I need help. About a year ago I got back into D&D and I started running games again. The group of players that I was running for seemed eager and ready to go. They're a bit younger then the groups I've run for in the past and they seemed full of new ideas and ready for a challenge. A year later and I am watching them struggle with one another to be the top dog. Several times they've complained to me about the difficulty of the game but I don't feel that I am putting anything in the game that challenges them beyond what they are capable of would they stop bickering and actually work together. Campaign plot has been tossed aside at this point. I've actually reset the story a couple of times now. They cycle characters like its going out of style and recently I have prevented the most recent group of suicidal narcissists from coming back for several games after they did something incredibly bone headed and got themselves killed, the idea being if a smaller portion of the group can learn to work together and understand the benefits of actual team work they can form a power block and it will make the rest of the group gel better.
Of course it could just polarize them instead but there's a pretty big power level difference between the existing group and the other players when whey come back. The dead player group are the ones that are typically the worst about conflicting with one another but unfortunately they are the only tactical players in the group. The existing players are, I hate to say it, but they're mostly cowards that run from everything they see.
Any advice you guys could throw my way would be greatly appreciated.
I know that Dungeon and Dragon often had articles to address the issue of how a DM can encourage players to work together. I would site specific issues, but I'm not at home currently. If you have some back issues, you might try flipping through them, or referring to the Dungeon (issue #150) index that Paizo put out, or some of the online Dragon indexes.
You could try using a carrot - awarding an announced per-game session XP bonus to players that cooperate - since the stick (character death) does not appear to be working.
I know that Dungeon and Dragon often had articles to address the issue of how a DM can encourage players to work together. I would site specific issues, but I'm not at home currently. If you have some back issues, you might try flipping through them, or referring to the Dungeon (issue #150) index that Paizo put out, or some of the online Dragon indexes.
You could try using a carrot - awarding an announced per-game session XP bonus to players that cooperate - since the stick (character death) does not appear to be working.
Don
Not a bad idea on the XP award thing. I've given XP awards for finding ways of circumventing direct combat in favor of hit and run tactics and trap setting a couple of times before. I had labeled the XP award based on the actual tactic itself but attaching it directly as a "Team Work" bonus is an angle I hadn't considered before.
JohnD wrote:
I have to wonder if you are enjoying DMing for this particular group enough to care or try beyond what you've already done.
You know honestly there have been some points where I was ready to throw in the towel and call it quits but I like the individuals in the game and I mostly like the characters they create.
So far in this group I have seen a particularly mercantile druid whose Catch Phrase was something along the lines of "Just because I'm from the country they think I don't know the value of money".
A Necromancer trying to find a cure for Ghoul fever and undeath in general.
A rouge who was focusing his abilities towards Alchemy whose brother was a homicidal manic that was practically unstoppable by the rest of the party.
An insane rouge who babbled on incessantly about things that didn't make any sense so I started incorporating the weird carp that came out of her mouth into the game, thus turning inane gibberish into the gift of prophecy.
I Cleric of WeeJas that was a one man Judge Jury and Executioner for the wicked.
A Halfing rogue that insisted on setting up a campfire every nioght no matter where they where. This halfing also robbed everyone they met blind and eventually use the proceeds to purchase some very large brass balls.
A Monk with the Vow of Poverty who was trying to start his own "Kain from Kung-Fu' type order of wandering bad asses that right wrongs and give their shirts up to feed the homeless.
A ranger based off of south seas islanders who focused on grappling and was basically Turok. The fact that he literally had a bone through his nose was just icing on the cake.
So, while I am constantly frustrated by their inability to work together they have produced some really interesting characters. I would like to get them to the point that they can handle a real antagonist but at the moment they spend most of their time screwing each other over and trying to figure out how to make sure that the guy next to them can't kill them.
Maybe running into Tiamat will make them all work together.
Or maybe they respect someone enough to listen to his or her suggestions. Like a captain of a team does so the group can focus on the obsticals...unless your problem is that your expectation is that you provide the obsticles and their expectation is that all the other players are an easy means to gold and XP--doh!
