It seems some find Iuz necessary to any defination of Greyhawk.
If Iuz is an immutable constant, and is so important to GH as the premier evil, then GH is in large measure stagnant.
If GH cannot be imagined without Iuz, I think the setting is being sold way short.
Iuz need not be "killed." He does need to be sharply checked, IMO.
You can imprison Iuz.
You can ascend him to lesser godhood, ala Vecna.
You can drastically cut back Iuz' empire, confining him to a much smaller area.
IMO, Iuz too much seen to be taken seriously. All the great villains/nemisis wax and wane. Moriarty, Dr. Doom, Q, Blofeld, name your genre. Smart authors don't keep going to the well and smart authors, when they do reuse villains keep the villain interesting by changing the villain's circumstances. The villain's position is not guaranteed.
Moriarty goes to jail, and for a time is no longer a threat.
Dr. Doom is desposed in Latvaria and his threat is greatly reduced.
Q loses his powers, is thrown out by the Continum etc.
Blofeld is apparently killed.
If the villain is a constant, the villain is a cartoon, a joke and ultimately ineffective in any serious way. Any villain who is a constant becomes by turns cliche, over-exposed and cheesy. Iuz is no exception.
In the GH story arc, Iuz was imprisoned, then freed, then conquered an empire and presently holds that empire, albeit with difficulty since almost all the fiends were banished. Iuz has waxed.
Now, it is time for him to wane. All good villains get defeated. They may come back but they get defeated. Stasis is simply not an option in anything other than a cartoon, and not even in the better of cartoons.
Iuz has had a good run. Now, its time for heroes to take him down. He may be back; he may not. But he won't be a joke this way.
I completely agree. Greyhawk has so much more potential in it than the regular combating of Iuz. I personally feel he ranks up there with Tharizdun and the Scarlet Brotherhood, as being overused, almost like a crutch.
I have to be honest though, I am going to be using Iuz in my upcoming campaign, but on the threshold of the waning you speak about. Over the course of the campaign one of two outcomes will occur. The party will successfully thwart Iuz's extraplanar plans and thus confront him directly (extraplanar activities involve tracking down artifacts capable of assisting in his defeat). This will either result in a campaign ending TPK or Iuz will have his ties to to Prime severed when he is "killed." The other possible outcome, is one mentioned, ascension to Lesser Deity status (which is what his extraplanar activity involves). This outcome is actually likely to occur regardless, though having the party "kill" Iuz seems much more exciting than just learning that Iuz has gained even more power. Of course, the outcome of this campaign will impact my further campaigns when/if a power vaccum occurs in the Empire of Iuz.
Of course he's a cliche. He has to be. What good is a fantasy setting without a Great Evil?
Now, where I like Greyhawk is that Ridding The World Of Evil is a lot harder once you pick up the shovel. Sometimes your alleged allies won't help out. Sometimes you actually have to side with evil to destroy it. Sometimes you have to trade a greater evil for a lesser one. And often times, your contribution is valuable only as long as it takes someone else to fill the vacuum you've created. (Without stirring up a flamewar, look at recent history or WWI for complicated political situations.)
Frankly, I like the idea of the party "whacking" Iuz, or at least playing a strong supporting role. This is far, far into the future for my party, but is what epic adventures are made of.
He's done his evil, it is falling apart (as evil often does), and heroes will rise to defeat him. Things will not be perfect, but they may be better for a while. Greyhawk allows me to make it gritty and more real-world.
I completely agree with you. Since 2000, i am running a GH campaign whose theme is the destruction of the Old One. I love the story of the Cambion, but its time to use and end him well. Just because he may be destroyed , it doesn't mean there are not other villains. My first post in Canonfire described a little of my plans:
If the villain is a constant, the villain is a cartoon, a joke and ultimately ineffective in any serious way. Any villain who is a constant becomes by turns cliche, over-exposed and cheesy. Iuz is no exception.
