Anyone who's read the 1E PHB or 1E Unearthed Arcana will know that dwarves and elves generally regard each other with antipathy. I'm just curious as to if and how other DMs apply it in their own settings. This is a great place for Greyhawk to show how truly gray it is-since two of the most ubiquitous goodly races could view each other with at least cool, low-key hostility.
My own setting generally has dwarves and elves viewing each other with general distaste and a genuine dislike, with only grudging trading and military connections in places where circumstances dictate-if there is a strong common enemy, or if there is a market so strong it cannot be ignored.
An example of this would be in the defense of Sunndi and the hills and mountains around it. The dwarves of the Glorioles view elves with open contempt, but provide assistance to the elves of Sunndi and the Rieuwood anyway due to their common Aerdi enemy. Other than that, the dwarves are as happy to get involved in politicking and petty plots against the elves, and make deals with the Aerdi, as they are to make common cause. In return, the elves feel little remorse at hindering dwarven trade when and where they can, especially when it means cutting the dwarves off from the fabulous riches of Ahlissa.
Dwarves often fight their worst wars and conflicts with each other, and this was the case in the Hateful Wars. In fact, the worst threat to the allied war effort in the closing stages, by about 508-511 CY, was not the humanoids but the backstabbing, alliances, and manipulations carried on by some of the dwarven kings against neighbors that had suffered. These dwarves actively worked to hinder the elves of Celene, and in the modern era are the ones that work with renegade Keoish nobles in promoting the underground slave trade in the Sheldomar Valley. The dwarves of Ulek abhorred these barbaric actions, and so they were caught in an awkward position politically. The result is now that they are alienated from both the evil dwarves of the Lortmils and the elves of Celene, though they get on well with the elves of the Duchy of Ulek.
The only place where elves and dwarves can truly be said to act as friends is in Furyondy, Veluna, Highfolk and the eastern Yatils. The dwarves there are friendly, honest and jolly folk, and the elves of the southern Vesve Forest and Highfolk are considerably more genial and open-minded than their kin in the central and northern parts of the wood. They are all able to put their differences aside in the alliance of good they have forged with the Furyonds and Velunese against the evil in the north-continuing a conflict that has gone on for centuries...
I remember reading somewhere that the Antipathy comes from many, many centuries before humans had even began living in tribes yet. When the dwarven & Elven people met. The dwarves saw them as lazy (which was a bad start because of the dwarven way of work, work, work). Also the Elven way of life was peaceful, happy, and care free. The dwarves had been fighting orcs, goblins, and giants for centuries. They saw the elves as weak, stupid, and careless.
The Elves on the other hand saw them as barbaric, uncaring, and just too plain serious about EVERYTHING! So these different points of view to the way each other saw life started things off on the wrong foot to begin with.
But each race saw one another as generally good people. It was just a bad personallity clash at first. They slowly started trusting one another. Then through the years, battles came about where the elves would refuse to fight when the dwarves asks for troops. (Which we all know how long a dwarf holds a grudge!) Then the elves would need help, asks the dwarves for troops. The dwarves, being lawful, would send troops.But would send maybe 150 or so. Which insulted the Elves worse than not sending any at all. This went on for years and years. Dwarves pulling there numbers back in battles when they were getting the snot beat out of them, Blaming the Elves they could not hold there own in battle. The flank of an elvish unit getting smashed because of the fall back and so on and so on. Until they have got to a point they don't trust each other in certain situations. These folk live a long time and they don't forget or forgive easily.
My PC's have always played their Dwarves & Elves on just speaking terms until they have proven themselves worthy of the other respect. And it does, belive it or not, make very good role play watching the two paranoid demi-humans watching the other to see if they can handle the stress of one another being around.
This is what I can remember of the problems they have with each other. If anyone has a better view, Please write. I would love to hear others views on this.
While all the above reasons...namely differences in geographical enviroment does play a role the core reason I believe is the philosophical impact the long lifespans have on the races societies.
The Elven View
Elves have the longest lifespans and they view elven lives as precious, they take the long patient view of the world and see themselves as the only constant well other races are seen as grasping and short sighted. The elven society developed a pragmatic value to their lands and conflict, namely is the elven blood worth shedding for the goals of the conflict or can the enemy be outlasted without loss of life. The elves see this philosophy as the only wise course of action, the elven homelands given they are mostly woods can be defended better with defensive ambush tactics without the risk of elven armies in open battle. Even if a portion of their lands are lost in the fullness of time the younger races will tire become distracted and the lands recovered. After all, woods can be replanted and enviroment recovered elven lifes can not. Given this patient pragmatic view, the elves are always looking for the most return for the least risk and when the risk in their opinion outweighs the return better to cease the conflict. This attitude can work against the elves as they can lack aggression allowing their enemies a chance to recover instead of pressing home their victories. They view the dwarven possessive and combative attitude as squandering their long lives.
The Dwaven View
The dwarves have a different view, they don't have a wait and see attitude but rather a "let someone take from you once and you encourage others to do the same again" so they view any loss as a personal insult and a serious matter indeed. Dwarven enemies must be defeated or every local lord and bandit will be at your door. The dwarves scorn the elven attitude as self-defeating, foolish and out of touch with cold hard realities of the world.
Scenario A
The elves drive off an orc attack but fail to follow the orcs because of a possible orc ambush...too much risk better to wait and ambush the orcs another day (orcs are defeated). While the dwarven warband is much more likely to follow the orcs (could return) and if they are ambushed the dwarves are more likely to refuse to retreat unless outnumbered (if they retreat it will just encourage another ambush attempt).
Scenario B
An elven clan loses control of their woodland home to the orcs, the elves mourn their loss, despair over the felled trees and mount raids (properly planned) against the orcs but the elves will patiently wait until an opportunity presents itself to recover their homes (internal struggle, orcs seek further conquest etc.) if the chance takes time so be it sooner or later the lands will be recovered. A dwarf clan loses control of it's home to orcs, the dwarves launch several attacks and summon fellow dwaves to form a large army to bring matters to a head as soon as possible otherwise the orcs will fortify and launch new attacks.
Epilogue
The elves will be more concerned safeguarding elven lives rather than goods because even if it takes centuries they will return and rebuild and replant the spoiled homeland. The dwarves will not see the lives saved but brood on the loss of every item and every day after means for the dwarf, his ore that his enemies are mining, his food that they are eating, his weapons they are using,
sorry it's so long...hope it made sense
Last edited by Crag on Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:27 pm; edited 5 times in total
Very nice Crag. You gave a great insight to how each race would come to terms with the same problem facing them. Little things like that is what helps new gamers understand how the different races look at the world as a whole from one another. Good job!
Good Post Crag. Thanks. I would also think that reproductive rates would have a lot to do with it. In most tales, dwarves are not prolific, but compared to elves, they reproduce like mice.
Maybe LOTR started this idea, but it is certainly prominent.
You can derrive reproductive rates based on the info given in MMI. Yes, elves would be very concerned about loss of life. Sacrificing 1 elven life to kill 100 orcs is not a viable long term strategy.
In contrast the humanoids can throw bodies at a problem, get wiped out, and recover in a few years. Gnolls have an incredibly high breeding rate.
I had a long article about reproductive rates and racial attitudes that was hosted on The Citidel. Anyone know if that is still around in some form or another? _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Even with the elves fearing for the ability to continue their lineage the dwarves still have grounds to grumble about their inactions and thus continue to hold grudges.
Take the populations of the kingdoms of the Flanaess listed in the LGG and you get 27,921,630.
Of that number, 1,391,833 are elves, roughly 4.9% of the total population.
Now dwarves on the other hand only account for 680,934 of the total population or roughly 2.4%
Elves outnumber dwarves 2:1 and yet the dwarves continue to fight humanoids, etc. so of course the dwarves will regard the elves as pansy cowards.
And those figures do not take into account half-elves who number about 338,046 or roughly 1.2% of the population. Some who aid their full blooded elven kin in their efforts.
The dwarves continue to do what they feel they should, despite the grim outlook. While the elves seek to preserve their ways, despite what happens to others. So yup, they are going to clash.
Thanks for the information on population totals - I had no idea there were that many elves!
Even so, overall population does not matter so much as replacement rate.
Elves may have a higher population, but any elves killed cannot be replaced for centuries. Whereas dwarves that are killed will be replaced in decades. And orcs in a few months.
Say you have 10000 elves vs. 100 orcs. If, every generation, you march 90 of those orcs off to war and manage to kill an elf, wheile the rest stay home and breed back to 100, eventually they will be able to kill off all the elves. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
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