Canonfire!

Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:31 pm t1-4 questions

hi friends.

i know, theres a lot of topics there with my name.
i feel bad for creating all this, its like im getting the forum polluded (is this a word?)

so, if you dont mind, i will create another, but hope that its a more definitive place for my questions. hope that ok.

i was reading about the rufus and the other guy tower: that refered as "hommlet keep".

at "Annotated Chronological Table of Events

A World of Greyhawk® Timeline"

theres a entry taht says:
Editor's Note: Given that T1-4 should take place in 579CY, the keep in Hommlet cannot be completed in 576 CY.

the questions is...why not?

there is this info:
"Wilfrick is concerned about rumors that the Temple of Elemental Evil to the south is again active. He has cooperated with the Archcleric of Veluna in building a castle to defend the small village of Hommlet, which is not too far from the Temple's precincts. Recently, that project saw fruition, and only garrisioning the place remains to complete the handiwork started years ago.
DM Note: The completion of the aforementioned castle transpired a couple of years after the events in the initial version of T1 (The Village of Hommlet [pg. 93]"

but i dont get it. maybe my english is rusty, or is just confusing. can anyone help this GH little brother of yours?

Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:46 pm

It can't be completed because at the start of T1, there is only the tower in Homlett, with the rest of the castle just "roughed" in denoting general areas of construction that's going on (or about to start I suppose).

Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:24 am

GAAAH!

this module is confusing!

i have this problem that i cant go no-canon, is very hard to me Embarassed

in page 11, about church of st. cuthbert, theres a entry about how the lesser cleric (Calmer) saves money to "donate" to the builders of the fortress aunder construction.

but wasnt the fortress ready when t1-4 starts?

Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:25 am

Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:10 am

Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:03 am

Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:28 pm

It will take a few years to build the rest of the fortress. I know I've seen a rough timeline on the construction somwhere, but I can't recall where I saw it. It might be in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

People might suggest that the fortress could be finished so much quicker with the aid of magic, but the fact that it is not further illustates that Greyhawk is not oozeing with mages and priests, let alone any who are willing to "waste their time" doing such menial work. People in Greyhawk still have to do almost everything the old fashioned way, such as building castles stone by stone. And mind you, Burne and Rufus are well connected to powerful backers.
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Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:02 am

Depending on how much of the foundation to the rest of the castle has been completed, the size of the workforce, and the percentage of the year that the weather is fair enough to build (Hommlet has better weather than medeival England anyway) I would say that it might be completed by the start of the Greyhawk Wars.

It was not uncommon for a fairly large high priority castle to take ten or more years to complete. Due to the fact the Hommlet Keep is not planned to be that large and it does have solid financial support for building it, three more years seems to be a fair estimate.
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Sat Jul 05, 2008 7:31 am

new question!

ok...we are almost adventuring in homlet.

the thing is that one player character died, and they are on a side quest, helping clerics from heironeous to get rid of raiders.

so, the question is about the history of the attack of the forces of good (the emridy meadows battle, i suppose):

why they didnt blow up the temple?

i mean, it was suppose to be evil, so why not destroing it?

some good mages sealed the demon inside, so are there some people who know about the fact that theres a demon inside the temple?

Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:09 am

It was after the battle - injured and exhausted - Demon was alive but trapped within the temple. Temple itself was built to enslave the demon so its power could be used.

Blow up the temple; enraged demon on the loose - can not kill or it escapes - not good or use the temple binding to confine the demon.

Probably figured to come back when healed and researched how to safely destroy it but never did - it was a multi-national force - things come up. No rush it was confined - ulek is ready to send troops but Furyondy is busy with horned raiders - ulek won't do it alone - next year.

When their is no urgency people procrastinate Wink

Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:55 am

hello greyhawker friends!

2 new questions about t1, and both about the "Elmo" entry:

1- elmo is suppose to be a level 4 ranger, but he have 5 HD. does the orinal book (i have just the t1-2 one) have it diferent?

2-theres a entry about lead preventing magic detection. have anyone read something about this "superman effect" before?

thanks in advance

Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:30 am

Questions
#1) original classes rangers were given two hit dice at first level to acknowledge their rugged outdoors training and lifestyle. That was dropped in the next version as it was deemed all fighter types have physically demanding training and lifestyle.