And I say, if the villain is a constant, forcing the villain to be a cartoon or joke and ultimately leaving the villain ineffective in any serious way?
Then the DM did a poor job at runnig his campain.
I've been DM'ing in Greyhawk since I got the '83 box and I have yet used Iuz a a main villain or plot or in my campaigns other than an occasional side adventure.
Yes the players know who he is, yes they have encountered plans by his minions to do wicked things and have stopped them. Yes he's done all that wicked evil stuff. BUt yes there are other plot hooks you can use as a DM then "Oh my gawd! Stop Iuz and his evil plans!"
So if you're complaining about his overuse? Then quit overusing him.
I don't quite understand what this kick of yours is with Iuz. Why do you put so much effort into hating a fictional character that has no impact on your campaign? If you don't like him, don't use him. I don't see the point in continuing to put everyone else down for using him as an iconic villain.
And that's essentially what you're doing by going on, and on, and on about Iuz being 'teh suxxor' as it implies that anyone else who uses him is somehow stupid or inferior. You might've been running Greyhawk campaigns for fifteen years and are sick to death of him, but others aren't. Let them have their fun.
If this were just a thread to promote the creation of alternatives to Iuz, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's just this attitude that Iuz is stupid, and overused and that he should be somehow 'dealt with' to 'fix' Greyhawk that bugs me. _________________ In more modern times, only Delglath of Rinloru is known to have crafted any items from the stone of this atrocious place. Even masters of the dark arts such as Xaene and Karoolck would hesitate to follow.
I have been using GH since the Folio, and have never used him as the protaganist either. As a matter of fact, I do not think that Iuz, Vecna, Tzunk, Ivid, or any of the Major Villans have ever been the focus of one of our campaigns. With Greyhawk not generally being a place for epic play, and with all the work that would be involved with maintaining the fictional reality, I have always found these people to be more useful as the indsidious puppet masters from afar. (As a player we went after Turosh once, but never got close.)
Besides, in my game there are only a few ways to beat them, and they are not always fun. 1) Meet them on their own terms, i.e. become the focus of a major political movement or nation (burecratic and slow, and d20 is not the best resolution system for this, though something could be crafted I suppose. My players avoid such challengesfor this reason, besides...no adventure, no loot!). 2) Gang up with Mordenkainen, Tenser, Zagig, etc., to go hunt them down in a planar exorcism of sorts. This too is a lot of work, and gaining cooperation has only a limited chance for sucess, so it has not been tried IMG. 3) Get a group of epic level characters, and go get them... except Greyhawk does not have many epic levels; and in my world there will never a whole party that becomes epic, it is just not what a party does. (I think a new post about epics may be useful!)
So, as none of these have been tried, Iuz is not a real problem for me. Defeating him as a primary goal is a rather Tolkienesque touch, and I know that in my early years of gaming everyone of us wanted to topple him as a moral and poetic imperative. Of course we had all just finished LOTR for the third time. But we just needed a new longsword and castle first, and well time got away from us.
I wouldn't underestimate this as a motivation/charm/attraction of Iuz as a game vehicle/mechanic. GH is popular, D&D is even more so, but LOTR is a phenomenon upon whose coat tails most of this rides. Someday soon, I believe D&D will be out of the closet, and will be as respectable as Friday night poker (It has already come a looooong way since the early 80's.)
GH is a big place, with several dozen other good fights to pick, and plenty of history to pick through. I have found plenty of advesaries, without worrying too much about the published ones. This also allows my current players and future players, to go on with any other campaign or reading, and not wonder "didn't we kill him back in 591?" Thus, my campaigns are generally consistent with most of the published stuff, without being canned.
So this is just a suggestion, based on what has worked for me... make up a villan more palatable to you. Make it a group, a guild, a demon, a man, a extra planar force, whatever you enjoy. Do not give he/it/them stats, just a name and a good strong concept paper... one page has been excellent for me. I like to make them nearly impossible to find, or if they no where they are, the characters do not have the power to get there...yet. We don't want the wee little PC's accidentally killing off our big bad guy. Such events make the DM work to hard. And when the DM works too hard... well let's just say that bribes are helpful, but may not save the whole party.
