a better treatment. _________________ Agape,
Any reboot is just going to rehash locations about which older fans already have loads of information. I'd prefer to see articles in Dragon detailing a town, village, mysterious location, that we haven't seen before or 4e conversion of a famous npc. I find the average Oerth Journal to be of much more use to me. Offering up suggested GH locations for generic mods like Paizo used to can be a help, although retro-fitting was rarely ideal.
But then I'm of the shcool that actually likes to have information to refer to just in case my characters decide they'll take a different route to Chendl this time. I don't like to be left making up a mayor, village idiot, and painted doxy on the hoof when they stop off at Seren for tea and crumpets.
[Philip Athans]: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world.
[Bruce Cordell]: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril.
While this was explicitly a FR design goal but it shows you that WotC is going to add to the Core Rules, not reduce them. It is my contention this will carry over to all their campaigns.
Saracenus said; We are not popular with Design and Development, trust me. We are seen as one big pain in the **** because we pick apart every little thing that comes out.
A pain in the a*** and proud. I think being a pain is the very least I can be to a bunch of people trying to divest me of my hard earned cash by trying to flog me the emperor's new clothes.
Any reboot is just going to rehash locations about which older fans already have loads of information.
After loss of depth through negation of canon with a "never happened" approach in a reboot, PaulN6's expressed concern is my greatest as well.
I don't need nor want another treatment of the City of Greyhawk. I have three now! City of GH Box, FtA Campaign Guide and The Adventure Begins. And this doesn't even touch on Mona's CoG fixation in the Living GH Journal and then again in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, in both of which we got a fourth treatment, albeit piecemeal, of the City of Greyhawk. Enough already!
I get that if one thinks in terms of total GH newbies, rehashing the setting makes a certain sense and might even be said to be essential. However, unless you think you are going to get 100,000 GH newbies, I think some consideration needs to be given to those passing familiar, or more, with GH as it is.
A compromise, IMO, would be ideal. Okay. Give the City of Greyhawk, that Old Grey Mare, one more turn for the kiddies, but then branch out for Pholtus' sake! Unfortunately, I think PaulN6 is likely on to the truth that a total setting rehash is more likely.
In such case, Dragonborn, Tieflings, Eladrin and some cosmic calamity to explain the loss of the Great Wheel are likely the only "new" elements in a new GH. At least this is a fear I entertain. I want to be wrong on this score; I could even take a lossof canon in a reboot if the reboot presented in substantial fashion something beyond the Flanaess to the West. Now that _would_ be an acceptable compromise IMO as I could jusrt meld in the new Western Oerth material. Hope springs eternal. _________________ GVD
As I have given this more thought perhaps it isn't the calamity some feel. As saracenus mentioned are influence is slim at best but if the fandom of GH responses with a resounding - NO - We lose even that slim chance of being part of the process. Make no mistake the changes will happen.
The Dragonborn, Tieflings, Eladrin can be worked into GH; Tieflings and Eladrin easier given realms like GK, Iuz and Celene - Dragonborn seems so gimmicky but I have absorbed worse.
As for the retrofit - remember the events of the FtA and beyond aren't erased they haven't happened yet - Given the emphasis of Wotc an core books and subsequent splatbooks rather the game world persay. The chances are reasonable Wotc will not go far enough to complicate the timeline. For those that wish to use the FtA and beyond canon. Simply write a few transitionary paragraphs once the game reaches the events.
The SB has come out of the shadows lured by conquest; the northern horror Iuz is on the march. Sprurred by tales of distant bloodshed Great Kingdom pours from their eastern empire to march against its enemies real and imagined. - Cue FtA and aftermath.
While this was explicitly a FR design goal but it shows you that WotC is going to add to the Core Rules, not reduce them. It is my contention this will carry over to all their campaigns.
So let me come at this in another direction. Everything adapted for 4E will be Core and those elements will all apply to all their game worlds? So, GH aside, when Eberron comes out Warforged are then legal in FR games. Then lets say they move on to Dragonlance 4e so Kender and Draconians are now on the loose in Eberron. Then for fun lets say they adapt Ravenloft next adding Core rules for Horror checks and Darklords which now can be inserted to Dragonlance for instance. Darksun, psionics. Am I being hyperbolic or is that the idea? Make all 4e elements Core across the game worlds?