Talk to them, I'll bet several of them are frustrated too. Figure out your players who are leaders (not their characters, but the players), and encourage them to be bold and to be decisive. Don't reward them with a beat down if they get a pair either. Let them run an easier time of it just for busting through. ("The guards are dumbfounded by your frontal assault. Ten of the 30 fall before anyone has a real chance to react. Roll Initiative.") Now don't always reward stupidity, but do reward boldness. If one player has a bold plan, and one player has a convoluted and ultimately pointless plan,: A) tell them and B) let the bold plan work at least a few times. And don't be afraid of the one time deal. "This one time they are surprised and you drop ten without expending a single spell. The next time you try something so brash it will fall to normal repercussions.
Maybe they need characters that are a bit less... individual? Try a one-shot advanture with them playing characters from the same town, tasked with defending the town, recovering the lost macguffing, or capturing the evil schoolmaster. Perhaps doing something in the way of "Sons of Katie Elder" where they play premade siblings coming together after years apart to attend their mother's funeral and find that she was rendered penniless by the local evil noble-type fellow, etc...
And, like MikelAmroni said, find the guys who have the leadership potential and push them a bit more.
You may also try some herioc short adventures and be blunt about it. I once told the party that "this adventure is going to be run like a fantasy book... You guys are the heroes and I expect you all to act like it". I noticed an overt change in their behaviour. It seemed that every time they hit a "fork in the road" during the adventure, one of the players would announce "but aren't we suppose to be the heroes?" It became an adventure of me/the monsters versus them and they became more concerned about my plotting than each others.
Most of my games, we make being heroic a stated goal, because of situations like yours. (That and I declare any PC being evil will become a NPC and start acting against the party - but that's a whole other discussion. :) )
Manus-nigrum,
I'm sorry to hear that you ended up having problems like this with the campaign. ... I wonder if this is the same campaign that you were talking about starting in October of last year?
Nevertheless, For one, I would agree with Fenreer. Maybe they need characters that are less individualistic. I would never want to put the kibosh on player creativity when it comes to PC generation, but perhaps giving them a reason to cooperate would make it work a little easier. Try having them all be from the same home town, and ask them for explanations of how they know each other. Or try Lord Percard's idea of specifically telling them thy are supposed to be heroes, and to act like it. The Age of Worms had a great bit on starting PCs from the same place and giving them motivations so that their characters will cooperate.
Another possibility is for you to assign their roles. Use NPCs to "hire" them seperately, but tell them they are all working together, and have each NPC tell them the specific part of the misssion that they have to achieve with the help of the other "operatives". Or maybe try this with fellow guild members, or guild recruiters. The PCs go to a friend/exert/NPC/what have you to get advice, and the NPC offers them ideas about how to best accomplish their goals. For example, the fighter goes to a weapon shop, and finds out that the proprietor used to fight in the local arena, and you can give them "in character" direction on how to fight better. Another example: the wizard goes to a local mages tower to learn a new spell and while he's there he strikes up a friendship with the unusually affable mage. He then gives him advice on using and aiming his area effect spells or getting better shots with his rays, or advice on buffing the party and cooperating with them and how to use them to defend himself. All the while, of course, this is just "in character direction" from the DM. TELL them what to do, but make it palatable through IC NPC RPing.
(Did I really just use all those aconyms?)
Those are all the more subtle ways. Another, more direct, method is to bring in a ringer. Bring in someone that you already know is a good roleplayer. Try asking other people that you know to come in for a few (or a dozen) game sessions and play. If you can pull in a really good gamer, have them show the other players directly how to make assault plans, or plan equipment to take with them, or how to fight tactically. you can even make it so that it's more of a "let me help you beat the DM" scenario. If you have someone like that, be sure they know that this is what they are doing, lest they ge dragged down by the party. Don't have them order the group around, or anything, but if they're a good gamer, they should know how to lead the group by suggestion, or by teamwork. It doesn't sound like you have a good leader inside the group you have, so bringing in one from the outside might be your answer.
Another possibility, but I have only used it sparingly, and I recommend using it with great caution... You can put the characters in a heavily regimented environment. They are in the local miltia, and they all have ranks, for example. That way there is a definate leader in charge and he gives orders, and everyone is expected to complete their own part of the mission. Or perhaps they're all ex-cons who served time together, and they were in a prison gang, or they're part of an Adventurer's Guild that specfies their positions. ... maybe it's a political thing, and they are bodyguards for someone ... maybe they have been affected by a geas that makes them behave in certain ways. Something that forces them to follow stringent guidelines that prescribe things they do. Forced cooperation, in a way. They have to do A, B & C in order to succeed. In any event, again, use his idea with extreme caution, because if it's not right for the players that you have, it can result in more player in-fighting, and possible IRL disputes if the chacters and/or players don't like being told what to do.