#2) Their was an early phase IIRC when magic-users had unlimited spell use and module writers tried to come up with rationales to prevent the mages from using magic detection to easily uncover magical items. It really got irritating when mages keep "checking" everything in sight just in case. It wasn't believable for low level NPCs to have elaborate safe boxes for items so some writers tried mundane reasons; lead, natural crystal I believe in a module, in another emersed in water.

Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:22 am

Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:36 pm

ok, thats a silly one:

the inn of the welcome wench.

i look at the dictionay and "wench" shows as:
menina -> "girl"
rapariga -> "cant translate, but would be the oppose to "lad" i think"
prostituta -> "prostitute".

i suppose the correct is "prostitute", but i dont whant to take chances!

Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:14 pm

Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:20 am

hi guys!

this adventure makes me ask a lot of questions, but im glad that in a way, i have lots of DMs from canonfire helping me run this advenure ;)

so, we are finaly interacting with Hommlet citizens: druid, priests, balcksmith, elmo and so on.

for next adventure, a week from now, i intend to run the moathouse.
a few questions about it:

-what in the abyss is a moathouse? Laughing

i mean...what is it good for? (absolutly nothing?)
i cant translate that. it turns to something like " a house in a swamp" kinf of thing. is there a function to have a house in such a place?

-in first map, the "map1 from hommlet to nulb", theres a "danger" skull sign and a "beware evill" horned skull sign, and later, another skull sign with "evil lurks here".

the moathouse is the first or the second one?
the others are "generic" evil?

-its not a life and death thing, but why the zombies from moathouse have diferent xp value? they are all 2hd.

-and finnaly (dont be mad with my silly questions, please! you guys are my only hope!): page 27, interlude: hommlet to nulb.
theres a "players historical notes", and it says that by now, players shold know all this informations (about fire being the first elemental eveil, women being sacrified to blackest evil and so on).

how have you done that?!
is this so commom knowledge that a local farmer would know and tell the adventures??

once again, thanks to all for all this help you gave to me

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:17 am

A moathouse is a fortified manor(a large, reinforced, stone building that is also a home in which people live) with a moat(a deep ditch filled with water) around it. This one has a fortified courtyard too, and intact it would be a very formidable structure for its size and location(in the midst of a swamp).

As to how you get the Interlude information to the players, you can have some of the locals start asking about the adventurers and what they are up to, or telling the adventurers that "Things have really been taking a turn for the worse recently, just like when the Temple of Elemental Evil was active." "The Temple of Elemental Evil? Why do they call it that?" the characters might ask, etc. A lot of the locals were around when the Temple was at the height of its power, and some of them(like Burne, Rufus, and Jaroo) even know details about the place and the cult of Elemental Evil that flourished there. They could pass on some of that info to the characters. The average farmer isn’t going to know as much as the barkeep or the more experienced town members.

The zombie XP differences are probably just typos.

The skull on the map in the forest may refer to an abandoned farm house. You’ll have to hunt for that location in the adventure, but check for references in the Tower section or where the “you know what” is. Perhaps others can fill in the other blanks.

Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:35 am

Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:53 pm

thanks guys, great answers!

i was reading otis stats this morning (yeah, i should have read all the book before runing the adventure, but i prefere to read chapters and then run the chapters. maybe for the lack of spare time..well..), and it say that he is a 10 level ranger, a ranger knight.

but a ranger knight is 9 th level, and otis have amazing 100 hp!
for his constitution, and being level 9, he would have 80 hp plus 18 per cons., making 98hp

if he was 10 level, a ranger lord, then he would have 88 hp plus 2 hp per level, making 108 top.

now thats a lucky dice! Happy

Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:30 am

The ToEE game by Atari has one subplot whereby the traders are behind an effort to sabotage the construction of Rufus and Burne's castle (through an intermediary). One of the missions is to uncover a laborer who is working their will indirectly.

As for delays in large construction projects even if sabotage isnt involved, cmon! Anyone ever read about Boston's Big Dig? There could be labor shortages (notice the tents for the laborers from outside hommlet), there may have been a mistake laying the foundation, there could be shortages of stone and the right type of timber, one of the architects could have had a heart attack, there could have been an accidental fire that destroyed the scaffolding and lumber stores.