1) If its Core, it exists in a campaign (unless specified otherwise in the Campaign Guide).
2) If something is campaign specific (e.g. Genesi in FR) it is not considered Core and thus does not exist in a different campaign (unless otherwise specified in the latter Campaign Guide).
This is in line with the the design goal of exception based rules. In D&D 4e the core rule set is the same across the board (fire does x, y, and z... always) except when another rule grants and exception.
Example a weapon does X damage + Str Mod. A power might doe 4[w] + Str Mod of fire damage. The [w] equals the damage done normally by the weapon and according to the power it is multiplied by 4 and the Str Mod of the PC in fire damage.
As a side note, Warforged are in the Core 4e MM, thus according to the design directive for FR, they exist in Faerun.
So, if a Dragonlance Campaign and Player's Guide has Kender instead of in MM2, MM3, etc., then it is DL specific and would not be found elsewhere.
This makes sense since another design directive is that no book will republish material from another. So we should not see Genesi in later versions of the MM.
But as this is conjecture (and I am extrapolating here) there is a but in all of this. It could very well be that material published in the FR campaign guide will be counted as core and thus exist in subsequent campaigns. I don't have a quote or remember one that defines the above as true or not true.
I would say that we should comb through the interviews and blogs of the with the game designers and I will bet we come across what "rules" are.
Now this doesn't prevent someone from converting their campaign to 4e and cherry picking what races, classes, feats and powers are available. You really can do what you please.
Yeah I had a feeling of that Sar, well now that I'm in perspective, what does GH have to offer that is 'campaign exclusive'? In previous editions its always been the Core, but for the first time GH could be coming from the outside looking in.
Maybe its exclusivity lies in its being the closest to Core. It is a Jack-of-All-Trades realm. Representing the Core allows all things to flow through it. Maybe GH will be the 'hub' realm where all of the others can easily interact/travel to and from/etc. Hmm, Greyscape anyone?
Seriously, players & DM's not wanting a specific all-too-mapped-out world like FR or DL or EB may actually have GH as a starting point for their own brave new world. A world that will be taken by its DMs and players and molded into something uniquely their own. With the possible chance that elements covered in other Campaign books will be more easily allowed in GH. That's what we get for Zagyg creating all of those demi-planes inside Castle GH.
Not to mention, GH is home to Vecna...the only entity to punch his way out of Ravenloft's Demiplane of Dread.
What we can agree upon is that no two GH fans want the same setting.
Some like the 1e GH, some like the 2e GH, and some like 3e GH. Some like the novels while others do not. Some want to include Living Greyhawk materials while others do not.
Completely destroying the setting into something all GH fanatics universally despise might be a great way to pull the fans together. ;)
That being said, I saw we advance the timeline by 200 years or more. Let Big T out to play for awhile, then pick up the pieces. Flood a few coastal regions for good measure, raise a few islands chains from the sea, and make the Handmaiden Celene a hollow Dyson Sphere.
I am intruiged by this reboot, though I have no intention of buying 4thEd. I find it ironic how, after all the energy we expend here on decrying some of the "damage" done to canon since FtA and beyond, when WotC basically says, okay, screw it... we'll try again and ignore all that stuff.... we complain about it. 8)
What we can agree upon is that no two GH fans want the same setting.
But I thought all GH fans universally wanted MY version of Greyhawk!!??
Personally, I would be against a reboot from 576, as almost all of the best GH material postdates that. It would be a sin to wipe it out. I would be even MORE against a 100 or 200 year advancement in the timeline, because frankly, thats not Greyhawk anymore. And look at what they did to the Realms.