Anyway.. tie them, very loosely, to something or someone, or to a time, or a place or event that is already in the game. Ground it in GH superficially enough that you can do anything you wish with it, but with enough detail that the players can dig if they want. Then, you have 20 levels or so before you have to worry about your party trying to take on the usual suspects. And do not worry about him...ever. Now the party, and you, have other things to worry about.
In my view of GH the world is grey there won't be an ultimate showdown between good and evil.
Sadly some players want a tolkien type climax the only problem is after you saved the world last week than what?
From another post about why PC shouldn't kill gods...
Why would any monarch, church, society or syndicate allow powerful members to go off and try to kill Iuz at all when they can be much more useful elsewhere?
By high level :
Fighters: are regional if not national heroes...hold key stronghold, inspire the army, recruitment drives, inspection tours to rally the peoples morale.
Dead: morale plumments, troops suffer, farmer brown loses heart
Priest: leader of church, inspiration to faithful seen as an icon of the faith
Dead:religious turmoil, faithful spiritual crisis becomes evil cult breeding ground.
Wizard: seen as scholars and powerful resources, manufactures magic items vital to the nation.
Dead: loss of magic powers and fear that the magical protections will not be available.
Thief: seen as professional and unofficial organizers of the underworld to maintain control and minimize violence which is seen as bad for business.
Dead:unqualified crime figures sieze power, use violence to retain the position, gang warfare increases, national resources diverted to combat crime and crime profits suffer.
If anything it's selfish to go God hunting and no King, General, High Priest, Court Mage or Underworld Kingpin would allow a talented underling to do something so dumb given the consequences.
I don't quite understand what this kick of yours is with Iuz. Why do you put so much effort into hating a fictional character that has no impact on your campaign? If you don't like him, don't use him. I don't see the point in continuing to put everyone else down for using him as an iconic villain.
Delglath,
I am not putting anyone down for using Iuz in his or her campaign and I won't take offense at your suggestion otherwise. Someone may be using Iuz brilliantly. To the extent that anyone would choose to use Iuz, they would be entirely in line with a major thematic element of WoG.
I am saying that, IMO, Iuz has been done to death as presented in the setting documents to which we all have, more or less, access - the published materials. I think, and attempted to articulate, that I believe the presence of Iuz is overemphasized in the setting.
I hope the distinction I am attempting to draw is clearer. In no way am I attempting to dictate what anyone do in their game or run them down for doing whatever. I am attempting to express my personal feeling that the setting (please note that the setting does not equal any individual campaign) has overused Iuz.
It was my understanding that _the setting_ could be discussed here. I do not believe I am in error.
If you disagree with my opinion of the setting, please do so. I would love to hear a discourse on how Iuz's role in WoG is the best thing since sliced bread. That is not what I am hearing, however. I am hearing personal offense being taken to comments directed at the setting as presented.
If you want to suppose I attempted a personal attack (which I hope I have made clear - I did not) I cannot stop you. I can, however, note that any offense taken is no substitute for any discourse that Iuz is other than what I say, IMO, he is - an overemphasized element of the setting.
With respect to offering an alternative, I intend my first submission to Canonfire to do just that. It will be an adventure and accompanying source material (background, new prestige class, new monsters, new spells etc.) that deals with the return of the Ur-Flan. I hope to have it submitted by this time next week but it is a large document and I want to fully edit it at least once more before submitting. Whether anyone will find it useful or interesting, I cannot say.
Moving along, others have pointed out Iuz' Sauron-like potential. While this is certainly a valid point, I would note that Sauron did not conquer a fifth of Middle Earth outside of Mordor. Given that Iuz has apparently bested Sauron, it would be my opinion that we are overdue for a "ringbearer" to be dealing with him.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises