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:12 am

Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:58 am

It was common for all the NPCs to have "lucky dice" I guess to counterbalance the static nature of most adventures. Some of the early adventures even gave some pretty strange tactical advice for the NPCs.

As for the construction; medival construction was rarely constant. Construction often stopped during the spring planting, fall harvest and winter. Medival mortar took months to set - if it set wrong the whole section was torn down and redone. Except for some professional specialists most of the unskilled labour force would be local commoners.

Limited construction time: restricted to summer months
Unskilled and unmotivated workforce
Material Shortages
Possible worker revolts, accidents, mistakes, civil and noble upheaval, bandits, threat of war, corruption and shortage of funds - could cause serious delays.

Just watched a history program on the construction of Chartreuse Cathedral. Estimated build time 9-11 years - Actual build time 66 years.
Mortar mistakes - Lost time
2 peasant revolts over the demanding work schedule
1 noble attack over increased local taxes
3 master masons died
Bishop run out of funds various times - construction halted
Due to local noble turmoil construction material were seized
Quality stone was taken by local nobles to enchance local fortifications
Lack of strong leadership - project languished (5 Bishops before completion)

Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:48 am

Not that I need an excuse to browse through the 1e DMG.

Pg 215, Zombies are worth 20 + 2/hp in xp.

Damn, I could be stuck in this book reminiscing for hours. Cool

Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:47 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:45 am

hi guys, new one!

in this part
" Having just learned of the sharp
check dealt to Lolth in her plans to wreak
Evil, the Lady of Fungi agreed to accept luz
as an (almost) equal in the Temple."

what plans?
did this have to do with queen of spiders module?

other than that, why lareth is a human worshiper of a drow "godess" (demoness, or something)?

"Lareth the Beautiful is the dark hope of
chaotic evil—young, handsome, well
endowed in abilities and aptitudes, thoroughly
wicked, depraved, and capricious.
Whomever harms Lareth had best not brag
of it in the presence of one who will inform
the Demoness Lolth!"

i have a feeling that this a "rookie" question, but was there a reason that shows later?

Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:24 pm

Yes, it refers to the G-D series. The idea to run the super modules together came later.

When Gary started writing T1, there was no Zuggtmoy, Lolth was going to be the main demoness. He changed his plans after Q1 was released. Lareth really should be a cleric of Zuggtmoy. The Lolth referenced slipped through the editing.

Scott

Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:20 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:56 pm

Gary mentioned it a few times on message boards.
I also spent a lot of time talking to him about his original version of the ToEE, his version of the climax of the GD series, and the EEG.

Scott

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:02 pm

Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil took a very different point of view:

"In days past, when Lareth the Beautiful commanded the moathouse (the outpost for the Temple of Elemental Evil), both Zuggtmoy and Lolth believed him to be their priest—when really he served none other than the
Elder Elemental Eye (and Tharizdun)."

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:16 pm

Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:27 pm

Well the EEG was a part of Gygax's ToEE, but that section never made it to Frank Mentzer when he was given Gary's notes and told to finish it, but the EEG and Tharizdun were definitely not the same entity.

Scott

Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:46 am

things in hommlet are going fine!

the group is suspiciuos about :
-st. cuthbert church is imposing they religion over the Old Faith?
- why this Elmo guy keep traveling? if he can always be drunk, then he must have some talent with his merceneray skills.
-Zert (the evil fighter) have poisoned for talking too much while he was drunk. who did this..

and so on....man, theres plenty to do! thats the 4rth no-combat session in hommlet!

the question is :
-if some villagers know about "something is happening at the moathouse", why didnt they as to rufus, burne or even terjon to invetigate?

nobody cares about the "around" the villager cituation?

Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:03 am

My set up was that the villagers, for the most part, don’t know anything is going on at the Moathouse. The troops there have been careful to NOT raid in the area to avoid suspicion and detection.
Nobody is aware of anything specific, but somebody does mention the nearby ruins if the party asks the right questions.

Scott

Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:00 pm

Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:49 am

There's no problem. In most cases it shouldn't matter how the party learns, as long as they do learn.

Terjon may not be acting directly because he may not be sure yet. He may know something is there, but not what. Bandits, humanoids, etc. And if it is the ToEE, he wouldn't want to alert them that he knows, which would put them on a hightened state of alert, and harder to deal with. Anything like that, or whatever results in a good time.