If I were in charge, what would I do? Start the new Greyhawk right after the release of the LGG. There was nothing significant published after that (from a GH history point of view), and all of what happened in the zillions of LG mods is completely unavailable to anyone who didn't happened to play in any of those mods at a convention (even then, even the most-travelled, obsessive LG player could have possibly only seen a tiny subset of that material, and certainly all new GH fans coming into the game with 4E could never get there hands on them, unlike OOP pdfs) and hence is effectively irrelevant.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, mysteries, magic, mechanics, and more!!
Even useful to 4E'ers
.... I was waiting for you to respond... about time!
I met Iquander at GenCon UK, kind of mentioned this possible 4e reboot of Greyhawk and I was surprised he had not heard of it yet... so we may hear from him... I'm hoping so. I also hope a few others of notable GH accomplishments pay tribute to this topic.
So Maldin, how was Mexico? Was it an inspiring trip?
All things considered, I also think that rewinding the clock to 576 CY is the best way to go. I'll be honest-I absolutely despise a lot of FtA canon and post-FtA canon, and so a lot of material posted in the Oerth Journals and elsewhere has very limited appeal to me because it incorporates From the Ashes. If you want to incorporate it, fine, but FtA isn't being shoved down my throat, and I very much appreciate that.
As to the business of tieflings, dragonborn and eladrin, I would offer this as a compromise-they exist, but they're rare. Dragonborn, especially, are migrating into the Flanaess, originally hailing from the southlands, or from across the Solnor Ocean, say, and they're slowly spreading through the continent. As many of them are isolated and unsure of themselves in this new land, they naturally take to the adventuring life, supporting themselves through mercenary work and adventuring, as per their description in the Core materials.
They are common enough that players can play them if they wish...but by the same token they are rare enough that they do not have a tremendous, large-scale influence on the setting the way some fans fear. There are few organized communities, and no large-scale nations or kingdoms, which is what a lot of fans are jumpy about; I think that if it's specifically noted that dragonborn are uncommon, everybody wins. They're included for players who want them, live according to their descriptions in the Core material, but are rare enough that players and DMs who don't want them can handwave or ignore them if they want. Same thing with tieflings-they exist in places like the Horned Society, Iuz or the Great Kingdom, but there are no large-scale tiefling societies or anything like that. Same thing with eladrin-they exist, but they're rare, and there are certainly not enough of them to drastically alter the Flanaess in any large-scale manner.
So Maldin, how was Mexico? Was it an inspiring trip?
It was awesome! I'll try to get some photos on my website. The three major sites I saw (if you want to Google them) were Coba (which I climbed, still surrounded by dense jungle), Tulum (amazing site on a cliff overlooking the sea), and the golden-nugget itself... Chichen Itza (which words alone cannot possibly describe).
Now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion for which there can be no agreement. ;-)
What we can agree upon is that no two GH fans want the same setting. . . . Completely destroying the setting into something all GH fanatics universally despise might be a great way to pull the fans together. ;)
This might not, ultimately, be that far off. Prior to the 4e launch, I heard the phrase "firing your customers" tossed around and I have now encountered it in my MBA classes as well. As odd odd as it sounds, "firing your customers" can be a legitimate or at least actual strategy. For example, Best Buy has notably used this strategy to try to rid itself of its less profitable customers, those deemed to actually cost Best Buy money in the long run. Are GH "customers" so problematic that we deserve to be "fired" by Wotc? Has Wotc demonstrated any ability to add significant numbers of new customers of any sort? Are we all they have got? And what would THAT say about GH? ACK! _________________ GVD
Are GH "customers" so problematic that we deserve to be "fired" by Wotc?
Which might explain why they will not license the setting to a publisher that would treat Oerth with dignity and respect. Best to let it die a painful and horrible death, making GH fans convert to a newer setting, than to be troubled with a 4e conversion.
I'm not convinced that this is true though. Dragon & Dungeon become more popular under a 'pro-Greyhawk' editor.
Having said that, Greyhawk only formed part of the package, and the DDI is set up so that, for many people, the magazine content is only a small part of why they are subscribing.
I still think a Greyhawk article/adventure every few months would be a sensible way for them to go. Tease us a bit and keep their finger on the pulse as to how interested we are.