I'm really just typing off the top of my head, and brain-storming a little bit. I hope that some of my ideas help, or at least prompt ideas of your own on how to solve this very common, and yet very frustrating problem that you're having.
Another possibility, but I have only used it sparingly, and I recommend using it with great caution... You can put the characters in a heavily regimented environment.
I wasn't going to respond to this thread, because I don't think I'm particularly good at resolving messed up group dynamics, but I was thinking exactly the same thing as Icarus does here.
In my case, I was thinking how it might work to simplify the campaign into one focused on the arena, in which the players are gladiators. It reduces decision points to a relative minimum, and focuses their attention onto an immediate goal...surviving the next round!
There have been products over the years that go into detail about how one might string gladiatorial events together into a campaign game, the most recent example I'm aware of is a Dragon Magazine from about 6 months ago, one of the newfangled online ones.
A gladiatorial campaign can be quite fun, especially for players who like knocking heads, and is something I look forward to DMing again in the future.
I have to admit, I once played in a campaign of 12 players that were constantly backstabbing, plotting against, stealing from, & selling out each other.
When I joined the group I stayed out of the conflicts. I sat back and observed the other players. Shortly after joining the group I was voted party leader. Since I am ex-military, I ran the group like a military unit and even with 12 players, the group staightened up and functioned well.
So, I can attest to Incarus's suggestion, a regimented campaign can work.
The answer is even more simple than you think. Convert to 4e. Now that PHB2 is out it is possible to produce viable versions of characters from previous editions, although it is advisable to equalise the pc levels. For our pcs I let them loose with points buy with the restriction that they couldn raise or lower any one stat by more than one tier.
Anyway, our pcs were not particularly great at working tactically or cooperatively but in 4e it just... happened. The rules are designed to enourage it big time and if the warlord is augmenting you all the time you start helping him out. You start positioning the wizard to take out the minions and your fighter deliberatetly steps in to soak up damage. They've even addressed the problem of groups focusing damage on the high level leader at the back by beefing up leader hit points and adding in minions that are really easy to kill but dangerous if left running around.
Obviously, no edition is perfect but in this context, it all works surprisingly well.
Well first off Raymond, the Tiamat suggestion is ac tually my next plan. I am thinking about doing a one shot, 20th level game where the object is to kill a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. When I brought this idea up to them a year ago their response was that one single Great Wyrm can’t possibly be enough to handle a party of 20th Level characters and I believe that they still largely hold this belief.
In spite of the fact that they can’t handle a single Tiger at 4th level.
The problem is with the very thing that you suggest abiout having one person that they all respect. There is no one. Its all about #1.
MikelAmroni wrote:
Talk to them, I'll bet several of them are frustrated too. Figure out your players who are leaders (not their characters, but the players), and encourage them to be bold and to be decisive. Don't reward them with a beat down if they get a pair either. Let them run an easier time of it just for busting through. ("The guards are dumbfounded by your frontal assault. Ten of the 30 fall before anyone has a real chance to react. Roll Initiative.") Now don't always reward stupidity, but do reward boldness. If one player has a bold plan, and one player has a convoluted and ultimately pointless plan,: A) tell them and B) let the bold plan work at least a few times. And don't be afraid of the one time deal. "This one time they are surprised and you drop ten without expending a single spell. The next time you try something so brash it will fall to normal repercussions.
Just a thought
They are frustrated. Mostly because they can’t get the group to go along with what they want. There is no sense of unity in the group and they burn through characters like crazy. I mean I’ve played in games that characters that were cycled over and over again because of the diffilculty but I mostly just get lots of complaints about how I am not “Giving “ them enough magic items. Ignore the fact that I let them switch out prepared spells outside of combat and at no point has there been a character group that didn’t include at least one spell cast dispel magic, they have ignored almost everything I’ve puit in the game and passed over some really neat finds I included in the game because they just didn’t see it and didn’t think to cast anything. At one point I gave them a literal treasure trove of magical spears that were enchanted with Chill Touch but because they radiated a Necromantic aura they piled them up and burned them.
Just a quick aside for an explaination, the island they are on has lots of undead and I figured that would be a good thing for them to have.