Scott

Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:33 am

If memory serves me right, Elmo is faking his alcohol problem and secretly works for Verbobonc, keeping an eye on the goings and comings in and around Hommlet.

If the villagers do suspect there is something going on they probably would seek out Rufus and Burne to assist. However, both characters are "retired" adventurers; they've reached the point where they are quite happy with their position and wouldn't jeopardise that by direct action. They would probably be quite happy to encourage a group of like minded younger adventurers to investigate and could bolster them with some minor magical aid.

Terjon is truly out of his depth as Temple head; I believe he had a very low charisma score and was always worth avoiding in favour of his assistant, Calmer. The villagers would be unlikely to seek him out with their concerns.

Ostler, the innkeeper, played quite a major role in the version we ran; indeed he was pivotal in getting us to the Moathouse. He was one of those locals that had his finger on the pulse of village life and could sniff out trouble a mile off. Which is why he was Sergeant of the militia, I guess.

I can't remenber anything about Zert.

That's just my take on things, solely from memory so I could be wrong. It was a long time ago that I played in the module although I'm currently DM'ing the Return To....version so I've had to do a little research on the older version.

Good luck, Rossik.

Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:55 am

thanks both scott and ragr!

great ideas, i should use some.

(oh, in my game, zert is dead already, so no big deal about him ;))

Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:00 am

hi friends!

new questions:

1)
rufus and burne have arrived at hommlet 3 years ago.

they fought The Battle of Emridy Meadows, but that was like 10 years ago, right?

so, where they have been ?

2)
how do you guys had played them?

i made burne "cocky" (think thats the word...its like "full of himself" i guess) with the adventurers and a good story teller to the people. some of the elders keep an eye on him, but most people like him very much (Except the players).

rufus is silent, and i cant play him! i mean, its like if he lacks personality.

3)
the Viscount of Verbobonc paid for the st. cuthbert church AND the tower/keep for the rufus and burne?
if so, can i assume that terjon got earlier to hommlet than rufus and burne?

4)
at the moathouse. could anyone please look at the map of the moathouse? what is suppose to be the little marks opposed to the doors in rooms like 10, 14 and 15?

Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:09 am

Sat Oct 04, 2008 5:52 am

Somthing about Terjon is mentioned though. The temple of St. Cuthbert was in Hommlet before Terjon arrived. The reason Terjon was sent to run the temple in Hommlet was to replace the Canoness Idey, who had disappeared(yes, I know where she disappeared to Wink

).

Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:59 pm

please help me with this! (sure, as i never have asked for help before Laughing

)

where does the "Exit" from the Moathouse dungeon goes to?

Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:43 pm

It exits a little bit away from the moathouse at a cave so the horses can get in and out. Think of the Mouthouse as being Wayne Manor, and the secret exit as being how the Batmobile gets in and out of the Bat Cave. Happy

Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:40 am

Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:57 am

Simply read Area #32 and extrapolate the position of the tunnel exit relative to Maps 7 and 8. The exit tunnel is 400 feet long in total. The narrow opening at the end is of course big enough to allow horses to get in one at a time.

Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:40 pm

Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:08 am

with new games, comes new questions!

so, the heroes got beaten really bad, and decide to open ONE MORE door in the moathouse dungeon.

they came face to face with a guard, and he called for help and 12 more come to help. the heroes managed to scape, by casting illusions, scare, color spray and so.

now, they have one unconcious, two really bad, one good fighter, 2 mages with no spells left and two thieves. and they took a enjury guard as prisioner.

as they scape the dungeons, they are running to Nulb, and thats where the adventure ended .

What do you think would be the course of the following events?
Lareth would hunt them down or stay back? Should i attack them in the road? wait till they reach Nulb?

any ideas wil be very helpful!

Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:00 am

Pursuit by Lareth sounds good to me. he would want to keep word from getting out at this point I would think. It is something like 21 miles to Nulb so the party will probably have to stop for the night, depending on when they left the moathouse, on the way there unless they decide to push on through the night. If they stop for the night I'd have Lareth and his followers catch up to them on the road and attack. If they push on to Nulb have them attacked early in the morning before sunrise wherever they are staying.

Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:31 pm

Why are the PCs runnin to Nulb? They are fleeing form the Moathouse, yes? Hommlet is much closer. If they flee to Nulb or to hommelt, and stay upon a road, then yes, you should attack them on the road. If they are smart then they will get off of the road so as to hide from pursuit and rest up. In any case, Lareth and a sergent should take the two light warhorses and also take 6 guards with them(4 w/crossbows and 2 w/spears) should chase them. If any bugbears or ghouls have survived then include or or two of them as trackers as well. Lareth would not want his operation exposed, so he would hunt the PCs for all he is worth, but would still leave some of his forces behind so as not leave his base exposed should the PCs elude him and double back and attack the Moathouse while he is gone(though it sounds like the PCs are in no shape to do this). If Lareth does not find the PCs then he will certainly alert any agents he has in Hommlet or Nulb to keep an eye out fo them and to send a message to him as soon as the PCs are spotted. Then he would set up an ambush to take them out. If in Nulb, he might even be able to attack the PCs in their quarters should they be staying at Boatman's Tavern or the Waterside Hostel.

The PCs would be much safer in Hommlet of course, and so Lareth would choose to attack them at a location of his choosing- i.e. he would prepare a location for their return and gather whatever forces he had to strengthen himself and "assure victory". Likely he would choose a location where his numerically superior forces could atack the PCs from all sides, and not a hallway(like the one leading into his personal quarters) where PC fighters could not protect spellcasters from being meleed. Lareth should be animating some undead too(at least 10 HD worth, as he has two 3rd level spells available to him per day). Remember to give Lareth and his men as much preparation time as it takes the PCs to recover. They will be building barricades, casting spells, gathering any other forces available to them, etc.

Don't be out to simply obliterate the PCs, but don't play Lareth stupid either. He knows he is dealing with a group who has systematically wiped out nearly all of his resources at the Moathouse, so he will be wary of their abilities and be as well prepared to fight them as he can be. It should be a tough battle to take down Lareth when he is fully aware of(and fully prepared for) the PCs.

Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:44 am

thanks for the answers!

they are heading to Nulb because they have never been there, and they think that it is acttualy closer then hommlet.

silly them Laughing

i like the undead idea very much, is hould use it as so many other ideas. thanks guys, i will report what happend after :)

Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:27 am

im so addicted ot T1-4 (and im playing the Troika PC game...sooooooo cool! have read that Gary was consulted for this game, and the maps are awsome and very look like the book).

yesterday i was readin about Nulb, and something hit me: how is possible that Hruda (Murfles) is a old lady, and A ELF?

Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:21 am

A few possibilities hit me: (1) She's an elf disguised as an old lady, (2) She's a very, very old elf, (3) She's been withered by a magical curse, (4) She's a human or tallfellow halfling adopted by elves, and not really an elf at all, (5) She has human blood, not enough to make her a half-elf but enough to make her age in the human way, (6) All elves eventually age, (7) It's a typo, (8) She's a wood hag disguised as an elf, (9)She's a transsexual beholder disguised as an old lady disguised as an elf disguised as Mordenkainen.

Looking at the module, I'm pretty sure Murfles is just a regular, youthful-looking elf disguised as an old lady called Hruda. I don't think Canoness Y'dey is really old either (certainly not as old as she seems to be); both are just using make-up to disguise themselves, which is why they're using false names. Murfles isn't really Y'dey's daughter, either.

Otis, Murfles, and Y'dey are all disguised so that they can watch the activities of the Temple of Elemental Evil without drawing attention to themselves.

Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:01 pm

Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:55 pm

Murfles is indeed younger, an elf, and in disguise.
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Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:39 am

Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:49 am

When I ran ToEE using the 1e rules, my brother played a witch from Dragon #114 and she used candle magic(philter of love basically) to get a half-elf druid/mage in the party to fall madly in love with the hideously ugly "Murfles". Boy did that backfire. Now the half-elf druid/mage has a hot elven wife named Aeralandria. Laughing

ToEE was great fun to run for so many reasons.
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 2:51 pm

I find a simple explaination sometimes really throws some players.

Not everything has to be part of some deep dark convuluted plot.

Sometimes the answer is straight forward...

IIRC: a party got mugged and spent sessions trying to discover the "mastermind" behind it but it was simply a street mugging.

No vast conspiracy or dark motive beyond "give us your stuff". Wink