If they intend to wait until a new book is out to release anything Greyhawk related at all, then I think I will be very unhappy. I want my Greyhawk clerics fleshed out now, dammit!
My guess is that with DDI they will release an occasional Greyhawk article for a couple of reasons.
1. They want us to subscribe so they get more sales. If they think they can get Greyhawk fans to do so because of an ocasional article thrown in they will. They will use it as "bait" to influence our purchasing choices. Eventaully they will hope die hards will convert because the Greyhawk we receive will be in 4th edition flavor. This adds to their sales for DDI plus entices people to switch over to 4th editon in order to effectively use the articles published.
2. They will also use the feedback they get on such articles to decide if they really want to bother with a 4th edition Greyhawk supplement of any kind. If Greyhawk fans don't grab up the articles they may pass on Greyhawk for a better received world. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Ok, number one... I love the top Banner change, "Canonfire!, Editions change, Greyhawk Endures." Nice touch.
Second Its just an observation, but the Living Greyhawk fan base was large from the Living game stand point and the number of gamers who were upset from the decision to end LG was large.
Then there is the "core GH" group who they've diss’ed right from the get go of 3.5 (I kind of consider this sites patronage apart of this group, some may disagree?).
If WotC, who already alienated a large number of core GH fans and then LGH fans (which I'm relatively certain a reboot would disturb them as well once "alleged" word gets out there more, being a player of both, personally speaking, it disappointed me).
Then with the loss of gamers to the new 4th ed concept alone... let’s not forget the "fantastic" WotC idea to shut down the printed materials of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines. My math not being my strong point but I think the numbers are not in their favour... time will tell. There are a lot of other game systems out there getting a larger audience because of this... Path Finder being one of them.
Some may disagree with me, saying a 4e and a 4e GH is the best thing to come along, I'm sure WotC would enjoy to hear that and its good you enjoy it...However, with the amount of money (and mean money... could've bought myself a house likely, definitely need one to house all of it) and time (since October 1981), I believe I have earned my right to bitch and get upset and voice a disgruntled opinion at times to these changes... just like a good number of other gamers out there. I have and still maintain that I will "try" to give 4e its due and learn it (with some minor investment), however the new PF Game System (similar to 3.5 minus some faults...house rules will fix it...always have, always will...) is attracting my attention and wallet... by the way, as an older gamer now, not necessarily more mature I have a good job and can afford the hobby better than when I had a weekly allowance to blow on gaming goods.
...the banter is almost done... I'm getting to the point here...
...if WotC doesn't need me as a customer, and would decide to fire a % of their customer base... power to them, they are doing a great job of alienating "long time" customers with some of the **** moves made over the last few years... and one does not need a Business Degree to figure that out!
This rumour now plaguing the moment of a 4e Greyhawk... yup! It has me concerned, what will I do with my hard earned coin now ...because it’s not going towards 4e to any great degree as I have in the past or especially to such a 4e Greyhawk as being proposed (hmmm... maybe that house ).
No loyalty is owed to WotC (puppets of the Hasbro overlords ), I do believe they owe an amount of loyalty to the patrons who made the game what it was... sadly not what it has become. They might just redeem a bit of it by doing right by Greyhawk, listening carefully to the fan base (especially its core group) and provide something that compliments the Greyhawk we generally know of as now.
I’ll get off my soap box, it’s been a slice and thanks for taking the time to read this, regardless if you agree or not. I think a pint or three is in order... dam! I’ve become a G.O.G.
Eventaully they will hope die hards will convert because the Greyhawk we receive will be in 4th edition flavor. ....
They will also use the feedback they get on such articles to decide if they really want to bother with a 4th edition Greyhawk supplement of any kind. If Greyhawk fans don't grab up the articles they may pass on Greyhawk for a better received world.
Honestly, for me (and I think that this is true of most), I think that the setting is the most important part. This will be the sixth version of the rulse that I have been through, and GH has been there through it all. If they will just convert it in a "gentle" manner that's not like FtA, or like how they did Faerun, I will be okay with it. If they can manage to ease me into it, I would gladly give 4th Edition a try (if only in Greyhawk), but if it's jarring, it's an absolute no-go.
I'd be okay with them testing the water with a few articles, and be happy for it. I liked the "Places of Mystery",and that was hardly published on a regular basis. I especially liked 'em since they often contained LG info for adaption into that campaign. Plus, it was in a nice, printable fomat, so I could add them to my campaign notebook, or just save them for archiving. (Or both.) Frankly, I am one that would subscribe if that's where the GH content was.
Start the new Greyhawk right after the release of the LGG. There was nothing significant published after that (from a GH history point of view), and all of what happened in the zillions of LG mods is completely unavailable to anyone who didn't happened to play in any of those mods at a convention (even then, even the most-travelled, obsessive LG player could have possibly only seen a tiny subset of that material, and certainly all new GH fans coming into the game with 4E could never get there hands on them, unlike OOP pdfs) and hence is effectively irrelevant.
I'm curious, who owns the rights to all the LG mods? From your description, it doesn't sound like WotC owns any LG material except for the LGG.
Also, how many years did LG advance the timeline of GH? The LGG was set in 591 C.Y. from memory.
I'm curious, who owns the rights to all the LG mods? From your description, it doesn't sound like WotC owns any LG material except for the LGG.
Also, how many years did LG advance the timeline of GH? The LGG was set in 591 C.Y. from memory.
I think when they ended the campaign, the rights technically revert to the authors. There were dozens of adventures in every region every year, not to mention all of the Core mods. But, to me, to suggest that just because a player hasn't seen the material it becomes "irrelavent" is a bit off the mark. When WoTC publishes a book, we haven't seen it before, and if someone is new, they've never seen the old folio or boxed set. It's all new to us at some point. WoTC could likely make a bookif they wanted to summarize all of the events that led up to the assassination of some of the Directing Oligarchy and whatnot (As seen in the "Greyhawk Grumbler") that actually played out in LG. There is so much material there, I would hate to see them just say, "Nah, everythinng that all you fans played, and all those stories that authors wrote just really doesn't matter." Every single nation across the Flanaess has had current events.
The whole point of everything there was that it was fan-based. Everything that everyone is saying here is that they should listen to their fan-base, and not do something absurd with the setting. Thousands and thousand of GH fans participated in an eight-year campaign, and I think that they ought to be included, just as everything up to the LGG included all of the material from the 70s and 80s mods. (The LGG even obliqely refers to "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks"). They could clean up the continuity a bit, if needed (which I don't think that it would be since the LG staff was very particular about canon). But even the stuff that Erik Mona wrote for Dragon included events that occured in LG. If that's not a ringing endorsement, I don't know what is.
What we can agree upon is that no two GH fans want the same setting.
I don't agree
Seriously; while we may all be anxious about the changes to come - they will come. So instead of spitting into the wind rather how best to insert them within GH should be discussed.
I think when they ended the campaign, the rights technically revert to the authors. There were dozens of adventures in every region every year, not to mention all of the Core mods. But, to me, to suggest that just because a player hasn't seen the material it becomes "irrelavent" is a bit off the mark. When WoTC publishes a book, we haven't seen it before, and if someone is new, they've never seen the old folio or boxed set. It's all new to us at some point. WoTC could likely make a bookif they wanted to summarize all of the events that led up to the assassination of some of the Directing Oligarchy and whatnot (As seen in the "Greyhawk Grumbler") that actually played out in LG. There is so much material there, I would hate to see them just say, "Nah, everythinng that all you fans played, and all those stories that authors wrote just really doesn't matter." Every single nation across the Flanaess has had current events.
The timeline was advanced one year each IRL year, so it is now Harvester of CY598, IIRC.
In my view, this would be an unmitigated disaster for the setting. I didn't like a lot of what I saw in the LG material, not the least of which was one radical change after another, turning Tenh into an ash wasteland and an "alien invasion". The roller-coaster nature of a lot of changes made for some pretty poor-quality material, and the absolute last thing GH needs is to have all these drastic changes incorporated as canon.