Add to that the fact that the only strong leader in the party a lot of times uses them as chess pieces to keep himself from getting killed and hoards most of the few magic items that they do find.
Fenreer wrote:
Maybe they need characters that are a bit less... individual? Try a one-shot advanture with them playing characters from the same town, tasked with defending the town, recovering the lost macguffing, or capturing the evil schoolmaster. Perhaps doing something in the way of "Sons of Katie Elder" where they play premade siblings coming together after years apart to attend their mother's funeral and find that she was rendered penniless by the local evil noble-type fellow, etc...
And, like MikelAmroni said, find the guys who have the leadership potential and push them a bit more.
I like this idea and I just bought the movie on eBay. Although I already have a pretty neat idea about how I want to do it, I figure the movie can serve as a pretty good inspirational material. The evil school master idea has merit too but I’m not sure how I would work that at the moment.
I like the effort they put into the characters individuality, but individuality is no reason for being antisocial and hostile to the very people that are going to help keep your character alive. I try very hard to tailor my plotline to the characters in the game. If they say that they want to do something with a character I usually try and figure out a way to work it in as best I can. Most often this goes in the form of magical reasearch or building a guild or something but what ever they want to do I let them.
Lord_Percard wrote:
You may also try some herioc short adventures and be blunt about it. I once told the party that "this adventure is going to be run like a fantasy book... You guys are the heroes and I expect you all to act like it". I noticed an overt change in their behaviour. It seemed that every time they hit a "fork in the road" during the adventure, one of the players would announce "but aren't we suppose to be the heroes?" It became an adventure of me/the monsters versus them and they became more concerned about my plotting than each others.
Just one of my experiences.
In all the years of playing games I have never done this, nor have I ever had a DM use this method and honestly I don’t know why its never doned on me before but I’m going to give this a try. Most of the time I have used the carrot/stick method and in just about every other group I’ve run before its worked, but in this one they tend to ignore the beating they get with the stick except to complain about the diffilculty and then use the carrots as their own sticks to beat each other up with often completely ignoring antagonists.
Icarus wrote:
Manus-nigrum,
I'm sorry to hear that you ended up having problems like this with the campaign. ... I wonder if this is the same campaign that you were talking about starting in October of last year?
The very asame yes.
Icarus wrote:
Another possibility is for you to assign their roles. Use NPCs to "hire" them seperately, but tell them they are all working together, and have each NPC tell them the specific part of the misssion that they have to achieve with the help of the other "operatives". Or maybe try this with fellow guild members, or guild recruiters. The PCs go to a friend/exert/NPC/what have you to get advice, and the NPC offers them ideas about how to best accomplish their goals. For example, the fighter goes to a weapon shop, and finds out that the proprietor used to fight in the local arena, and you can give them "in character" direction on how to fight better. Another example: the wizard goes to a local mages tower to learn a new spell and while he's there he strikes up a friendship with the unusually affable mage. He then gives him advice on using and aiming his area effect spells or getting better shots with his rays, or advice on buffing the party and cooperating with them and how to use them to defend himself. All the while, of course, this is just "in character direction" from the DM. TELL them what to do, but make it palatable through IC NPC RPing….
…Another possibility, but I have only used it sparingly, and I recommend using it with great caution... You can put the characters in a heavily regimented environment. They are in the local miltia, and they all have ranks, for example. That way there is a definate leader in charge and he gives orders, and everyone is expected to complete their own part of the mission. Or perhaps they're all ex-cons who served time together, and they were in a prison gang, or they're part of an Adventurer's Guild that specfies their positions. ... maybe it's a political thing, and they are bodyguards for someone ... maybe they have been affected by a geas that makes them behave in certain ways. Something that forces them to follow stringent guidelines that prescribe things they do. Forced cooperation, in a way. They have to do A, B & C in order to succeed. In any event, again, use his idea with extreme caution, because if it's not right for the players that you have, it can result in more player in-fighting, and possible IRL disputes if the chacters and/or players don't like being told what to do.