And, admittedly, I absolutely hate having someone else's game foisted upon me as canon. I never participated in LG, and so I do not consider it to hold any water. For me, the timeline remains at 591 CY, where it has been frozen these past eight years.
If you want to incorporate some of the background detail created by the Triads, fine, but if Tenh is a barren ash wasteland in Greyhawk, half the Directing Oligarchy is dead, and aliens have invaded, I'm done. For me, advancing things to 598 CY is a non-starter; if WotC goes that way and incorporates LG, then I'm done with the setting. I'll continue to submit material to this site, but if LG becomes canon then the setting is dead to me.
I think when they ended the campaign, the rights technically revert to the authors . . . WoTC could likely make a bookif they wanted to summarize all of the events that led up to the assassination of some of the Directing Oligarchy and whatnot.
I'd be interested in reading a book such as this. I wonder if the events of the FR Living City campaign were established as canon after that wrapped up?
Also, whether or not anyone has said the new Living Realms adventures will be established as canon?
. . . the DDI is set up so that, for many people, the magazine content is only a small part of why they are subscribing.
I still think a Greyhawk article/adventure every few months would be a sensible way for them to go. Tease us a bit and keep their finger on the pulse as to how interested we are.
EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
My guess is that with DDI they will release an occasional Greyhawk article for a couple of reasons.
I would be violently opposed to any proceeding in this manner.
First, I do not consider anything published solely in an elecronic medium as "canon" because the electronic medium is entirely too ephemeral, IMO.
Second, I would object in the strongest terms to being "played" by Wotc with the odd Greyhawk article, frequent enough to be annoying to keep track of but sufficiently infrequent to keep Greyhawk "in its place" at the back of the bus.
Third, I will do nothing to see the DDI succeed and everything to encourage its failure because the DDI is the camel's nose under the tent -the rest of the camel is waiting outside to come in, spitting, snorting, defecating, biting and generally smelling. Let the DDI succeed and you can kiss print goodbye to a faretheewell. It would not be if but when.
Fourth, that we are talking about tiefling, dragonborn, eladrin, Astral Sea 4e Greyhawk here, the occasional article would be like water torture - where the water is also scalding hot or highly acidic or disgustingly brackish.
Fourth, that we are talking about tiefling, dragonborn, eladrin, Astral Sea 4e Greyhawk here, the occasional article would be like water torture - where the water is also scalding hot or highly acidic or disgustingly brackish.
QFT. As I said in an anti-4e thread on WOtC's boards (before the thread was closed, of course):
"I play 3.5e and have no intention of converting to 4e, at least for several years. When 4e was being unveiled, the creators went out of their way to tell us to end our current campaigns and get ready to start again from scratch. Hello? I like my current campaign, thankyouverymuch.
And then 4e went out of it's way to change things that, IMO, did not need changing. The planar cosmology (I like the ethereal), defining PCs and monsters in terms of their combat roles, and the lack of respect for established monsters and classes are all reasons 4e makes me nauseous.
And then we can move on to the vacuous abomination that is the DDI. Never mind that it is currently vaporware and will most likely never see the light of day, but I am a Mac user (strike one), my games require 3D movement (strike two), and I rarely allow core races for use by players (strike three, at least until they allow all sentient monsters as PCs).
The 4e MM is a colossal disappointment, at least from the perspective of someone like myself, who runs non-standard games. My current game is set beneath the surface of the sea. The 4e MM is quite lacking in this department; no sea elves, locathah, or merfolk - the "core races" in my game. My next game was to involve greenhags and awakened forest animal PCs - oh well. And then there is the layout; the book seems more like a collection of trading cards taped into a book, than the reference manual is should be.
My guess is that with DDI they will release an occasional Greyhawk article for a couple of reasons.
GVD said:
Quote:
I would be violently opposed to any proceeding in this manner.
I would not want to see this either but I do believe it is a direction they would take things. Greyhawkers are perhaps the most difficult group of D&D players to convret to 4th edition and get to subscribe to DDI. By placing Greyhawk content here, it is the only place we can go in order to get "official" content. Now I do believe that the content in Oerth Journal and Canonfire exceeds WOTC content primarly because it is written by people who have a passion/love for what they are writing about.