[Edited for spelling and clarity]
[/quote]
This is somewhat what I was planning on for the next campeign I run, should I choose to run another one for this group. I have been billing this as the Paladin game. The idea would be that everyone plays a 1srt level Paladin who are the retainers of a higher level (like 6th or 7th, nothing obscene) Paladin who is a Sgt. In the Knighthood that they all belong to. Each player would be given the ability to multiclass in one other class, basically something in line with an Army MOS. After some intial forays against the enemy, I am thinking Iuz for this one, they would be given a bit more autonomy and sent on what are basically seek and destroy missions into enemy territory.
nematode wrote:
In my case, I was thinking how it might work to simplify the campaign into one focused on the arena, in which the players are gladiators. It reduces decision points to a relative minimum, and focuses their attention onto an immediate goal...surviving the next round!
There have been products over the years that go into detail about how one might string gladiatorial events together into a campaign game, the most recent example I'm aware of is a Dragon Magazine from about 6 months ago, one of the newfangled online ones.
A gladiatorial campaign can be quite fun, especially for players who like knocking heads, and is something I look forward to DMing again in the future.
nematode
Do it:!: A played in a gladiator game a friend of mine ran years ago based on Mortal Kombat (set in Dark Sun) and it was tons of fun.
Lord_Percard wrote:
I have to admit, I once played in a campaign of 12 players that were constantly backstabbing, plotting against, stealing from, & selling out each other.
When I joined the group I stayed out of the conflicts. I sat back and observed the other players. Shortly after joining the group I was voted party leader. Since I am ex-military, I ran the group like a military unit and even with 12 players, the group staightened up and functioned well.
So, I can attest to Incarus's suggestion, a regimented campaign can work.
LoL, Tragically the one player that is ex-military in my group is actually the worst about screwing people over and he is the caustic leader I was refering to earlier.
And yes, I have considered converting to 4e. I have also been working on a conversion system for Chaosium BRP that6 is coming along rather nicely as well.
By the way, you guys have thrown out a lot of really good ideas and have been a lot of help. I look forward to seeing what I can implement in the short term, my next game is tomorrow, and what I can put together for a long term campeign.
I've started running a AoW campaign based on the premise that the NPC is a prince who wants to adventure and attain Paladinhood. Even though he's 3rd in line for the throne, the Queen was not about to let her "baby" run off alone, and has requested (ordered) several military units in the contry to send their most promising young soldiers to the Capital, where they were assigned orders to "obey the Prince, but mainly keep him alive".
So far so good, everyone is enjoying the game so far, and even though they all have ranks, with the exception of the wizard who's in his own order, no one has abused his power because the prince can promote, demote, or present awards as he sees fit and everyone is bucking for promotion, The rank structure consists of a captain (NPC), a Sgt (the cleric, the prince's spiritual advisor), a lance corpral (the fighter and the prince's main bodyguard) which in this campaign outranks a corpral, and two corprals (a scout, who is also the spymaster, and a bard who is the herald and quartermaster0. The wizard has a rank of novice within his order, but is outside of the regular rank structure.
If all goes well, by the end of the campaign the group should consist of a Commander (NPC), a Lieutenant (cleric), Ensign (bard), Sgt Major (fighter), and Master Sgt (Scout). Of course this is all dependant on how well the group role-plays their positions.
I have as many tie ins between characters and the campaign as I can.
Each character has 3 contacts, one of them will also be another characters contact.
When players say 'here is my character' I say cool what is his/her reason to be in this region and adventure? If they have no idea then I can throw some them suggestions, but whatever we agree on will be written down or the adventure won't start.
I don't mind if characters don't act like best buddies, but I do want some basic comradery once they have fought enemies together a few times, it's instinctual IMO.
Exp awards for cooperation, roleplaying and 'cool stuff' (like if a mage would die from a fireball and the fighter asks to use an fate/action point) to save leap infront to him)
I say at the start of every campaign "Do Not go anywhere on your own" it is a fantasy world with nasty creatures who are just waiting for you too stray. Then if they do to push their luck I have them knocked unco during the fight and their possessions taken.
You do not have to kill characters to keep them inline, you can take their gear, teleport them, imprison them etc.
A common threat also helps people band together, a recurring villan than runs off after sending his minions in. Then does it again. And again. I've seen players thump the table and say it's That Guy! again!!!"
I also say at the start of every third session, I don't care if you change your characters/the parties goals/motivation, just find ways in-game/in character to do it together, otherwise you effectively write your character out of the campaign. If players as a group want a shift in campaign direction and style that is fine, but do it through a series of events in game.
If players show little interest in the proposed mission, ask the players why? maybe you need to throw some ideas their way as to why their characters would do it, or change the NPC offer in game.
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