With that said though, I can see WOTC leaking out Greyhawk articles in order to entice Greyhawks to buy DDI. If they bite, then great, if not, well WOTC didn't get enough interest to do a Greyhawk book(s) for 4th edition. This possibility brings in more DDI because Greyhawkers might be salivating for tidbits and it makes some 4th edition sales.
Now as everyone here knows, I think that WOTC is lower than a bulettes belly. I don't trust them to follow through with promises in any shape or form. I believe they sugar coat things to get people excited only to find it leaves a sour taste in your mouth. I for one, have not and will not buy 4th edition nor will I with DDI. D&D should remain (and always remain) a paper and pen RPG not a simulated computer program. They may have fired me as some say, but I disowned them. Bottom line, they lost out because I no longer buy their products nor will that change in the future. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
In all honesty, crawlspeed for D&D but on the positive note, I've been working on creating a RPG for the Legion of Super-Heroes Comic book so needless to say I have been a very busy person. Also need to turn my attention back to dragons after issue #26 of Oerth Journal comes out (crosses fingers and toes).
Does anybody here like dragons? _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I did indirectly throw a coral dragon at my PCs, awhile back. They got to see the dragon from a distance and witness the devastation its breath weapon; a stream of sharpened oyster shells, can cause. They wisely chose not to engage the beastie.
EileenProphetofIstus
Does anybody here like dragons?
Yes, red dragons in particular. Spicy & extra crispy! Yumm.
I'm willing to give 4e a try. I have never had trouble adapting my games for the enjoyment of myself & my players. I once had a player with a minotaur paladin long before Dragonlance had their Taladas supplement (For 2 years, I had to listen to some of my pure-rule-players criticize me for allowing it, and it was so much fun when TSR published it...Hah!). My gaming circles have changed so many times over the years, I must have a dozen variants of my world, some taking place before, during, and after the current GH timeframe. My groups have played and explored half of Oerth, into Greyspace with Spelljammer and beyond into the vast mysteries of the multiverse itself through Planescape. Why not another realm? It's not like I'm doing a George Lucas and saying, "well, that isn't really the true vision of what I had wanted so it never happened and this is the way it really did and you just never noticed it before."
If WoC thinks they can "fire me", let them try. No one is getting my dice until they can pry them from my cold, dead hand! I will use a GH-inspired world as much as possible. If WoC won't support it, fine. More fun for me & my players. If anything, it will make the task harder for any new players to "know what to expect" in my world. There won't be a book they can just buy and read and think they can know it all. Of course, as some newer players may be hesitant to buy the endless stream of WoC tomes to be hitting the market. I don't want players not playing because they think they need a dozen books just to role-play. That's my job as DM. Not to mention, in my many years, it would always be nice at Christmas when my players actually got me new books, just so I could implement them into our games. This way, we all actually benefited.
Surprise, surprise! 'Hawking is a learning experience. It's a brave, new world of endless possibilities. It always has, and it always will be. If I can get a group into GH and get them to make the world their own, I have done my job! Take THAT, WoC!
Hmm, what is this box of soap I am standing on?
Let me get down now...
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Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
Those sons of a fatherless curr...
, then Greyhawk shall continue to survive.
Yeah, right! There may be some restructuring of the site in the near future, but that has nothing to do with 4e. These plans have been under discussion for a long, long time(nothing too drastic mind you). Canonfire! will remain pretty much the same. There will simply, and inevitably, be more 4e content posted to the site as people write it. The only way it will drown out other non-4e material is if those people with an interest in non-4e material don’t step up to the plate and write something for the non-4e stuff themselves. Yes, everyone has to put up or shut up basically(yes, I’m looking at you “Greyhawk- Other Game Systems” people who have yet to "ROCK!" their newly established forum).
, we can say all we want, in the end this WotC crew will put "their mark" on GH, just like D&D 4th and FR, no second guessing that. It's business, and somewhere's in the marketing scheme core GH fans won't bring enough coin in to justify the cost?
And along comes some smart**** saying "well obviously it's this". 
